Old Software or Open Source?

Pakled writes "I teach a high school multimedia course. We were scheduled to get new software this year but due to several pointy haired bosses, no software was ordered. The software I have to teach is Flash 5, Dreamweaver 2000, Photoshop 7 and (god help me) Movie Maker. The question is: is it better to teach old commercial software or their open source counterparts (Komposer, Gimp, etc.)? Is the steep learning curve and slightly less uniform design worth a little student frustration to teach them software written in the past 5 years?"

Comments

Either/Or

[s_clarke1]

In my opinion, a gathering of both would be far better... I mean, realistically in the commercial world, it tends to be the "high flyers" which companies go for, (Photoshop, Flash etc) however, teaching students the opensrouce alternatives, gives them a better feel for newer software, and shows them how adaptions have been made.

Suggestion

[scubamage]

Well, is a little of both an option? For some of them at least. Flash 5 is almost a completely different program from the modern versions of flash, the actionscript has changed almost entirely, and the layout is very different. The other legacy programs still have *some* semebelence to their newer versions, so letting them get their feet wet might be a good idea. However, you can present it in a way "this is what photoshop looked like a couple years ago and it still looks pretty similar. Due to restrictions we can't show you a current copy, however here is a free alternative called gimp that can do all of the same things, and you can play with it at home!"

Depends on what you're trying to do...

[garcia]

The question is: is it better to teach old commercial software or their open source counterparts (Komposer, Gimp, etc.)?

What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to teach them design or are you trying to train them in the use of software programs to accomplish any old goal?

If you're trying to teach them design principles in general, then I don't see what the difference is between outdated commercial software and their OSS counterparts. If you're trying to teach them to use software skills in software packages they are likely to see in the real world/college after graduation then that's not the best way to go about it.

If you're trying to teach both, I really don't know what to tell you. Probably retool a bit to put more emphasis on the design part and less on the use of specific software. Design skills change but not like specific software needs.

Good luck.

Re:Depends on what you're trying to do...

[AmaDaden]

I think the key is that he/she is trying to teach. I just recently graduated from college and had to use A LOT of very expensive impressive software. I would have loved to do some of it from home and to continue to learn about things on my own. But I was not going to spend $1000 to play with some software. So the result? I STOPPED LEARNING THAT STUFF. Go for things the kids can continue to learn from on their own. Plus when working on my own I've gotten better (and free) help on Open Source stuff then on other types of software. So unless you plan to be their only teacher on the subject, use as much Open Source as you can. Only if you cant find an Open Source version should you use the pay for stuff.

Concepts

[kevin_conaway]

Use whatever software allows you to teach the concepts to your students in the easiest manner. The tools change much faster than the concepts so don't fret too much about which tool to use. Whichever one is easier for you to use and teach with, use that

doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

it doesn't matter, just don't teach them the program, but teach them what the program does.
It doesn't matter if its gimp or photoshop, just as long as you know what the diffrent between ansharpen mask, blur and gaussian blur is.

Both...

[Bert64]

It's probably worth teaching the students on a selection of software, concentrating on "how to get stuff done" rather than on what particular apps to use.

People who were only taught a single app for a single purpose often have problems adjusting to other programs, they don't understand what features to look for but rather just where to look for them which ofcourse falls over if the software changes, even between different versions of the same application.

It's also worth considering, even if you teach the most up to date and widely used software today... A lot can change very quickly in software, the apps you teach may not be used anymore when your students go out into the world of work, or there may be much newer versions in use. Conversely, many companies keep using even older versions of apps because they still get the job done.

So basically teach the widest selection of apps you can, explain the differences and similarities and focus on the job that needs doing rather than the tools for doing it. Also for anything that is open/free provide your students with a copy of it so they can take it home.

Teach the commercial software

[joshv]

Oh come on. Is PS7 really that different than more recent versions? Not really. Better to teach them on old commercially viable software, where there is a real market for the skillset. Very very few people get hired for their skills with the Gimp.

Principles

[TheMeuge]

How about teaching your students the principles of what they are going to do, so that (with some acclimatization) they can adapt to any software within the category you've taught.

For instance, as far as image editing is concerned, it would be nice to talk about brushes and layers, and filters, all the while showing that while different software can have various options, located in various menus, the work can be accomplished on either, as long as the person knows exactly what they are trying to do.

That way, your students would be more than just click-monkeys, who know little more than what sequence of buttons to push according to a flowchart.

Because otherwise they will wind up like our Pathology department administrator who, when I suggested that to save the school tens of thousands of dollars a year they should use OpenOffice and discontinue the MSOffice site license, turned to me and asked: "But without MSOffice, how will our people do any work?"

Re:What on earth is the point

[smittyoneeach]

Which is more important, the pen, or the thought driving it?
Why not teach students how

• to think along procedural and functional lines
• to consider the information in the abstract
• to decompose the system and troubleshoot the gazintas and the gazoutas
• to RTFM and search the web when the politician hits the fan
• to calmly view ideas that one finds objectionable (Creationism, proprietary licensing)
• to implement sound practices (version control, unit testing)

Binding the conversation to specific software versions seems a cop-out.

Re:Teaching Graphic Design

[geekoid]

A person who understands theory can figure out anything. A person who learns how to click a specific button in a specific place is useless.
It's not a vocational school, so don't teach to a vocation.

Consider This

[sherriw]

Since you are talking about highschool and not college, I'd say go with the open source option and touch on the older versions of the commercial software. Here's why...

-If they find that they enjoy what you are teaching, knowing an open source (and FREE) software tool will make it easy for them to continue tinkering with it at home. They can download the same tool they used in the classroom and continue to hone their skills at home if that really is their area of interest/career path. In the end, it's their eye and talent as an artist that will determine if their career at this early stage, learning the software is secondary. Practice is key. Chances are a student can't afford a legal copy of Photoshop for their home computer.

-Odds are that it will be a few years before they get into the working world anyway, so even if the school board gave you the latest versions of the commercial software, chances are that what they end up using in the working world will be several versions in the future anyway.

- Once you've learned one tool, it's usually easy to learn another of the same type. Like learning programming languages. Once you have the basics, the icons for the tools and the menus are trivial.

- Many artists do freelance work when they are first trying to break into the graphic design/art world. Knowing a free tool will keep their costs down.

- It will help support the free/open source software movement, and make them aware of the wide variety of awesome free/open apps available to them.

- Many employers even if they provide a commercial graphics program, will allow you to install and use your own preferred tool if it's free/legal/legit/compatible.

- Giving them an additional taste of the old version commercial software you have will mean they've been exposed to two different tools- an advantage in the long run. Choice is good.

Stop encouraging piracy.

[Average]

Yes, the percentage of your class that will be in the industry will be using Photoshop and Dreamweaver (although those programs will be totally different in 5 years).

But, I think you're better off encouraging students' curiosity for use *at home*. Which would you rather hire to use Photoshop, someone who's spent 100 hours using Photoshop 5 in a classroom a several years ago, or someone who's played with everything in GIMP for 600+ hours, built some webpages, entered some silly photo-editing contests, etc, and is still using it?

In reality, of course, if you subtly imply that Photoshop is the only way to go, they'll just pirate it to work at home. This is pernicious. I'm betting 'moral education' is a part of your school's mission statement. Live it.

Teach students to use Open Source software. Hand out discs with the PortableApps files. Accept ODF/RTF/TXT/PDF files as well as DOC.

Wake up

[krog]

Your students are far better off using tools that people used 8 years ago, than tools that no one uses today.

In particular, anyone who suggests using the GIMP over any moderately recent version of Photoshop for serious work should be sacked, tarred, feathered and shipped to Guantanamo. Photoshop 7 is light years ahead of GIMP today, and I will bet anyone here $5 that it's way ahead of where GIMP will be in ten years. (GIMP will then be twice as old, and if it's twice as good then it will still suck rod.)

Dreamweaver and Flash are also non-negotiable components of any web authoring introduction.

The students who are good candidates for open-source software will usually find their own way there. Don't force them to use OSS tools which are practically assured of leaving a bad taste in their mouths.

Re:Wake up

[PitaBred]

$5? Wow, you certainly are sure of your convictions.

Just because you don't like GIMP doesn't mean that it's useless. I find it easier to use than Photoshop. The only problem with it is if you think the Windows way of thinking is the only way to think. But hey, that's what schools are for, right, teach kids what to do, rather than how to think.

Re:Wake up

[TheRaven64]

I agree with much of what you say, but disagree with the conclusions. If you do not expose your students to tools they are likely to be using in the workplace, you are likely to do them a disservice, but it depends a lot on how long it will be until the use them professionally. What age does high school start? In the USA, I believe it's age 14. Assuming the students then go on to do a degree (typically 4 years in the USA) then they will be 22 by the time they are looking for a job. Eight years is a long time in software. There is about the same difference between the office apps I was taught at age 14 and OpenOffice as there is between them and Microsoft Office. I was taught Paint Shop Pro (3, I think) at school and it has about as much in common with The GIMP as it does with a recent Photoshop.

Teaching two or more tools will put students in much better position to learn new tools later. If they understand what they are doing, rather than how the tool is used, then they will be much better able to adjust later.

Dreamweaver and Flash are also non-negotiable components of any web authoring introduction. Remember, this is high school, not a vocational college. An understanding of HTML would serve them a lot better than using any WYSIWYG tool, particularly an understanding of the CSS box model. The tools change, but the basic assumptions remain valid. I was taught some WYWIWYG tool that no longer exists, but I was also taught the basics of SGML. Guess which I've found more useful.

Re:Wake up

[krog]

GIMP has certainly advanced over the years, but retains a fundamental brokenness of UI design. If the UI were fed into a chipper-shredder and some good human interface designers stepped in, GIMP might well roll over Photoshop, or at least come to be considered a legitimate alternative to Photoshop, rather than a Photoshopalike For Zealots.

Re:Wake up

[raddan]

Part of the problem is that very few professional designers (e.g., print designers) are also cognizant enough about software design to explain to a GIMP developer what the problems are. I am only vaguely aware of some of these issues; my main problem wihth the GIMP boils down to palettes not being truly floating. I can live with the right-click-to-do-anything mode. But designers need to do some additional things: full control of color space (RAW, CMYK, spot colors), they need color space histograms, they need to be able to easily produce color separations, they need to be able to easily put together batch transformations, they need some sophisticated marquis tools, they need to be able to mix raster and vector art, have access to Postscript, TrueType, and now OpenType fonts, and so on. I do not know if these things are available in the GIMP, because I am not a designer, nor do I regularly use the GIMP. But that's just to point out that designers do need specialized tools.

Also-- the GIMP is ugly to these people. As a programmer, I find certain elements very elegant. Most designers couldn't care less that you can write GIMP plugins in Perl; they're irritated that when they double-click on an image in InDesign, it doesn't automatically come up for editing in the GIMP. Some of these issues are petty-- but in my experience, designers tend to work in a more immediate-feeling, less rational domain. Appearance is important-- after all, they're paid because they have a highly developed aesthetic sense. Programmers are so horrendously square to many of them.

Adobe's stuff is expensive, and in many cases overrated, but they have indeed put a lot of thought into the workflow (e.g., integration between DTP app and photo editor) and appearance, and for a lot of people, this is all that matters. These facts combined with certain mailing list posts that lead me to believe that some GIMP developers suffer from a bit of a 'high horse' syndrome lead me to believe that this is why GIMP is not universally accepted, despite the fact that it is a highly capable application.

Re:Wake up

[lifebouy]

I gotta say, as a professional, Gimp is not there yet. It's not photoshop, and it's not close. I'm a big supporter of Gimp. I use it all the time. I use it because it's Free. But Photoshop is simply better, from a usability standpoint. It's not that I cannot do in the Gimp what I can do in Photoshop, because for the most part I can. It's that the Gimp is not as intuitive as Photoshop. As a consequence, getting things done is much slower in the Gimp, generally speaking. On top of that, there's always something wrong with the Gimp. I've never had it Just Work(TM), not under windows, not under linux. Now, I've been using them almost equally (I've actually used the Gimp more, honestly) for at least 7 years, and Gimp for longer than that. So I'm not just coming out of left field.
The main two issues with the Gimp are that the various windows not in a single container (Yeah, GimpShop. It sucks, too) and the lack of a good layer system. Nested layers and layer folders are a must, no room for debate. Acting on multiple layers is inconsistent, and that most definitely is unacceptable. For any aspect of the Gimp, as soon as you find yourself fighting the interface, the interface is broken and needs to be fixed. I find myself constantly fighting the window sizes, and constantly find myself looking for pieces of the interface that dropped behind another window. That sucks, and is bad design. I know it's a Unix-ism. But it's still bad design.
Having said all that, let me just say I love the Gimp, and kudos to all who have worked to make it what it is. Which is pretty awesome, but not good enough for professional design, considering the competition.

Well I'll be hard pressed

[tepples]

Gimp clearly cannot compare with Photoshop, and you'd be hard pressed to find Gimp in any professional office.

Well I'll be haarrd-pressed![1] I work for a small business, and I use GIMP to prepare product images for the web store.

[1] Said in the tone of "Well I'll be dog-gone!"

Re:Wow shortest Ask Slashdot ever.

[notaspunkymonkey]

Having been modded as redundant I feel need to elaborate. (Sorry was in a strange rush to get my first ever first post) We are talking about high school children now - and as such the emphasis is surely on the do's and don't of good graphic design, its about teaching kids good techniques, and style. This in my opinion is best performed using tools which are freely available to the children so that they can go away and practice what they have been taught. Using the latest version of Photoshop is likely to hinder their ability to practice as not many highschool kids in my experiance have the money to drop on the latest and greatest Adobe produce, sure they can go and download a copy from a torrent site - but is this something which we should encourage, all be it indirectly. If you use GIMP and the other Open Source software which are freely available, they can practice techniques and gain a good insight into the design - before they go on and perfect those skills in higher education. Where they may have the budget to purchase the latest over priced packages.

Re:Teaching Graphic Design

[Rob the Bold]

A person who understands theory can figure out anything. A person who learns how to click a specific button in a specific place is useless. It's not a vocational school, so don't teach to a vocation.

Exactly. I was about to say about the same thing. The original question seems to imply -- and by "seems to imply" I really mean "states clearly" -- that the class in question is a high school multimedia class. There are a lot of commenters saying that these kids won't be ready to earn a living as web designers, graphic artists and video editors with the skills they learn if they don't get "trained" on the right software. But I suspect that the majority of them will not actually pursue such a career, and those who do will go on to additional schooling before looking for a job. Additionaly, learning FOSS software would be very helpful for those that don't, since your average amateur dabbler can't afford/justify the costs of professional software just for an avocation.

Dept of redundancy department

[sm62704]

Having been modded as redundant I feel need to elaborate

That was priceless! Thanks, you made my day! As to your point, I agree completely. What's wrong with pencils and rulers? The newest software will be out of date by the time these kids get out of college.

All a REAL artist needs is mud and a stick, and he can do without either in a pinch. You have to learn to see before you can learn to render.

-mcgrew

Simple question with a simple answer

[DaveV1.0]

Ask yourself this:

When the student is able to make the leap to the new software, what will be easier for the student to make the transition from?

Which will be the easier transition: Photoshop 7 to Photoshop CS3, or GIMP to Photoshop CS3?

If the answer is the old version of the commercial software, then you should teach the old version of the commercial software.

Not as straight forward...

[xtracto]

NO. My answer is NO. Do not teach DreamWeaver 5, or Quanta or NVu or Photoshop or GIMP. Do not do it, STOP doing it.

What you should do instead is to teach about web developing (HTML, etc), image manipulation, etc. If you teach only how to press x or y button you will be robbing the students because when the next version of X program goes out they wont do how to achieve that misterious effect the teacher shown them how to achieve which made the picture look better.

You do not need to teach them the science of what they are doing (i.e., no need for an extensive programming class, just HTML and the basics of web design). But you could very well teach them the concepts and apply the conecpts in your "old" propietary software and the "new" open source. In that way, they will be able to onder the benefits and disbenefits of each tool.

Re:Wow shortest Ask Slashdot ever.

[claytonjr]

I think the purpose of high school is to prepare young adults for the so called real world. That being said, I would recommend using Photoshop. It would be a real disappointment to know that you taught the kids all about GIMP, but they could not take their GIMP skills to the local web design company.

However, I think it is also wise to teach diversity. I would recommend also teaching GIMP and maybe a few other software packages, for the purpose of literacy for many different graphics packages available.

Re:Wow shortest Ask Slashdot ever.

[nuelo]

You are talking about high school here? This isn't a College prep course for the "real world". They aren't going to get a job at a high paying graphic design firm right out of 12th grade! Come on! Just use what you have and if you want to introduce the free tools as well - go ahead. PhotoShop is a highly specialized tool used by professionals IN THE FEILD. If they want to learn PhotoShop they should have to take a corporate course or graphic design college.
Besides that fact, Whether you do get PhotoShop CS3 or not, in 4 years when they start looking for a job it will be obsolete anyway. The only difference between PhotoShop 7 and CS2 is a couple more features to convert it to bloatware and THAT'S IT! Say thank you that you even have those older programs. Students in Africa and Asia struggle to find a computer running Windows 95!!!

Re:Wow shortest Ask Slashdot ever.

[aonaran]

There is a lot to be learned about the GIMP that also applies to Photoshop. ...and these in my opinion are the skills they ought to be learning. Learn how to use layers, masks, channels, the pen tool, not which keyboard shortcut does what (you can change those anyway, this isn't 1987).

Besides, they can't take just a high school diploma to most design firms anyway, they are only just learning the basics, and design concepts that you could apply with paint and construction paper if needed. The high level nitty gritty details of how to smooth one's workflow by learning the specifics of a certain version of software isn't something they really need to worry about at this stage.

Besides, by the time they are finished their education CS3 will be just as outdated as PS7 is now, so there is no real advantage to upgrading when the features they'd gain aren't really what they should be concentrating on anyway.

Use the GIMP or use PS7 it doesn't matter really, they both have the features the kids need, but I am with the others who say using the GIMP in the classroom makes it easier for the kids to get and use the same software at home.

Re:Wow shortest Ask Slashdot ever.

[thoughtlover]

"You are talking about high school here? This isn't a College prep course for the "real world". They aren't going to get a job at a high paying graphic design firm right out of 12th grade! Come on!"

Actually, you are horribly wrong. Anyone can get a job in the creative field, even with little or no 'academic or professional experience'. Why? Because if your portfolio is f#*&ing kick-ass, any company will see that and hire that person, period. I know several people that have tons of experience, but their portfolios stink. Thus, that's probably why they're having problems getting a job in the field they studied in. I was having the same problem, so I reworked my portfolio, added some newly-created content and I finally got a job in the field I studied to work in. One of the better artists that is in our department was hired fresh out of high school, so, I'd say you're completely wrong.