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Microsoft Wants OLPC System to Run Windows XP
Stony Stevenson passed us a link to an IT News story about Microsoft's recent request that the folks behind the XO laptop redesign it to suit their needs. The company now wants to be able to run Windows XP on the highly-publicized and inexpensive portable. "Microsoft general manager ... Utzschneider says a shrunken version of Windows XP could potentially run on 2 Gbytes of flash memory. The XO, however, can only hold 1 Gbyte. As a result, Microsoft wants the XO's designers to add a slot through which more memory can be added via a secure digital (SD) card, Utzschneider said. Microsoft's renewed interest in participating in OLPC might be viewed by skeptics as an admission that a rival offering for developing markets called Classmate — which uses an Intel processor on Microsoft software — has failed to catch on."
Ahhh, good old arrogance. Is there ever an opportunity for Microsoft to be arrogant that they won't pass up?
Negroponte might be ok with Microsoft's involvement, but unless they're willing to give it all away for free, OLPC can't actually afford it.
also, don't you love it when people who go out of their way to ruin a party decide it's ok for them to attend when no one shows up to theirs?
http://www.xkcd.com/354/
Microsoft will want Windows to run on any hardware they aren't actively trying to kill - it spreads their monopoly. If the OLPC project succeeds, it shifts from being a competitor to kill to a platform to run on.
They are probable horrified because if all the kids grow up on linux they will prefer linux in the future. I know I use windows more because that is what I learned when I was younger and so it is less work to get adjusted to the next version.
One more thing to break, probably (including a 2GB SD card) a $40-$50 increase in cost per machine, for what advantage?
Given the nature of the machine, I don't see why MS should have any trouble shrinking XP to under 1GB.
Anyway, what help has MS given to the project and/or what help are they offering to make this request even remotely worth the consideration of the XO project?
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
Let's say there was the capacity to add another gig of flash, and XP could run on it. How much educational software would then fit in the machine? How much development tools would fit for the kids to develop apps (I'm thinking specifically of the capabilities Squeak/EToys gives the XO here)? How secure would the grid computing model be?
I think Microsoft are looking at XO as a low cost laptop instead of as a delivery platform for education and collaboration.
Then I guess I'm a "purist" on this one. An internal SD slot would be nice, but then so would a Core 2 Duo... you have to draw the line and when you're shooting for $100 you have to draw it very soon. I don't think the OLPC will succeed by conforming to Wintel; by definition, if Microsoft really understood this niche, it wouldn't exist for OLPC to fill!
Such a project was no priority until Negroponte and others made OLPC come to the fore.
Too bad that back around '96 we only heard fudware/vaporware from the likes of and from ms when others kept demanding smaller windows footprint in disk space, RAM, and other resources. When competition fell and died, ms never really followed through.
Now, with virtualization (WINE, Win4Lin, VMWare, Virtual Box, Bochs, et al), numerous terminal setups, kiosk modes, a besieging amount of Open Source software, populous countries with attractive budgets, and other factors make ms just go into me-too, and copy-cat mode, innovation being just a buzzword to check off on marketing brochures and bandy in conventions.
Now, if only Open Source developers would somehow garner the attention of human interface design and make thinks vastly more polished and less rickety/designed-for-the-nerdgineer, and if people like myself (non-developers) could make use of Eclipse, Glade, Trolltech's software, and things like that, we could spark a whole new renaissance of non-ms stuff that could level the playing field.
How dare ms try to push manufacturers to add more than Linux requires to get OLPC out there. This is just to dick up the manufacturing process to delay boxes otherwise slated for OLPC assembly and deployment, at least as I see it...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Luckily Mr. Negroponte is an intelligent man who is not interested in profits, but in doing the right thing, and can happily tell them to fuck the hell off.
That's what I'd do anyway.
Who in the right mind would try to educate young kids about computers while using Windows?
Yes, a lot of us new geeks started on Windows, but as soon as we got to "know Unix" we jumped that crappy ship and never looked back.
GNU/Linux and FOSS are the way of the future. It's like p2p networks and RIAA. You can't magically stop the spread of open knowledge.
Negroponte will give them a stable and innovative learning platform that will benefit both their computing skills and more importantly their general education and knowledge.
Just the other day I thought about making a bumper sticker or a shirt that says "Microsoft is the reason you suck at computers."
(I've just trademarked that.) (Or is it copyrighted? WTH, I'll do both.)
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
So, Microsoft wants the XO to run their operating system? Are they willing to release the source code to Windows XP *and* let kids rewrite it??
This isn't merely Microsoft wanting to change one little hardware spec. The ramifications are that the laptops will probably require more power to run that extra SD slot; the laptop will cost more for the redesign, re-molding, extra parts; the whole philosophy of the software will change and the kid's desire to explore and tinker stifled. I don't think Microsoft cares beyond a "developing countries == potential market" attitude...
p.s. If you want to buy an XO, that's also the link: http://www.laptopgiving.org/
Windows is actively damaging to a child's education. It's like teaching children creationism instead of evolution. Windows encourages a poor mental model of computation, right from its inappropriate file system metaphors up to its "piracy is bad" and DRM crap, and lack of exposed internals (the OLPC with it's Python UI allows hackery of the interface by the smarter kids). C
Copyright law is a great evil in society, and it's important that children are taught to question it. Windows won't do that.
Of course they did. Since it comes with the operating system, you pay for it when you purchase the OS.
If they gave IE away for free, I could legally download it and install it under Wine. But I can't legally do that. You have to have a copy of MS-Windows, which means you're really just getting an upgraded component (web browser) of the OS.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
I think the hackability of the OLPC will be precisely what makes it interesting to use. Ultimately, in all other ways, it should be used to replace books. There's a great deal of value in putting pen to paper in that for many, it also puts pen to mind in a more indelible fashion. But the hackability aspect will give greater ability for young minds to learn and create processes as well as learning to create and engineer a bit with objects. These principles go well beyond the realm of working with computers and into structuring thought and logical analysis of just about anything in life that comes their way.
Teaching people how to think is one of the biggest holes in current educational systems I have experienced. And learning to hack on a toy computer can offer up a lot of educational experience in that regard.
> if MS is willing to subsidize the extra cost associated with the upgraded design and will
> give the "shrunken" Windows XP to the project for free as an optional choice for those who wish to use it
Nope, wrong attitude. OLPC isn't just giving out hardware, they are trying to provide an end to end solution. Just getting XP to boot does nothing. If Microsoft wants to order large lots with additional flash they should be offered the opportunity.... provided THEY intend to provide an operating system, applications, the Microsoft based server infrastructure to support the mesh networking (from Windows clients) back end data store, Internet connectivity, securing the laptops from malware and theft, etc. I.e. the total solution OLPC is offering.
But since OLPC has already expended countless hours of both paid and contributed labor designing the current system and since just an offer of XP (even if offered for $0) adds zero functionality and would require a total redesign of both the hardware, software and infrastructure it would be pointless for OLPC to consider switching at this late stage.
Democrat delenda est
...wow, that is so far off.
When/How did politics get involved with any of this? What, at all, does OLPC do that is immoral? How does "hypocracy" at all come into play with OLPC's mission statement? Where the hell do you get the idea that there are FOSS advocates who simply use the OLPC as a way to spite Microsoft?
What OLPC is about is bringing computers to parts of the world with low income. So what does that mean? The computers have to have as much of an inexpensive design as possible while still being functional. Therefore, it is necessary to choose an operating system that 1) is least demanding of powerful hardware, and 2) is cost-efficient. A GNU/Linux distro immediately solves number 2. Zero cost. As for number 1, an open-source operating system allows you to truly fine-tune it to only include what is really needed, thus allowing you to remove unnecessary things that would eat up memory and disk space. Windows won't let you do that.
OLPC could really care less about trying to shoot Microsoft out of the water. If people choose to pay for Windows and Office, more power to 'em.
But if they have a truly low budget and want a functional computer for the least amount of money, then OLPC would be the best way to bring computing to their children and schools.
No "FOSSies" "using" children. No "rabid" extremism. No hypocrisy in any of that.
/* No Comment */
This has nothing to do with XP on OLPC, or a measly half a million dollars. What it has to do is with country after country after country choosing non-Microsoft products. When these children and their parents see how well open source software works, they will consider alternative products for their businesses and governments, rather than Microsoft's offerings. This could add up to $billions of lost sales for our friends in Redmond.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I partly agree, but it's kind of an over-simplification. There are of course intermediate levels of poverty where children have access to the very basic resources as well as education, but their families or schools can't afford your average computers. OLPC is aiming to that crowd, I think, which is likely to be quite large and will largely benefit from it.
There are already thousands of these being ordered worldwide, so the idea can't be that bad.
What planet are you on???
Over here in Europe, I've worked in IT/Telecoms support for 20+ years now, have a whole heap of friends in the computer industry and I have seen or heard of someone owning a Mac a total of ***THREE*** times:
1. A close buddy of mine has been given a Mac by his IT department because it came into their hands somehow and they didn't know what to do with it. He doesn't have much idea what to do with it either.
2. An American tutor on a training course I was on some two years ago had a Macbook.
3. A posing student-type was sat with one in the corner of Starbucks in my home town the other week - and he was making damned sure everyone saw his little silver Apple logo.
Sorry, but by that track record I know of ***MORE*** people using Commodore Amigas and AmigaOS than I do owning a Mac!!!
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
... teaching kids how to use the dominant operating system on the planet may not be a bad thing.
Yes Linux is gaining ground and is now on par with Windows or better, but in this case the diversity could be a good thing.
No matter how the OS war goes, MS Windows will be a significant OS for a very long time.
Teaching kids the ins and outs of it could benefit them.
If the country buying the laptops wants to teach their youth Windows, let them. If they want to teach them Linux, the same should apply.
*BUT*
OLPC should set down the ground rules for MS:
- The version of windows should be provided to OLPC for free.
- The additional cost needed to upgrade the hardware to support WinXP should be covered by MS.
- The upgraded hardware should be compatable with the Linux based OS that OLPC is using (incase the customer state wants to switch OSs)
- If MS decides that the contribution is not in their interests in the future, they must continue to support those countries that bought the XP version.
MS would jump on these conditions because it creates a future market for them, and only benefits OLPC because there are more options for their clients.
Just my 2 cents
MODS, remember that there is not a -1 Disagree for a reason.
Remember folks, slashdot doesn't have a -1 "disagree" moderation!
We get this question a lot. It's a good question.
Yes. If a child doesn't have access to medicine, clean drinking water, or food, those are all more important.
But, even more common than communities that don't have access to those, are communities that do, but still don't have access to education, or communications.
No, but he might say, "I wonder if I can sell some of my excess crops within a reasonable distance", or "Can I get some other kinds of seeds that can grow here" or "Is my brother who I haven't heard from since he fled the village after the last war out there somewhere?"
And the teacher in his school might say "I wish I had an encyclopedia in my language I could show these kids to aid in their lessons."
And his doctor might say "I'm so glad I have a way to consult with my colleagues to help diagnose this kid's disease so he has a good chance of recovery."
Yes. Yes we can. In addition to the above, how about the AIDS educator who can put together a better presentation to try to convince the local city council to help out?
Or the orphan who is able to learn some bookkeeping and is thus able to get a job in a local shop? Or the girl who's able to learn enough science to earn a scholarship to a nearby university?
All of these, of course, are examples from real projects where people have used computers donated by GWoB or other organizations.
Depends who you mean by "They". There are people who are, literally, starving. Long before they can make use of any donated computers, they need food, then help with infrastructure for growing food and getting a steady supply of clean drinking water. Though in most cases, that's more of a political problem. Extra resources won't help if the local warlord intercepts them because he wants to exterminate you.
But that is, overall, only a tiny portion of the entirety of what's needed out there. OLPC, GWoB, and many other groups are addressing some of the rest of it.
And, just as an extra note about the local tyrant, it is of note that the indigenous people of Chiapas were able to bring pressure to bear on their government because they were able to get the word out quickly thanks in large part to their access to computers, and the internet. Without the internet, there would probably be no Maya left in the area.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
I'm all for Microsoft products and you only have to look at my posting history to see where I stand on most matters Microsoft. However, I think that giving kids a non-MS alternative is the way to go. I am so pro-Microsoft because I have been using Microsoft products since DOS 3.3 and I understand how they function at the core. I learned some x86 Assembler. I cracked some copy protection and messed around with INT13 and various other system calls to make the computer do funny things. I remember when DOS 5.0 came out it came with a "huge" 300+ page manual that detailed all of the components of the OS and how the worked. The Microsoft of today doesn't offer that level of documentation and the ability to really tinker with the computer to make it work. The Microsoft of today obfuscates things and goes about doing things in a very non-standard way. I don't really support Microsoft because I think they do things the "right" way. I support them because I can make the Microsoft stuff do what I need it to do and that is good enough for me. But for my children, for the children of the world... I'm all for them learning Linux. Linux is to computers today what DOS was to computers in the late 1980s when I was getting into them.
This is precisely why the OLPC project is so laughably absurd. Take a $200 device that is fragile (it's ruggedized but still electronics), is an environmental hazard to dispose of, and has a lifespan measured in years...and use it to replace books, which are far more rugged, cheaper to produce, and have a lifespan measured in centuries. There are good reasons to spread information technology, but "should be used to replace books" is not one of them.
OLPC is a rich man's idea of what poor men need. It's like donating an expresso machine to a homeless shelter.
JTF: In your heart, you know we're right.
Schoolbooks do NOT have a lifespan measured in centuries. USSR or Yugoslavia, anyone?
While more fragile than a book, yes, what is the value of all the books in the world?
Text is the easiest thing for a device like this to store, access, and display. By having one a child could have every text ever digitized available to them. To me that sounds more valuable than $200.
Also, while rugged, physical books are not perfect in a developing, rural environment. How much space would $200 worth of books take to store? How do you keep them from getting wet and dirty?
I wouldn't even necessarily call the OLPC more fragile than books. It's just differently fragile/tough. More vulnerable to some things, less to others.
How do you keep them from getting wet and dirty?
Very good point. In a humid environment, I could see books rotting before the OLPC would fail.
Figure a textbook on the cheap is 5 bucks. This is 1/10 to 1/20th of what many class textbooks in the USA cost. It'd also be very close to physical cost, after all, we're talking about large books here, frequently color.
Then the break even point is 40 books(assuming the books, in electronic format at least, are free). It would have been 20 if they'd managed to meet their original cost goal. Stick some extras in there like an encyclopedia. There's many options.
For a 'normal' course load, I'd figure on 5 books a semester. Stuff like Math, Reading, Writing, History, Geography. While you could consider Reading/Writing one subject, you can also tack on a foreign language, speech, science, etc...
So it'd take 8 semesters or 4 years to pay itself off - if all it did was replace textbooks. Which it doesn't - it can also be used for test taking, quizzes, notes, additional reference materials, helping the parents apply for an online loan, etc... I'm sure somebody will produce educational games for it eventually - sure, it might have minimal specs for today, but it's still an order of magnitude more powerful than the machine I played Oregon trail on back when I was in school.
Perhaps the most important thing it could do is help the next generation become comfortable with technology, and resist superstition. We are talking about some very poor areas here.
I don't read AC A human right
The OLPC with its native mesh networking and internet connectivity will put libraries in the hands of many students for less than it would cost to buy, ship, and store the hardcopy books they would otherwise need for a good K-12 education. Looked at only as a method of distributing traditional written materials, the OLPC is a fantastically good idea.
Additionally, OLPC provides any high school student with access to the expanding world of OpenCourseWare (OCW). The complete curricular materials for about 1,800 MIT undergraduate courses are now available as OCW. Carnegie-Mellon, John Hopkins, and an increasing number of other post high school facilities are adding to the OCW libraries, as well.
The OLPC is not only ruggedized, it has been designed so that field maintenance can be done by persons with no special training or tools. Some will break, obviously. They can be cannabilized to keep others functioning.
The world is changing. Try to keep up.
There are already programs that try to supply third world countries with food, medicine, drinking water, infrastructure, etc. Nothing is stopping anybody from continuing to support those efforts. OLPC is taking a new, unexplored direction. It may work out it may not, we have yet to see. I for one see a lot of potential with the project and have high hopes in it working out. The existing strategy for helping poor countries has been unchanged for a long time and the overall problem doesn't seem to be getting better from a global standpoint, so a new approach to the problem should be welcome.
I don't see any logic in taking an extremest point of view of identifying the worst problems and suggesting that doing anything other than dealing with those problems head-on is a waste of time. It's not how mankind has advanced to where we are now. Progress can be made along multiple paths at the same time, and OLPC isn't slowing down any of the other existing support systems.
OLPC is a device for communication and creativity.
With its word processor, you can learn to write.
With its drawing package and its camera, you can learn to create art.
With its eBook reader you can learn from literature and textbooks.
With its email and chat programs, you can share your work, ask questions of remote peers or teachers.
OLPC can help people learn geography, maths, science, history, wind generator maintenance, sustainable agriculture, etc. Any "computer skills" picked up along the way are purely a side benefit.
This is one reason non-FOSS software has no place in it. It would turn a communications and creativity exercise into just another way of building a market.