High Efficiency Hybrid Car Planned For 2009

An anonymous reader writes "You may have heard some of the hype last month when California-based Aptera let out first word of its allegedly super fuel-efficient (and cheap) Typ-1 electric vehicle. A video test drive and gee-whiz specs breakdown at the Popular Mechanics site proves that this thing is for real. The plan is to have a vehicle that goes 120 miles on a single lithium-phosphate pack charge for 2008, with a 300-mpg model to follow by 2009. Aptera is also mentioned in Wired's new cover story as one of several early front-runners for the Automotive X Prize."

Comments

Re:Not Very Pretty

[morgan_greywolf]

This one pretty enough for ya? :-D

Re:Three wheels?

[kalislashdot]

It has to have 3 wheels, so it can be classified as a motorcycle. Once you got to 4 wheels it is a car and is required to have airbags, crumple zones and seat belts, and a whole slew of safety features.

So the fact that is this not a car but a motorcycle I think they are labeling it wrong, A 300MPG Car???, nope a 300MPG enclosed bike is what it is. Heck my wife's scooter gets 70MPG.

The previous post talks about rain a snow? Do you ride a motorcycle in the snow. Nope, same goes for this.

Re:Not Very Pretty

[Loke the Dog]

When american culture stops idealizing the 60's.

In other words, this is how effective cars look. Sure, you can make the detals a bit more aestethically pleasing, but this "futuristic golf car"-look will generally stick because it gives a perfect mix between performance and efficiency. They do what they were designed for well, and those who desire this mix of performance and efficiency will learn to like this look, because it will symbolize what they desire.

So basically, this is a case of the beuty being in the eye of the beholder. However, I do think this car was unusually ugly, but its over all style was good.

Battery choice is interesting

[hey!]

One of the problems with hybrid cars is the inability to obtain large format NiMH cells. The technology needed to produce these cells is patented, and the patent holder has declined to license it to anybody producing large format cells.

(I should mention for the conspiracy fans among us that the patent holder is Chevron).

Anybody who wants to build an electric car or hybrid car design that requires a large battery capacity can't use the safe and proven NiMH technology. This makes the plug-in hybrid, which needs more electrical storage than an ordinary hybrid, the domain of aftermarket kits only.

Lithium Phosphate, once it becomes economical to produce, might well make better hybrid, or even plug-in hybrid technology a commercial reality. While not quite as good as Li-ion, it's inherently safer and (if reports are to be beleived) superior in performance to NiMH.

Re:Battery choice is interesting

[hey!]

I agree it doesn't make sense to think Chevoron bought Texaco just to get Ovonics.

However, the situation is very odd, if Texaco truly thinks it is doing all it can to introduce NiMH technology for automotive applications. If you are making money by licensing the technology, you want to see that technology in as widespread production use as possible as quickly as possible, before something comes along to obsolete it.

If people want to use a technology you have patented, and you are not in the business of producing a competitor technology, then licensing a technology only on terms that discourages its adoption is madness. You don't put early adopters in a catch-22 situation where you'll only license large scale producers, but potential producers have no user base to sell too. If foreign firms who produce your technology where you have not patent want to import, you offer them licensing terms that will be attractive for them. You don't scare them away.

So, we can only conclude that either (a) the people managing the licensing for large format NiMH are utterly deranged or (b) Chevron has some reason to discourage the adoption of NiMH technology in automotive applications.

Of course it doesn't seem exactly likely that NiMH technology could have a measurable impact on Chevron's petroleum profits in the near future. Once Li-Phosphate technology becomes available on the scale needed to support production of EVs and PEHs, we can put this unlikely proposition to the test.

$30,000

[kurtis25]

Call me when the middle class can get a fuel effiecient car. If I have to decide between that and a $15,000 Corolla which gets 30 mpg. I would have to choose the Corolla becuase the extra $15,000 is the current equivilant of 5,000 gallons of gas or about 150,000 miles of driving. If I drove my Corolla 100,000 miles I would pay $25,000 (car + gas) if I drove the Typ-1 e 100,000 miles I would have paid $32,500. If I got the Typ-1 h I would pay 31,000 to go the same distance (assuming it costs $30,000).

Re:$30,000

[GnarlyDoug]

WHen I use the term 'IC' in my post I am referring to straight internal combustion cars.

Gas is going up in price. You can expect $4 or even $5 per gallon in the not too distant future. As this climbs, standard vehicles will become more and more expensive relative to hybrids. In addition you mention 100,000 miles, but that is low. Most modern cars are good for 200,000 miles or more. There are Priuses that have over 300,000 miles on them on the road today.

A $25,000 50 MPG Prius, run for 200,000 miles at $3 per gallon will cost you $12,000 in gas. Your $15,000 30 MPG Corolla will cost you $20,000 in gas. The Prius would cost you only a net $2,000 more in this scenario, and that does not include the unscheduled maintenance cost penalties you pay (see below).

If gas goes to $4 per gallon it is about $17K vs. $27K, making the Prius a wash. If it goes over $4 per gallon, the Prius is cheaper.

As hybrids become more effecient and cheaper, these numbers will dramatically swing against owning a regular car. A 300 mpg hybrid like the article mentions that costs $30,000 will only cost $2,000 to $4,000 in gas over the lifetime of the car even at $5 per gallon. Such a car is free in comparison to the cost of the Corolla. You would literally save in the low tens of thousands of dollars by buying the 'more expensive' hybrid.

There is another big factor. Scheduled maintenance costs on hybrids are about in line with regular cars, but their unscheduled maintenance costs tend to be much lower. Cab companies and fleets like this one are starting to publish the reliability and maintenace results of using hybrids. The data is still sketchy, but even with the early hybrids (2001 models or so) that these sets of data apply to, the data indicates that you can save from $1 to $2 per 50 miles (very rough estimate) or so in unscheduled maintenance costs (ie, unexpected repair costs) over the life of the vehicle for a good hybrid vs. a regular IC vehicle. In other words, if you drive 200,000 miles you, statistically speaking, save about (200,000/50)*(1 to 2) = $4,000 to $8,000 over the lifetime of the car. Now that is a statistical average of course, and you might get a car that costs you almost nothing over that time. But that again you might not.

Hybrids are also holding their value much better than regular cars. You don't take a huge hit to the value of a hybrid just becuase you drove it off the lot. Go look around you'll find used Priuses going for almost as much as new ones.

Finally, I'll point out that Toyota (since we compared Corolla to Prius) no longer makes or sells regular IC cars in Japan. It's hybrid only. They are only making their older cars for America and some other markets, but they have already shown that they consider all non-hybrid lines to be end-lined soon.

In short I would not buy a high-end new IC car today. If you're not ready for a hybrid or you don't drive enough for it to make economic sense to you, then do your best to buy a cheaper used regular car and wait. In the next few years you will see IC cars fall out of favor. For a period of time IC cars will become dirt cheap as demand for them drops through the floor, making the greatest buyers market in history for IC cars. Then IC cars will all but disappear. It's a pretty standard model for technology that has reached the end of the line.

Re:Other incentives

[Firethorn]

Your employer puts up solar panels in the employee parking lot for anyone driving an electric car to work. You park your car in the cool shade under the panels and plug in for a free 9 hour recharge.

It'd be cheaper to simply put up a carport and pay the electric bill each month. Discounting massive subsidization of the solar panels, of course.

Actually, make it simple. Put an AC plug next to every parking stall. In cold places we do it for block heaters. Employers pay for all sorts of perks to attract good employees. Why not add free recharge to the list.

This would work well, I think. Especially if you have the carport charging plugs be on a circuit that allows discretionary turnoffs by the power company - this would increase baseload and not peak.

The power company is willing to cut quite a deal per kwh for these deals, as baseload power can cost them a third or even less than their more expensive peak sources.

People complain about how slow charging will be - but a major difference between pouring gasoline into a car and charging the batter is that pouring gasoline pretty much needs to be an attended activity - charging a car you only need the 30 seconds or so to attach the plug, then remove it before you leave. Heck, you could even set it up so that the act of backing out of the slot disengages the cord, which is on a auto retraction wheel. With 130 miles of range current, I still wouldn't need to charge every day.

No, the ocean absorbs lots of methane

[postbigbang]

And has been doing this for millions of years. The only thing that changes the ocean methane equation is reduced atmospheric pressure, or a very wicked ocean warming--- more than what's forecast.

Re:But, will it fly?

[orclevegam]

According to the wikipedia article this stuff is stable to temperatures of 18C, and the average temperature where it's found at is between 0C and 2C, so you temperature at the bottom of the ocean would need to rise by 16C. If it's hot enough that the ocean bottoms temperature has been raised 16C we're already screwed, as most crops would probably already be dead and most animal life as well.

Re:But, will it fly?

[Archimonde]

The only way I'd be OK with flying cars was if the average population not only had an IQ of 180 to start

Problem is, if the average population has IQ of 180, then technically, it has IQ of 100.

on the market already

[Anonymous Coward]

You're behind the times. All the big fleet operators in the US are testing diesel electric hybrid trucks now(fedex,ups, coca cola, etc), and are going to be investing in them to expand their fleets as the older trucks wear out and get replaced, and two companies in england are shipping all electric trucks well into the multi ton delivery range. *Shipping*, as in normal, you can buy them right now. Cab companies all over are switching to hybrids from crown vics, and as soon as plugin hybrids start coming from the majors they will be using those. This stuff is not theoretical anymore, all these new drivetrains are hitting the market now and in 2008, the automotive industry is going through significant disruptive technology change *right now*. Over seas, in india and china, big moves to electric vehicles, several large companies shipping them in 2008. The range is plenty good enugh now, and will only get better the next few years, ton of battery breakthroughs this year, as in this car in the article, read about their battery tech. Rough analogy, electrics and hybrids are at a similar status as computers in say 92-3, and that was "good enough". Earlier adopters get the benefits, just like with computers. Heck, the prius has been out ten years now! And most of them still on the road, and most of them still running on the original battery packs!

You'll be seeing diesel electric drivetrains in normal cars and pickups real soon now. Real soon. Suburban guys and contractors are gonna eat them things up off the lots as soon as they hit. Same power as a big gas engine, twice the mileage, same towing capacity, double duty as the home or jobsite backup generator. Americans *like* pickups and SUVs, that style is *not* going away, that's where a big part of the market is, so plugin hybrids will be coming to a lot near you soon in pickup and SUV models. It might be the japanese have them first, but who knows, detroit is getting desperate and I bet there's some skunk works action going on there. They can be motivated at times to actually produce. The shareholder pressure and market pressure is now intense, that will have an effect.

Re:But, will it fly?

[saboola]

Yeah... that's what we really want. The general public, going fast without horses. Think about all the idiot riders on four horse carriages that roll their carriages regularly. Do you really want those mouth breathers going faster? If we ever do get horseless carriages, it won't be long before these CARs are slamming into the sides of farm houses and crashing through people's porches. Drunk driving anyone? Head-on collisions? The only way I'd be OK with horseless carriages was if the average population not only had an IQ of 180 to start, but also had a really strong sense of REAL personal responsibility. That is to say, "Not only do I care about taking care of myself, but I care about the wellbeing of every human being that I am around". Until that happens (yeah right), I'll be casting my vote against the common neanderthal getting a vehicle that is not pulled my animal.

Re:But, will it fly? - not insightful

[Ralph Spoilsport]

saboola parodied a comment about flying cars by looking at the transition from horses to automobiles with the same language.

Somehow, he was rated insightful, when he really isn't. Flying cars and driving cars may have epistemological equivalence (both = vehicle operation) but they are not ontologically equivalent. Example: hacking up a cooked turkey and brain surgery are both examples of (episteme) knife wielding, but they are not the same (ontologue) activities and have radically different social values and results.

Similar to the brain-dead postmodernists who insist that theory has no value, because "it's all theory".

All he did was act contrarian in a very adolescent manner - the kind of numbskull pigheaded idiot logic I expect from a dull second year university student - the kind I normally give a C- and a recommendation to do some follow up research to get the grade up.

RS