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Windows Home Server Corrupts Files
crustymonkey points out a ComputerWorld article which says that "Microsoft Corp. has warned Windows Home Server users not to edit files stored on their backup systems with several of its programs, including Vista Photo Gallery and Office's OneNote and Outlook, as well as files generated by popular finance software such as Quicken and QuickBooks."
Crustymonkey asks Don't back up your files to Windows Home Server, as recommended by Microsoft themselves? I'm not exactly sure what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."
"I'm not exactly what the point is in having a home server if you can't back up files on it."
Profit
They can't copy files to anywhere...
.... If there's a user friendly alternative to Windows server for Joe Enduser? I run a Debian box with Samba on a computer that does hardware RAID 1 for my file sharing needs (I also have an SCP turned on so I can shove files onto it from outside my network too). But that's not something that I can suggest to my friends and family. So what can I suggest to them that is as "user friendly" as Windows Server?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Microsoft Home Server Converts Files to a Secure Format for Your Security.
Microsoft will gladly sell you a one use un-convert license when you need to see the data.
The blurb says that it corrupts files on the backup when you try to edit them...
Isn't part of the point of a backup that you DON'T edit the backup media?
I can look at this two ways... MS didn't test this enough because it didn't occur to them someone might do something so ridiculous...
OR...
Not only did MS create the misfeature that is editing backups, but they screwed it up too...
Am I still feeling charitable from the holiays? Hmm...
So I read TFA thinking, so there's a glitch when windows has virus X on wednesdays only, and only in regions that have the chinese language pack, and only on systems with 64-bit version installed with a sound blaster driver installed.
But for the first time ever, slashdot's title isn't sensationalist. Microsoft simply states, yeah, for no apparent reason, files are getting corrupt using our operating system.
Jeebus F'n H Chroist! You had one job to do, and you screwed it up royally.
It's one thing when some obscure feature doesn't work correctly. It's another thing when a fundamental operation of your software hasn't worked for A YEAR since it came out.
IT'S AN OPERATING SYSTEM. Your job is to interface the hardware with the user and software.
*sigh* Bring on the "my linux-distro of choice doesn't do that, that makes me right all along" comments.
Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
Everyone knows you have to wait until at least version 3.1 to get anything useful out of Microsoft.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
It's to show another failure at Microsoft in their core markets, while they pursue TV, Magazines, Video Games, etc.
Put your trust in Microsoft, because they're gonna kill off every other competitor anywayA feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I would suggest a good DVD writer. There is lots of room, you can schedule backups, and all the people need to do is to remember to put in a new DVD every week or on whatever schedule you/they set up.
As to Microsoft screwing up yet again, it's just funny. Very funny.
Think Allen has rubber chairs to throw around now?
The link from the summary leads to... damn it's so bad I can hardly say it. Worse than tubgirl and goatse combined.
As the blank screen fails to load, an ad pops up. Then a "greeting page" appears on the blank page ("greetings from our advertisers")
Then I notice the "click here to ignore this greetings page and enter ComputerWorld, the world's worst IT magazine".
Of course I quickly hit the "back" button so I wouldn't be assaulted with a million ads and a paragreph of content-free lead-in text before "click here for next page".
Honestly, guys, can't you find a better link? Oh shit, the only two that Google News shows is ComputerWorld and PC World.
Why is it that the very WORST sites on the internet are IT sites? It's embarrassing! And people wonder why, if you RTFM, "ewe muss bee knew hear". We KNOW BETTER! We know what is ready to assault us if we dare click a link to an IT site!
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
When I submitted this story last week, I mentioned that it was likely due to the way it handles ADS (NTFS' Alternate Data Streams) on shared folders. Fortunately, there are only so many programs that actually use those.
That said, yeah, I wouldn't use Windows for a server, either. It's just not reliable enough, given that you can do better for free.
According to the MS knowledge base entry:
;-)
"Make sure that you have a backup copy of any important program files before you store these files on a system that is running Windows Home Server."
In other words, use something else to backup the files first if you intend to backup them with Windows Home Server
Similar setup here, too.
In fact, running a Linux + Samba + SSH/SFTP/SCP + RAID ( + Optionally NFS ) seems the best solution available.
You can't suggest them to install and configure Debian all by themselves.
BUT
There are virtually hundred of "network enclosure" : Small empty external cases, with a 1Gbps ethernet and a small ARM chip running Linux+Samba+Apache, almost ready to use, you only need to buy disks and mount them in (several computer part shop even propose you to sell a pre-assembled such solution).
Linksys, D-Link and Netgear are a few of the constructor whose name jump to my mind right now, but there are virtually hundreds of them.
The best part is :
- These box have Linux pre-installed on their flash memory. So no difficult configuration is required for the average users. Maybe just help them to configure secure access and configure the router if they also want to have access to the files from outside home. The computer part shop often can do the hard-drive mounting and deliver a ready-to-use product.
- Almost any of those box runs Linux, so their firmware is modifiable and you can find several guides explaining how to run external software or even installing additional software into the firmware. MLDonkey is such an open source eD2K / Bittorrent / etc. client which is also precompiled for embed Linux.
Not only the enclosure is useful for average user, it may be useful for lazy power-users who don't want to assemble their own server or prefer silent and energy efficient servers.
- A lot of those boxes have USB2 "Host" connectors, so you can connect additional HDD to the server. But as it is Linux, a lot of different and interesting usage can be found be power users like plugins webcams, or use the box as a print server in addition to a file server.
So yes, you can't easily tell your friends to *install* Debian all by themselves, but you can get them to buy an enclosure with Linux pre-installed. (And if they upgrade their box to a newer one, you can recycle the old one into some fun project thanks to Linux' openness and available USB2 connectors).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Oh please. ``a, because a PST being written and read over a network is slower, and if the connection goes down, the file may be corrupted... just like working with any other file over a network.'' That might be the gospel according to Redmond, but for those of us outside the horrific networking decisions Microsoft have made, terabyte-class Oracle databases work just fine over NFS. Remote access via GigE to dedicated filers is faster than local spindles unless those spindles are in exotic raid arrays, and why would a `network' be any more likely to induce corruption than, oh, a fibre channel network?
In this capacity, the problem would be with using WHS as a file server. I must say this is nail #2 in the grave of my disappointment with WHS. My first problem with it is that there is a bug in performance - reads are fine, but writing data to a WHS share is unacceptably slow. Some will claim it's Vista autotuning, or differential copy, or something else but it's demonstrably just piss-poor performance on WHS.
Overall the product is a good idea, it's just poorly implemented at present. If they fix this new bug and fix the performance issues, I'd actually be pretty happy with it.
From Microsoft's site:
When you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that uses Windows Home Server, the files may become corrupted when you save them to the home server. Programs affected: Windows Vista Photo Gallery, Windows Live Photo Gallery, Microsoft Office OneNote 2007, Microsoft Office OneNote 2003, Microsoft Office Outlook 2007, Microsoft Money 2007, and SyncToy 2.0 Beta. Additionally, there have been customer reports of issues with Torrent applications, with Intuit Quicken, and with QuickBooks program files. Our support team is currently trying to reproduce these issues in our labs.Finally, they say:
This issue may occur because of a recently discovered problem with Windows Home Server shared folders and with certain programs.Fraggin' scary.
Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
Having come from a DECNet background, when I first encountered PC networking I was completely flummoxed by the situation.
MS-DOS and Windows users seem to take it for granted that a file that is across the network is accessed via different APIs, different user interfaces, and has generally different properties from files that are stored locally. In the MS-DOS days they were always mumbling about The Redirector. Why does a file need to be REdirected across the network? Why isn't it just directed, the way it would be directed to a disk volume or a floppy or what have you?
It isn't so long ago that most Windows programs couldn't even reference cross-network files in a straightforward way in a file open dialog. You first had to assign a "drive letter" and "map a network drive." (And, of course, all references to that file would break if you ever assigned the remote directory to a different drive letter).
And when they finally got around to fixing it in the OS, it only fixed it for new programs that were written to some new API. Existing programs, even things like Visual C++ utilities, continued to go through the mapping tapdance, because apparently the existing OS file dialog routines weren't updated to do things the new way.
The assumption that files across the network are totally differents sorts of thing from local files appeared to be so ingrained in the Windows culture that Windows people don't even understand why it is a criticism of Windows to mention this. They think it has to be that way, because, well, they're across the network. As if there were some physical property of 100-base-T cables that made them intrinsically different from SATA cables.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I've seen this before in AD groups. Windows will do a 'delayed write' of a file, then let you know later on if the write failed. Great if you're copying files up, terrible if you're saving a document while quitting the application and you get told 30 seconds later that your data was lost.
Example: http://cdslash.net/temp/images/datalost.png
Quite frustrating. I've yet to lose serious amounts of data so far, but I'm sure it'll happen.
From a later post, I guess Windows Home Server *automatically* backs up clients that are connected to it, so you have your pretty little PC you open up your pictures and crop them... and whatever, Home Server at some point will back that up (corrupting the files in the process).
I have always thought that MS take the "personal" part of "PC" too far -- to the extent that MS does not "get" networking.
In the *nix world, it is common that one can sit down at *any* machine in the network, log on and one's desktop/files, etc are just the same (assuming the same OS). This has never been true in the MS world. MS requires you to have *your computer* and to always use *your computer* if you want to have any semblance of a familiar desktop/files. Even with server stored profiles, the files are copied to the local machine and copied back again at the end of the session. This is a wildly inefficient method -- really a hack layered on to achieve the semblance of providing a real floating profile. If the profile is large, the copying can take a long time or be impossible (because of lack of disk space).
In fact, for most Windows users, the idea that one can sit down at another machine and access one's files, just the same as if one were logged into one's primary machine is totally alien. It is amazing how much MS has trained people to accept poor features.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
How do you know I'm not just twice as likely to defend my home from a friend or family member?
Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
Except in reality you are twice as likely to shoot a friend or family member than defend your home with your home defense gun.
Actually, this is not true.
This comes from a highly dishonest "study" by Kellermann. The only "use" counted in the study was to kill someone, so (for example) holding an attacker at gun point until the police show up was not counted as a "use" of a gun. There were other major flaws too.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html
A better study is the Kleck study.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html
It is no more true to say that owning a gun makes you likely to shoot your family, than to say that owning kitchen knives makes you more likely to stab your family.
For me it was Visual Studio files, the scenario is I have a solution in a directory on the Home Server that I open in VS and start to edit. I save very often, as a force of habit, and randomly VS would say that the solution file or the project file was invalid. I would open it in a text editor and it's garbled, should be plain text. The work around I use is to do all editing on my local drive and copy the contents to the Home Server when done. I have not had any issue with file corruption since, also I have not had data corruption issues with programs that edit my pictures or music files directly on the Home Server. It has something to do with the way they implemented the drive extender. Bittorrent downloads require the same type of workaround, download somewhere and then copy to Home Server, but you can seed from the Home Server with no issues. It will be nice to have a fix.
My personal experience: Vista corrupts files unless you only use Vista. I'm not surprised now to hear more Vista-related corruption. Maybe Microsoft should add to their sales pitch and say Vista is safer, even against the RIAA because it corrupts your files when they try to investigate you. Now with more backup corruption!
Which do well to explain the reason why, when a $1000 PC is faster than a $1,000,000 mainframe, that businesses still buy the mainframe. And then they stock the washrooms with single-ply toilet paper to cut costs.
Microsoft has made a lot of noise about being "Enterprise class" software, and having "Reliable" servers, but when things like this happen, it just goes to show that Microsoft won't ever be able to touch big iron:
The next time I hear anyone use the term "enterprise class" and Microsoft in the same sentence, I'm simply going to refer them to this bug. Totally unacceptable - even for a gaming OS.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
I mean really, after the first 6143569056076952107294386875907695350 times maybe it was worthy of a chuckle, but to keep on modding up this joke suggests some form of psychosis.
Wait, I'll put this in a way that you mods can understand:
1. go to slashdot
2. find a story
3. find a comment on that story
4. post a tired, old, lame-ass joke for the 9 billionth time
5. ???????
6. GET MODDED UP!
Ok, I followed the silly meme, where's my +5 Funny?
>>> Except in reality you are twice as likely to shoot a friend or family member than defend your home with your home defense gun.
False conclusion based on faulty data sampling.
A statistic does not get created unless there is a report. Cases where someone gets shot almost always generate a report. Cases where the homeowner's possession of a gun thwarts the crime and nobody gets shot are less likely to be reported.
Guns in the home are not high on the list of dangerous objects for average Americans. Check it out. The fact that drug dealers, thieves, and gang members often shoot their family members and 'friends' is used to make it sound like average people are not capable of defending themselves without endangering their families. It is a false impression intentionally created by lumping repeat criminal offenders in with the general population's statistics in these cases.
If 'the people' in Amendment 2 are 'the state' then Amendments 1, 2, 4, 9, and 10 benefit the state, not you.
Quote from Microsoft's support article: "When you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that uses Windows Home Server, the files may become corrupted when you save them to the home server."
A large amount of Microsoft's profit, in my opinion, comes from selling unfinished software, and then getting money for "upgrades". Microsoft won't get money for the fix to this problem, but I think you will agree that Microsoft is the largest supplier of unfinished software, and making the whole world a beta tester is cheaper than selling a finished product.
Therefore, MOD PARENT UP.
I notice that people are inventing nonsense about this; the problem appears not to have anything to do with editing backups.
It only takes 131+ years to copy 168 MB of pictures, what are you complaining about?
Apple Guy: Hey, PC. Whatcha doing?
PC Guy: Backing up my files.
AG: Wow. That's a lot of stuff - sure you can handle it all?
PC: Oh, sure. I'm using Vista Home Server. It allows me to back up my files by placing them securely in here.
AG: Whoa! What's the noise!?
PC: It's my backup appliance!
AG: Dude! That's a shredder!
PC: What!? Can't hear you!
AG:
That statistic is not the least bit true.
Are you one of those nuts that thinks guns have a mind of their own, and "could go off at any time"?
Ok, 168 MB is 168*1024*1024 = 176,160,768 bytes.
A Commodore 64's floppy disk, the 1541 runs at 300 baud. So that's 176160768/300 = 587203 seconds for an equivalent copy. That's 9786 minutes, or 163.1 hours. That's 6.796 days.
The same copy will take Vista 131 years. That's 47815 days.
That means that a Commodore 64 w. 1541 drive is roughly 47815/6.796 = 7036 times faster than Windows Vista.
Now, for a human number. An average typist gets about 50-70 wpm according to wiki. So we'll call the average 60wpm. Seems reasonable. That's 60*5 = 300 characters per minute. Since a C64 moves data at 300 characters per second, we can say that a human typist is 60 times slower than the Commodore 64. That means that a human typist is 7036/60 = 117 times faster than a Vista file copy.
Impressive!
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I am pro gun ownership. I think this whole, "hold at gun point" thing is stupid. I'm sorry, I've always been taught that you only draw your weapon to do one thing, fire it.
I have a few hand guns. Most are locked up safely. I have no kids so I keep on in a desk next to my bed, ready to be loaded. Just slide in the clip, and I'm good to go. We have had a few breakins lately in my area. If you break in, I will not be holding you for the police. I am in my right to kill, and I will kill. To hold at gunpoint is to risk that you might have a gun, or a friend I did not notice. It is stupid and very unsafe. I have a wife to protect, and property to protect. I really think anyone who holds at gunpoint had no intent of using the weapon in the first place. This is bad gun ownership.
You should only draw your weapon when you have identified a target and intend to fire on it. Hesitation might get you killed. The only exception might be in the case of military and police.
You can backup files to the system PERFECTLY FINE. It's just that once they are backed up, there is some problem editing the files on the server. While that's obviously a problem, why are people needing to edit their backups? I thought the point of a backup was just to be a copy of whatever is on your system. If you edit the file directly on your server you are leaving your PC with an older version - that doesn't make any sense.
How THE FUCK did this get modded +5 Funny?! For crying out loud, the guy is saying that he IS ready to KILL someone - granted, in self defense - but whether or not this person is armed, and BEFORE making a threat assessment. I'm sorry, but to me that is manslaughter, and I am disgusted that people would mod it FUNNY.
And for those of you who aren't sure, this is NOT a sarcastic post.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
Why would that be? The reason is that the unix tools for creating this type of setup are simple and transparent, while the windows tools for creating the type of setup include shades of obscurity, clunkiness, and conflict with various bits of (probably badly written) certain windows apps. The fact that windows has these features is certainly a bullet point that you will find in certain sales presentations, but the experience of setting up a network to provide these features isn't so pleasant, and it's not something most users are even aware is possible.
Wow...you really have no idea what you're talking about. Want to set up a roaming profile for a user? It's really simple, when you create the user account specify a network path for the profile to be stored on the line that says "Profile". Oh shit, you're right! That was incredibly obscure, clunky, and conflicting with software!
Want to minimize the size of the roaming profile by assuring that the My Documents, Application Data, etc folders are not stored locally or in the profile? Set up a Group Policy in your domain to activate folder redirection. It will take you about 3 minutes to conifgure the folder redirection, and it will apply TO EVERYONE. Damn that was hard.
Too lazy to add the profile path on the profile line when you create an account? Write a script that automates the account creation process and automatically populates the path field with the correct data based on the username, along with any other fields that you would manually have to fill out. Oh fuck! You can write scripts in Windows to manage the system? That's as easy as using Linux!
Windows does provide (at the insistence of some very large customers) for the possibility of having network-available home environment/desktops. The thing is... this setup is not the default in windows environments, even in large networked windows environments, while it IS the default in medium size (50 workstations and up) unix workstation environments.
Do you know why it's not the default? For the same reason that any of 9000 other settings are not the default. Because it's easier to start with something small and build on it. Because not everybody wants that functionality enabled by default, so you start with the lowest common denominator and give people the CHOICE to enable the functionality that they need and disable the functionality that they don't need. When you think about it, how many people really need roaming profiles? In some businesses it makes sense, but at most companies the same person will be using the same PC every day. Why add another layer if you don't need it?
Well, the copying to the backup should be automatic, but yes, this is exactly what should happen.
It seems that you don't quite grasp the idea of a backup, the general plan is that you work on working files, and these are duplicated at some point in time to a separate location. The only time you should ever even look at the backup set is when recovering files (or testing your recovery process), and you should NEVER be editing backups, because then your backup is not a backup any longer but a working set!
NZ Electronics Enthusiasts: Check out my Trade Me Listings
If I wake up at 3 AM because someone is rummaging around my house I really don't think it's out of line to assume they're planning to do something bad to my person or effects...
Playing twenty questions in a situation like that often results in them giving a 21 gun salute for you...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Heh - last time I was at my inlaws for a holiday, I was the one holding HER hack from killing them. It wasn't until we got married and saw how my family interacted till she realized how poorly treated she was. If I'd have killed them for her, I'd have gotten laid every night for a month.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
You didn't read the page you quoted, did you?
Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
You are editing a file that is saved directly to a shared folder on WHS, which WHS accepts and gives the A-OK signal to your software, then later has a problem writing the file, and tells you about it, with no chance of recovering the file at that time. Since this can happen after you have exited your software, you have no way of recovering the file.
The problem is not:
The third one is the trickiest. See, if you go to the current WHS Discover site (click Help and How-To's) you will see that the big thing is Remote Access, Media Sharing, and Computer Backup. This would lead people to believe that any other use, is not what it was meant for, and when something goes wrong, you should have known better.
But, one only needs to look back at previous pages for WHS to see that Sharing was a central feature. Yes, full sharing, not just Media Sharing. Even the Overview of that page focuses on sharing first, and backup (protection) was third. The first overview item was Sharing, and that is simply what this problem is about, shared folders. Either for your own use as a networked server, or to share with other users.
Now, if you go to Eric Bott's blog, you will see the explanation that the largest factor is "a home server is under extreme load." Well, I'm sorry, but if the touted role, even at the beginning and not right now, was acting as a share folder to save your stuff to, then by damn it better do that. If the server gets loaded down, it should not pretend it got the file and tell you later that it didn't, it should just either not respond (and your software would have to let you know it couldn't do it) or it should give an error response (your software's problem now).
Honestly, this product was marketed as a home server for storing and sharing your files, with acting as a backup server making 3rd on the list of features. Now, they want to change that and say that it is for backup first, file sharing from special locations and under special conditions, and not really for file storage.
Cause you can't get a tan from an amber monitor. If you do, there is something horribly wrong.
I used incorrect wording - the rest of my post was in 3rd person, and this should have been as well. I do not advocate that activity; I was pointing out that the statistics in question don't take such situations into account. Were I personally to be in a situation with an intruder in my house, I would hope my reaction would be to assess the threat and act appropriately, which could include shooting to kill. I really wouldn't thingk I would actually hold anyone at gunpoint; that's just stupid.
Now, onto your comments:
"It is likely to both be the case that people predisposed to violence are more likely to own guns, and that owning a gun will make people more likely to be violent than if they didn't own a gun."
Where on earth did you get that statistic? I'm also confused where you say that the situation is more nuanced than "owning guns causes people to be violent" or "being violent causes people to own guns", but then simply restate the positions with more words. "Nuanced" doesn't mean "couched in pseudo-psychological terminolgy."
And this:
"And the statistics don't show all the incidents where gun owners just didn't get a chance to use their gun in any way, in which case, all that the gun did was make them more likely to get shot."
Again, how is it that mere possesion of a firearm makes it more likely to be shot? Not from a statistical point of view, but a behavioral view. Statistically, owners of cars are more likely to be in car accidents; but that doesn't mean I should sell my car if I am a good driver and take proper precautions.
And finally:
"Don't overestimate the usefulness of a gun in defending your home. Real-life burglars have many advantages over the gun-owner, which include (a) figuring out when you're not likely to be home anyway, (b) being able to pick when and where to strike, (c) surprise." combined with "Don't spend money on a fantasy of an intruder breaking into your home and you handling it by the book with a gun. Spend the money on better security measures than guns; e.g., good alarm systems, good locks, metal bars over the windows, etc."
You are trying to have it both ways - the sophisticated burglar you posit will easily defeat those passive protections you advocate. And you misspelled "homeowner" as "gun-owner" - everything you say applies equally to someone who isn't armed. You seem to be saying that it is better to offer no resistance once one's house has been invaded.
I do not advocate everyone owning or using guns - there are plenty of people in the world who shouldn't deal with fireplaces, much less firearms. But I'm not going to tell them they CAN'T have one, and I have a problem with people telling me I can't have one "for my own protection"
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Well, you just highlight the problem. Not everyone (or rather few people) understands the word "backup" as it should be. However from a system design and testing point of view, the system should support "live" editing of files in the backup. Alternative, they should have warn the users of this limitations because most people would think that if a system allows them to edit files, then it should be able to handle the file editing properly. So it is a case of either bad design and bad testing or both. No excuses for Microsoft here.
What the hell? Nearly 15 years ago, we had a Mac network at school, and everything was done from the network drive, and we never had any problems like this. Hell, before that, we had a network of BBC micros, and there was no local storage - everything was done on the server. In fact, that was the typical model in those days. Funny how it's nearly 2008 and Microsoft can't even manage something that's been standard practice for decades.
... and then they built the supercollider.