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How To Lose Your Job, Thanks To The Internet

The New York Times has up an article discussing the trend of employers tracking the 'free time' activities of their employees via their web presence. "When they do go off the clock and off the corporate network, how they spend their private time should be of no concern to their employer, even if the Internet, by its nature, makes some off-the-job activities more visible to more people than was previously possible. In the absence of strong protections for employees, poorly chosen words or even a single photograph posted online in one's off-hours can have career-altering consequences." The piece likens this activity to the 'Sociological Department' that the Ford Company ran to monitor the home lives of their workers. Overstatement, or the corp as Big Brother?

18 of 654 comments (clear)

  1. Not much is new here. by gnutoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fascism is older than the internet. Witch hunts are older than that. What you see is a bunch of companies that think they are so powerful that they can tell you to do and think as they say, 24/7. With government granted franchises, rubber stamped consolidation and bad joke anti-trust enforcement big company perception is not that far from reality. Shutting down online expression is both an exercise and enhancer of corporate power, just as book burning and other forms of censorship have been.

    If your company is like this, do yourself a favor and quit.

    1. Re:Not much is new here. by FLEB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can see the tough spot for the company, though. If they can get info on their employees, so can their competitors, their customers, the media, disgruntled folks with a bone to pick... Although it might not right, and it might not be overtly expressed, a company could conceivably lose work or customers due to something widely seen as objectionable. An employer taking the high road might be stuck taking the battering of their association with drunkards, preverts, druggies, by a public who has much less responsibility to be fair and upstanding.

      I'm not saying that the companies are justified in disciplining workers for off-job activities, but that it's a much stickier situation than just "corporate fascist bastards bringin' me down".

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    2. Re:Not much is new here. by FLEB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In order to effectively restrict economic retaliation against free speech, you would have to remove most all freedom from commerce (Yes, you must buy the soup made by Nazi-commie Satanist Pedophiles, because they have the freedom to be that way.), and that ends up stifling a whole lot more freedom of a whole lot more people. A large part of the concept of free speech is that better ideas will rise to the top. Although the currents they rise (or sink) on are not centrally, governmentally controlled-- they are free from absolute censorship-- certain forces-- economic and social-- still do (and should) exist to raise and lower ideas, in order to raise the ideas that are worthy, and to deflate the ones that are crackpot.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    3. Re:Not much is new here. by Planesdragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Freedom of speech is a nice thing, but in real word people don't say to employers what they think if it means they lose their jobs Any employer that does not have a clear channel for their employees to express their honestly held opinions is a company doomed to failure. Any company that cares what their low-level employees do on their own time is just wasting money.

      Things are different if you have actual company secrets, or if you're a corporate official. But in that case, you're hired EXACTLY to tell the company what you think.
    4. Re:Not much is new here. by FLEB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's no harm, per se, in allowing speech without sanctions. There is, however, no way to create an environment where this is the case, without restricting the commerce-choice freedoms of others. People naturally do not want to interact or do business with people they find objectionable. If the objectionable person is part of a market with reasonable alternatives, oftentimes people will choose to do business with those they find least objectionable.

      Commerce is partially a social interaction, and economic prosperity is largely dependent upon successful commerce. If you repulse your potential customers (or other such profitable interactors) by way of your public speech or stances, you will be less able or likely to commit successful commercial transactions, and will find yourself economically disadvantaged. That's just the fact of a free market.

      If you are an employee, depending on your role and its visibility, your advancement may be based on how well you sympathize with and reflect the important values of your employer. After all, a group of people who are all ideologically opposed but supposedly working together is a recipe for failure. Luckily, since free enterprise is legal, and you cannot be outrightly prohibited from changing your job, field, or marketing strategy (depending on who or what you are), you can take your free-speakin' self into the free market and see how well your ideologically-charged business flies among more sympathetic souls. (Granted, this is a less-than-perfect rendition in real life, given that there are monopolies and barriers-to-entry to some fields... call it "implementation hurdles")

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    5. Re:Not much is new here. by BakaHoushi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My question is, what kind of business would truly suffer from the off-the-clock activities of its employees? Would people boycott or something the products of a software developer because Bob from Accounting has admitted to smoking pot at his home? It seems unlikely to me. What DOES seem likely is that, say, a CEO caught SMUGGLING drugs, or at least financing it, would have far worse consequences. And that's already a serious crime and if caught, getting fired would be the LEAST of your concerns.

      Let's face facts: We get a lot of our stuff from China. China makes little kids work in sweatshops so they can make this stuff cheap. The average American doesn't give a rat's ass about what employees do on or off the clock as long as they can get what they want for cheap.

  2. More like how to lose your job cause you're stupid by syousef · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you do something in public in your own time, it can and will affect your employment and is of concern to your employer. No bank wants an employee that's a convicted fraudster. No school wants teachers who are porn stars. No police force wants an ex-con as an officer. The issue isn't whether you conduct these activities in your own time or not, or if the Internet was used. The issue is that you're in a trusted position, and that your employer may have the right to terminate your employment if they perceive a conflict of interest, or if something you've done or are doing in your spare time means you can't effectively do your job.

    Now if employers terminate people unreasonably for being part of a political organization, due to their ethnicity or religion or for some other discriminatory reason the existing legal protection needs to come into play (as is the case of Stacy Snyder mentioned in TFA - terminating someone for being seen with a large glass of alcohol is moronic - that said she's better off with a different employer if that's how her current one acts). We don't need new special laws for the Internet. We may need minor adjustments to existing laws to take the Internet into account. We certainly don't need special protection for morons be they employer or employee.

    Are we really suppose to have sympathy for morons who don't know what they put on the net is public?

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  3. Well, no kidding! by holophrastic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just because it wasn't possible before to know what you're employees are like is not only not the point, it's also very much the point. On the first note, more information is a good thing. And you if can discover that your employee is whatever you consider weird, you're welcome to stop working with them. On the second note, if you can discover that your employee is whatever you consider weird, so can your clients. A public face is a public face, and if an employee intends to work in a job where that face matters -- i.e. the face of the company -- then yes, their on-line activities count just as much as their off-line activities.

    My father taught me this when I was six, and it rings true here. At a baseball game, some reporter was going around asking for public opinion regarding some baseball issue. My father denied the interview saying that he was the officer of a public communications company, and should not be presented publicly by this reporter; even on a matter as unrelated as his opinions on baseball.

    Now, I own and operate my own company. And yes, I look for good people to work with me. You'd beter believe I want them to be good people all-around. Their welcome to vent to me, and they can insult me to my face all they like. They can insult my clients to my face as well. But when they do anything that my clients can see, or to which my clients have access, they had better conduct themselves in a manner that I deem suitable.

    Right or wrong, if my client says that they don't like my employee, I take that very seriously. Accidents and general human error are acceptable in moderation. Disregard for my business -- even during off-hours -- is completely unacceptable.

    In my perspective, many employees (I don't mean only mine, I do in fact include many of my friends that work for others) consider their employment to be a right. No matter how good you are at your job, your employor has invested way more time and way more effort, and way more RISK into the business than you'll ever even consider for as long as you're an employee.

    You don't deserve squat -- that's why you get nothing but money for your time. You work is appreciated, but the intelectual property isn't yours, and the risk wasn't yours, and the value-rewards won't be yours. The clients aren't yours, the company isn't yours. There's an enormous risk in starting your own business, and it's a gigantic under-taking to maintain any business. Being a cog in the machine is worth the grease, and little more.

    My father would come home, after long days of negotiating some government contract for the communication company for which he worked. After a successful victory, he'd boast to his wife how he'd saved the company millions of dollars. She'd turn to him and say: "so, how much of it is ours?". Of course the answer is zero. That was his job, he did it well, he got paid as expected, plus or minus an annual bonus. The given victory meant nothing financially.

    Know that when you work for someone else, you get to avoid the many headaches that go into running a business and being accountable to an entity that you've created. Also know that when you go out on your own, you deserve all of the glory, credit, blame, and defeat.

    1. Re:Well, no kidding! by MeNeXT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't deserve squat -- that's why you get nothing but money for your time. You work is appreciated, but the intelectual property isn't yours, and the risk wasn't yours, and the value-rewards won't be yours. The clients aren't yours, the company isn't yours. There's an enormous risk in starting your own business, and it's a gigantic under-taking to maintain any business. Being a cog in the machine is worth the grease, and little more.

      And we wonder where loyalty went? With this attitude you'll get the employees you deserve.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    2. Re:Well, no kidding! by Bonker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't deserve squat -- that's why you get nothing but money for your time. You work is appreciated, but the intelectual property isn't yours, and the risk wasn't yours, and the value-rewards won't be yours. The clients aren't yours, the company isn't yours. There's an enormous risk in starting your own business, and it's a gigantic under-taking to maintain any business. Being a cog in the machine is worth the grease, and little more.


      And if you ever wonder why you're resented and hated by your employees, this is why. When you wonder why the employee loyalty your business needs (or you even crave) isn't there, this is the reason. You look at people as cogs in your machine and not fellows. They're there to be exploited and not to be part of the company.

      A business isn't one man or one man's risk no matter how much you'd like to put it in those terms. Your business belongs not only to you, but to everyone who works for you.

      Let's put it in realistic terms. Your client has a relationship with your company, and not just with you. He has a relationship with the salesmen who talk to him, the support people he calls when he's got a problem, and the people who manufactures the product he's buying.

      When you eliminate any one of those people for anything but the most important of reasons (no, not profit. The long-term survival of your company is what your eyes SHOULD be focused on) you are diminishing your company's relationship with that client.

      When your client says he has a problem with a single member of that team, you need to think long and hard about why. Is your client prejudiced? Is your client sane? More importantly, is your client looking out for your company's best interests? Almost certainly not.

      Don't agree? Fire your important employees and replace their jobs with cheaper, less-experienced people. 'Outsource' if you dare. Watch your clients start to complain. Their money is about to go elsewhere.

      Instead, why don't you learn to treat your employees as not only cogs in a machine, but individual people with cares and concerns of their own who are also important parts of your company? Your company's long-term health will show you the value of that. Profit will follow.
      --
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    3. Re:Well, no kidding! by commodoresloat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      supervise them. You spend all of your time taking what their willing to give, and knowing that it could be better. Rare is the case where your employee actually does something as well as you want them to do it because rare is the case that your employee could care less.
      I think this is exactly the grandparent's point. He/she said treat your employees like shit and they will give you shit work. Your response only confirms that that's exactly what happened.
    4. Re:Well, no kidding! by SashaMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And we wonder where loyalty went? With this attitude you'll get the employees you deserve. Exactly. Apologies for not having the reference, but I recall a study that showed that one of the highest predictors of business success as determined by earnings growth was the percentage of employees that had stock options (while, conversely, lavishing options on only top management had very little correlation with success).

      If you give your employees a vested interest in the success of your business then employee productivity will be much greater than if you treat them like "cogs."
    5. Re:Well, no kidding! by (negative+video) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The employee doesn't have any skin in the game.

      The market value of my stock and options currently equals two years of my salary, and that is with the price being hammered by distressed institutional investors. If I help deliver new products that impress investors, it goes straight to my personal bottom line.

      They can lose their job, and they can get another one.

      Not with a bad reference, or termination-for-mistake on the resume.

      Employees ... get no decisions, and they aren't responsible for their actions.

      Somebody should tell that to the scientists and engineers I work with, who have been known to invent new lines of business and start spin-off companies.

  4. Re:Whoa by phantomcircuit · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The real problem isn't that you post the pictures of yourself, it is that one of your "friends" posted them.

  5. Where to draw the line, though? by Token_Internet_Girl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I want to quote this first:

    If you do something in public in your own time, it can and will affect your employment and is of concern to your employer. No bank wants an employee that's a convicted fraudster. No school wants teachers who are porn stars. No police force wants an ex-con as an officer. The issue isn't whether you conduct these activities in your own time or not, or if the Internet was used. The issue is that you're in a trusted position, and that your employer may have the right to terminate your employment if they perceive a conflict of interest, or if something you've done or are doing in your spare time means you can't effectively do your job.

    I agree that "conflicts of interests" as mentioned above do have a right to be known to employers. However, when does this stop becoming an genuine effort to root out the so-called "stripper teacher," and become an threadbare excuse to fire someone for lack of conformity? Let me illustrate. I am always 110% work appropriate when I am on the job, however in my off hours I wear alot of piercings, I show tattoos, I like to go out and have drinks and hang with friends. There is, with today's digital camera boom, a good chance pictures will be taken of these activities in my off time. Now, if the place I work for is generally church going, khaki and polo button down straight edge family types, they might absolutely abhor my personal life, even though I don't bring it to work. Now the issue becomes, "if one worker doesn't fit the company image in and out of work, cut him loose." Can you see how easy the line between business interest and privacy can get blurred and abused? It feels like a door for socialized work places(sans government). Maybe I make a slightly paranoid case, but self expression is highly important to me; I'd hate to live half a life for fear of losing my job.

    --
    Sure baby, I'll give you my phone number...in Hex
  6. Contradicton by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful
    One thing that continually puzzles me is how a company can tell their shareholders/customers/government regulators that anything they do is fair so long as it lies within the letter of the law. Then they turn around and expect employees to adhere to a code of conduct that is more strict.

    I find that their sense of ethics is usually quite impaired.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  7. Re:Hmmm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Yeah this internet thing might end up having some impact on the world....

    A paragraph from the cited article:

    Employment law in most states provides little protection to workers who are punished for their online postings, said George Lenard, an employment lawyer at Harris Dowell Fisher & Harris in St. Louis. The main exceptions are workers who are covered by collective bargaining agreements or by special protections for public-sector employees; members of these groups can be dismissed only "for cause." The rest of us are "at will" employees, holding on to our jobs only at the whim of our employers, and thus vulnerable.

    .

    And for this, you can thank those who deride unions as "corrupt organizations, whose sole purpose was to aggrandize the union bosses".

    Yes, the statement may be true in some cases, but they did protect their covered employees from the "at will" horseshit. I worked for a company whose new management put the employee manual online on the intranet. Cute trick -- before you could look at what the provisions were, you had to click on a box following a statement saying that you agreed that you were an "at will" employee and could be dismissed at any time for any reason.

    Union employees could have told the company to stick the intranet up their asses and to provide a written, dated statement of employee rights and responsibilities.

    Most of you nerds should keep in ming that you're on call 24/7 or are working 50 to 60 hour weeks because those fine folks in your parents' generation who fought bloody battles for the 40-hour work week have been cast aside as "productivity-robbing parasites".

    As an exercise, everyone in an "exempt" position should divide their yearly salary by the appropriate number to see what their actual hourly wage is.

    I once was awarded a check large enough to be worth $500 after taxes for work "above and beyond" on a certain project. It felt nice until I added up the extra hours I'd put in and found out the cocksucking bastards had gotten me to work for about five dollars an hour.

    Goddamned self-serving pricks.

  8. now hold on just one minute.. who says it was me? by Animaether · · Score: 4, Insightful

    who says it was me (I) who put that video up?

    Here I am, enjoying my drunken rave - having a great time, I even leave my phone at home.. no disturbances for me this new years' eve.. just me, my friends, that cute girl I met and jello shots.

    A week later, I get fired, because my boss saw a video of it.. turns out the girl was his niece; go fig. Now what video? I don't know - I certainly didn't take any, let alone give it to him. Turns out that somebody else was shooting some video of their friends.. I don't know them, they don't know me, but I sure was in the background of their video.

    Not everything is a "babysitter caught doing drugs", but may still be something you don't really want to share with the world for whatever reason; but you don't always have a say in this yourself.

    So the solution is not so simple; unless you're saying that the real simple solution is to live puritan life 24/7 so that there is never a chance of anybody, anywhere, catching you doing things that might be perfectly acceptable in the situation you were in, but perhaps not so acceptable to your employer.. parents.. whoever/whatever.