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National ID Cards Mandated in the US, If You're Under 50
charleste writes "CNN is reporting that the US Homeland Security Department has mandated Real ID for drivers licenses. According to the article, this will not include a 'chip', but a list of options by state. Despite legislation passed in various states and objections by groups such as ACLU, this appears to be a done deal. Without one of the new IDs you will be unable to board a plane after 2014 if you are under 50."
1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
Under 50 is not a permanent exemption. After 2017, those over 50 will have to have a Real ID license as well. The additional 3 years for them was added so the states would have more time to issue everyone new licenses.
Regardless, if we don't want this then the states need to be firm in their opposition to it.
If every state (or nearly every one) opposes it, the DHS can't really do anything, unless they want to be the agent of the economy's collapse because no businesspeople can travel. If enough states do not oppose it strongly, then the ones who do will be forced to capitulate eventually, similar to the 21 drinking age.
Germaine Greer:
Security is when everything is settled. When nothing can happen to you. Security is the denial of life.
"I only speak the truth"
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Even more reason to get out and vote in November.
And BEFORE THEN. Vote now! Otherwise we usually get stuck with a lesser of two evils thing in the general election.
I'm very much against Real ID for all of the reasons discussed here on Slashdot: the possibility for ID theft, the possibility for inappropriate use of personal information, the possibility of tracking our movements, etc.
But here's what's particularly egregious about this plan: nobody over 50 will have to get a Real ID for nearly 10 years! If Real ID is so unbelievably necessary to our national security, how can we allow this segment to not have an ID? Should we stop scanning older individuals at the airport because they are "less likely to be a terrorist"?
The Bush administration has repeatedly refused to comment on waterboarding because they say they do not want the terrorists to know which interrogation techniques we use. Well, DHS is telegraphing to the world what sort of security techniques we use: Pssst! We only check people less than 50!
Stupid stupid stupid! Hypocritical, hypocritical, hypocritical!
It may be Godwin, but it's also Harper's Magazine... from 1941.
http://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/0020122
-theGreater.
So basically almost all politicians in the legislation will be exempt.
Nice...
1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
Actually, the appendex in "1984" IS an instruction manual.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
From the article:
The September 11 attacks were the main motivation for the changes.
First of all, I'd be willing to bet most people who lost someone dear to them in the tragedy of 9/11 is downright insulted by the constant abuse of the memory of their loved one as a tool to cudgel the American public into accepting laws which have no point other than to increase the power and pervasiveness of the Federal government. The 9/11 attackers all had legitimate IDs, so what possible purpose would this have served back then? We might have known the names of the guys that did it sooner after the fact? Yeah, I'm sure that would have come in real handy.
Frankly, I know there's nothing anyone can do to stop the REAL-ID ball from rolling, so I'd just be happier if they came out and admitted they just want the power trip.
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a national ID card if people want one.
When people are denied freedom of movement by the gov't when they don't have one is when it becomes a problem.
Also, exactly which problem is this designed to solve? And how is this the least intrusive method of the gov't achieving its goals.
In 2014, about 40% of the US population will be over 50. Even better, Osama Bin Laden himself would be excluded from this requirement.
No, the US (United States Government) does not need a way to prove who you are. Your friend, the loan shark, gets defrauded for reasons that are his/her own policy.
Liberty is not having to prove who you are, unless faced with a probable-cause affidavit. We have an additional presumption of being not-guilty; having mandatory ID thwarts that presumption based on identity.
Your presumption that the world of liberty is dead because you feel there's a need to finger everyone is fallacious. You deserve what you get.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" Ben Franklin. Fie on your suggestion.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I can think of other solid methods of identifying people, but I don't want to break Godwin's law. ...Unless I just did.
"I only speak the truth"
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Airport Security : Id Sir?
Me: Here you go
Airport Security : This is not a real ID, sir
Me: But I'm over 50.
Airport Security : No, you're not. You look like you are 15, not 50.
Me: But, my Id says I'm 50.
Airport Security : But its not a Real ID, could be a fake we only trust Real IDs.
Me: So I need to get a Real Id saying I'm 50 in order to prove to you that i don't need a Real Id?
Airport Security : Please Sir, step into this room and remove all clothing.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
Is it perfect? No. Is it in the interest of civil liberties? Nope. Is it a good step in a world full of people who would love to see you and I dead simply because of the country we were born in? You betcha.
Congratulations. The terrorists have won.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Not neccessarily. How are the everyday businesses you visit going to verify that the ID is a Valid ID and not just a good-looking forgery, unless they too have scanners that have access to said national database to query the card against? Or is it going to be like the cards/scanners mentioned in yesterday's story on anonymous drinking (too lazy to link)? In that case the bar-code is a simple open format that is easy to crack, and a mag stripe you can always demagnetize.
And just like bars today that swipe ID's, instead of making it harder to create a fake ID, It makes the people checking the ID's less observant and allows them to easily just rely on the technology. IOW's... It's another great way for the public as a whole to pop their head in the sand and say we are secure when in reality we've not really improved anything and possibly even removed some of the accountability people once had in preventing the fraud.
In a related bit..... Think about this.. What do you need to get a state issued ID? Social Security Card? Birth Certificate? Well.... What do you need to get a replacement Social Security Card? Not much other than filling out some paperwork and your Birth Certificate. Soooooo, what do you need to get you birth certificate? In many areas, you just need to go down to the local dept of health and request a copy of it. Not very hard to do at all. Even easier, you could use a service like VitalChek and not even have to show up in person to request the Birth Certificate......And that's assuming that you are using a real Birth Certificate. There isn't really any system set up where the DMV can verify that the certificate your giving them is officially issued. The only thing on them that "proves" they are real is a simple notery-style Official Seal crimped in the paper.
An ID system is only as strong as it's weakest link. And right now we have a MASSIVELY weak link in the process for birth Certificates which this is not changing. All this does (not including potential privacy concerns) is give everybody a warm fuzzy cause they think they are doing something to better the situation.
First you get an ID.
Then you need that ID to fly.
Then you need that ID to leave the country.
Then you need that ID to get into the country.
Then you need that ID to vote.
Then you need that ID to cross state borders.
Then you need that ID to buy gas.
Then you need that ID to be a legal citizen.
Slowly but surely, it will become a 'Show me your papers' issue. Imagine just walking down the street, a cop sees you, maybe he's having a bad day, maybe you roughly match the description of a wanted criminal, he approaches you and asks for you national ID. You don't have it though, because you were just going for a walk. Next thing you know, you're heading down town, handcuffed in the back of a crown vic. Sure, they'll let you out, once you can get a friend to bring your ID in, or go through the red tape to get the State to produce the paper work, but by that point you've been printed, your arrest has been recorded, and you're out a few hours to a few days getting everything straightened out.
Fear mongers will use it as a tool against illegal immigrants first. By requiring the national ID to be able to do the most mundane of things, they'll push aliens further out of the legal realm. Then all it would take is another attack to spur off a series of knee jerk reactions that lead to certain racial/ethnic groups having their cards pulled, leaving them as 2nd class citizens, virtually outlaws because they have no ID to prove their legitimacy in the US.
Yes, it's a paranoid delusion. But so was the idea that the US would use black site prisons, suspend habeas corpus, and invade a sovereign nation on manufactured intelligence. Given enough time, the system will be abused, and civil liberties will be eroded.
And the whole time, this card will do nothing to make our country more secure.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
Seriously people, I'm all for civil liberties, but theres nothing wrong with have a solid method of making sure people are who they say they are and verifying they are allowed to get the identification they are allowed to get.
There are several things wrong with this,
- Adds another layer of unnecessary bureaucracy to the monstrosity that is the US federal government.
- 10 years down the road the Federal government (needing health care funds) will sell/lease the database to the highest bidder.
- The database is subject to abuse by Federal employees.
- The war on the Islamic radicals is supposed to be temporary. Why restrict what your citizens can do permanently?
- The Government workers will somehow screw up the identities of John Smith in Oregon and John Smith in Georgia. And neither John Smith will be able to clear his name.
I was born here, I pay taxes (property, sales, federal), I own a home, I have kids. I think thats proof enough that I'm not a radical bent on destroying the United States. I should be able to go/do what I God dammed like without further proof. The Feds can kiss my Ass.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
Nowhere does this plan call for citizens to carry ID, nor does it affect anything other than driver's licenses.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Who else liked internal paper control? Hitler, Stalin, Mao... (and the Neocons/Neolibs now, apparently)
Part of the problem is that NI really is a nice tool in shutting out the undesirables (you can't get a job, you can't travel, you can't use banks, can't rent or even pay a lot of your bills unless the Govt says you can).
So yes, unfortunately National ID really does work against criminals. The question we should be asking is who decides who is a criminal (and can they be trusted).
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
So, the nose of the camel is already in the tent, so there is no point trying to stop it now? If anything we need to start the push the other direction and start trying to wake people up to the problems of 24/7 monitoring, before it becomes a reality.
Pull your heads out of your asses you fucking Yanks.
Yup, us Yanks have done a pretty good job of planting our heads up our collective asses recently. Sometime back after WWII we just sort of gave up on personal responsibility, we gave up on taking care of ourselves, we gave up on trying to keep our republic. And look where it has gotten us. We decided that we didn't want to be responsible for ourselves anymore, and we asked the government to do it for us. And, as is its nature, the government was willing to do anything to allow itself to expand.
It has been a death spiral ever since. The more bad things which happen, the more we run to the government to fix it; the government expands to try and do so, and fails because the solutions for most of our problems can only come from the people themselves taking responsibility for themselves and their communities. Undeterred by the continuous failure of government to actually solve social problems, the people keep running back to it and screaming, "fix it!" And the government continues to grow. Eventually, this will come back to haunt us. Eventually, the next step in government growth will be a police state and actual tyranny, and the US people will cheer its coming. It will be to later generations to suffer and die to throw it off again, but at least those with their heads up their asses will have a few brief days of serenity, believing that they are safe. Until the jackbooted thugs show up at their door in the night for thinking the wrong things.
We have a chance to stop this, and the time is now. It will be far easier to stop the growth of a police state, and deflate the government and put it back in its little box before it reaches the critical mass of tyranny. Right now, we still have some dregs of liberty left. We can still dissent, we can still speak our minds and we can still try and change things without the jackbooted thugs arriving in the night. How much longer that will last no one rightly knows; but, the time to fight is not when the boot is on your neck, the time to fight is when you are still on your feet and have a chance.
RealID is not, by itself, much of a threat. It is, though, a small piece in a much larger puzzle of out of control government tyranny. We don't resist it, deride it and try to stop it just because of itself. We do so because we can step back and see the much larger picture which is coming together, and it scares us. Stopping RealID won't stop that picture altogether either, but it will make it harder, it will create a disruption and that is good. Keeping our republic is not a matter of winning any one fight, it is a matter of a continuous struggle against anything which threatens any small piece of it. It is exhausting and will only end when we give up and let our republic die.
"Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?"
"A republic if you can keep it." --- Benjamin Franklin
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
Look 9/11 was a frightening day, because 30 minutes later and 50 stories lower and 50,000 people died. For the first time since the War of 1812, the US Mainland was hit in war. We were all generally terrified of becoming like Israel in the early 1990s at the beginning of the upswing that followed Oslo.
It's not the fear of a 3000 casualty hit and loss of buildings... it's the fear of something bigger.
The fact is Al Qaeda is relatively overblown. They may be the only group with a global reach, but their global reach isn't that significant. Think about it, they got 19 guys in to hijack planes when the assumption was don't fight hijackers, they generally let everything go peacefully. They hit two buildings, but before they were supposed to (they obviously wanted to simultaneously hit them after 9 AM to maximize damage), 30 minutes apart, and too high to maximize damage.
The fact is, for all the bluster of Islamic Terrorists, they haven't done anything impressive. The most impressive operation was Hezbollah's holding off of Israel, and even that was a joke. They claimed a military victory, but only in the Arab world can your land be occupied by a foreign power, you hold none of their territory, and your roads and bridges are destroyed yet you are victorious because it took more than a week to wipe you out. That, like 9/11, is overplayed. Israel retooled their military once they had a reminder that "surrounded by enemies" isn't just PR, it's real and requires your military be prepared for an actual war, not just policing malcontents in disputed land, and by the time people heard on the 4th plane that they weren't negotiating, they were blowing things up, the people on the plane took it over and ended the issue.
That said, we should keep an eye on things, because these people do just want to inflict lots of damage... fortunately they aren't that bright. If you haven't noticed, every middle eastern "nuclear weapons program," despite years of effort, somehow is always X years/months away, where X is always longer than the Manhattan project. I have no doubt that the Arab world has it's share of brilliant minds (they were the scientific leaders for centuries), but in the Arab world, decades of oppressive dictatorships have managed to kill or exile every independent thinker, and now they seem incapable of anything impressive, and their government projects are run by total morons.
If Al Qaeda had their act together, 9/11 would have been a start to a wave. Hitting soft targets every week would have caused massive financial collapse in America... if everyone was scared to go to shopping malls because bombs were going off weekly, consumer spending would have contracted and US economic might would have fell apart. Fortunately, the Islamic terrorists aren't that bright, and are more interested in big flashy things to make recruiting videos, not about actually waging war with the US. These movements need a steady supply of naive, bored young teenagers and 20 somethings, so their goal is projects that would be exciting to an upper middle class Arab youth that is bored with life.
Instead of living on daddies money and getting stoned in college while talking up socialism over the pizza put on the Gold Card, like their American counterparts, they can convinced to blow themselves up to fight the US/Israel/Zionism and martyr themselves. The terrorists #1 goal is recruiting more foot soldiers, actually hurting us is a distant second.