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National ID Cards Mandated in the US, If You're Under 50

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the 1984-is-about-the-good-old-days dept.

charleste writes "CNN is reporting that the US Homeland Security Department has mandated Real ID for drivers licenses. According to the article, this will not include a 'chip', but a list of options by state. Despite legislation passed in various states and objections by groups such as ACLU, this appears to be a done deal. Without one of the new IDs you will be unable to board a plane after 2014 if you are under 50."

20 of 869 comments (clear)

  1. Papers please by Chairboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.

    1. Re:Papers please by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, and just think what this is going to do to counterfeiting!

      Man in Black Coat in Alley: "Would you like a real fake ID or a fake Real ID?"
      Citizen: "Well, I'm only 18 so I need both."
      Man in Black Coat in Alley: "Very good, sir. Now, remember when you're buying alcohol, you're a 22 year old student named James Huffington from Rhode Island. When you're boarding a plane, you are Agnes Krakaour, age 51 ... you winter vacation in Florida and enjoy shuffle boarding and watching Matlock."
      Citizen: "Thank you so much!"

      --
      My work here is dung.
    2. Re:Papers please by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "Or better yet: Perhaps we should stop all of this Orwellian nonsense to begin with and just accept the fact that we live in a dangerous world and I'd personally rather have my civil liberties and live with that basic fact then trade them in for the illusion of security."

      Thank you!

      I gotta say, I dunno where all this fear comes from. Personally, I'm more afraid of the govt. screwing me over or a glitch in the system, preventing me from doing something (flying, entering public building, banking) than a terrorist blowing me up.

      I mean, the odds of something happening wrong with the govt. that I deal with quite a lot throughout my life is much greater than Habib lighting a fuze somewhere near where I'm standing at any given time.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Papers please by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 5, Informative

      "I don't recall reading that any of the 9/11 hijackers used fake IDs to get onto the airplanes. They obtained them quite legally. Perhaps we should be looking into reforming who can obtain a drivers license, rather then reforming the drivers license itself."

      Based on reading the article, it looks like most of the changes being made are not changes to the license itself, but to the process of obtaining them.

      It appears to me that this is not a "federal ID", but consists of the following:
      1) Requirements levied on the process of granting a person a drivers' license, in terms of verifying that that person is who they say they are.
      2) Requirements levied on the anti-counterfeiting features of that license.

      TFA states that a number of states already issue licenses that meet all of these requirements. For example, California residents will apparently not notice any difference except the point at which their picture is taken during the process of obtaining a license. From the looks of it, this will also not affect me, as my state (New York) already implements all of the process and anti-counterfeiting requirements levied here.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    4. Re:Papers please by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I gotta say, I dunno where all this fear comes from

      I'll give you a hint: "If we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again -- that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States" -Dick Cheney

      Seriously. Our own Government has done a lot more to make us afraid of terrorism then the terrorists themselves have done. How depressing that in 60 years we've gone from "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" to "Buy duct tape!".

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Papers please by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "How is this any different than without Real ID? What does Real ID change?"

      Because this now will be tracked on a national database. Now...all your movements will be tracked starting with air travel. Where you went, how long, etc.

      Next, who is to say what information is tracked? National healthcare? Maybe you are penalized in healthcare...since they now know you go to a bar 3 times a week. Cashing checks? Well, they can now associate what you buy each time...tsk tsk...you're still smoking, eh?

      Do you now have to swipe it each time you use a credit card? Why not...not an infringement...just 'proves' you are the person on the credit card. Heck..why bother with a separate card at all? The credit card companies just start using your swipe to assoc. with an account with them. Then all the nice databases are hooked together nicely, and a great picture of your life can then be assembled.

      But, what problems would that cause?? I mean, we've known the govt. doesn't make mistakes, especially ones that are near impossible to get cleared up in a reasonable amount of time, if at all. We all know there hasn't been anyone misuse their govt. powers to personally screw with someone life before...so, no worries there.

      I guess think of it this way. Have there been many laws passed for one reason, that haven't been used for other things? RICO laws used to be just for gangsters...they're being used in creative ways these days for numerous other prosecutions. Patriot act laws were just for terrorists, right? Haven't we seen slashdot articles already alluding to them now being used for less dangerous domestic infractions?

      Sure, I paint a slippery slope picture with what the RealID could lead to, with its national database...but, is it THAT far fetched? Who is to stop the next administration from adding a 'little more' functionality to the system?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:Papers please by daeg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This will stop no terrorist. Period. Terrorism is not solved by cracking down on citizens. Terrorism is only solved when you solve the underlying problem, e.g., typically a bad relationship between two cultures or groups. If we actually worked productively on our relationship with the middle east instead of being hypocrites and supporting terrorism ourselves we are practically begging to be struck again.

      Look at it this way: if Canada was supplying the South with weaponry to stir up tensions again to force another civil war in the US while at the same time decrying the London bombings, wouldn't you be a little pissed at Canada?

      Now imagine that, but stretched over decades from the United States, and hundreds of years from multiple European monarchies throughout the last thousand years.

      Am I trying to justify it? No. However, a bit of understand would go a long way to improve out relationships abroad.

      Sorry to rant.

    7. Re:Papers please by jamstar7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Muslim World ... Unless you plan on exterminating them all?

      Anyone have a problem with this?

      Yes. If (and that's a highly unlikely if,) this is 'managed to be done', what's to stop those doing the ordering from targetting the next group for elimination? And who is that group going to be? Catholics? Anglicans? Any so-called Christian sect that doesn't speak in tongues, handle snakes, consider Evolution and science to be a tool of the devil and that all knowledge outside of one book needs to be suppressed for 'everyone's own good'?

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  2. Headline/summary is slightly misleading by ravenspear · · Score: 5, Informative

    Under 50 is not a permanent exemption. After 2017, those over 50 will have to have a Real ID license as well. The additional 3 years for them was added so the states would have more time to issue everyone new licenses.

    Regardless, if we don't want this then the states need to be firm in their opposition to it.

    If every state (or nearly every one) opposes it, the DHS can't really do anything, unless they want to be the agent of the economy's collapse because no businesspeople can travel. If enough states do not oppose it strongly, then the ones who do will be forced to capitulate eventually, similar to the 21 drinking age.

    1. Re:Headline/summary is slightly misleading by Bud+Dickman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "That apartment in Canada is starting to look much better now."
      Here's the thing, I hear this stuff all the time from people who may or may not disagree with my point of view. My issue is that rather than fight to fix things, you're ready to pack it in and leave the country. What happens when you get to Canada and it's not perfect and you don't like something there - what country will you flee to? Or is that where you make your stand and actually try to bring about change?

      If someone tells me that they think the country is headed in the wrong direction and they're leaving, what reason do I have to listen to their thoughts on the matter? If they're so uncommitted to the country they're obviously not invested in the future of the country so their opinion means nothing to me.

      If the Vietnam War had been protested by this generation, it seems that the country would have emptied out and the war would have continued. Enough with the mindless talk of leaving because you disagree with what's going on. Either leave or start to do something about it.

  3. sigh by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Germaine Greer:

            Security is when everything is settled. When nothing can happen to you. Security is the denial of life.

    --
    "I only speak the truth"
    Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
  4. "Who goes Nazi?" by Dorothy Thompson by theGreater · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It may be Godwin, but it's also Harper's Magazine... from 1941.

    http://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/0020122

    -theGreater.

  5. under 50 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So basically almost all politicians in the legislation will be exempt.
    Nice...

  6. Directions included by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.

    Actually, the appendex in "1984" IS an instruction manual.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
  7. Re:OH NOES!! by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously people, I'm all for civil liberties, but theres nothing wrong with have a solid method of making sure people are who they say they are and verifying they are allowed to get the identification they are allowed to get.
    But what is the benefit? Remember that the 9/11 hijackers all had valid IDs -- identification would not have prevented that tragedy.
    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  8. Re:OH NOES!! by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, there is nothing wrong with a national ID card if people want one.

    When people are denied freedom of movement by the gov't when they don't have one is when it becomes a problem.

    Also, exactly which problem is this designed to solve? And how is this the least intrusive method of the gov't achieving its goals.

    In 2014, about 40% of the US population will be over 50. Even better, Osama Bin Laden himself would be excluded from this requirement.

  9. It's your reality, not mine. by postbigbang · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, the US (United States Government) does not need a way to prove who you are. Your friend, the loan shark, gets defrauded for reasons that are his/her own policy.

    Liberty is not having to prove who you are, unless faced with a probable-cause affidavit. We have an additional presumption of being not-guilty; having mandatory ID thwarts that presumption based on identity.

    Your presumption that the world of liberty is dead because you feel there's a need to finger everyone is fallacious. You deserve what you get.

    "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" Ben Franklin. Fie on your suggestion.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  10. Re:OH NOES!! by sconeu · · Score: 5, Insightful


    Is it perfect? No. Is it in the interest of civil liberties? Nope. Is it a good step in a world full of people who would love to see you and I dead simply because of the country we were born in? You betcha.

    Congratulations. The terrorists have won.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  11. Re:OH NOES!! by DCTooTall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not neccessarily. How are the everyday businesses you visit going to verify that the ID is a Valid ID and not just a good-looking forgery, unless they too have scanners that have access to said national database to query the card against? Or is it going to be like the cards/scanners mentioned in yesterday's story on anonymous drinking (too lazy to link)? In that case the bar-code is a simple open format that is easy to crack, and a mag stripe you can always demagnetize.

    And just like bars today that swipe ID's, instead of making it harder to create a fake ID, It makes the people checking the ID's less observant and allows them to easily just rely on the technology. IOW's... It's another great way for the public as a whole to pop their head in the sand and say we are secure when in reality we've not really improved anything and possibly even removed some of the accountability people once had in preventing the fraud.

    In a related bit..... Think about this.. What do you need to get a state issued ID? Social Security Card? Birth Certificate? Well.... What do you need to get a replacement Social Security Card? Not much other than filling out some paperwork and your Birth Certificate. Soooooo, what do you need to get you birth certificate? In many areas, you just need to go down to the local dept of health and request a copy of it. Not very hard to do at all. Even easier, you could use a service like VitalChek and not even have to show up in person to request the Birth Certificate......And that's assuming that you are using a real Birth Certificate. There isn't really any system set up where the DMV can verify that the certificate your giving them is officially issued. The only thing on them that "proves" they are real is a simple notery-style Official Seal crimped in the paper.

    An ID system is only as strong as it's weakest link. And right now we have a MASSIVELY weak link in the process for birth Certificates which this is not changing. All this does (not including potential privacy concerns) is give everybody a warm fuzzy cause they think they are doing something to better the situation.

  12. Give it time by RingDev · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First you get an ID.

    Then you need that ID to fly.

    Then you need that ID to leave the country.

    Then you need that ID to get into the country.

    Then you need that ID to vote.

    Then you need that ID to cross state borders.

    Then you need that ID to buy gas.

    Then you need that ID to be a legal citizen.

    Slowly but surely, it will become a 'Show me your papers' issue. Imagine just walking down the street, a cop sees you, maybe he's having a bad day, maybe you roughly match the description of a wanted criminal, he approaches you and asks for you national ID. You don't have it though, because you were just going for a walk. Next thing you know, you're heading down town, handcuffed in the back of a crown vic. Sure, they'll let you out, once you can get a friend to bring your ID in, or go through the red tape to get the State to produce the paper work, but by that point you've been printed, your arrest has been recorded, and you're out a few hours to a few days getting everything straightened out.

    Fear mongers will use it as a tool against illegal immigrants first. By requiring the national ID to be able to do the most mundane of things, they'll push aliens further out of the legal realm. Then all it would take is another attack to spur off a series of knee jerk reactions that lead to certain racial/ethnic groups having their cards pulled, leaving them as 2nd class citizens, virtually outlaws because they have no ID to prove their legitimacy in the US.

    Yes, it's a paranoid delusion. But so was the idea that the US would use black site prisons, suspend habeas corpus, and invade a sovereign nation on manufactured intelligence. Given enough time, the system will be abused, and civil liberties will be eroded.

    And the whole time, this card will do nothing to make our country more secure.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs