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Vinyl Gets Its Groove Back

theodp writes "Time reports that vinyl records are suddenly cool again. Vinyl has a warmer, more nuanced sound than CDs or MP3s; records feature large album covers with imaginative graphics, pullout photos, and liner notes. 'Bad sound on an iPod has had an impact on a lot of people going back to vinyl,' says 15-year-old David MacRunnel, who owns more than 1,000 records."

99 of 751 comments (clear)

  1. Oy vey by i_liek_turtles · · Score: 5, Funny

    You know your format is doomed if you consider a 15 year old your "expert" to quote.

    1. Re:Oy vey by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree. I'm sick of all this recent BS about how bad MP3 is. I downloaded severals albums in FLAC the other day to do an experiment. (I'm in Canada, and downloading is legal currently due to the levies we pay, so NYAH!) I did an experiment and encoded it into 245vbr MP3 and listened to both to compare. On most of it, I wound up losing track of which was FLAC and which was MP3. (This is on pretty decent headphones.) ONLY difference I noted was on one track there was 70's style guitar (Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, "Calypso Breakdown" if you're interested) and the MP3 DID lose the very VERY high end frequency on the guitar. Not enough to even really consider it was such a minimal difference. Certainly didn't detract from the song.

      Plus one big advantage with MP3 over even CD... YOU CAN'T SCRATCH AN MP3. I mean I love vinyl, I always will, I have tons of it in storage, but I'm also a realist. One mishap and you're precious vinyl is fucked for ever. Whenever I hear Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust", even after 25+ years, I STILL expect it to skip during the final chorus because my version got scratched there shortly after purchase. And, of course, MP3 won't break, warp in the heat etc... Vinyl may sound good, but it's a retarded format due to it's volatility.

      I've also got CD's that won't play properly due to a scratch being at just the wrong angle etc...

      Though I do find it funny that in the late 80's there was all that crap about the ink they use on CD's eating through the CD and rendering unplayable within seven years. Even made the mainstream media. Turned out to be utter garbage, surprise surprise. I've got CD's that are 20 years old and still play just fine.

    2. Re:Oy vey by foobsr · · Score: 2, Funny

      it's a retarded format due to it's volatility

      Like the 'Human' one is. But I am sure the military, at least, is working hard on a replacement.

      CC.

      --
      TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    3. Re:Oy vey by Dogtanian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Whenever I hear Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust", even after 25+ years, I STILL expect it to skip during the final chorus because my version got scratched there shortly after purchase. I don't know about that case, but don't you find you actually *miss* some of the defects?

      In some cases I actually did get used to them. The intro of "More of that Jazz" on my recording of Queen's "Jazz" album (tape of a ropey LP)- for example- skipped the first couple of beats on the drum intro and the song started in the middle of the phrase. I actually find this more interesting and familiar than the undamaged version; I think this is partly because I got used to it, but I also like the interesting effect on the timing.

      Other minor defects become part of the experience of listening to an album, just like listening to a cassette you got used to the silent preamble at the start of the tape- even down to the quiet leader giving way to the background hiss on the "proper" tape before the music came in.

      In general though, if you'd never grown up with- and got used to- these defects, they'd just strike you as annoying, and I don't want to romanticise vinyl damage (I was always a cassette boy anyway!... not that I'd want to go back to them, even though I think they got a bad rap from music snobs).

      I'm glad you mentioned the good quality headphones because- from what I'm aware of- the mediocre quality headphones and/or speakers that many people listen to music through can cover up many of the defects of MP3s.

      Although there probably are legitimate criticisms of MP3s, I also think that they're the audio cassettes of the 21st century- music snobs hate them, everyone uses them, and although they're probably not the highest-quality format, the problems are overstated. Yes, I've heard some 112/128mbps MP3s with obvious (and annoying) artifacts, but I suspect that this is down to either transcoding or simply a poor-quality encoder in the first place. I've got many MP3s that I ripped using NotLame at 128mbps, and they're actually okay. I'd use 192 or 256 nowadays, but the point is that you can't damn the format solely on the basis of a poor encoder alone.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    4. Re:Oy vey by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I think the real problem with the mp3 is they are being made from cds that have been butchered thanks to the loudness war and suffer from way too much compression to start with, whereas the vinyl records can't be overly compressed in that matter due to the nature of the medium.

      What we need is double sided cds with two versions of the album on them- on one side you'd have the compressed "radio" version, while on the other side you would have a "live studio" or "artist" mix, which would be closer to what you would have heard in the studio before the producers got ahold of it.

      And I'm shocked that as much as the RIAA likes to repackage the same music over and over they haven't thought of releasing "artist" versions of the cds for those of us who don't want everything turned to ten all the time. Thats my 2c, anyway.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    5. Re:Oy vey by gaderael · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In some cases I actually did get used to them. The intro of "More of that Jazz" on my recording of Queen's "Jazz" album (tape of a ropey LP)- for example- skipped the first couple of beats on the drum intro and the song started in the middle of the phrase. I actually find this more interesting and familiar than the undamaged version; I think this is partly because I got used to it, but I also like the interesting effect on the timing.
      Sounds sort of like my friend's "Pink Floyd - Meddle" album. She had found, and it had a cigarette burn on side on, creating a sort of bubble on side two, which contains the epic "Echoes" track. The song would play as normal until it got to the bubble. This was during the part in the song with the woman screaming. The bubble created a heartbeat effect, which actually went with the beat of the song. It elevated the song to a whole other level. Made the track even more epic.
      --
      Anyone got a light for my sig?
    6. Re:Oy vey by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm also sick over the ramant BS over how records sound better than CD. Jeebus these people are stupid.

      Let's see, to get the BEST sound out of a record, it needs to be NEW and pressed right, then you need a new and high end cartridge on your high end turntable that has lots of mass so that you dont get speed fluxuations. Direct drive with at least 8 pounds of rotating mass is best. now you need the tonearm weight set as light as possible without letting it launch, but not damaging the record.

      So finally after spending 3-4 grand to play that record you had better be very still, oh isolate that turntable and not turn it up loud as the vibrations get back INTO the music.

      Only raving lunatics think the old albums are better. Cripes I have no intereste in even unboxing that SME turntable from the 80's with it's $1000.00 309 tonearm. Properly mastered CD's on a $99.00 CD player kick the CRAP out of albums except for the very first play.

      The problem is there has not been a properly mastered CD released for nearly a decade so most of you dont have a clue as to what a good one sounds like.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    7. Re:Oy vey by donscarletti · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For people to whom music quality matters (those who "love" music), there IS a difference in sound. If you just "like" music, then you're probably not going to hear an appreciable difference.
      Music isn't about sound, it is about rhythm, melody, harmony, lyrics and attitude. A beautiful work is still beautiful even with its high frequencies muddied up and a pop every few minutes. If audiophiles find momentary breaks in fidelity distracting whereas others do not, then it is the audiophiles who cannot love music. People train themselves to assess the technology, to listen for artifacts and distortion, when there is music playing all they can hear from it is that the impedance of the left woofer's coil is not matched with that of the amp. Having a nice sound system is something to be proud of, being able to hear the problems in cheaper ones is not.
      --
      When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
    8. Re:Oy vey by Tilzs · · Score: 2, Funny

      Only raving lunatics think the old albums are better.

      That is probably accurate.

    9. Re:Oy vey by gladish · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't forget... Music lovers listen to music. Audiophiles listen to stereos. (Sorry can't site origin) They're always going to claim whatever is most expensive and least mainstream is the best.

    10. Re:Oy vey by Wog · · Score: 2, Funny

      That really depends on how much sun we're talking about, doesn't it?

    11. Re:Oy vey by mrbooze · · Score: 5, Funny

      Here's my theory about audiophiles obsessed with vinyl. They're like guys who think that if they store a woman properly and only have sex with her very carefully, she won't lose her virginity.

      Me, I like my music like I like my women: sturdy, affordable, and able to hold up to repetitive playing.

    12. Re:Oy vey by jumperboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sick of all this recent BS about how bad MP3 is. I downloaded severals albums in FLAC...

      And I'm sick of consumers thinking they are qualified to do A/B comparisons of audio formats. As a musician, I can tell you that they all pretty much suck. I compensate, tweak, & adjust endlessly to get the final digital master to sound the way I want. It's not perfect, but digital recording was a godsend compared to the analog equipment available in the same price range. There is simply no comparison.

      So, when the time comes to pick a distribution format, I'm painfully aware of the shortcomings, after hearing the source hundreds or even thousands of times. I don't care about unquantifiable metrics like "warmth", "nuance", or "presence". I've already taken care of that in my recording. I want to be able to switch between the master and the copy and not be able to detect any difference on the multiple playback systems I test. Beyond that, I only care about following a mastering standard that lets the consumer listen to an assortment of music without constantly adjusting the volume control.

      It's time for the Crappy Format A vs. Crappy Format B wars to end. It's hard to justify any data compression or audio degredation in light of today's available storage and bandwidth. As a consumer, I just realized I could rip all of my CD's onto a new hard drive in a lossless format at a trivial cost, with room to spare. Who knows? Then I might actually care about what sound card, D/A converter, amplifier, and speakers I use in my home entertainment system.

    13. Re:Oy vey by chance2105 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The problem is there has not been a properly mastered CD released for nearly a decade so most of you dont have a clue as to what a good one sounds like.
      Thank you.

      This point needs to be driven home. For people looking for high quality qudio, you only need to rewind back to when CDs were released - they were considered an audiophile's medium.

      Has it really been ten years since a well-mastered CD was released? I know otherwise. However, my parents came to me shopping for new audio gear. I suggested they bring 20 CDs they knew well to a sit-down listening of what new loudspeakers were available, hoping that one of them would be a "good" recording. Their recordings include a lot of easy listening, jazz, and otherwise off-the-beaten-path music, so I had hope.

      Not one of them weren't compressed and limited to the very extreme. Afterwards, looking through their collection of about 200 CDs, there were exactly *two* that respected good mastering - The Soundtrack to the Lion King, and Enya "The Memory of Trees". Two. From the 90's.

      Even re-released recordings of *oldies* on CD (my parents being their 70's) were compressed to completely numbing levels.

      Anyone thinking they can go to a record store and buy a high-quality product of anything "hip" or "popular" on CD are sorely mistaken.

      It's a damn shame.

    14. Re:Oy vey by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Either I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, or you're mixing up dynamic range compression (fairy dust) and file size compression (mp3).
      You may be misunderstanding. Compression (the Dynamic Range kind) has been a mainstay of popular music since before the digital age. It's usually used to bring up the quieter parts of the music so that it seems to have more "punch".

      Now, when mp3 players came out, the producers of popular music started applying even more of this dynamic range compression to bring up the softer parts of the mix. Part of that is because music is more often heard in noisy environments rather than a quiet listening room. If you ever tried to listen to Wagner on the subway, you'll know what I mean. You'll only hear the loudest parts.

      Yes, the data compression used can create artifacts of its own. But when you're talking about the way music is "mixed for mp3 players", you're talking about dynamic range compression.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    15. Re:Oy vey by bechthros · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "and what you or I consider "warmness" is actually "muddiness" to them."

      it's actually called even harmonic distortion (as opposed to odd harmonic distortion, which tends to sound "harsh")

      regardless, it's distortion, which is to say that it is not the most accurate reproduction of the original as possible. and, what us engineers strive for at every stage of the game, is 100% accurate reproduction. high fidelity, to coin a phrase. while some even harmonic distortion can be aesthetically desirable, and is often added during mastering or applied judiciously and sparingly to individual tracks during mixing, we want absolute control of where and when in the recording process it's added. which is why many of us prefer operating in the digital domain, where it can be controlled, as opposed to the analog domain, where it cannot.

  2. "Suddenly"? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We've only been hearing this since about the day after the first CD player came out.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:"Suddenly"? by piltdownman84 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I too wonder about "suddenly". Where I am Vinyl has been really big again since about 2000. Hell I'd say Vinyl is dieing down again. It was incredibly trendy for a couple years, everyone had a collection, but now it seems only to be music snobs.

      I don't know if they actually sound better, but I personally just love the physical action of putting on a record.

    2. Re:"Suddenly"? by badasscat · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know if they actually sound better, but I personally just love the physical action of putting on a record.

      They can sound better if you have a good turntable with a good cartridge, a good preamp and amp, and good speakers that are capable of resolving the differences between digital and analog audio. The problem is, you're talking about $20,000 worth of high-end audio equipment there.

      And that's not taking into account wear and tear. Vinyl degrades with each use; there is no getting around it. You're putting two physical parts in contact and moving them against each other; over time, your records will sound worse and there is nothing you can do about it.

      People who make blanket statements about vinyl sounding better just haven't taken real-world considerations into account. In the real world and under most conditions, a 128kbps mp3 played on an iPod is probably going to sound better than a well-worn vinyl record of the same recording.

    3. Re:"Suddenly"? by cbreaker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People have been trying to sell me on "they sound better" forever. It's bull. A CD can accurately store (slightly) more dynamic range than our ears are capable of hearing. Anyone that claims vinyl sounds better actually prefers the slightly distorted sound that they tend to produce. Some people actually think that Vinyl can reproduce sound that we can't hear, yet we can "feel" and that's why it's better. Crazyness.

      I prefer accurate reproduction. Which, actually, is why I believe CD's may be the last good medium for delivering music. I might sound like a snob by saying it, but I won't ever pay for lossy compressed music, ever. Not when CD's with no compression and much higher fidelity had already been available for two decades. Sound quality is supposed to advance, not the other way around.

      Vinyl is cool, and has it's place, but better than a CD? Naa.

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    4. Re:"Suddenly"? by mfnickster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They can sound better if you have a good turntable with a good cartridge, a good preamp and amp, and good speakers that are capable of resolving the differences between digital and analog audio.

      Oh, and that's assuming the LP wasn't digitally mastered. If it was, then the point is moot - the vinyl can't capture anything that wasn't in the digital master.

      --
      "Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
    5. Re:"Suddenly"? by thesupraman · · Score: 5, Interesting


      And where exactly do you think the noise floor of a real LP player is?

      That is after all all we are talking about, although I have doubts that that is often appreciated.

      Of course, on a modern CD you are missing a lot of the harmonic distortion, random noise, and limited (yes, go look at the actual figures) high and low frequency response of a normal LP, but hey, who needs them.

      MP3 is in a lot of ways a good match to vinyl, it actually tracks a lot of the same problems rather nicely.

    6. Re:"Suddenly"? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If there really was a need for better audio, we'd have Blu-Rays filled with 192KHz/24bit/8ch LPCM that vinyl could not possibly begin to compete with. The audiophiles that think vinyl really is better is on crack, but I guess that's redundant once I said audiophile. I think most people like vinyl because it sounds like vinyl with distortion, hiss, cracks and pops, it's what gives it personality and charm.

      Digital is utterly neutral, cold and perfect every time. I'm not sure exactly why, but people seem to prefer live musicians over a CD at any form of gathering even though it'll almost certainly be less perfect than the CD. I'm not talking about concerts which are a social event in itself but all sorts of celebrations and parties that would be just the same without the band. I think it's something of the same, they don't want a perfect rendering of the music, they want a personal one. There's something to a record that you know every nook and scratch on. You just can't that kind of attachment to a CD.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:"Suddenly"? by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you think it's weird... well, ok; with like, a rock band? Yeah, I don't know how much difference there is (I've never been to a rock concert). But as a classical musician myself, I can say that the live performance is so, so, so much better than a recording. My ears pick up even more depth in the sound of the instrument itself, let alone the actual music and harmonics that go on ... not harmony, but the harmonics, harmonic series, all that stuff. I don't know if the recording or the speakers are the typical culprit, but a live performance sounds amazingly better; especially when you take into account the natural acoustics of the room that you're in and everything. I'm not an audiophile in the recording-listening sense, but dude... when it comes to hearing a symphony live or recorded, live is so much better.

      Interestingly, soundtracks and the like have kinda dumbed down the typical listener of classical music, those are digitally remastered to a high degree to be made to sound really full... fuller than you could get live; but the fullness takes away the clarity and the nuance in the music that I love. And the difference between a recording and a live performance is, I think, even more detectable when it's a small group... say, a string quartet. When you hear the sound of one instrument live vs. that instrument recorded, you can hear the difference. It's like looking at a picture of a sunset and actually being there; yeah, you can photoshop it all you want, there's just something not alive about a picture (a "recording") of something vs. the actual thing.

      Again, I'm really not sure about contemporary music that uses electronic instruments anyways... this is strictly about classical, acoustic instruments.

    8. Re:"Suddenly"? by Palpitations · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The idea of buying a good turntable and purchasing some viynl records intrigued me, as I like to explore different interesting things like that--until I saw the price tag. $10,000+ for a high quality turntable setup, with the best setups costing $50,000+? While I would buy a setup like that if I had money to burn, it's absolutely not needed. I use a Technics SL1200MK5 Turntable (about $450-480) and Ortofon Concorde cartridges (about $125-140), played through an old, very modest amp and speakers. None of it is anywhere near audiophile quality - the turntable and cartridges are from years spent as a DJ - and the results are great.

      The enjoyment I get out of it isn't just about the audio quality (although in some cases it is much better on vinyl). It's hard to explain, but the act of digging through a crate full of records, handling the vinyl, dropping the needle, even the light crackling sound you get on old records during the silent moments, it all adds to the experience. It's much more involved than just dropping in a CD or playing a file.

      And, as a great bonus, you can pick up all sorts of old music you otherwise wouldn't have heard for pennies at a pawn shop, thrift store, Goodwill, etc. I made a habit of going through the records at thrift stores, buying anything with an album cover that interested me or made me laugh. Most of it was horrible, but for anywhere from 50 cents to $1.99 each you're not out much.
    9. Re:"Suddenly"? by aitikin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have never met a single individual that, when faced with a good vinyl sound system versus an equal CD system, did not prefer the vinyl. Granted, this is a very hard thing to do double blind, but even so, most people comment that they prefer the vinyl, whether they realize it's vinyl or not.

      You say that "audiophiles that think vinyl really is better is on crack" which tells me that you've never heard a good quality audio system, be it vinyl or digital. Digital maybe cold, but perfect every time just might be an overstatement. Vinyl records have a different feel to them, yes, but most people that really want to hear every little thing want vinyl. This may be due to the fact that vinyl is almost always mastered very differently than CDs, but it doesn't change the fact that a CD is just an attempt at improving over cassette tape so that there was something portable that sounded good enough.

      I, for one, pray that vinyl makes a good comeback. After all, now that we have MP3 players all over the place, we don't need CDs to be portable, so now people can take a vinyl, rip it to their iPod or whatever they have, and enjoy the music on the road. It'd be even better because there is no feasible way to DRM vinyl so everyone would be better off.

      --
      "Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
    10. Re:"Suddenly"? by Technician · · Score: 5, Informative

      They can sound better if you have a good turntable with a good cartridge, a good preamp and amp, and good speakers that are capable of resolving the differences between digital and analog audio.

      The ones I laugh at are the ones who get a USB turntable because they don't like digital sound and want the analog experiance.

      They get better sound simply because most vinyl isn't in the loudness war to kill the dynamic range. A CD with about 96 DB of dynamic range should sould better than the about 65 DB dynamic range of a turntable. Unfortunately the advantage of the CD format is often engineered out to sound louder.

      The irony is a USB analog turntable outputs a digital signal on the USB cable. Often the sample rate is the same as a CD. Even more often they are sold to the clueless without even listing the sample rate or bits. Quick, can you tell me if this is an 8 bit, 16 bit, 24 bit, sample size at 16K, 44.1, 48, 96, 128 Ksamples/sec?
      http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/mp3/90a0/
      They advertise it on a geek website without posting the important specs.. Guys, what's the wow & flutter and rumble levels?

      For me, I'm sticking to my 1980's moving coil linear track turntable with a good reciever plugged into a quality mixer (to set levels) which is then fed into a pro USB a/d converter. I capture at 96KHZ 24bit and downconvert to CD quality to burn CD's. It works for me.

      Here is another USB turntable with no specs listed.
      http://www.amazon.com/Ion-iTTUSB-Turntable-USB-Record/dp/B000BUEMOO
      and another;
      http://www.amazon.com/Numark-TTUSB-Turntable-with-USB/dp/B000G3FNVM

      Here is one that is reviewed and the A/D stats are known..
      The sound quality was as good as can be expected from old, scratchy records. The built-in audio card records 16-bit at 44.1khz
      http://reviews.cnet.com/turntables/stanton-t-90-usb/4505-7860_7-32417457.html
      Wow, no better than CD quality...

      Some of these turntables get poor marks for their conversion to digital quality.
      "The TTUSB10 as a Turntable
      After my disappointing experience with the TTUSB10 USB turntable's recorded sound quality, I plugged it into the phono input in my stereo, hoping for some sweeter sounds. This time around, the TTUSB10 did not let me down: smooth, rich audio came through the speakers and my test headphones without a trace of the harsh digital noise that plagued my test recordings. It would be a bit of a waste of money just to buy it as a standard turntable, but if nothing else, the TTUSB10 makes for an excellent unit for playing your vinyl music collection on your stereo system."
        http://www.everythingusb.com/ion_ttusb10_usb_turntable_13231.html

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    11. Re:"Suddenly"? by node+3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're confusing compression with downsampling. No, I'm not.

      CDs are not compressed. Yes, they are.

      Down-sampling is a *form* of compression, and it is one of the forms CDs employ (another main form is to reduce the resolution which is completely distinct from downsampling). In fact, it's a form a lossy compression. Which is exactly what I stated.

      Yet another form of compression employed on CDs is dynamic range compression, which results in significantly reduced quality (far worse than the amount of downsampling and reduced resolution employed on audio CDs, interestingly enough), but is not inherent to the format and wasn't really brought up in my post. I only bring it up now to demonstrate at least *three* ways audio CDs are compressed.
    12. Re:"Suddenly"? by eggnoglatte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, but CAN contain (most of) everythign that was in the uncompressed, finely quantized digital master but didn't make it into the MP3 or the dynamic range compressed CD release.

    13. Re:"Suddenly"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Umm, just a slap with a clue stick here, but I always recorded each album to either cassette or reel-to-reel tape on the first play, put the album back and that was it, end of story.

      Indeed. Vinyl is so great that you'll only listen to yours once. That's awesome. It can remain in mint condition on the shelf, and as long as you can simply retain the memory of having listened to that great recording decades ago, it'll be wonderful.

      It must be great to live in a fool's paradise. How's the weather there?

    14. Re:"Suddenly"? by flyingsquid · · Score: 5, Funny
      Vinyl? Give me a freakin' break. Vinyl is for pussies. REAL audiophiles use wax cylinders. And we only use organic beeswax, gathered from our own honeybee colonies, which feed exclusively on a diet of Brazilian orchid nectar. Anything else and you're just an amateur.

      Some people will say it costs too much, but I disagree. Sure, building the audio system of my dreams cost $750,000, not to mention my job, my house, and my marriage. But my system makes Britney Spears sound like fucking Beethoven!

    15. Re:"Suddenly"? by Yetihehe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Have you ever listened to ipod on a GOOD speakerphones? If you have standard iphone phones, you can't even start whining about how bad mp3 sounds, because difference between thosa and better speakerphones for about 50$ is much higher than between mp3 and cd.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    16. Re:"Suddenly"? by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, but CAN contain (most of) everythign that was in the uncompressed, finely quantized digital master but didn't make it into the MP3 or the dynamic range compressed CD release.

      That is the real problem. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_wars.
      If a CD is released without dynamic compression, it will sound fine.

      Several years ago, the german HiFi magazine Stereoplay made an experiment to determine if the digitizing as such makes an audible difference. They took a high quality analog recording and played it two different ways:
      1) Directly from turntable to amplifier and from there to loudspeaker, no digital equipment involved.
      2) Somewhere in between, the signal went into an A/D converter and from there into a D/A converter. The other components were the same as in 1).
      In a blind test (cannot remember if it was double blind) the test audience could not determine a difference. The equipment was quite high-quality BTW, they definitely used one of the $20.000 or more rigs that are often quoted as being necessary for hearing the differences.

      Also, Vinyl is not immune against someone compressing the digital master before the recording is transferred to vinyl. Expect such stupidity to happen shortly ;-)
      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    17. Re:"Suddenly"? by Dogtanian · · Score: 5, Funny

      But my system makes Britney Spears sound like fucking Beethoven! What does Britney Spears fucking Beethoven sound like anyway?
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    18. Re:"Suddenly"? by Conanymous+Award · · Score: 3, Funny

      "What does Britney Spears fucking Beethoven sound like anyway?"

      Dunno, but I'm sure those "ohs" and "yes's" and "ja's" sound warmer and more nuanced on vinyl than in some crappy compressed digital format.

    19. Re:"Suddenly"? by pla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They can sound better if you have a good turntable with a good cartridge

      Not to disagree with someone on the same side of this issue, but... No, they most certainly cannot sound better. Regardless of quality, a mechanical stylus has something that a CD's laser does not: inertia in its plane of movement/measurement. That alone limits both the dynamic range and frequency response of vinyl (or any mechanically-sampled waveform) to well under what a CD offers (and not even in the same ballpark as DVD-A).

      That said, turntables with a laser "stylus" do exist - But these two cannot physically match the quality of a CD, for one simple reason - The vinyl master also used a mechanical stylus to lay down the track.



      I get so sick of this discussion coming up every few months. I sincerely have to wonder whether to attribute the problem to ignorance or hipster-pretense. This shouldn't remain an open issue like religion or VI-vs-Emacs - We have a very measureable difference between the two mediums, and vinyl fails any way that you look at it. It simply cannot reproduce a waveform as accurately as CD audio, end of story.

    20. Re:"Suddenly"? by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Rock concerts are usually performed in hockey arenas and football stadiums, with terrible acoustics. The only reason to go to a rock concert is to experience the atmosphere, and be part of the show. You don't go to a rock show to listen to high quality music. Classical concerts on the other hand are often performed in acoustically correct music halls, designed by sound engineers to ensure that everything has exactly the right effect on the sound of the music. Also, you generally don't get bumped around by the guy standing next to you, or have him saying "I love you Angus" in your ear. You don't go to a rock concert to listen to music.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    21. Re:"Suddenly"? by multisync · · Score: 2, Insightful

      when I bought an album, the very first play went onto tape


      I still do that for my CDs and DVDs - rip 'em and put the originals away. Mostly for convenience - I like being able to access my media from anywhere in the house, but discs are just as easy to damage as LPs were, not to mention those crappy jewel cases!

      Another thing people sometimes don't consider until it's too late: buy some of those plastic storage containers and store your CDs, DVDs, LPs, photos, love letters and other irreplaceable objects in them. People will often keep their most precious items in cardboard boxes in the basement. If you have a flood, guess where the water goes? Fires as well - they use a lot of water putting those things out, and smoke causes a great deal of damage too. Of course, if you house burns completely to the ground this isn't going to help, but the majority of "losses" in these instances are not total. Just that something is so badly water damaged, or stinks so badly from smoke, that it can no longer be enjoyed.

      Just a word of advise from someone who has seen a lot of people lose things that may have had little monetary value, but were irreplaceable to them.
      --
      I don't care why you're posting AC
    22. Re:"Suddenly"? by philicorda · · Score: 4, Informative

      Down sampling is down sampling, not lossy compression.

      If it was the same as lossy compression, then that would imply would data on the CD would be uncompressed on playback to provide some resemblance to the original high sample rate master.

      This does not happen on CD, as the missing information from the original master is irretrievably lost. There is no decompression on playback, and so no extra information is generated.

      If you take a picture and remove half the pixels, you have not compressed it, you have removed half the pixels. This is equivalent to downsampling. There is no way of getting those missing pixels back.

      If you use a compression scheme that allows assign more data to those pixels are more important to the way humans perceive images, you have used lossy compression. You can increase the perceived quality of the image after decompression.

      Lossy compression also implies a trade off between human perception and available bandwidth. As perception does not factor in linear PCM audio, you cannot say CD uses lossy compression.

  3. Not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... That a guy who owns 1000 records justified his stupendous outlay by making blanket statements that compressed digital audio sounds bad.

    And then the audiophile jargon of "nuanced" etc etc... What a load of crap.

    1. Re:Not surprising... by croddy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Certainly, some very well-made pressings can sound outstanding, even better than digital in a few cases. But the poorer signal-to-noise ratio, essentially unavoidable surface wear, and the distortion introduced by the medium, on balance, make digital a better choice when the highest quality audio is needed. One thing records do have going for them is that they tend to be mastered, counterintuitively, with a wider dynamic range than contemporary CDs. Of course, this is a product of human decisions, not the media, and the optimal solution to this is simply to abandon the current practice of excessive compression and limiting on CDs, as they offer a greater potential for dynamic range than records.

    2. Re:Not surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      What's even more amusing is that almost all vinyls pressed today are mastered off the final digital master.

      Most music is recorded digitally and then mastered digitally. The vinyl records pressed use a digital master. Now the digital master used is almost certainly of higher quality than version pressed onto a CD, but still - records are still an analog copy (of the original analog master) of a digital master.

    3. Re:Not surprising... by Niten · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One thing records do have going for them is that they tend to be mastered, counterintuitively, with a wider dynamic range than contemporary CDs. Of course, this is a product of human decisions, not the media

      That's it exactly. A hot CD doesn't do justice to bands like Arcade Fire, so I'm willing to go out of my way to get the vinyl versions of certain albums even if it means I now have to worry about things like dust and needle wear. I'd prefer that the studios just digitally master these things correctly in the first place, but that's not going to happen as long as the engineers feel compelled to make their songs sound the "loudest" on the radio; and that won't stop until we can agree on a way to normalize the volume levels of CDs and other digital media.

      There's a great YouTube video on this subject: "The Loudness War"

    4. Re:Not surprising... by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's why I get all my recordings on wax cylinders!

    5. Re:Not surprising... by Divebus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Anybody remember the Telarc digital recording of the 1812 Overture released on Vinyl? They used real cannons and the cannon shots were so loud, they had to dramatically increase the groove pitch in that area of the record to accommodate the waveform. It would have crossed over six grooves or so if they hadn't.

      That record was literally a stereo killer. I saw phono cartridges lose the diamond tip or jump out of the groove when it hit that spot. Power amp fuses blew. Speakers were damaged etc. The only way I could capture it to tape was to play the record at 16 RPM, record the tape at 15 IPS and play it at 7.5 IPS (yes, there was a slight pitch shift but so what).

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
    6. Re:Not surprising... by Whiteox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yup. I've got it.
      I ran it on a Rega Planar 3 turntable with a Decca cartridge (cranked up to 2.5 grams) into a Radford amp and (at the time), some JBL 55 speakers that I borrowed from the local hi-fi shop for a free "in home demo".
      I took the covers off the JBL's, pointed them in my direction, sat on a bean bag about 8ft away, warmed the tubes and dropped the arm gently about 3 mins before the cannons.
      BOOM! I felt the puffs of air from the enclosure ports about a sec after the sound -
      BOOM! More puffs of air..
      HISS CRACK BOOOM! The woofers were really trying to loose their cones on that one!
      I took them back and bought some Warfdales instead. Nice speakers while they lasted. ;)

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    7. Re:Not surprising... by philicorda · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's also interesting is that even for many records that were recorded and mastered entirely analogue, they still have been put through 16/44.1 ad/da conversion.
      This conversion is necessary because a one revolution digital delay line is used so the variable groove width spacing can be calculated in advance while the record is being cut.
      It has been common to use digital delays for this since the first decent lexicon ones appeared some time in the early '80s. Before that, they would use a tape delay. Yikes!

  4. echo....echo....echo by ILuvRamen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Didn't we just read some equally idiotic bullshit on slashdot about vinyl making a huge comeback because of it's many superiorities. Okay here's something to consider. Digital music sounds the same every time you play it. You hit the seek button and the next track plays. It outputs at speaker level. It doesn't degrade on your hard drive and the file can't melt in the sunlight. I know of one band that releases their songs on vinyl and since my dad's a DJ about ten thousand that don't. What a stupid story. You could even call it anti-geek since we're all into...oh you know, technology and stuff. I haven't heard a hurray for punchcards post recently. If you're going to retro-updgrade to something ancient that doesn't sound like crap, go with WAV

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    1. Re:echo....echo....echo by The_Wilschon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hurray for punchcards?! When you were my age, we had to make our own paper if we wanted punchcards! With our teeth! In the snow! And we liked it!

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    2. Re:echo....echo....echo by dezert_fox · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not true. Many people like to make this claim, but analog records have physical limitations as to the frequency content they can record. There is a noise level which limits the accuracy of recordings done on records, just as there is an associated noise power from continuous->discrete conversion in the A/D process. You can create digital recording which retain more of the originally produced sound than an analog record possibly can with increased sampling rates and low noise electronics.

    3. Re:echo....echo....echo by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yup. 24-bit precision gives you almost 17 million values. Assuming a total groove width of 2 mil (50 microns), the maximum excursion is physically bounded at about half that or you'll end up with the cutter over in the next groove... maybe a little more, but not much. So 50 microns of width divided by 17 million gives ups about 3 × 10^-12 meters, or about 0.03 angstroms....

      Now, to put that in perspective... The estimates I've seen for the diameter of a hydrogen atom are about 1 * 10^-10 meters, give or take. That would make the resolution of a 24-bit digital signal equivalent to an analog cutter whose resolution is just about a 30th the width of a hydrogen atom... well beyond what the laws of physics allow.

      A typical particle of PVC, as best I could ascertain from a quick web search, would be 100,000 times as large. This puts vinyl at about 10-11 bits of resolution, practically speaking. Don't get me wrong, I think vinyl sounds better than CDs in many cases, but that's because of awful digital mastering practices---overcompressing the signal, audio engineers who can't hear above 12kHz doing the mix, overhyped highs and lows to compensate for craptastic sound systems, etc. It's not because vinyl is inherently better; it's because audio production from the vinyl area was inherently better. Don't get me started on the Disneyana AutoTune-until-your-ears-bleed style of recording we're getting out of the industry today. When it comes to an audio delivery format, there's a certain degree of "garbage in, garbage out" at work.....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  5. Sure, harder to rip... by croddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The music industry, hoping to find another revenue source that doesn't easily lend itself to illegal downloads, has happily jumped on the bandwagon.

    I am sure the fact that records wear out with repeated plays also contributed to their excitement over this trend. But hey, records are something I can't make at home. I would be more than happy to see the music industry shrink away to one that only manufactures records. At the moment they seem to manufacture mostly ill will.

    1. Re:Sure, harder to rip... by croddy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course you could, theoretically, spin records at a faster speed and then pitch them down in software if you want -- but if you are going to transfer a record to digital, it is usually a better plan to record them at a slower speed and then pitch them up in software, as you'll have more samples available for each second of audio. Software like Audacity even includes processing presets for doing pitch manipulation among standard record speeds -- this is why the 33/45 turntable that Thinkgeek offers, for example, is marketed as being capable of transferring 78rpm records, even though it is not capable of playing them in real time.

  6. This is true... to an extent by AthenianGadfly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem with claims like this is that they're not falsifiable in any meaningful way. Of course it can be argued that vinyl is "warmer" and more "nuanced" - all depending on your definition of "warm" and "nuanced". What is true is that when accurate reproduction of the source sound is the goal, digital is used nearly exclusively.

    This is entirely separate, of course, from the issue of the quality of compressed sound files, such as those most commonly found on iPods. Depending on the algorithm and the amount of the compression used, it can certainly have a dramatic influence on the sound quality - in some cases making it clearly lower quality than records.
  7. This article is a bit late by Freaky+Spook · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been involved with club and event promotions in Melbourne for about 6 years.

    When I first started out, all the DJ's across Trance/House would only DJ with Vinyl and CD's were unheard of. In the past 12-18 months though that's all changed. Vinyl sales are down as DJ's and enthusiasts are all moving to CD's. CDJ's are now excellent quality and offer much more dynamic mixing abilities with better effects, beat matching and looping and sampling.
    At the same time, tracks being produced are instantly available on MP3 which allows DJ's to purchase fresh hits the day the producer is happy with it, other then having to wait for tracks to be pressed to vinyl.

    I believe this trend has followed Europe where they have been progressively been moving away from Vinyl in the past 2-3 years.

    Vinyl is still excellent, I still love to collect it, but technology has finally caught up in the club scene where MP3 and digital music now offers much much more advantage to the DJ, especially in price. Buying 5-6 new records per week to play in clubs is expensive, when you can buy the same tracks for 3-4 dollars each online and burn them to CD.

    1. Re:This article is a bit late by rHBa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, in the UK anyway, a lot of DJs prefer to use one of the vinyl midi controllers (such as Serato or the new Native Instruments hardware with Traktor) because it offers more hands-on control than CDJs, offers all the features of a professional DJ mixer regardless of the facilities available at the venue and also saves the cost/effort of burning MP3s to disk.

      Another popular alternative (used by a lot of 'big names' such as Coldcut, Pete Tong, Sasha, Richie Hawtin, Daft Punk etc) is mixing straight from your laptop using Ableton Live, this is more like bringing your recording studio to the nightclub and doing a live remix.

  8. Please... by His+Shadow · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Could we bring back the 8track as well? The anticipation of waiting to find out which song was going to get chopped by the track change was a real charmer.


    It also never occurred to me that pops and clicks were really part of a "nuanced" sound, and not the inevitable failure of an archaic mechanical playback process.

    --

    Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos

  9. But punched cards are best by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 5, Funny

    >I haven't heard a hurray for punchcards post recently.

    Newer technologies just don't give programs the same nuanced performance and octagonal algorithms as punched cards. The clean edges of a punched bit totally rule over the bits on magnetic media that require a dedicated computer just to recover them from the noise. All that extra work to reconstruct a bit makes them tired, and fatiguing to debug.

    Face it: programs run off hard disks just have grainy memory usage and an indistinct sound stage.

    But punched cards are a distraction from the real issue, which is that only a vacuum tube computer can do justice to the best algorithms.

  10. One Cannot Identify With An Infinite Supply by Effugas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If someone has a thousand albums on MP3, whatever. It doesn't say anything about them. They spent a night raiding P2P. Big deal.

    If someone has a thousand albums on Vinyl, it's a different story. You think something of him. Maybe good, maybe bad, but you can expect him to rather deeply identify himself by his music. Each record was individually chosen, to the exclusion of others. Time was invested, thought was expressed, identity is reflected.

    And that, of course, is what not just Vinyl, but the entire shared music experience is really about. Music is more than bits. Music is more than waves of air lapping or pounding at one's eardrums. Music is, or at least can be, about identity. That a fifteen year old kid is desperately trying to assert his should surprise absolutely nobody here.

  11. For sound quality... by Chysn · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...there's no beating half-inch reel-to-reel. Vinyl, pfft.

    --
    --I'm so big, my sig has its own sig.
    -- See?
  12. Vinyl is an awful medium by Mopatop · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't want to go in to it now, but there is a massive laundry list of problems with vinyl. A bit of research brings up bizarre phenomena such as pre-echo and warbling, and it has severe problems with fidelity and stereo separation. Your record sounds worse the further towards the inside that the needle travels!

    My personal vendetta against vinyl stems from crackle. I have lots of MP3s which have been ripped from vinyl, and you can always tell because crackling (dust on the track) is very difficult to eliminate in a practical manner. I have a high quality audio system so I can hear the crackle very clearly. The first time I noticed it I thought my speakers had developed a severe fault before I realised it was a vinyl rip.

    High-end audio is not about the perfect source, but I'm afraid vinyl just falls too far short.

    1. Re:Vinyl is an awful medium by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pre-echo normally refers to a digital phenomenon of frequency domain transforms, not vinyl.

      Well, that and there's the old print-through on analog mag tape masters that could cause something similar, but that has nothing to do with vinyl and everything to do with bad mastering media.

      But yeah, vinyl has issues because of pops and crackles. Good reason to keep your area clean and never touch a record except on the edges. And try a heavier tonearm. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  13. The Wisdom of 15-Year-Olds by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    'Bad sound on an iPod has had an impact on a lot of people going back to vinyl,'

    That's crap. How about rewording it to be a bit more truthful (and accurate): 'Highly-compressed, far less than CD quality sound, on an iPod has had an impact on some people looking for alternatives, including vinyl,'

    This kid may have 1000 records, but that pales compared to 100,000,000 iPod sales and still growing.

    Besides, portable music is the Big Thing. How are you going to play that vinyl on your portable music player? In fact, it's hard to even find a great turntable at an affordable price any longer. It's not like the old days when a couple hundred bucks could buy a great Dual 1237. Mine still sits next to my computer -- and isn't for sale!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  14. No, it's not by cstec · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Vinyl has a warmer, more nuanced sound than CDs or MP3s
    Yeah, as long as you're calling reproduction error "warmer" and noise and other junk not in the recording "nuances."

    MP3 is a lossy format so between those two, who knows, but the 'audiophiles' that claim vinyl is superior make me wretch. And yes, I still have plenty of vinyl because there was a time that was all we had.

  15. Pro Audio Kettle^WPower Cords by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hmm, I have some $5000 power cords I can sell him, guaranteed to improve the sound of his records. It will provide a distinct improvement in the warmth of deep bass, combined with a crisp treble. Our phone lines are open right now for orders. Just call 911-5324 and get an instant discount...

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  16. Man, you did that scarily well. by jcr · · Score: 2, Funny

    There are probably some people out there who would buy $100,000 Hollerith keypunches.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  17. Not this crap again by L4m3rthanyou · · Score: 2, Informative

    That "warm" sound is distortion. Some listeners may like it, but from a quality/reproduction standpoint it is most definitely a bad thing. If record companies really are selling vinyl again, they're probably just trying to make a quick buck on nostalgic idiots who are actually dumb enough to buy vinyl records in 2008. Even the record companies realize that online distribution is the next big thing.

    Most of the problems with CDs and digital audio can be blamed on poor compression and the loudness war. I'm really sick of hearing the same old rants from vinyl fanboys... why is this even worthy of Slashdot's front page?

    Oh, and technically speaking, vinyl has a finite bitrate. Once you get down to the molecular level, that is... so I'll have no more of this "vinyl has infinite quality" nonsense.

    --
    One of these days, I'm going to cut you into little pieces.
  18. The Vinyl 'user Interface' Is What's Special by szyzyg · · Score: 4, Informative

    For me vinyl was always cool, but regardless of the arguments abount sound quality there's one feature that vinyl posesses for DJ's that's frequently overlooked - the user interface - the way you can control the music by dragging the record on the turntable, the way you can seek to the right point in the record just by dropping the needle in the right place - the way you can see the beats, the builds and the breakdowns on the media just by looking at the way the light reflects from the surface. That's why I still buy it, for performance purposes.

    Now, there are many attempts to replicate the interface, either with the giant jog wheels on the CDJ's or vinyl control discs sending control signals to computers (Serato/MsPinky/Final Scratch) but while these bring advantages to the equation - mnamely being able to carry a larger selection in your record bag or laptop's disc - they still fall short of the pure vinyl experience in subtle ways.

    Now I can listen to practically any track ever recorded, on demand and for free at sites like imeem.com when I love music I want the physical artifact and a vinyl version always gets more love from me.

    Oh and vinyl is robust, I have 10 year old CD's that are turning brown and won't play, but I have 50 year old vinyl that still works just fine.

    1. Re:The Vinyl 'user Interface' Is What's Special by RogueSeven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, not only all those things, but also don't forget that listening to vinyl also makes you part of the experience. You can't just put on a vinyl record and forget about it if your aim is to hear it through. Halfway through (or 1/3, 1/4, what have you), you need to actually get up and flip the record over. It may not sound like much (or it may even sound like a detraction for those unfortunately spoiled lazy by the digital age), but it's that type of interaction that can, to me, help make an album special and immersive. BTW, I'm twenty-two, in case I sounded like a bitter ancient fossil with my laziness comment just now. I have a large collection of digital music, which I love. I just know that when I want something physical to display in my home, when I want to go above and beyond double clicking a file, vinyl it is!

  19. There is a zero-wear player by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 5, Informative

    Vinyl degrades with each use; there is no getting around it.

    Actually, you CAN get around it if you're willing to shell out $10k+ :

    http://www.elpj.com/

    1. Re:There is a zero-wear player by RadioElectric · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's good providing your records are spotless and dust free. The laser can't push particles out of the way like a needle can.

    2. Re:There is a zero-wear player by thegnu · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, but if you're using a freaking LASER to read your vinyl, you'd damn well better have those $8000 speaker cables. I hear they make the music more "danceable."

      Ahem. This is my excuse from now on when people criticize my dancing.

      --
      Please stop stalking me, bro.
    3. Re:There is a zero-wear player by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Dust isn't your problem. It's your wife's job to make sure there's no dust in the house. If there is, she's not doing her job right.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  20. Re:Show me the science by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... it's known that humans can only hear up to 20MHz or so anyway.

    That's a popular misconception. The human ear doesn't just stop hearing at any particular frequency, per se. It tapers off above a certain point. Beyond 15-20 kHz (I assume that's what you meant), depending on the individual, it starts falling off. By 22 or 23 kHz, you need a pretty massive volume to hear it, but most people who haven't blown their ears can still hear it.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  21. Accuracy and Vinyl by a+whoabot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I own a few vinyls. There were a few that I can think of that sounded better to me on vinyl then in the cd form. I don't know why they sounded better, I just thought they did. My turntable doesn't keep pitch anymore, and I generally listen to mp3s now.

    I'll say one last thing. People put down vinyl because it's not as accurate as digital. But accuracy is impossible to achieve in the sense you're going for. When artists record and master music, they listen back to it in a variety of different ways, certain speakers and settings which you have no idea of. And even if you knew, that still doesn't mean you can accurately reproduce what the artist/producer/engineer intended because they are frequently working in "translation" where they are listening back with a certain sound system, but they are actually keeping in mind what it will sound like on other sound systems, with no one way being defined as the exact way it should sound; they weren't intending anyone actually to listen to the music with a pair of studio monitors, even though that's how they were listening to it. So what then could possibly be the "accurate" sound? It's best not to get bent all out of shape over these things I think. The nice thing about vinyl is that you can buy some good albums for cheap at used record stores, but I suppose it depends on what you like, but anyone with a general appreciation for music who isn't too particular can find some good music on vinyl for real cheap.

  22. The "warmer, more nuanced sound" can be reproduced by rve · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "warmer, more nuanced sound" can be reproduced with your own CD player. Just use an equalizer and turn the top- and bottom frequencies way down, as the LP never managed to reproduce those properly. You can also slowly crumple up some paper for that added soft cracking sound in the background.

    The LP was just never a very good reproduction of the sound in the studio.

    But ok, some people prefer the sound the way it is distorted by reproduction via LP/record player, a matter of taste.

  23. Lets see... where to start... by Helldesk+Hound · · Score: 2, Informative

    Lets see... where to start.

    1/ 16bit digital audio has about twice the dynamic range (numerically) of vinyl records. In fact 16bit digital audio has more dynamic range than the best professional analogue tape recorders - even when those tape recorders use good noise reduction techniques.

    2/ 16bit digital audio has more than twice the channel separation (numerically) of vinyl records. In fact it has complete channel separation.

    3/ 16bit digital audio does not require dynamic compression in order to fully capture and playback the entire dynamic range of a large orchestra. Vinyl requires dynamic compression for almost everything that is to be reproduced with vinyl, including capturing all frequencies below 1kHz.

    4/ The simple process of tracking the "stylus" through the grove of the record damages the vinyl, deforms the grove and introduces distortion. It is simply not possible for a stylus to faithfully capture from the vinyl what was pressed onto the vinyl - even with the most expensive equipment. Most styli are not even capable of not jumping out of the grove in louder parts of the music.

    5/ ALL music recorded in professional studios today is recorded digitally using either 16bit or 24bit recorders. The bit-rate is what determines the depth of the sound and the total dynamic range available. All vinyl does is introduce limitations and distortions.

    AND they still say that vinyl has a superior sound. Well yes - it does - when you compare it with MP3s! But that really is not saying much.

  24. IAAAP (I am an audiophile) by dokebi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am an audiophile, but not a crazy one. I have a simple test for anyone's sound system. Try this out sometime.

    Put one some music, preferably recorded live. Something with a single instrument--like guitar, violin, or sax. Make sure its something without amplification. Play it at a volume that gives you the illusion that the instrument is in the room. On a decent system and a good recording this shouldn't be too hard.

    Now here is the test. Step into the adjacent room. Ask yourself if the illusion still exists. Does it sound like there is someone playing the guitar in the next room? Or does it sound like it's coming from a box?

    Most setups fail this test. They will sound "boxy" somehow. My setup passes this test with flying colors. It wasn't that expensive put together. I don't have tube amps (distortion), turntable (more distortion), nor $5000 cables (useless). What I do have is a faithful reproduction of sound that was recorded. When listening to CD's, most distortions I notice these days are poor mixing, poor miking, poor eq, dynamic compression, and other terrible things done during production. And my speakers faithfully reproduces these without "warming" them or "soothing" them or something.

    Oh, and vinyls sound like crap on my system.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, articles before post read *you*!
  25. Vinyl Shminyl. most people just have cloth ears! by Helldesk+Hound · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > Vinyl does sound better than a 16-bit CD in quiet
    > passages... MUCH better, actually.

    Firstly, as I posted elsewhere, all music recorded today is recorded digitally using either 16bit or 24bit recorders. It is simply not possible for vinyl to improve on the sound of the original digital recording. Perhaps you are referring to the absolute necessity for recordings when being transferred onto vinyl needing to have most of the dynamic range compressed out of it in order to fit within the dynamic range of a vinyl record. 16bit digital audio has approx 100dB of dynamic range available. The only problem with digital audio that I have come across is having too wide a dynamic range for listening comfort and I'm needing to turn the volume DOWN for when the orchestra gets into the seriously loud parts.

    > It has to do with bit depth which decreases as the audio level goes
    > down. CDs are mastered with between 12db and 20db of headroom before
    > absolute clipping, so you're only using about 14 of your 16 bits
    > right there.

    Actually, when I was *mastering* CDs I was wanting to have the peak volume no less than 3db from 0dBfs.

    Also, the bit depth does not alter at all. It remains that the signal is still captured as a 16bit sample. The fact that the audio level may be capable of being STORED in fewer than 16bits does not change the fact that the voltage difference represented by, say, 65535 and 65534 up near the top end of the 16bit dynamic range is the same voltage difference that is represented between 127 and 126 down near the bottom end of the 16bit dynamic range.

    If you take the same, 50dB accoustic signal and record it both digitally and using a good professional analogue recorder, (both set to be capable of capturing an accoustic peek of 96dB without distortion) and then digitally normalise the former to have a peek of, say, 1dBfs, and you playback the output of the former into the input of another likewise good professional analogue recorder, but this time amplifying the output so that it has a peek of 96dB, you will find that both will introduce their own types of distortion into the signal.

    The trick really is to record it once, to set the recording levels correctly the first time, and to process the captured signal as little as possible between original recording and final mastering.

    The fact that some CD players were so poorly manufactured that they could not cope with the fully dynamic range of 16bit digital audio without the analogue part of the digital/analogue converter itself starting to distort is not in any way a fault of digital audio. People experiencing that should go out and buy a CD player that can do what it claims it can do.

  26. Electronic reproduction is nothing like reality by blitz487 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I once, on successive nights, heard a violin solo at the opera house, with no electronic assistance. The next night, I went to a Yanni concert which had a violin solo that had a mike attached to the violin, and was blasted over the speakers. There was a world of difference in the sound. Yanni had the best equipment, but speakers simply cannot duplicate the sound of a real instrument. It's a far larger gulf than 16 to 24 bits, or vinyl to CD. Try listening to a piano live sometime, or harp, or violin, or trumpet, or guitar, etc. It's not even close to the best stereo equipment.

  27. Reasonable, but not well informed by poptones · · Score: 5, Informative

    Because low frequency sounds have much more "energy" than high frequency sounds, the sound on an LP is equalized before encoding onto the record. This equalization is done according to a standard curve so all playback equipment handles it roughly the same, and the equalization boosts the high frequency sounds by 20db while REDUCING low frequency sounds by 20db, with a crossover point at roughly 1khz. The exact constants are 314uS and 3140uS, or about 100hz and 10khz, above and below which the equalization is "shelved," or flat.

    If this equalization were not present, it would be almost impossible for the LP record to exist, as the grooves on a record would have to be so far apart. It would also be very, very hard to get playback equipment to reliably track such a record.

    Now, records are not just "cut" in a dumb fashion. Since the 70s at least, mastering equipment has been smart enough to move the cutter head across the record at variable pitch. In this way, passages that had a lot of bass content (and thus produced wide excursion of the stylus) could be recorded at a wider pitch than "average" tracks. In fact, it is this equipment which allowed those "extra long play" records of the late 70s to come into existence. Radio Shack sold a few of these featuring such artists as Arthur Feidler and the Boston Pops, and Earth, Wind and Fire, and these albums could play a half hour or more on each side. This was done by careful equalization and record level settings combined with variable pitch cutting of the master disk.

    So far as excursion goes, no, it aint limited at all to anything like 2 mils. If you can find an old copy of Telarc's recording of Stravinsky's Firebird Suite and look closely at the record, you will see places where the groove pitch is about fifty times that! This was considered one of the benchmark tests of the day as many cartridges and tonearms could not play it without skipping. In fact, if you simply read some old equipment reviews of the 70s and 80s you will often find this recording to be one of the standard reviewers tests.

    But what you completely missed is electrical noise. See, a standard phono cartridge has an impedance of 600 ohms. A 600 Ohm source impedance, at room temperature, has a fairly well defined noise floor. That is, barring any other source of noise, the simple thermal noise of the transducer itself can never go below a certain level. Given a "0db" standard for most phono cartridges of roughly 4.5mV, the noise floor can never me more than 76db below zero. This was, in fact, the source of some amount of fraudulent advertising during the "numbers race" of the 70s and 80s, when many manufacturers would claim phono s/n rations of upward of 100db. While one can most certainly make a preamp that can prodice this low noise output with a SHORTED input, connecting an actual transducer to the input throws that right to the wind. As a result the FTC mandated phono S/N be specified with a standard input impedance of 600 Ohms.

    None of which _really_ means anything. Zero db on a phonograph is not a hard limit (as shown by the Telarc recording) and that noise floor does not mean no information can exist below -76db. But likewise, Digital recordings are not so "hard limited" either. Noise shaping allows much greater than 96db s/n floor across the midrange where it is most needed at the expense of higher frequency noise floor where it is less likely to be audible.

    Basically, the difference between these two - outside the distortions implicitly mandated by the RIAA EQ curve and the electronics needed to accommodate it - comes down to mastering. Which adds new meaning to the phrase "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..." When, in a few years, these kids buying vinyl have grown into twenty somethings with plenty of disposable income and are once again lured into replacing their "old vinyl collection" with new digitally mastered SACD recordings that are cut from the _analog_ masters (that sound good) rather than the CD masters where the signal was digitally comp

    1. Re:Reasonable, but not well informed by tom's+a-cold · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because low frequency sounds have much more "energy" than high frequency sounds, the sound on an LP is equalized before encoding onto the record.
      That would be interesting if it were true. But the opposite is true: a low frequency wave of a given amplitude delivers less energy than a high frequency wave of the same amplitude. In fact, energy flux is directly proportional to frequency. In the electromagnetic world, that's why an x-ray or gamma-ray will cause more mayhem in your body than a radio wave of the same amplitude. They deliver more energy because they are higher frequency.

      This only makes sense because if you double the frequency, the particles will have to move back and forth twice as often in a given time interval.

      The reason audio engineers do equalizing is driven primarily by psychoacoustics and by expectations of the frequency response and quality of the playback apparatus. Suffice to say that a listener's perception of the relative volumes of different frequencies is non-linear, and the typical playback device is not some massively over-engineered stack of audiophile equipment that cost more than my car. It's a common practice for engineers to check out the results of the mastering process by listening to the mix on a shitty car stereo or a $49 boom box since that more closely replicates a typical listener's experience than a studio full of reference monitors. Some engineers will also rip a mix to 128-bit mp3 just to be sure that it's still listenable in that format. But don't tell the RIAA about that...

      I am guessing, reading your post again, that what you were trying to say is that a low-frequency wave of a given energy will be of higher amplitude than a high-frequency wave of the same energy. So, for an analog recording medium using a linear encoding scheme, the required excursions for a low-frequency wave of a given energy will also have to be greater. Same would go for a linearly-encoded digital representation. And, as you mention, other schemes make better use of the available number of bits. If that's what you were trying to say, it makes sense.

      And let me try summing up your S/N discussion by saying a couple things. First, signal-to-noise ratio is a ratio. That is, by definition, it's a relative measure. That allows "relative to what?" manipulation by self-interested parties. Second, there's an irreducible noise floor for any audio signal, imposed by the laws of physics. Where I'd add to your argument is that that noise floor in real life is present at every step of the signal chain, from the initial recording through the persistence mechanism used (including any encoding that happens) and subsequent reproduction. Clearly, the noise floor that matters the most is the one that comes along with the signal that is amplified most. And the air in a room at room temperature has a noise floor too, as does any electronic circuit, and as do people's ears. You can do clever things to improve headroom when designing an encoding process, whether it's analog or digital, but ultimataly you can't beat Mother Nature. Many of the claims made by audiophiles and by the hucksters who make livings extracting cash from their pockets are simply not consistent with the laws of physics.

      --
      Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
  28. Delta-sigma by mangu · · Score: 5, Informative

    As music passages get quieter, you're using fewer of the available bits until the really quiet stuff is 4-bit bit audio which sounds like shit no matter what the sample rate. It's very gritty sounding.

    That's what the "audiophiles" claim, but that's not the way CDs are recorded. That mythical "number of bits" figure is mostly a marketing argument, digital recordings today are done in a way that eliminates quantization noise in the audible band


    Digital recording technology isn't just a fad, if it were a new one would have replaced it by now. Digital is actually better than analog in *all* aspects, if done right. If done wrong, well, does a bad analog recording sound good to you?


    The weakest link in sound recording and reproduction is almost always the conversion between electrical signals to sound and vice-versa. When people "compare" digital sound to analog they are often comparing listening to an ipod with earbuds with listening to a $100k analog system. Well, try to listen to the ipod in a pair of these $5350.00 speakers and tell me again again about those "warmer, more nuanced" sounds.

    1. Re:Delta-sigma by commodoresloat · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, try to listen to the ipod in a pair of these $5350.00 speakers and tell me again again about those "warmer, more nuanced" sounds.
      Umm, I'll listen to it that way, and tell you whatever the hell you want to hear, if you hook me up with a set of those speakers!
  29. Ah, the things "audiophiles" claim... by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That's what the "audiophiles" claim, but that's not the way CDs are recorded.


    Ah, the kinds of things that "audiophiles" claim...

    Probably the funniest was one on the HardwareCentral forum, which insisted that MP3's sound differently off different hard drives, and of course his superior ear can easily tell the difference between a Maxtor and a Seagate. He actually went into a funny (in a village idiot kind of way) theory about how it's recorded magnetically like on cassettes, and we all know how different magnetic coatings (e.g., iron oxide vs chromium oxide) in cassettes behaved differently in different frequency ranges. So it stood to (his warped lack of) reason that the same would happen to hard drives. Some would have better bass, some would have a greater dynamic range, etc.

    Sad to say, no amount of explaining that a 1 is a 1 is a 1 on a hard drive and the MP3 read will be identical on any brand, made any difference. He was sure that that's nonsense, the magnetic coating of a HDD platter has no reason to behave differently than that of a cassette, and most importantly he had convinced himself that he can hear the differences. (Without a double-blind test, though. Funny how many "audiophiles" resent those three words.)

    Also in the funny stupidity category, I submit to you such gems as:

    - $1000+ power cables, and people swearing that their music sounds better with one,

    - specially-tuned wooden volume knobs (no, seriously), and people swearing that their music sounds better with one,

    - audiophile motherboards with one vacuum tube at the end of an otherwise 100% digital chain, and again people swearing that their MP3's sound closer to the original with that (never mind that it's really just adding the tube's own soft-clipping kind and harmonics, to those that the digital chain already introduced),

    Etc, etc, etc.

    It's just the emperor's new clothes story. Except the original story got it wrong. If you tell someone that only some kind of superior beings can see those clothes, or hear the subtle sound differences, they'll actually convince themselves that they really see or hear that. They won't fake it, they'll actually be convinced that if they squint just right, they kinda see the fabulous clothes on the emperor.

    And a kid shouting "the emperor is naked", actually won't make any difference. That's actually what they want to hear. Being better is relative. You have to be better than _someone_. For you to be better, someone else has to be worse. So once they got it into their head that they must be one of the geniuses that see the clothes, other people shouting "The emperor is naked!" just provides ample "proof" that yup, others aren't that good.

    In fact, here's an even more depressing parting thought: the more blatantly absurd and provably wrong something is, the more vehemently its advocates will defend it.
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Ah, the things "audiophiles" claim... by jwlidtnet · · Score: 2, Informative

      My favorite thing is what tends to happen on certain audiophile boards. Some new, audiophile LP pressing of some overly venerated classic rock title is announced. MSRP: something like $30. Cue spooage, despite the fact that old copies of said release can be found for $.50 everywhere. Anyway, so the date approaches. The first person gets his record. Posts an almost glowing review, replete with WARMTH and TUBEY GOOSH and whatnot.

      What's the almost?

      There's always a caveat. "Pressing was a little warped; going to ask Classic to replace it." "There're a few nasty ticks on side 2." "There was, believe it or not, a skip in the third song."

      And it just makes me laugh and laugh. Dude, you know what the problem is? You just bought...new vinyl! You're going to return it because it exhibits a lower grade of the problems inherent to the medium? Your search for perfection is going to yield anything but.

      Bah. What's terrible is that it's apparently far easier to reissue things on vinyl than it is on CD (for independent labels, at least), so a lot of titles that haven't made it to CD get reissued on "audiophile vinyl" for $30, and then everyone acts as if that's solved the iniquity of its otherwise-unavailability.

    2. Re:Ah, the things "audiophiles" claim... by technothrasher · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sad to say, no amount of explaining that a 1 is a 1 is a 1 on a hard drive and the MP3 read will be identical on any brand

      Hmm, I think I'm with the audiophile with this one. On a Western Digital hard drive all my MP3s sound different. They all sound like "click, click, click".

  30. Yeah, once by nagora · · Score: 3, Interesting
    It's surprising how quickly the quality of a piece of plastic degrades when you drag a sharp diamond over it. Or perhaps it isn't, in hindsight.

    The only thing that's making vinyl sound good to 15-year-old kids is that modern producers are by and large shite button-monkeys who compress the fuck out of everything so it'll sound good when ripped to mp3 and/or played through tiny earphones or club sound systems.

    The sort of engineers and producers who would care enought to produce a vinyl LP these days would probably also make damn good CDs.

    TWW

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  31. By the time you're 20! by swb · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One day 20 years ago in a college physics test, the teacher (who was a bit of a showman, as I think all college physics teachers are) had a massive looking amp and speaker setup at the front of the lecture hall (a '20s era building with the large lab bench up front). After a few minutes, he looked at us and said "What is the matter with you kids? Don't you know loud music is bad for you!" and went on to explain that he was pumping out about 120 db spl worth of noise at 23Khz and that he was going to demonstrate why we ought not waste money on speakers that claimed 20+ Khz response.

    He turned down the frequency generator to about 10Khz (when we realized it was super loud) and then the volume and told everyone to raise their hand and then lower it when they could no longer hear anything. 90% of the class had their hand down when the frequency generator hit about 19Khz, and the ones left were all girls and nobody lasted to 22Khz.

    The other one is high fidelity in cars -- even the nicest "riding" car I've ever been in (Jaguar) still has an audible road noise floor which makes fidelity in the car pointless, especially if you're a wanker in a Honda like me.

  32. Audiophile nonsense by mlwmohawk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Warmer" an "Nuanced" and other such words that have absolutely NO quantitative value re used regularly by the snakeoil salesmen called Audiophiles.

    There is absolutely NO way that vinyl sounds "better" than CDs. What ever argument you want to put forward, to human beings with our method of processing sounds, A CD with the same source of audio data will reproduce that audio data more faithfully than vinyl. Period, end of discussion. It is up to the audiophiles to disprove this statement.

    The nonsense words like "nuanced" and "warmer" and so on are merely way audiophiles with seemingly no real background in engineering, or like fundamentalist christians, somehow fail to shine the lite of reason on their beliefs, are merely ways of describing the distortion that vinyl mechanics adds into the audio.

    Now, "sound" and "music" are different and I will grant that there are a lot of things that make recordings sound "pleasing" that are not the quantifiable, but somehow I don't think it is the job of the audio delivery system to inject its own crap into the system.

    Also, Audiophiles have an impossible and contradictory view on audio. They'll argue that $7000 speaker cables are worth the money (http://www.pearcable.com/) while also arguing that vinyl is better because it is "warmer" i.e. distorted.

    Audiophiles are idiots and they are nothing more stupid people with too much money to spend on stuff that is he electrical/audio equivalent of placebos. In psycho-acoustic terms, if you think it sounds better, then it sounds better. If you are gonna pay $7000 for a cable set and $1000 on your turntable, you have a vested interest in the sound of your system sounding better, so it will. (to you)

    Maybe I shouldn't argue with Audiophiles, maybe I should sell them "oxygen free" copper cables at $250 a foot.

    1. Re:Audiophile nonsense by mlwmohawk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You don't even LIKE music do you?

      No I don't "LIKE" music, I LOVE music. Blues, classical, pop, yes even country, jazz, swing, all of it. Etta James, Erikah Badu, James Brown, Sam & Dave, the Bangles, Beatles, Mozart, Strauss, Zappa, damn!!! all of it.

      What I don't like is LPs. I'm in my 40s now, and I remember LPs in their prime. I had LOTS of LPs. They sound distorted, with hiss and pop, yuck. I bought a CD player when my friend played Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon on it. Pure music, I was floored. It was as best as can be reproduced in my room with my speakers and amp, while considerable at the time, not a sound studio.

      No, sorry, CDs were a restoration of music, they we better than LPs. Much like the restoration of the Sistine Chapel, it opened up a lot more color, and a lot of people didn't like it, but that didn't mean the pre-restoration was better.

    2. Re:Audiophile nonsense by bobschneider8 · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is absolutely NO way that vinyl sounds "better" than CDs. What ever argument you want to put forward, to human beings with our method of processing sounds, A CD with the same source of audio data will reproduce that audio data more faithfully than vinyl. Period, end of discussion. It is up to the audiophiles to disprove this statement.

      Of course vinyl can sound better than CDs. "Sounds better" merely means I prefer it. Saying that there's no way vinyl sounds better than CDs is like saying that there's no way strawberry ice cream tastes better than chocolate.

      What you can say is that there's no way vinyl sounds more accurate than CDs. While you could make a contrary argument (say, that the distortions in LP playback cancel out distortions in the recording process), this is a defensible statement.

      But the LP vs CD argument is different than other audiophile foolishness, like $7000 cables. People who sell expensive cables claim audible differences where no one has ever proven that there is any difference, so it's not reasonable to claim a preference. No one claims that there's no audible difference between LPs and CDs, so people should be expected to prefer one over the other. And it's not reasonable to claim that everyone else should share your preference. Some folks prefer "pretty" to "realistic".

  33. The real test is recent vinyl by gilesjuk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You need to listen to recent music pressed on vinyl vs old vinyl. Then also compare old vinyl albums with the version on CD.

    Why? an old album will have been recorded on tape and used classic analog amplifiers, maybe even some valve kit here and there. The modern album is very likely to have been mostly digitally processed.

    Simply listening to a modern album and then going back to something recorded in the 70s does not prove that CD or MP3 is less vibrant, it just proves the difference in recording technology. Listening to the same classic album on CD will determine if the format is colouring the sound.

  34. True in a way by _merlin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know it's a joke, but you really are onto something. Back in the day, you would punch out your program on cards and send it off to the computing facility to run in the overnight batch. You'd think a lot more about getting the program right first time. If there was a bug, the best possible result was that you would submit the corrected program for the next overnight batch, and you would lose a day; but since computer time was severely limited, you might not be allowed a slot in the next batch, and you'd lose even more days waiting until you were allowed another slot.

    These days, people are far too eager to jump into the debugger, or to just try running something to see if it works. This culture leads to a lot of obscure, since the program isn't designed to be correct, and examined critically in an attempt to say with reasonable confidence that it really is correct but is simply run by the developer. The whole "works for me" syndrome.

  35. Re: "Digitally normalise" in Audio by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think Wikipedia can explain this one for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_normalization

    Its purpose is to make the best use of the available dynamic range. By adjusting the highest peaks to "just below clipping" you avoid using up dynamic range for headroom. Of course this only makes sense if the original recording has a greater dynamic range than the target, otherwise you would just increase the quantization noise along with the audio signal. That is why studios like to use 20 or 24 bit digital equipment.

    As an example, assume the sound engineer leaves 10 db of headroom during recording. Then
    1) On 16 bit equipment with 96 dB dynamic range, you get an actual S/N ratio of 86 dB. The 10 dB headroom are lost, normalization would be pointless.
    2) On 20 bit equipment with 120 dB dynamic range, you get an actual S/N ratio of 110 dB. In this case, you can convert the 20 bit recording to a normalized 16 bit recording that has a S/N ratio of 96 dB. This is how you make the best use of a digital format with limited dynamic range.

    On a more personal note, the way you ridicule GP over a few spelling errors deserves modding down as troll. Especially since you obviously don't understand all of the involved concepts yourself.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
  36. Re:My own experience. by philicorda · · Score: 2, Informative

    Unless you can be sure that the vinyl and CD masters were identical, your tests are invalid.
    Due to the limitations of vinyl, and the current trend in CD mastering, they are unlikely to be the same masters.

    A better comparison is to try comparing the direct output of the turntable to the same through 16bit 44.1KHz ad/da conversion.
    In double blind tests, no one has ever been able to reliably tell the difference.

  37. The trick to getting seriously good audio by Simonetta · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The trick to getting seriously good audio has nothing to do with audio reproduction equipment. All music is subjective; it's an emotional experience.

        Stop paying $10000 for a 'sound system' and wanking endlessly on Slashdot about specs and which recording sounds better. Get yourself a $100 electric guitar and a simple but good headphone amp. A $1 LM386 audio amp IC and a couple of resistors/capacitors from a trashed stereo works fine.

        Download some tab files of your favorite songs (the ones that you were going to use to judge the quality of your $10000 stereo system) and some MIDI files of the same songs (if you can find them still on the web).

        Learn to play them on your guitar.

        It takes a little time, sure. But the results are often feel better than endlessly listening to the same recording on a $10000 system (even with Monster cables).

        And I assure you that you will be hearing parts and intricacies of the music that you didn't notice before learning to play the songs yourself on your own instrument. Even if you're listening on a $5 garage sale cassette Walkman.

        Music is subjective. It is what you make it to be. 20-year-old Eddie Cochran, John Lennon, Eddie Van Halen, or Carlos Santana didn't need $10000 sound systems to make incredible music. Neither do you.

  38. Not this crap again. by DaveCBio · · Score: 2, Informative

    No, vinyl records are not better, they are just different. I grew up on the crux of the changeover from records to CDs. I've heard it all. I work in audio professionally. There is an entire spectrum of audio quality regardless of the format. If there is any issue at all it's that people are getting used to and are willing to forgive crappy compression on audio. Properly recorded digital still has warmth, depth, and has a far more "nuanced" sound because it isn't buried under a freaking mechanical noise floor. This resurgence is just another trend that will fade as quick as it started.

  39. analog lasers by davidwr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lasers don't have to be an off-or-on proposition. In principle, they can measure the changes in the reflectivity of the record's surface in an analog way, much like our eyes measure the changes in real-world lighting in analog.

    Now, if it were me doing a laser record player, I'd go the A-D route unless the cost of doing it "all analog" were made up by profits from suck^H^H^H^Hcustomers who pay extra for an "all analog" sticker on the box.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.