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US Policy Would Allow Government Access to Any Email

An anonymous reader writes "National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell is currently helping to draft a new Cyber-Security Policy that could make the debate over warrantless wiretaps seem like a petty squabble. The new policy would allow the government to access to the content of any email, file transfer, or web search."

48 of 516 comments (clear)

  1. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And what is it going to do about my encryption keys?

    Not that I support this, but I sure as hell don't intend to make it easy for people to invade my privacy when I'm not doing anything illegal.

    1. Re:Really? by ashridah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Taking your comment on face value, this only really works if you're communicating with a peer whom you already know, *and* whom you already have exchanged public keys with, in a trusted manner (no, a key on a public key chain isn't trusted, if you don't know why, then you fail at cryptography).

      This doesn't work for public discussion lists, or even private ones, unless they're very strictly controlled.
      It also doesn't help for p2p traffic, as those are between two essentially anonymous parties, and thus, have no way to prevent a man in the middle attack, even if they DO use encryption (unless the tracker mediates, which, for most implementations that I've seen, it doesn't, even if it's using SSL)

      The simple fact of the matter is that encryption is the wrong mechanism to solve this problem. Removing power from your government is the right mechanism, ideally.

    2. Re:Really? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd just go with the 5th ammendment defense - I don't have to tell you things that could incriminate me.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    3. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      > And what is it going to do about my encryption keys?

      Same thing they did in the UK: Pass a law making it illegal not to divulge them, and pass another law that says if you forget or lose the keys, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you forgot or lost the keys.

      Or the same thing they tried to do under Clinton I in the US: Require key escrow.

      > Not that I support this, but I sure as hell don't intend to make it easy for people to invade my privacy when I'm not doing anything illegal.

      When those laws are passed, "using an encryption key without divulging it to the government" will be illegal.

    4. Re:Really? by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In contrast, I'm posting not as AC and taking the risk.

      That said, there are NO sources for this statement. The PDF link gives a 404 and they don't explain what they meant other than using broad terms. It sounds like a lot of FUD without a source to back it up. Does anybody have the PDF? If not then I'd like to see more sources than just an un-signed editorial on Raw Story.

    5. Re:Really? by turbidostato · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I'd just go with the 5th ammendment defense - I don't have to tell you things that could incriminate me."

      So, how exactly is revealing a password any more incriminating than say, allowing police into your home -which is "standard practice"?

      -Don't tell us that you killed her -which would be incriminating, just tell us your password -which is something absolutly neutral.

    6. Re:Really? by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You don't have to 'let' them into your home - they need a search warrant for that. Enough evidence and they can even drill the lock and such - you don't have to tell them where your key is.

      Still, as long as the constitution holds out, they can ask you your password and you can plead the fifth.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    7. Re:Really? by iminplaya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...as long as the constitution holds out...

      C'mon. You should know by now that the constitution went belly up back in 1798. Well, the bill of rights anyway. The parliamentary stuff in the main body is still holding up.

      --
      What?
    8. Re:Really? by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > And what is it going to do about my encryption keys?

      Same thing they did in the UK: Pass a law making it illegal not to divulge them, and pass another law that says if you forget or lose the keys, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you forgot or lost the keys.

      Except in the United States we have this thing called the 5th Amendment which says someone can't be forced to say or do something that will incriminate themselves. As someone up the thread pointed out a judge already ruled for a defendant, United States v. Boucher.

      Falcon
    9. Re:Really? by ecitizen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." In this case, the Supreme Court ruled years ago that privacy is a freedom. If you look at what the FBI did to Martin Luther King years ago in their attempts to discredit him, you'll see what happens when you lose your privacy. If you give government power, eventually, they will abuse it. --E-Citizen

    10. Re:Really? by berzerke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't feel comfortable taking such a narrow interpretation of the bill of rights that only things that are literally and directly incriminating are protected.

      Sadly, it doesn't matter what you feel comfortable with. It's what a judge feels comfortable with. And lately they seem to be quite comfortable with broad, in some cases overreaching IMHO, interpretations of the bill of rights.

    11. Re:Really? by LordEd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In contrast, I'm posting not as AC and taking the risk. Out of curiosity, what are the risks associated with posting a message at Slashdot (not including the generic 'being a geek' risks)
    12. Re:Really? by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      What is dangerous about this is, it is not about just email, it is about all you Internet communications. Searching, file download, web sites visited (you download html), so the can create a full, in their interpretation psychological profile of you ie. we think you are guilty hence you are. Want to be a free thinking democratic voter under a republican government, based upon failing a range of pre established filters and data relations, they can ensure you are excluded from society as much as possible, no access to any public transport, no access to any government employment, no access to any 'secure' contracted to government private employment, random destructive searches of your person and property as well as all the members of your family resident at that address.

      Want to try to deny you disagree against government policy, or that you wont vote to keep them in power, or that you don't 100% agree with a corporation that supports the current government and your life and the future of your family will be systemically targeted. Unless you publicly support them and their chosen evangelical religion of power and control, you will become the enemy, and will be accused and judged by the 21st century Internet inquisition and potentially targeted for harsh interogation techniques.

      Don't fit their current preferred 'mold' of what they define to be a good, white, evangelical, american and honestly how well will you and your family fare under the 21st century Internet inquisition. Conspire to be free and believe in democracy and justice and you will learn how easily conspiracy laws can be abused.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    13. Re:Really? by arminw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...Out of curiosity, what are the risks associated with posting a message at Slashdot......

      It depends on what you write in your posts. If the FBI, CIA NSA, KGB, Gestapo or anyone else wants to read your screed, they may, may they not? After all you're not posting bomb making instructions or other stuff these guys would care about are you?

      Forget about privacy in todays modern world. About the only things that may still be private, are the thoughts in your own head. So far only God and you know what those are. But who knows, maybe future technology could even take those inner thoughts and make them available to others.

      --
      All theory is gray
  2. The Constitution... by zulater · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is sadly dying. But it's ok because if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to hide right?

    1. Re:The Constitution... by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well except that there is no proof that this is true. That story is kinda short on any proof at all.
      email? Does anybody think that email is private? It is sent in clear text so I would say that it is as private as a postcard.
      There is an election coming soon. So for those that really fear this find out where the candidates stand on it.
      Then vote.
      BTW don't focus so much on the President BTW take a hard look at your congressional reps.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:The Constitution... by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      why must we have to justify privacy? it's obvious to anyone that if a letter isn't addressed to you then it's an invasion of privacy regardless of the measures we take to stop you.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    3. Re:The Constitution... by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      email? Does anybody think that email is private? It is sent in clear text so I would say that it is as private as a postcard.

      As I say in every discussion of this nature, "private" in the sense of "can a police officer legally look at this and use it as evidence?" is completely different than in the sense of "could a malicious person who wanted to snoop on what I was saying possibly look at this, the law be damned?"

      E-mail is about as physically private as a letter. They are fairly trivial to read but it does require you take take deliberate action to do so. As opposed to a post card which could literally fall out of the postman's hand text-up and be read by accident, other people's emails don't just randomly show up on your screen even if you are an email server sysadmin.

      And thanks to recent precedent email is becoming -legally- as private as a letter. Which to repeat, is a different standard, and regardless of the fact that letters are easy to read, they are still considered private. So while a malicious mail man could read your mail whenever they chose, a cop who wanted their evidence to stand up at trial could not without a warrant.

      We need to remember both of these. First if you want real privacy even from malicious people, you need to encrypt your email. Second, we still need to keep unencrypted email to be legally private, since otherwise the idea is that if the police -can- read your encrypted emails then they don't count as private and thus no warrant is needed.

      There is an election coming soon. So for those that really fear this find out where the candidates stand on it.
      Then vote.
      BTW don't focus so much on the President BTW take a hard look at your congressional reps.


      True that. Sadly enough it's hard enough to get specific answers on what the Presidential candidates' stances are on the subject, much less all the representatives.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:The Constitution... by pilgrim23 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A new product is all the rage in the District these days:
          Bill of Rights Toilet Paper (tm)
      It comes with all 10 printed on each sheet. Congress Critters find it to be heavy duty absorbent. Somehow though, that stuff you water the Tree of Liberty with seems to slip through anyway, just a little, but it slips through....

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    5. Re:The Constitution... by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You are confusing the issue of security with privacy.

      just because i don't send all my email with 128bit encryption, it doesn't give you or the government the right to read them.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  3. He's just stretching the constraints by blair1q · · Score: 4, Insightful

    so he can get through something we would consider "less onerous" but is still an affront to the Constitution.

  4. Diminishing returns by KublaiKhan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If they're really trying to tap all that nonsense, it'll end up being a bit of a pain trying to pull the noise out of the signal at that point. It'd be relatively trivial to generate vast quantities of legit-looking noise to hide a small covert signal--and while data analysis algorithms and computer speeds have been steadily increasing, it's a bit of an arms race to keep up with the regular legitimate traffic, much less any obfuscation attempts.

    In the end, it's probably a lot more trouble than it's worth to go about things this way, rather than doing the 'traditional' sort of real-life investigation leading to a warrant &c.

    --
    In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
    A stately pleasure dome decree
    1. Re:Diminishing returns by cptdondo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you miss the point. The data will be mined after the fact or to build a case against someone the gov't doesn't like.

      Let's say you do something to piss some mucky-muck off and you get on the monitor list. It's only a matter of time before you mention in passing that you copied a DVD or any other heinous crime and bingo! The FBI/Federal marshals/etc are at your door.

      Paranoid? I grew up in a communist state. I hate to think I've escaped to one, too....

    2. Re:Diminishing returns by KublaiKhan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is only a scratch on the surface of the amount of data that is generated and transmitted daily. Above and beyond the web pages searched and indexed, there's the vast morass of Usenet, Email, P2P and other media traffic, and the various and sundry other things that are on protocols other than http.

      Other respondents have pointed out the arms race between spam and spam filtering; I had that in mind when I made my response. In essence, as a detection tool, this is going to be more or less useless, outside of the occasional one in a million lucky strike; really, the only way to use it would be to go mining it once you've already detected something nefarious and you want a more solid case--something that could easily be handled by a warrant and seizure of the suspect's computing assets.

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
    3. Re:Diminishing returns by KublaiKhan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's really the only way it could be useful at all; as a method of detection, there's no real way that one could find anything useful with that sort of shotgun approach at all.

      But if the government really wants your hide, then they'll have it whether they have any real evidence or not--witness Cardinal Richelieu's words: "Give me four lines written by the most innocent of men, and in them I will find something to hang him." That was just as true then as now.

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
  5. They found a way to make encryption mainstream! by Drake42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because you can be damn sure that if they pass this law people will finally make sure to heavily encrypt what they say on the internet.

    Then again, it's almost certain that they're already reading all the e-mail. This law is probably just to prevent them from getting sued about it later. Ug

    1. Re:They found a way to make encryption mainstream! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please, most people don't have any knowledge of email encryption, and probably have no idea about proposals like these. Worse, even people who are aware of email encryption don't want to be hassled with it, because it involves typing in an extra password (and heaven forbid we should do anything like that). Sadly, privacy is at the bottom of most people's priority lists, just under "free speech" and "due process" (yes, most of the people I know think it is wrong for a lawyer to defend someone who is "obviously guilty"). This won't scare anyone to action. Encryption should have become popular after several policies were enacted, and it still hasn't. The problem is very simple: most people do not care enough to go to the trouble of encryption.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  6. I got an idea.... by bherman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When the White House produces their missing emails, we'll produce ours
    That should sufficiently prevent this from becoming law!

    --
    Error: Sig not found.
    1. Re:I got an idea.... by EriDay · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Ass Hats running our government have it backward. We're supposed to be able to read their communications, and they aren't supposed to be able to read ours.

  7. You can't let the terrorists win by MosesJones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You need to have this sort of thing because you can't let the terrorists win, so what if you have to give up basic fundamental rights like privacy at least the terrorists won't have won.....

    Oh hang on we were fighting for freedom and liberty weren't we? So you need to give up all your freedoms to protect your freedom? You'd almost thought that the government was a repressive regime that wanted to subjugate people.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
  8. Correct by goombah99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Google has records that could help in a cyber-investigation, he said," Wright adds. "Giorgio warned me, 'We have a saying in this business: 'Privacy and security are a zero-sum game.'"

    So, that would mean that the societies with the most surveillance were the most secure, right?
    As any one knows prisons and navy ships (i.e. the ultimate panopticon) have zero crime rates.
    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Correct by zulater · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mean NCIS isn't real?!!??

  9. Who cares? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Regardless of the laws, we've already seen that the telecoms will grant the government whatever access it wants. If they get busted, they'll go cry to Congress for retroactive protection. Same results with or without legal protection of your privacy.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  10. This is bullshit by Bob+Gelumph · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Tag: fuckyouiwontdowhatyoutellme

    --
    I'm gonna need a spec.
  11. Re:Amendment IV to the Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    While we're at it, let's stop calling this "big brother" (as if goverment loves you underneath all the abuse) and "erosion" of rights (as if it's a natural process we should adapt to), and start referring to these attacks on human rights for what they really are: oppression.

  12. PGP to the Rescue! by flajann · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My friends, it is high time we start encrypting everything. We'll just have to make PGP/GPG easier to use by the masses.

  13. Re:At least they won't be able to mass-scan... by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does GMail support encryption though it's web client? Does Yahoo?

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  14. No sources by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems the above comment focuses on "will probably" without sources, much like the Raw Story unsigned editorial.

    Has anybody actually SEEN the draft so that we can comment on it intelligently without relying on "I think the US government is bad, so I'm going to assume they're doing horrible things"? The PDF link in the Rawstory unsigned editorial doesn't work, so it's awfully hard to evaluate their claims. The homepage of Rawstory makes their bias pretty clear, so I'm inclined to not just take their word.

  15. 127 hours? by John3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More likely less than five minutes. Have you seen video of people being waterboarded?

    --
    "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
  16. Impeach Them Already by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    These people are completely insane. They follow up every single total catastrophe in which they made us more endangered while demanding to violate our rights ever more with yet another demand to screw us while just scaring us and endangering us.

    I mean, they're still spinning down how a Filipino Monkey almost gave Bush a pretext for armageddon with Iran last week, continuing to blame Iran.

    They still act like they don't even really know for sure who is "the enemy" in Iraq, or when the next Taliban attack will show how badly we're losing in Afghanistan to a bunch of medieval hicks hellbent on returning to the Stone Age.

    And yes, they're still spying on every email, Web hit and phonecall in the US (hi, Dick!), while hustling to hand telcos amnesty for breaking the law at their request, even though they can't even pay the phonebill so it gets shut down.

    These Keystone Konservatives would be hilarious if they weren't the most dangerous people ever in the world.

    We have to call our lazy, complacent congressmembers and insist they impeach these criminal retards, instead of just easily running against them this year and inheriting all their catastrophic tyrannical powers.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  17. Re:crypto by devilspgd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Presumption of guilt could be made automatic if the content of encrypted material is not made available.

    Not constitutional, but then, many things aren't.

    --
    Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to phish...
  18. Not A Chance by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My feeling on any legislation (which this ISN'T) of this sort is sort of how I feel about the draft - anybody would have to be absolutely mental to put it into law. No congressperson wants to have any of their private correspondences probed, not to mention the voting public. It'd be the end of their (political) career in an instant. It's the old analogy of the frog in water - slowly turn up the heat and it will stay, but if you put a frog in extremely hot water, it will jump out. If you're gonna take away freedoms like this, it can't be in one fell swoop. Or, if it is, it needs to be after some big event (e.g. Pearl Harbor, 9/11).

    There's no way this will ever even come near coming true.

    --
    I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
  19. Complete and utter bullshit by Duncan+Blackthorne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was born here in California and have lived here all my life. Never been out of the country even once, barely even been out of the state, either. Next month I'll be 43 years old. When I was a kid, sure, there were things going on that weren't too cool, but there were still things to be proud about the country I was born and raised in. I can't say that anymore. I love my country, still, especially living in California, but I'm ashamed of my government and the things it's doing and allowing to be done, and even the mere MENTION of things like this, true or not, make me feel weary down to my very bones. I don't care to see it all destroyed, but it needs to be FIXED, and it needs to be fixed NOW before these bastards make it all come crashing down around our ears.

  20. One Good Thing ... by constantnormal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    ... is that the high level of spam will make it difficult to distinguish a certain style of cipher from the noise words inserted into spam to sneak it past the spam filters.

    Somebody needs to get cracking to devise a cipher that looks just like these spam noise words... something along the lines of a one-time pad

  21. tyranny by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What ever happened to the founding father's view that tyrany was ever vigilant and the tyrant would use any means to strip liberty away from its citizens?

    Oh yeah, that isnt taught in schools :(

    It, freedom from tyranny, not being taught in school may be part of the problem but another part is that those alive now haven't had to fight to preserve it. I think Thomas Jefferson hit it on the head when he suggested there should be a revolution about every 20 years. If you're born and raised under it more than likely you're going to be complacent.

    Falcon
  22. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  23. Re:Amendment IV to the Constitution by Burz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You joke, But in reality that's probably why the RealID cards stop at people born before 1964. That's the baby-boomer cutoff year, representing a very large demographic who still remember what its like to organize against repression.

    They'd rather use GenXers as guinea pigs, a much smaller demographic that's not used to having governments and markets abide by their demands (or needs). They are also much more steeped in the individualist mindset such that they're capable of mass-organizing very little outside of the corporate environment.

    So yes, you could say the Bill Of Rights is only for old people...

  24. Time for the rest of the world to stop using GMail by PodBayDoor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I haven't yet seen the details of the policy, but if it allows the US government access to any message transferred or stored on a US-based computing device, I think it's time for the rest of the world to abandon GMail, Yahoo mail etc. in droves.

    Every US citizen needs to read Deterring Democracy (Noam Chomsky) or failing that, try The Shock Doctrine (Naomi Klein); your government is out of control.

    Once upon a time, some people imagined that the internet would be the ultimate platform for free speech. Terrorists will simply get more creative in their communication technology (e.g. steganography on Flickr or other image-sharing web-sites) - it's the regular folk who are losing privacy, not by inches but by miles.