Dinosaurs Grew Fast and Bred Young

Smivs writes "It is thought that dinosaurs were able to breed before they were fully grown, much like todays mammals. This ensured that they could breed before they were predated in the violent world of the Mesozoic era. Calcium-rich medullary bone, which, in birds, is used to produce egg shells, was found inside the fossilized shin-bones of two specimens: the meat-eating Allosaurus and the plant-eater Tenontosaurus.Sarah Werning and Andrew Lee of the University of California, Berkeley, deduced from growth rings inside the bone that the two females were aged eight and 10, very young for dinosaurs, which lived to about 30. 'This shows us beyond any doubt how fast dinosaurs grow,' said Kevin Padian, a professor at UC Berkeley's Museum of Palaeontology. 'They're growing as fast as big birds and big mammals.'"

Comments

Grow fast, breed young

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, step aside my friend
I've been doing it for years
I say, sit on down, open your eyes
And open up your ears

Say
Put a tree in your butt
Put a bumblebee in your butt
Put a clock in your butt
Put a big rock in your butt
Put some fleas in your butt
Start to sneeze in your butt
Put a tin can in your butt
Put a little tiny man in your butt
Put a light in your butt
Make it bright in your butt
Put a TV in your butt
Put me in your butt
Everybody say

I, hey, that's, man, I ain't putting no trees in nobody's butt,
no bees in nobody's butt, putting nothing--
You must be out your mind, man,
y'all get paid for doing this?
Cause y'all gotta get some kind of money
Cause this don't sound like the kind of--
I'd rather golf, to be perfectly honest,
than put somethin in somebody's butt
to be truthful

Well step aside my friend and let me
show you how you do it
When big bad E just rock rock to it

Put a metal case in your butt
Put her face in your butt
Put a frown in your butt
Put a clown in your butt
Sit on down in your butt
Put a boat in your butt
Put a moat in your butt
Put a mink coat in your butt
Put everything in your butt
Just start to sing about your butt
Feels real good

Humans too...

[psychicsword]

There are example of humans breeding commonly at young ages too.
In the middle ages it was common for children to get married and although they tended to have kids when they where older, this wasn't always the case.
A quick google search turned this up:

It is more common for a young woman to have been married early, though not to have had her first child until she was much older. It is agreed that the most common age for a young woman to have given birth to her first child is from 16yo. In the middle ages with death all around from acts of god(viruses) and where large and very long wars were common it seems that humans did a similar thing.
Also from what I remember from studying the Middle Ages in school they had around a 40 year life expectancy which is very similar to the Dinos' life expectancy "two females were aged eight and 10, very young for dinosaurs, which lived to about 30." I understand it isn't the best source but like I said it was a quick search you may find another one if you wish.

If you want an example from more recently here is one.

According to their own estimate of total population (which is another contentious issue), this implies that around 5.5 million South Africans were living with HIV at the end of 2005, including 240,000 children under 15 years old. Now this doesn't mean they are giving birth to kids but they are sexually active and those are just the ones with HIV.
Now I know this isn't evidence but it is a possibility and I wouldn't be surprised if the dinosaurs did it.
PS I am just throwing this out I have no experience in the area and it is just a thought. So please nicely correct me if I am wrong.

Re:Humans too...

[ivan256]

Now this doesn't mean they are giving birth to kids but they are sexually active and those are just the ones with HIV.

Or that they were born to parents that were HIV positive and contracted it at or before childbirth...

Re:Humans too...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, some of the folk in Africa believe that AIDS can be cured by having sex with a virgin.

Also, think of the children that got AIDS from their mothers.

A very sad story.

Re:Humans too...

[sowth]

Or they had a blood transfusion...

I don't understand why that poster assumed they all got HIV from sex. Yes, that is one possible way to contract it, but not the only way.

Re:Humans too...

[Chris Burke]

Also from what I remember from studying the Middle Ages in school they had around a 40 year life expectancy which is very similar to the Dinos' life expectancy "two females were aged eight and 10, very young for dinosaurs, which lived to about 30."

Just a note about these two numbers. "Life expectancy" is an average value that takes into account the length of time that everyone lives, regardless of cause of death, and like all averages without any other context this can skew your perception. It's not that people died of "old age" at around 40 (presumably due to the harsh life they lived), they could easily live to be 60, 70, or even older. It's that a huge number of people died when they were very young, dragging down the average. What that 40 year life expectancy is really showing you is the effect of the extremely high infant mortality rate in that period.

Whereas the number for dinosaurs is intended to be more of an "upper bound". I don't know how they figure it, but it isn't meant to be the average lifespan of all members of the species, even those killed young. It's more like, that's about the age of the oldest specimens they've found.

Re:Humans too...

[psychicsword]

I didn't mean to say that the whole group was sexually active I was trying to say that at least some of them would have been sexually active and instead of just saying that there could be people under 15 having sex and kids with no evidence is a little bit weaker than having a number that has strong links to unprotected sex which can lead to giving birth to children. And yes I know that HIV can be transmitted in other ways, such as tainted needles, bad transfusions, and parents who were infected, and any other form of bodily fluid contact between two people.

Re:Humans too...

[BeanThere]

The odds of getting HIV from a blood transfusion in South Africa is incredibly miniscule, all our blood is tested. The vast, vast majority of infections is via sexual activity. It's definitely safe to say that the majority of that 240,000 got HIV from some form of sexual activity, so I think the point stands.

Re:Humans too...

[cnettel]

Do you include birth in that number, because if not, I think you need to back it up further.

Re:Humans too...

[Anonymous Coward]

PS I am just throwing this out I have no experience in the area and it is just a thought. So please nicely correct me if I am wrong.

Funny to see that stated out loud... That pretty much describes most every post on slashdot that's not a troll or some sort of spam or meaningless gibberish.

To get on subject, are you sure that those HIV infected persons under 15 haven't in large part been born with the virus? After a cursory glance at the page I couldn't find any description of methodology in that regard.

Re:Humans too...

[damn_registrars]

including 240,000 children under 15 years old.
HIV can also spread from the mother to the fetus. Those children under 15 could be a population of children who received the virus from their mother, but have not yet died of the virus.

Although it is possible that some portion of those under-15 children could be sexually active, as well. However, if you scroll further down the same page, you'll see that of the three age groups under 15 (2-4, 5-9, and 10-14), the youngest of the three actually has the highest percent prevalence. This could be indicative of a high rate of transfer of the virus from mother to fetus, with the infected newborn generally living to be around 4 years old.

Re:Humans too...

[BeanThere]

Just to be clear, that wasn't my number. Like I said though, transmission by sexual activity vastly outshadows all other transmission mechanisms, including by birth (odds of a HIV positive mom passing it onto unborn child are not that great, IIRC about 50%).

The teen pregnancy and abortion statistics in South Africa are off the friggin charts, this is not some secret or unknown or debatable question we're dealing with here, we're talking about pretty well-known facts via other stats. And that's just pregnancies and abortions, which represent only a very small fraction of overall risky sexual activity amongst children. (Then there's the rape / child rape / child abuse etc.)

Re:Humans too...

[psychicsword]

It's that a huge number of people died when they were very young, dragging down the average. Is that not what I am saying they had many who died very very young and made the rest reproduce like rabbits to compensate for the death. It could have been similar for the Dinos but instead of miscarriages they kids were eaten.

Re:Humans too...

[Chris Burke]

I'm just pointing out that the 40 year life expectancy in the Middle Ages is not a number comparable to the 30 year age of these dinos. That's how long one -could- live, while 40 years was a statistical average across the population.

The point you were making that they may have had children earlier in the Middle Ages as a consequence of the death rate is valid. Just the point of comparison between the ages of the dinos and humans isn't as evident.

Re:Humans too...

[Amouth]

all i can say is that whom ever started that hummor over there died or dies of AIDS - very slow very painfuly

Re:Humans too...

[Gabrill]

I think you abused the word, "common". Your own blog link not only quotes exceptions as the young royal age of marriage, it further states that non-royalty, or "commoners" typically married around the age of 22, due to family income and responsibilities. Add to that the fact that your comparing reptiles to humans, and we might as well throw in stats for worms, insects, birds, and why not bacteria? Not everything relates to humans, and you shouldn't try to grasp everything as a relation to yourself.

Re:Humans too...

[Anonymous Coward]

Like I said though, transmission by sexual activity vastly outshadows all other transmission mechanisms, including by birth (odds of a HIV positive mom passing it onto unborn child are not that great, IIRC about 50%).

5.5 million South Africans were living with HIV at the end of 2005, including 240,000 children under 15 years old.

So, 5.5 million minus 240,000, divided by two (assuming half are female) gives us 2,630,000 potential mothers. If only one-fifth of them bear children, that gives us 526,000 kids, half of whom will be HIV infected, which closely agrees with the initial number of children.

Sorry, dude, the numbers that you say support your position disagree with your prejudices.

Re:Humans too...

[Debello]

Now this doesn't mean they are giving birth to kids but they are sexually active and those are just the ones with HIV. Although AIDS and HIV are an STD, if you have AIDS and give birth to a child, there is a chance that the child will be born with AIDS. So just because they have HIV does not mean that they are sexually active.

Re:Humans too...

[Eivind Eklund]

HIV can be transmitted from mother to child, and through poor hygiene (getting other's blood in your own small cuts), and through the (medical or drug) use of needles that aren't properly sterilized. HIV infection is not any clear indicator of sexual activity.

Not that I would be surprised at sexual activity at 15 - as far as I remember, the average sexual debut age here (Norway) is 15 for girls (17 for boys). It is at least clear that sexual debut before 15 is quite common.

Eivind.

Re:Humans too...

[Codifex Maximus]

>> Is that not what I am saying they had many who died very very young and made the rest reproduce like rabbits to compensate for the death.

I have to agree with this statement. Look at family statistics here in the U.S.A. prior to around 1940. Family pictures often show a long line of kids from short to tall. Infant mortality was a very real thing and families were larger back then - pretty much had to be. Heck, after WWII, there was this thing called the Baby Boom to replenish the population.

By the way, rabbits are the perfect example. They reproduce fast and young because they are a primary food animal for many predators. If they didn't reproduce the way they do then they would be extinct.

Re:Humans too...

[sumdumass]

There were rumors at one time that a home remedy for AIDS was to have sex with a virgin. A lot of these girls were simply raped if there is any truth to it.

Re:Humans too...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why that poster assumed they all got HIV from sex.

Maybe it's because he's a fucking imbecile?

Re:Humans too...

[Hognoxious]

The point you were making that they may have had children earlier in the Middle Ages

I think it's pretty unlikely that they could. Consider that the onset of puberty is getting earlier, that implies that it was later then than it is now. Then add in disease and malnutrituion which are going to retard development rather than accelerate it.

If people were marrying earlier it was most likely for financial or political advantage, and mainly royalty & the nobility.

Re:Humans too...

[BadIdea]

Of course there was no truth to it.

Re:Humans too...

[Anonymous Coward]

5.5 million South Africans were living with HIV at the end of 2005, including 240,000 children under 15 years old.

5.5 million minus 240,000, divided by two (assuming half are female) gives us 2,630,000 potential mothers. If only one-fifth of them bear children, that gives us 526,000 kids, half of whom (according to a downstream poster) will be HIV infected, which closely agrees with the initial number of children.

It sounds feasible that those children were born with HIV, not that they contracted it sexually.

Re:Humans too...

[Anonymous Coward]

The teen pregnancy and abortion statistics in South Africa are off the friggin charts, this is not some secret or unknown or debatable question we're dealing with here, we're talking about pretty well-known facts via other stats.

This is the same fear-mongering pseudo-statistic that gets thrown out in debates in the US from time to time. You do realize, don't you, that the phrase "teen pregnancy and abortion" can also include people between the ages 16 to 19? A year-by-year analysis, I suspect, would reveal that there are very few pregnancies in South Africa in the 13 to 15 year-old set, since poor nutrition delays the onset on menses. This don't mean that there aren't children being forced to have sex too early, just that pregnancy statistics are worthless for judging that statement. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, due to better nutrition, the US led the world in per-capita pregnancies among 13-15 year olds, not because more US kids are having sex than anywhere else, but because the ones that do are much more likely to become pregnant.

Re:Humans too...

[Miniluv]

I believe the parent meant the reports that this rumor was floating around. Seeing as I've heard it reported by both the BBC and NPR and attributed by both to several well respected NGOs doing work on the ground in South Africa and other parts of the continent I'd say it was almost certainly truly being put out there and practiced, though I doubt it amounted for more than a minority percentage of infections.

The other comment which suggested that prenatal infection was likely a major factor was much more likely on the money. With the way that many government officials all over Africa are practicing behavior ranging from extreme apathy to outright antipathy for those infected and for anything resembling modern medicine its understandable that simple treatments which are shown to dramatically reduce the risk of in the womb infection aren't being used widely.

Re:Humans too...

[sumdumass]

No truth to the rumor being present or no truth to the having sex with a virgin would cure AIDS? Or both?

I figured it would be untrue about curing AIDS, I just don't know much about the rumor itself.

Re:Humans too...

[Weedlekin]

"That's how long one -could- live, while 40 years was a statistical average across the population."

An excellent point. 90% of people born during the Middle ages died by the age of 12, but those who reached 13 had good probability of living the Biblical three score and ten years (70).

"The point you were making that they may have had children earlier in the Middle Ages as a consequence of the death rate is valid."

But it was the the childhood death rate they were trying to overcome, not that among adults. As is the case in some of the poorer countries today, the only real hope that people had of being looked after in their old age was by ensuring that their children would take care of them, and the best way to do that was by having lots of kids in the hope that at least one or two of them would survive to adult-hood. Lethal childhood diseases were still prevalent even in the first world well into the 20th century -- my mother for example was born in London in 1928, and caught throat diphtheria as a small child. She obviously survived, but some of her friends didn't, and most people knew families who'd lost kids to whooping cough, polio (which frequently permanently crippled those who survived it), and various other "fevers" of an undefined nature. This was a time when medical knowledge was significantly more advanced than during the Middle Ages, so children afflicted with such ailments stood a much better chance of surviving, but diphtheria alone still killed around 10% to 15% of children who were infected by it in both the US and UK during the 1920s (it's estimated to have killed around 15,000 in the US during that decade, of which the vast majority were children).

The fact that our main children's health worries in the 1st world are things like obesity, low self esteem, and Attention Deficit Disorder serves to indicate how far we've come in a period short enough for there to people still living who remember a time when the children of even wealthy families could easily become infected with one of several potentially lethal diseases.

Re:Humans too...

[BeanThere]

*Sigh* ... you are *completely* clueless, on so many levels, I cannot help you out of it, sorry.

Re:Humans too...

[BeanThere]

Prejudices? Where did I display a prejudice? Explain, and back up that accusation with some evidence. I'm sorry if the facts are biased against whatever you seem to think is the case, but I actually live here, I know a little more about this than you. You do realise you are using COMPLETELY made up statistics? ("If only one-fifth", WTF)

Re:Humans too...

[BeanThere]

Here are a few ACTUAL statistics, so you can stop repeating your ignorant and prejudiced viewpoints:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20050429103530387C962494

More than a fifth of South Africa children are having sex by age 14. Over a third by age 15, and nearly 50% by age 16.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2221933,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,6119,2-7-1442_1304584,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_1899863,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2227893,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2228181,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2102140,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2173180,00.html

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2078582,00.html

Keep in mind the population size when looking at absolute numbers (population is a small fraction of the US).

Re:Humans too...

[BadIdea]

No truth to the rumor. By what mechanism could anyone ever be cured of a disease by sleeping with someone who happened not to have had sex before? The rumor led to untold numbers of rapes, unfortunately.

Don't tell the religious

[Dr.Altaica]

Of they will start saying it wasn't a big rock from space of bugs but gods punishment for pedophilia that wiped out the dinos and there for god must exist.

Re:Don't tell the religious

[Bryansix]

The Bible doesn't say anything about age of consent. It is stupid people who can't see past their own culture who manufacture this crap up.

Re:Don't tell the religious

[jollyreaper]

The Bible doesn't say anything about age of consent. It is stupid people who can't see past their own culture who manufacture this crap up. You liberal pervert. Next you're going to say that the dinosaurs can procreate outside of wedlock. That just isn't right!

Re:Don't tell the religious

[Dr.Altaica]

Did I say anything about the Bible?
I just said "The Religious"
You know what the Talmud says about Pedophilia?

Re:Don't tell the religious

[renegadesx]

At least it's a step up from beliving dinosaurs were wiped out by some worldwide flood 4000-5000 years ago

Re:Don't tell the religious

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they don't, we genetically engineered them that way.
There is no unauthorized breeding allowed in Jurassic Park.

Poor Dinosaurs...

[__aaclcg7560]

...were aged eight and 10, very young for dinosaurs, which lived to about 30.

And some people still think Logan's Run is science fiction.

Now we know

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt it was the trauma of pre-adult sex that caused their extinction. Pre-adult sex, is there anything it can't be blamed for?

To be young again...

[katterjohn]

and also a dinosaur

Re:To be young again...

[Tablizer]

and also a dinosaur

Yeah, but just try to reach behind with those little arms to scratch your back.

hmm.

[fat bastard of doom]

Kind of like rednecks...

I detect a pattern

[themushroom]

> Dinosaurs Grew Fast and Bred Young

So do urban humans. Did dinosaurs have rap music too?

Re:I detect a pattern

[SpaceLifeForm]

Maybe, but Fred was into rock.

Re:I detect a pattern

[Anonymous Coward]

> Dinosaurs Grew Fast and Bred Young

So do urban humans. Did dinosaurs have rap music too? You wouldn't be working for Hillary Clinton's campaign by any chance, would you?

Re:I detect a pattern

[ultranova]

Did dinosaurs have rap music too?

Only those who used onion routers.

Werning

[sowth]

Sarah Werning's profile page @ Berkeley -- Her photos

I think the story at science daily is more interesting than the BBC one.

Re:Werning

[Anonymous Coward]

" Sarah Werning's profile page @ Berkeley -- Her photos "

Ugh! Next time make it clear that they're not photos of her!

Semelparity

[Amorymeltzer]

This behavior is perhaps what is expected. In a highly predatory environment, it's far more advantageous to reproduce early on because you may not live to reach adulthood. Those kids are less likely to survive than if the organism had waited until maturation, but they are effectively "worth" more as they in turn will reproduce quickly, and so on. This high generation rate as well as very strong forces of selection probably contributed to the increased multitudes of life jumping into existence.

Live fast, Die Young, Leave a Big Scary Corpse

[billstewart]

Oh, wait, that was Rock&Roll, wasn't it...
Guess my g-g-g-generation are turning into dinosaurs.

Re:Live fast, Die Young, Leave a Big Scary Corpse

[Aqua_boy17]

Not nececssarily. Elvis lived fast, died young (kind of) but definitely left a big scary corpse...

...ducks and runs

Master of Orion 2 confirms it

[Anonymous Coward]

Sakkra: +100% growth rate

Poor dinosaurs

[iminplaya]

You were too fast to live, too young to die, bye bye.

Partially correct.. but wrong on substence

[Actually, I do RTFA]

"Life expectancy" is an average value that takes into account the length of time that everyone lives, regardless of cause of death, and like all averages without any other context this can skew your perception. It's not that people died of "old age" at around 40 (presumably due to the harsh life they lived), they could easily live to be 60, 70, or even older. It's that a huge number of people died when they were very young, dragging down the average. What that 40 year life expectancy is really showing you is the effect of the extremely high infant mortality rate in that period.

You're right that when most people say "Life expectancy" they mean at birth. However, life expectancy changes as a person ages, as the remaining amount of time a person will live (on average). To correct for high infant mortality, the life expectancy can be taken at 5 or 10 years. In this case, the numbers indicate that 40 years was excluding the infant morality. Please note, this numbers are when the Black Plague was at its least virulent.

Age Remaining Total 00 31.3 31.3 10 32.2 42.2 20 25.2 45.2 30 21.8 51.8 40 16.6 56.6 60 08.3 68.3 80 03.8 83.8

Life expectancy of dinosaurs...

[RealGrouchy]

...dinosaurs, which lived to about 30. Growing up, I was very curious of this figure. Everywhere I saw dinosaurs talked about, it's how long ago they lived, or how long each period lasted. But almost always overlooked is the average lifespan of a dinosaur.

Glad to finally find out.

- RG>

Re:Life expectancy of dinosaurs...

[Weedlekin]

"But almost always overlooked is the average lifespan of a dinosaur"

I don't think the figures given are a particularly good guide, because fossilisation events on land in particular tend to be much more frequent when some sort of disaster occurs such as a flood drought, volcano blowing up, etc., and we rarely have very many examples of a particular dinosaur type anyway, so the age that these adult animals died at doesn't necessarily say a huge amount about either their average or maximum life spans under normal circumstances.

forcing me to revisit my childhood

[Lord_of_the_nerf]

This is going to have me revisiting The Land Before Time and the Denver the Last Dinosaur for the sexual subtext.

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

They're growing as fast as big birds and big mammals.

I thought big bird was permanently 3 years old..?

young??

[emeraldfoxx]

the two females were aged eight and 10, very young for dinosaurs, which lived to about 30.

How is this young for dinosaurs? 10 years old is 1/3rd of their lifespan. Thats like saying a human that's 30 years old is very young. I mean don't get me wrong, its not old by no means, but its sure old enough to have at least one kid if not more.

Unless you are a Cretionist

[Quiet_Desperation]

Dinosaurs Grew Fast and Bred Young

They also lived fast, died young and left beautiful corpses.

Sacrilege

[Tablizer]

This is why the church is against dino porn!