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Why Privacy & Security Are Not a Zero-Sum Game

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Ars Technica has up a nice article on why security consultant Ed Giorgio's statement that 'privacy and security are a zero-sum game' is wrong. The author reasons that, due to Metcalfe's law, the more valuable a government network is to the good guys, the more valuable it is to the bad guys. Given the trend in government to gather all of its eggs into one database, unless more attention is paid to privacy, we'll end up with neither security nor privacy. In other words, privacy and security are a positive-sum game with precarious trade-offs — you can trade a lot of privacy away for absolutely no gain in security, but you don't have to."

11 of 131 comments (clear)

  1. Yes, well ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    he's right ... but the thing is, the Federal Government isn't doing this to provide us with more security, they're doing it to provide themselves with more power, power over us. Consequently, they don't much care about our privacy, and there's no reasoning with them on that score.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    1. Re:Yes, well ... by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 5, Insightful

      he's right ... but the thing is, the Federal Government isn't doing this to provide us with more security, they're doing it to provide themselves with more power, power over us. Consequently, they don't much care about our privacy, and there's no reasoning with them on that score.

      You're right about that-- but they also don't much care about our security, for the same reasons. As long as some "bread and circuses" rewards them political brownie points, they can pass legislation "designed to increase security" that actually decreases it, and they can still come out ahead while the rest of us lose...

      If you want either security or privacy, the absolute last place to look for it is the Federal Government-- they're much of the problem, not the solution.

    2. Re:Yes, well ... by slarrg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To prove your point, let's propose to make congress the most secure place on earth by taking all of their privacy away. If removing privacy makes them secure they should do it, however, if removing their privacy makes them less powerful....

    3. Re:Yes, well ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All Americans suck because they'd gladly trade their privacy (without even knowing it) for the mere perception of security (without even verifying that the trade went through).

      Sufficiently general?

    4. Re:Yes, well ... by h4rm0ny · · Score: 4, Insightful


      You're modded funny, but it would make us more secure. Imagine people knowing everything that was discussed and brokered in the Government, listening to all the meetings with lobbyists. These people represent you, why shouldn't you know what they're doing?

      --

      Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
  2. Right, in theory... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But... that's not the point now.

    The current system of more and more data collecting isn't for more security. That's just how it's sold. It is, bluntly, control. Over your data and you. It is easier to pinpoint and neutralize "troublemakers" before they start gaining a lot of support.

    So I guess this very interesting point will go unheard. The ones that implement the system don't care (actually, they want it to be that way), the masses don't know (or think that zero-sum game is some sort of game show) and the little rest doesn't matter (and should they start to get too vocal, we'll invent a law against them).

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Right, in theory... by unlametheweak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes it is control, but people fail to realize the psychological aspects of privacy, that is from the perspective of the spy.

      Having the ability to know everything about both their friends and their foes gives them a feeling of control, however transient and imaginary that may be. It is the act of trying to control their own psychological insecurity.

      It's like a patriarch snooping through their child's belongings, or reading their diary, it gives them a sense of power. In the end it doesn't matter why they do it; they have a compulsion to do it. It is not surprising that leaders in government and industry would do this because the same psychological motivations that drove them to positions of power are the same motivations that drive them to gain control in other areas. Much like Ford or Disney wanted to have total control of their employees; the same types of people in power today have the same psychological needs. Only laws and enforcement of laws that aim at mitigating these behaviors can help stifle the worst abuses. The real problem is trying to convince these people to give up some of this power once they have it. It's not an easy task. Nobody wants to give up (power).

  3. Darwin's law of terrorism... by gillbates · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Terrorists who get caught don't continue to plan attacks...

    The fundamental problem with the privacy-vs-security argument is that it is a false dichotomy:

    1. When someone says, "I have no problem with the government listening in on my conversations or reading my emails," I ask, "Are you a terrorist?". Inevitably, they reply in the negative. Which leads me to ask, "How then, does the government reading your emails make anyone more secure?" Often, this results in an awkward silence, and then they begin to get it.
    2. Sometimes, they'll quip, "Well, how do they know who the terrorists are if they don't read all of the emails..." To which I reply, "If a terrorist is so dumb so as to discuss their plans over the phone or email, how much damage could they do?" I'll remind them of Richard Reid, who was so dumb he didn't know plastic explosives couldn't be detonated with matches.

    The fundamental problem with eavesdropping is that it assumes that the bad guys are willing to divulge key operational details over an insecure channel. Even the dumbest of criminals knows to shut up when the cops are around. So who do the feds expect to catch? That's right - ordinary Americans like you and me. When we become a "problem" to those in power, they'll have hours of phone calls and pages of emails, in which they will find something - no matter how innocent - which, when taken out of context, sounds nefarious. The famous quote, "Give me six sentences by even the most upright man and I will find a reason to hang him..." (or similar) comes to mind.

    Rather, I think it is helpful to expose the lies used to increase the amount of political power wielded by the executive branch.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  4. Well, yes, but... by caitsith01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...they justify it and gain popular support/acquiescence using supposedly rational arguments, so it is a worthwhile expenditure of effort to criticise and dismantle those arguments.

    So if some security expert idiot is wandering around convincing people that security "versus" privacy is a "zero sum game", then one effective counter-tactic is to explain how that is incorrect.

    You are not reasoning with "them" as in, "the Federal Government". You are reasoning with "them" as in, "your fellow citizens, whose approval or at least inaction is needed to allow these things to happen."

    --
    Read Pynchon.
  5. That comment was elegant propaganda. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As an actual assessment of security policy "Privacy and Security are a zero-sum game" is pretty much worthless. There are obvious empirical counterarguments viz. prisons, military bases and ships, and OpenBSD. The statement manages to be both too optimistic and too pessimistic all at once. It ignores the fact that many policies end up achieving a net gain of less than zero(letting the TSA bother passengers and not even glance at cargo, for instance), even if we value security and privacy equally. It also ignores the fact that there a fair number of possible policies that achieve a positive net gain.

    As a propaganda slogan, though, it is a masterstroke. It manages to imply, while sounding like good, solid, hardheaded, professional advice, that reductions in privacy automatically provide security, that defenders of privacy are enemies of security, and that proposals for plans that protect privacy and security are a bunch of unrealistic pie-in-the-sky crap.

    It also manages to completely ignore a facet of security that the American public has been absolutely terrible at(and politicians and the media have been all too willing to help them continue to be so): Risk assessment. We suck at it. We also have a strong bias in favor of flashy interventions and against boring ones. We often end up with interventions strongly modified by various political interests and of sharply reduced effectiveness. "Privacy and Security are a zero-sum game" makes it sound like we actually have it pulled together, that the professionals are on the case; when we hardly know what game we are actually playing.

  6. "Security" is a greater threat than terrorism by radtea · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Number of people who have been killed in the United States in the past five years by terrorism: zero.

    Number of people who have been killed by the over-zealous organs of the state in the name of "security": greater than zero.

    Ergo, increased "security" is killing people and stripping them of their privacy. So as a matter of empirical fact the things people are calling "security" are negative, and the loss of privacy is negative, so it is a lose-lose situation for ordinary law-abiding Americans. They would be SAFER with less "security", as well as having more privacy. And more of something else, too.

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.