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The Tree of Life Consolidates

Roland Piquepaille writes "The Tree of Life is an expression first used by Charles Darwin to describe the diversity of organisms on Earth and their evolutionary history. There are only two life forms, — eukaryotes, which gather their genetic material in a nucleus, and prokaryotes, such as bacteria, which have their genetic material floating freely in the cell. Until recently, eukaryotes, which include humans, were divided into five groups. But now, based on work by European researchers, the Tree of Life has lost a branch. After doing the largest ever genetic comparison of life forms they concluded that there are only four groups of eukaryotes."

266 comments

  1. Science is a moving target by davidwr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The more we know, the more we know that what we knew was wrong.

    Or, as a coworker of mine used to say when we realized we didn't know what we were doing: "Everything you know is wrong."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Science is a moving target by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 2, Funny

      This is precisely why we believe in the guy up in the clouds who pulls the strings behind the curtains!

      Oh wait...

      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    2. Re:Science is a moving target by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Or, as a coworker of mine used to say when we realized we didn't know what we were doing: "Everything you know is wrong."


      "Black is white, up is down and short is long."

      Just forget the words and sing along!
    3. Re:Science is a moving target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, as my middle-school science teacher used to say, "Science is a lie that keeps getting better."

        It's nice to admit that we're not taught the absolute truth -- and that when we grow up we can not teach the absolute truth to our children in a much clearer way.

    4. Re:Science is a moving target by onemorechip · · Score: 2

      "Everything you know is wrong" -- also the title of a very funny Firesign Theatre album.

      --
      But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
    5. Re:Science is a moving target by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 1

      You work with Weird Al? Sweet!

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    6. Re:Science is a moving target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cats and dogs, living together! Its pandemonium!

    7. Re:Science is a moving target by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Groovy, but answer me this: does our inability to teach the absolute truth preclude the existence of such?

    8. Re:Science is a moving target by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      "Everything you know is wrong, including this statement."

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    9. Re:Science is a moving target by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I was going to say. Weird Al nerds unite and all that.
      -l

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    10. Re:Science is a moving target by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      For all the article's blaring headlines, this actually isn't all that big of a deal in terms of anything previous being wrong or anything substantive overturned. It's basically a small insight that allows us to have more consistent Linnaean naming convention (a system that is already well known to be deeply flawed and clumsy... but hey, it's tradition!). For cladists, it's an interesting bit of extra detail about previously uncertain connections, but changes nothing much at all.

      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
  2. Oops, my bad by sm62704 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I should be more careful with that chainsaw. Poor tree, only 5 branches , I hope it survives...

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:Oops, my bad by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, just graft on a branch from the tree of insanity. Nobody will notice the difference.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
  3. First we lose pluto and now we lose this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    What else will science rob from us before we decide enough is enough?

    1. Re:First we lose pluto and now we lose this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Science is a terrorist.

  4. PLoS ONE: Phylogenomics Reshuffles the Eukaryotic by davidwr · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Phylogenomics Reshuffles the Eukaryotic Supergroups

    Fabien Burki1*, Kamran Shalchian-Tabrizi3, Marianne Minge3, Åsmund Skjæveland3, Sergey I. Nikolaev2, Kjetill S. Jakobsen3, Jan Pawlowski1

    1 Department of Zoology and Animal Biology, University of Geneva, Geneva, Switzerland, 2 Department of Genetic Medicine and Development, University of Geneva, Geneva, Switzerland, 3 Department of Biology, University of Oslo, Oslo, Norway
    Abstract
    Background

    Resolving the phylogenetic relationships between eukaryotes is an ongoing challenge of evolutionary biology. In recent years, the accumulation of molecular data led to a new evolutionary understanding, in which all eukaryotic diversity has been classified into five or six supergroups. Yet, the composition of these large assemblages and their relationships remain controversial.
    Methodology/Principle Findings

    Here, we report the sequencing of expressed sequence tags (ESTs) for two species belonging to the supergroup Rhizaria and present the analysis of a unique dataset combining 29908 amino acid positions and an extensive taxa sampling made of 49 mainly unicellular species representative of all supergroups. Our results show a very robust relationship between Rhizaria and two main clades of the supergroup chromalveolates: stramenopiles and alveolates. We confirm the existence of consistent affinities between assemblages that were thought to belong to different supergroups of eukaryotes, thus not sharing a close evolutionary history.
    Conclusions

    This well supported phylogeny has important consequences for our understanding of the evolutionary history of eukaryotes. In particular, it questions a single red algal origin of the chlorophyll-c containing plastids among the chromalveolates. We propose the abbreviated name 'SAR' (Stramenopiles+Alveolates+Rhizaria) to accommodate this new super assemblage of eukaryotes, which comprises the largest diversity of unicellular eukaryotes.

    Citation: Burki F, Shalchian-Tabrizi K, Minge M, Skjæveland Å, Nikolaev SI, et al. (2007) Phylogenomics Reshuffles the Eukaryotic Supergroups. PLoS ONE 2(8): e790. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0000790

    Academic Editor: Geraldine Butler, University College Dublin, Ireland

    Received: June 17, 2007; Accepted: July 26, 2007; Published: August 29, 2007

    Copyright: © 2007 Burki et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.

    Funding: This research was supported by the Swiss National Science Foundation grant 3100A0-100415 and 3100A0-112645 (JP); and by research grant (grant no 118894/431) from the Norwegian Research Council (KSJ).

    Competing interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.

    * To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: Fabien.Burki@zoo.unige.ch
    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  5. First used by Darwin? by Fyre2012 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "The Tree of Life is an expression first used by Charles Darwin"

    So Charles Darwin, born in the 1809, predates the Kabbalah?

    --
    This is not the greatest .sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
    1. Re:First used by Darwin? by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Informative

      "The Tree of Life is an expression first used by Charles Darwin"

      So Charles Darwin, born in the 1809, predates the Kabbalah? That's cosmology, not biology.
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    2. Re:First used by Darwin? by Mark+Gordon · · Score: 1

      So the Kabbalah predates the Torah?

    3. Re:First used by Darwin? by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      The Tree of Life is an expression first used by Charles Darwin to describe the diversity of organisms on Earth and their evolutionary history

      I didn't know the Kabbalah involved discussion of evolutionary history. Or possibly you should quote entire sentences rather than out of context fragments which support your unjustified criticisms.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    4. Re:First used by Darwin? by Afecks · · Score: 1

      So the Torah predates the Egyptian deity Saosis's tree of life?

    5. Re:First used by Darwin? by Fyre2012 · · Score: 1

      well, it was more an attempt at a bad joke than a criticism.
      But thanks for the response!

      --
      This is not the greatest .sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
    6. Re:First used by Darwin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You beat me to it. Exactly, this has been a jewish metaphor for thousands of years.

    7. Re:First used by Darwin? by Empiric · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Right. For biology, we can go earlier. ;)

      Jesus said, "Blessed is he who came into being before he came into being. If you become my disciples and listen to my words, these stones will minister to you. For there are five trees for you in Paradise which remain undisturbed summer and winter and whose leaves do not fall. Whoever becomes acquainted with them will not experience death."

      --Gospel of Thomas

      cf. Matthew 3:9, if you're supposed to. If per Mark 4:12, you aren't supposed to, please don't!

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    8. Re:First used by Darwin? by lowededwookie · · Score: 1

      Actually the book of Genesis talks about the tree of life in chapter 3 and that was written thousands of years before Darwin was a glimmer in the milkman's eye. And before you use that whole genetics context think about what the book of Genesis starts off talking about, the creation of mankind via two individuals.

    9. Re:First used by Darwin? by Gogogoch · · Score: 1

      I don't get it. If life began so many years ago surely there were no books. And if there was, where did they come from? You need a bookmaker to make a book, but if the book is about these primitive forms of life, how could there be a bookmaker?

      Don't you think Charles Darwin was hinting at the existence of God when he used that expression - "Book of Life", since who but God could be using a book at that point in history? Plus, the biblical reference is clear - as someone pointed out.

      Finally, the four branches of life make sense since there are four letter in God's name - YHWH (Yarweh). A bet the ancient Aramaic words for those branches translate to this acronym - just a hunch.

      Only joking. On a serious note - please quote the whole sentence, not just a snippet. "Tree of life" is an ancient expression, but first used by Darwin in a different and special way.

    10. Re:First used by Darwin? by Fyre2012 · · Score: 1

      But this is /., i didn't RTFS beyond what I copied and pasted to try and make a lame joke, let alone TFA =)

      --
      This is not the greatest .sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
    11. Re:First used by Darwin? by Gogogoch · · Score: 1

      In that case, the joke is on me - nice one.

    12. Re:First used by Darwin? by famebait · · Score: 1

      if the book is about these primitive forms of life, how could there be a bookmaker?

      Yeah, I mean what are the odds?

      --
      sudo ergo sum
  6. Not really a tree... by myowntrueself · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While a tree-structure is algorithmically convenient and very enticing... the "tree of life" is not a tree.

    Ie it is not a "directed, acyclic graph".

    Unfortunately it has 'cycles'.

    Blame retroviruses; they can take genetic material from one species and insert it into the genome of another thereby creating cross-branches.

    As I recall, from my genetics days, baboon retroviruses are a great example of this. Again, IIRC, domestic cats and humans both contain fragments of baboon retroviruses.

    Its possible that the "Cambrian explosion" is a sign of the appearance of retroviruses on the scene.

    The thing is that it is significantly harder to reason about graphs; trees are so much easier to deal with.

    So its very tempting to see things like this as trees and to 'simplify out' the nasty cross-branches.

    (I've studied genetics, computer science, logic and discrete math)

    --
    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    1. Re:Not really a tree... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're substantially exaggerating the effect that horizontal gene transfer has on the tree. ERVs are taken into account, and are in fact, quite useful in narrowing down where specific species and higher cladistic groupings sit in the tree.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Not really a tree... by Otter · · Score: 2, Informative
      Unfortunately it has 'cycles'.

      Someone helpfully linked the paper (and was modded down for his trouble); they address that concern extensively.

    3. Re:Not really a tree... by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't it be a directed, cyclic graph? All connections only go in one direction: forward through time.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    4. Re:Not really a tree... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Ie it is not a "directed, acyclic graph".

      Unfortunately it has 'cycles'. I'm sure that's a correct mathematical defintion, but it doesn't apply to common usage. If you take a large family tree you'll almost certainly find some common ancenstors like sharing a great grandfather from the time people found their spouses in small rural communities. That doesn't prevent us from calling it a family tree, as long as it has a direction in time that branches out to multiple individuals/species I don't think a anyone but a mathematician would object.
      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Not really a tree... by rucs_hack · · Score: 1

      While the tree of life does have cycles, those are similar adaptations to similar problems, and can occur in diverse species which have been seperate for many millions of years.

      Take the saber tooth adaption. That's been recurring since the pre-dinosaur reptilian era. Always to solve the same basic problem.

    6. Re:Not really a tree... by phliar · · Score: 1

      Indeed. In fact some (e.g. Lynn Margulis) believe that this is the primary way species evolve, not through mutation. See her book Aquiring Genomes .

      --
      Unlimited growth == Cancer.
    7. Re:Not really a tree... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Tree != Directed, acyclic graph.

      In a tree, each node has exactly one parent. Even if links are bidirectional, non-trivial cycles cannot exist. In a DAG, nodes can have multiple parents; making links bidirectional could create cycles. Every (unidirectional) tree is a DAG, but not every DAG is a tree.

      The "tree of life" IS a directed acyclic graph - even when considering retroviruses, since "higher" organisims have more than one parent. Retroviruses allow gene transfer between individuals of different species, thus allowing organisms to have more than two parents. A cycle would mean that some individual received genetic material from one of its descendents. If you define an individual as a set of genes that is available to pass on to descendents, then a cycle, by definition, cannot exist.

    8. Re:Not really a tree... by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Not just this.

      Genetic material can be exchanged between without any reproductive connection.

      Retroviruses can lift genetic material from one organism and insert it into the *germ* *line* DNA of another organism.

      This genetic material is then replicated by the second organism in its descendants.

      Two species can share genetic material which they did not inherit from a common ancestor.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    9. Re:Not really a tree... by Antibozo · · Score: 1

      Ie it is not a "directed, acyclic graph".

      Unfortunately it has 'cycles'.

      Blame retroviruses; they can take genetic material from one species and insert it into the genome of another thereby creating cross-branches.

      A tree is not the same thing as a directed acyclic graph (DAG). What you describe, with cross branches, is a directed acyclic graph—cross branches do not necessarily create cycles in a DAG. A tree is a directed acyclic graph with a unique root node from which there is a unique path to every other node. There are many kinds of directed acyclic graphs that do not have this property.

    10. Re:Not really a tree... by ardle · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with that :-)

    11. Re:Not really a tree... by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

      Your comments are reasonable, but I think a bit misleading in this context.

      At the scale of this research, life really is a tree. I doubt there are retroviruses which are able to transfer genetic material between (e.g.) plants and animals. Even if there is a low level of horizontal gene transfer, this is just a small perturbation on the tree model: just because there is a canal between two rivers, we don't claim that they are really one river, or that the canal is where the two rivers join.

      At least for eukaryotes, there are two mechanisms for horizontal gene transfer: retroviruses and hybridization. Hybridization only works between quite closely related species (although it is rife in plants). Reteroviruses can shift genetic material over greater evolutionary distances, but your examples are still all within mammals - a small twig when we're looking at the tree of all eukaryotes.

      As well as the horizontal gene transfer/hybridization problem with treating evolution as a tree, there is another reason to instead model it as a network: presenting your data as a tree does not distinguish between branchings that are well established, and those which are questionable. There is software for doing 'network' (instead of 'tree') analyses of phylogeny - the best known is "SplitsTree".

      (I am a researcher in genetics and phylogeny.)

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    12. Re:Not really a tree... by JTeutenberg · · Score: 1
      If the connections all go forward in time then it is a directed acyclic graph. To form a cycle some arc must go "backwards" up the graph.

      Trees are a subset of directed acyclic graphs are a subset of directed graphs (there's no term "cyclic graph"). The parent post was mistaken and should have said that the tree of life is not a tree, but is a directed acyclic graph.

      Everyone likes nit-picking.

    13. Re:Not really a tree... by sakonofie · · Score: 1

      On a related note, examples of cycles of genetic information have been known since 1822. For a proof of concept see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0s5Kn9QXtU

    14. Re:Not really a tree... by njh · · Score: 1

      You don't understand the definition of Directed Acyclic Graph.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_acyclic_graph

    15. Re:Not really a tree... by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      (I've studied genetics, computer science, logic and discrete math)
      Keep at it! It's great fun!
      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
  7. Archaea by virology-not+for+com · · Score: 5, Informative

    Let's not forget that many scientists think there are three domains (Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes and Archaea). Archaea are very similar to Prokaryotes in that they don't have a nucleus, but they also share many features with Eukaryotes, including several key enzymes. Due to their similarity to the two other lineages, it is thought that Archaea may in fact be the grand daddy of all life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaea

    1. Re:Archaea by Lurker2288 · · Score: 1

      That was my big complaint about the summary; glad to see there are other folks here keeping the faith. ;)

    2. Re:Archaea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Little Nit - Archaea are technically Prokayotes (meaning "before nucleus"). The distinction is not between Prokaryotes and Archaea, but between Archaea and Eubacteria.

      Although you can slice and dice as Eukaryotes/Prokaryotes, it's commonly accepted that Archaea are as different genetically from Eubacteria as Eubacteria are to Eukaryotes. In fact, it is usually said that Archaea are more closely related to Eukaryotes than they are to Eubacteria, so grouping Eubacteria and Archaea together as "Prokaryotes" because they lack a nucleus makes as much sense as grouping bats and birds together because they can fly.

    3. Re:Archaea by reverseengineer · · Score: 3, Informative
      The level of organization being discussed in the paper treats a subdivision of the eukaryotes into "superkingdoms." (There's actually not a completely agreed upon term for this level.) This would put these groups a level below the three domains (Eucarya, Eubacteria, Archaebacteria) proposed by Carl Woese. There's a high-level differentiation between the superkingdoms involved based on organization of flagella, with a high-level split between unikonts (one flagellum) and bikonts (two, naturally). This is of course based on evolutionary ancestry- humans are unikonts, but don't have many cells with flagella.

      The unikonts contain the amoebae lineages in one grouping, and the animal and fungi together in another. The bikonts contain the plants and algaes in one grouping, and also a handful of other groupings which take care of the rest of the eukaryotes, most of which are unicellular organisms of various sort. It is the "various sort" that's being ironed out with this paper- the authors argue that on the basis of a common genetic heritage, a couple of the leftover groupings can be consolidated.

      Ironically, this move would actually reunite groupings that were fairly recently separated by the argument that no firm evidence of relation existed. Back when the "five Kingdoms" (Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Monera, Protista) were considered the top level of organization, Protista existed as a sort of "junk drawer" for simple organisms which did not clearly fit in the other categories. Now it looks as though some of these organisms really are related.

      --
      "FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
    4. Re:Archaea by SNiPeuR · · Score: 1
      From what I learned last year, there is no more proximity between Archaea and Prokaryotes than between Archaea and Eukaryotes or between Prokaryotes and Eukaryotes.
      (Hum, happy to see there is only 3 branchs because C(n,2)'s growth is exponential...) Err wait a minute!

      beginning geek session...$

      Welcome to Enso! Enter a command, or type "help" for assistance.
      > open scilab-4.1.2

      scilab-4.1.2
      Startup execution:
      loading initial environment

      -1->function r=fact(n); r=1; for i=2:n; r=r*i; end; endfunction
      -1->function r=binom(n,p); r=fact(n)/(fact(n-p)*fact(p)); endfunction
      -1->function r=gen(n); for i=1:n; r(i)=binom(i,2); end; endfunction

      -1->n=1000;plot(1:n,gen(n))
      Well, it seems to be... if someone can give more details than a simple graph!
      A little bit off-topic... sorry :)

      Don't forget to visit this Wikipedia's entry...
    5. Re:Archaea by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      so grouping Eubacteria and Archaea together as "Prokaryotes" because they lack a nucleus makes as much sense as grouping bats and birds together because they can fly.

      I don't think they said lacking a nucleus was the sole criteria, but rather there is a pattern that suggests lacking a nucleus indicates a common evolutionary path based on lots of features. But it may be difficult to know what is truly an inherited feature/protein or convergent evolution.

    6. Re:Archaea by dotancohen · · Score: 1
      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    7. Re:Archaea by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      It was my understanding that we'd gone from "many think that" to pretty much accepting this model. The terminology and naming conventions are, of course, always a mess, but on the substantive issues, these three big groups seemed pretty much a done deal to me last time I checked.

      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
  8. Proof? by Amorymeltzer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anyone who says "Evolution is taken as faith" or doesn't understand that the theory is based on the evidence, and that new evidence means changing the theory can look at this and shut up. A rather fundamental point was proposed to be rather fundamentally different based on new research and that's just fine. Whether it pans out or not, this is a beautiful example of the glory of science.

    --
    I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
    1. Re:Proof? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Informative

      No but Evolution is still mostly theory but it is the best current theory. At least some evolution has been seen in the "wild". Drug resistant bacteria is a good example of evolution in action.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:Proof? by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Define "seen"? Because by your argument, electrons may or may not exist, Proto-Indo-European may or may not have existed and you may or may not have had great-great-grand-parents.

      Evolution is confirmed not just by observing what goes on now, but by observing the fossil record, and just as importantly nowadays, by gathering molecular data. These two lines of evidence fit very well together into the so-called twin-nest hierarchy.

      If you wish to wander down the road of epistemological nihilism, that's your affair, but be aware that everything, and I mean everything you think you know you can't actually know at all. Either you admit that inference is a legitimate means of gathering factual knowledge, or you render the whole show, including what you see, hear, touch, feel and taste irrelevant.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Proof? by Tsiangkun · · Score: 1

      Evolution is a fact.
      Evolution accounting for some of the diversity of life on this planet is also fact.

      The theory is that evolution accounts for all of the diversity in life on this planet.

      There may well be multiple instances of origins of life, thus evolution as the basis for all diversity would be false.

    4. Re:Proof? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "electrons may or may not exist", not exactly. A particle wave duality that carries a negative does exist. Some of the theory about what a electron really is still in the realm of theory.

      Evolution is still a theory and as I said it is the theory that fits with all the current data the best. But the theory of Evolution is still just a theory. A lot of questions are still unanswered about how Evolution works. Being scientific means having an open mind about scientific theories. You should keep your mind open but not so open that your brain falls out.

      Anyone that says that the current theory of evolution is fact isn't being scientific.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:Proof? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      What part of the Theory of Evolution is fact? Is evolution gradual as Charles Darwin first stated or is punctuated? What is the mechanism of evolution? Is it limited to changes in DNA or can it us other mechanisms? What about the effects of retroviruses on evolution? What about mitochondrial DNA?
      Or you talking about the simple fourth grade level "Theory of Evolution"? AKA life changes over time to fit the environment?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    6. Re:Proof? by Tsiangkun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The aquisition or modification of gene function over time is fact.
      The accumulation of DNA modifications over time is a fact.
      The aquisition of gene function due to alteration of DNA sequence is a fact.
      The modification of gene function due to alteration of DNA sequence is a fact.
      The modification of gene function due to transposable element insertions, and remobilizations, is a fact.
      The alteration of gene function due to chromosomal rearrangements is a fact.
      The generation of neo-centromeres is a fact.
      That neo-centromeres are stability propagated over time is a fact.

      Evolution is not limited to changes in DNA, it is also caused via chromosomal rearragements that change the environment where the gene is expressed.

      It is a fact that retrovirus change gene expression and function. We use them as mutagens all the time in screens for new mutations.

      Evolution of mitochondrial sequences is one of the best known ways for mapping the history of the human race.

    7. Re:Proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhg, do we have to start this every time?

    8. Re:Proof? by KingSH4M4N · · Score: 1

      I think part of the problem is the negative connotation that anti-evolution people give to the word 'theory.' The truth is, 'facts' don't exist (in sciece anyway [and that's all that really matters]). One can make 'observations' and from those, develop theories. I don't see anyone trying to claim that gravity doesn't exist, yet it also is "only" a theory. The difference between gravity and evolution that makes it hard for people to accept one while they plainly expect the other, is that gravity happens in a time scale that is easily perceived within a human lifetime and evolution usually takes a much longer span of time to be noticed. The exceptions include rapidly reproducing organisms such as prokaryotes and viruses in which the mutation rate is fast enough to make the observation that the mutations are subject to selective pressures. Unfortunately, not everyone is privey to experiencing that observation, and so doubt lingers, unlike gravity, where everyone knows it exists. I'm not saying that the theory of evolution will never be disproven, or the theory of gravity for that matter (yet to be detected graviton particles???), but the slide in it's acceptance is more related to timescale of observations rather than from it being unsound or wrong. Getting back to the article, I am glad to see other people have asked the question about lateral gene transfere. I am curious about that myself. It would seem like all the genes they are using to do the phylogenetic analysis could possibly have originated from a different species. For large, multicellular creatures it's more obvious. There are only a limited number of ways for new genes to be added (viruses, etc.), but for single celled organisms, like algae, it's conceivable that there are many very simple vectors for lateral gene transfere. Such simpler systems involving fewer cells could simply eat up genetic material and incorporate it into their genomes, so I wonder if these things are taken into account. In all honesty, I think they probably are. Sequence conservation, biological history, and geological history, and lots of other tools seem like they would make it possible. But I mean come on! Opisthokonts? OPISTHOKONTS??? "Animals" just had such a nice ring to it ;)

      --
      I am not shouting. I am merely speaking in a voice loud enough to be heard.
    9. Re:Proof? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      You seem on one hand to be pretty deeply confused about the nature of evidence in science, and seem to playing pretty fast and loose with the definition of the word "theory" on the other. Basically you're committing an etymological fallacy, and at the same time trying to create an artificial barrier by which a quantum mechanical explanation of the electron can pass muster, but the twin-nested hierarchy of common descent is somehow a lesser quality of observational science.

      You cannot see an electron directly. You can only infer its existence from its effect on phenomona that can be directly viewed. In fact, you can't even do that, because what you "see" is in fact passed down the optic nerve and is heavily processed. Everything you know, whether through your senses or by the aid of instruments, is simply various levels and degrees of inference.

      Evolution is a fact. We observe that the genetic makeup of populations changes over time. We can infer from this and the observations in the fossil and molecular DNA that this process has been ongoing for at least 3.5 billion years. All genomes thus far analyzed fit within the hierarchy. In short, evolutionary theory explains biology just as QM and GR explain physical properties of the universe.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    10. Re:Proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Or you talking about the simple fourth grade level "Theory of Evolution"?

      How about employing a fourth grade level of reading comprehension? He didn't say that the Theory of Evolution is a fact. He said that evolution is a fact. The theory considers how and why that fact occurs.

    11. Re:Proof? by ianare · · Score: 1

      Actually a scientist will say that a scientific theory and fact are not mutualy exclusive. A theory is, simply put, a testable model that makes predictions. That model can be a fact or not, depending on the evidence. It does not have the ordinary usage meaning of 'something which I'm not sure of'.

      Now this does not mean a better theory won't ever be 'found', like when Einstein and his general theory of relativity showed Newton was (partly) wrong with his theory of universal gravitation.

      But for now, the theory of evolution by the process of natural selection *IS* fact. Proven and tested by countless evidence over more than 100 years.

    12. Re:Proof? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "I think part of the problem is the negative connotation that anti-evolution people give to the word 'theory.' The truth is, 'facts' don't exist (in science anyway [and that's all that really matters])."
      So I should change the truth to make the pro-evolution faithful happy because the think that the truth gives the pro-creationism some ammo?
      Sorry but science is science. I would no more want creationism to be taught as a valid scientific theory than I would want Evolution as unquestionable fact.
      As I said Evolution has bee observed but the current theory of Evolution is an incomplete theory. We are learning more about it everyday.
      Being a theory isn't a bad thing. I wish the faithful on both sides would learn that.
      They also need to learn the difference between a valid theory and a failed on.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    13. Re:Proof? by ardle · · Score: 1

      The aquisition or modification of gene function over time is measurable.
      The accumulation of DNA modifications over time is measurable.
      The aquisition of gene function due to alteration of DNA sequence is measurable.
      The modification of gene function due to alteration of DNA sequence is measurable.
      The modification of gene function due to transposable element insertions, and remobilizations, is measurable.
      The alteration of gene function due to chromosomal rearrangements is measurable.
      The generation of neo-centromeres is measurable.
      That neo-centromeres are stability propagated over time is measurable.

      What's evolution again?

    14. Re:Proof? by Tsiangkun · · Score: 1

      measurable, observable, and reproducible . . . facts for all intents and purposes.

      Evolution is a change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual.

      Evolution is an inherited change, wheras a mutation is not always inherited.

    15. Re:Proof? by ardle · · Score: 1

      The Theory Of Evolution is a fact: we're talking about it, aren't we?
      Oh, that kind of fact :-)

    16. Re:Proof? by KingSH4M4N · · Score: 1

      Theories by definition, cannot be tested and fail. Something that is tested and is found valid or failed is called a hypothesis. You're right in that evolution is not an unquestionable fact, that is true, but it is the least questionable. The problem is that people think that there is reason to believe that the theory of evolution is "wrong." True, there is always room for improvement, but so far the theory of evolution has proven to be one of the most reliable and robust theories in science. Even the theory of gravity is incomplete and has many holes, and in many ways is less solid than evolution. Either way it far surpasses the creationism bull, and I really wish people would understand that things are figured out by testing and learning, not by reading the bible and blindly listening to anything. And the truth doesn't give pro-creationists ammo. The simple fact that they have no ammo is what they base it on. It's like, "hey there's absolutely no evidence for this, so therefore it must be devinely true." It all boils down to the philosophical argument that NOTHING CAN BE PROVEN. Science relies entirely on this fact (the only "real fact" [wow that twists the mind]). However, lots of things CAN be disproved, but things that are not based in reality cannot be disproved, like creationism. The simple fact that they base it on nothing that has ever been observed makes them able to say that it cannot be disproved, which is unfortunate because it is absolutely insane. It's like me saying I and only I see purple bunnies all the time, and since you can't see them, you can't prove they're not there. We have words to call these people like schizophrenic. I don't think the masses of religious people are in fact schizophrenic intrinsically, but from the outside the difference cannot be seen. Sometimes these people also make the unfortunate mistake of harming others because they "believe" in something that isn't true ("delusions"). Catholicism is a great example of that. I might also say fundamentalist Islam is another example, but I cannot quite see through the war propaganda enough to stand behind that claim. How many scientific organizations have systematically killed or raped? Maybe they haven't been around long enough, but I just don't think science is driven to harm the way religion is. OK that's enough, sorry I really love this debait.

      --
      I am not shouting. I am merely speaking in a voice loud enough to be heard.
    17. Re:Proof? by oldhack · · Score: 0

      As I said Evolution has bee observed but the current theory of Evolution is an incomplete theory. We are learning more about it everyday.

      All scientific theories are "incomplete." All theories will potentially fail eventually because they are all approximations. Newton's theory of mechanic has been shown to fail in the relativistic realm, but that doesn't mean it's not "valid."

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    18. Re:Proof? by Fastolfe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The things that you observe are facts. One can clearly see that life evolves over time. For long-term study, we have the fossil record. For short-term study, we have bacteria, fruit flies and other organisms that have short life-spans. We can directly observe evolution. This aspect is fact.

      The theory is how evolution occurs. What causes life to evolve over time? The theories that we have are simple, direct, and have no counter-evidence.

      Both sides of this "debate" commonly confuse the two issues (and many even throw in abiogenesis, which makes things worse). Evolution is, in fact, both fact and theory. If one succeeds in completely destroying the theory of evolution, it does nothing to disprove the facts that led us to that theory. Life still evolves over time.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

    19. Re:Proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the problem with modern naturalists is that they ignore the works of both Kant and Godel (who essentially proved the same thing from different angles and to different degrees). Godel showed that even mathematics, i.e., formal logic, is limited and there is in fact knowledge that no matter how carefully derived can't be reached by deductive means (and deductive means are stronger than inductive). See:

      http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/ and
      http://users.ox.ac.uk/~jrlucas/Godel/implic.html

      for some philosophical discussions of the implications of Godel's theorems. In short, "Reality outruns knowledge".

      Kant showed that we are always at the mercy of our experience/perception and that there are in fact undiscoverable truths to our natural senses.

      Either of these ideas in isolation is plenty sufficient to refute naturalistic atheism (based quite dubiously on Darwin).

    20. Re:Proof? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I think you misread Godel and completely misinterpret Kant. The reason for methodological naturalism is to overcome individual biases. I'm not claiming that science could answer every feasible question, but come on.

      Oh, and what the hell does atheism have to do with this?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    21. Re:Proof? by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      You're deeply confused. And I don't get it. I see people misusing and being corrected on their misuse of the word "theory" all the time: you'd think that the number of people misusing it would decrease. There is no "still" a theory. Evolutionary theory is and always will be called a scientific theory, never a fact. It is made up of and supported by all sorts of scientific facts (including things that one might call Evolutionary fact, such as common descent), in fact, but "theory" is science's term for "body of explanation" not "this is just speculation."

      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
    22. Re:Proof? by jafac · · Score: 1

      I got my first REAL telescope at age 35.

      I was actually shocked when I pointed it at Jupiter, and saw, for the first time, with my own eye(s), the moons around Jupiter, and I realized, that I had just taken it for granted all these years.

      It was a very sobering moment for me.

      Because, yeah, they really are out there.

      And Galileo really *did* kick ass.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    23. Re:Proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you'd please point out the errors of my ways regarding Godel and Kant I'd be much grateful. I've read quite a bit about Godel's theorems and I highly doubt there is any misunderstanding either in my mind or in my last post.

      Whether you believe it or not, the moderate community of scientists is, much like the moderate Muslim community, being held hostage by radicals. There are quite a number of people who have been trying to use evolution to advance their own philosophical agendas (Dawkins, Hitchens, Russel). The list goes on really. I wonder if there are any 'moderate' scientists at all that don't give in to their nonsense.

    24. Re:Proof? by johanatan · · Score: 1

      Relying on the 'argumentum ad ignorantium' are we? Or, more specifically in this case, a presumed lack of confidence on the part of your opponent regarding his understanding. This typically works better when you are orating in a [preferably] British accent. But, in this case, it's just words on a screen. I suppose you didn't think i would call your bluff? Come back to the debate my friend, I assure you my understandings of Kant and Godel are entirely accurate. You wouldn't walk away from a debate you don't think you can win would you?

    25. Re:Proof? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, i think i was saying the same thing from Kant that you have said in other posts. Even with the help of microscopes, etc, all information still passes down the optic nerve and is thus viewed through the 'eyes' of us humble humans. We have only 5 senses (and those are limited). What's the say that there isn't 'truth' that is imperceivable by those particular senses.

      And, again, I do not care to argue against 'variation over time'. This much is proven/given. But, the problem with Darwinism as promoted by the atheists is that it is not even close to an explanation for the 'origin' of life (no matter how dubiously these naturalists choose to name their books and present their work-- 'Origin of Species' -- come on. There's nothing about origin there.

    26. Re:Proof? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      If you could provide some evidnece, say, that demonstrated that Dawkins is in fact doing anything that you claim he is, I'd greatly appreciate it. By evidence, I mean evidence of this diabolical plan of his that is contained in primary and peer-reviewed literature, y'know, where actual science is done.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  9. two? by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    There are only two life forms, -- eukaryotes, which gather their genetic material in a nucleus, and prokaryotes, such as bacteria

    Two? For several decades, I thought most biologists considered life as being divided into three main branches ("domains"): eukaryotes, prokaryotes, and archaea.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:two? by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Informative

      it depends on what you're going after in regard to categorization. three domainss: eucaryotes are cells with nuclei where as procaryotes are cells without nuclei with the third group being archea because of the large genetic and structural differences in comparison with bacteria [eubacteria]. although you could also classify them into archea+eubacteria [from the now defunct monera (5 kingdom classification)], protista, animalia, plantae, fungi under the 6 kingdom classification

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    2. Re:two? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Actually, that can't be true for a simple reason: The three-domain system was introduced in 1990...

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  10. Taxonomy especially is inexact. by verbalcontract · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When I was in 9th grade (I guess about 10 years ago!), there were five "kingdoms": bacteria, protista, fungi, plantae, and animalia. Three years later, there were six: archaea, monera, protista, fungi, plantae, and animalia.

    Now there are branches? And four of them? On a tree? That's news to me. But it's all a matter of naming and grouping, so I guess you say potato, I say tomato.

    1. Re:Taxonomy especially is inexact. by Tailsfan · · Score: 2, Funny

      THis will really screw up my AP Bio.

    2. Re:Taxonomy especially is inexact. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Taxonomy is an extremely confused science. Our marine biology teacher used to amuse himself by showing us different new 'trees'. I got the distinct feeling that taxonomists has their own Religious Wars.

      Oh, they used to sort by similarity but genetics changed that. Now they are sorting by heritage, which is saner, but the "official" tree is pretty fucked up. It being an unholy mix.

      I missed that class.

    3. Re:Taxonomy especially is inexact. by oldhack · · Score: 0

      But it's all a matter of naming and grouping, so I guess you say potato, I say tomato.
      Potato is chip, tomato is ketchup, completely different. Except they both come in plastic packaging.
      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    4. Re:Taxonomy especially is inexact. by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Well, when I was in school, there were four food groups, now there are 6, um, bricks I guess, in the food pyramid. There for awhile there was some kind of food ring. I think the scientists just like to change things up to keep us from getting comfortable.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  11. At the risk of being called a Tao-rrorist... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added.
    In the pursuit of understanding, every day something is removed.

    --
    In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
    A stately pleasure dome decree
    1. Re:At the risk of being called a Tao-rrorist... by andphi · · Score: 2

      The Tao that can be expressed . . .

    2. Re:At the risk of being called a Tao-rrorist... by KublaiKhan · · Score: 2, Funny

      Is only a second-order approximation, at best, for the real Tao.

      --
      In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
      A stately pleasure dome decree
  12. Ummm.... by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The Tree of Life must be re-drawn, textbooks need to be changed, and the discovery may also have significant impact on the development of medicines.

    This is a bit over the top. It's not like there's a single canonical "Tree of Life" that's going to have to be changed across the board; there's endless (mostly self-promoting) squabbling over what should be considered fundamental branches, to which this is yet another entry.

    Frankly, if this were as important as they make out, it would be in Nature, not the if-it's-not-objectively-wrong-it's-in PLoS ONE.

    "...the largest ever genetic comparison of higher life forms on the planet"? Maybe, I guess it depends what dimension you measure "largest" on.

    1. Re:Ummm.... by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      The Tree of Life must be re-drawn, textbooks need to be changed, and the discovery may also have significant impact on the development of medicines.

      This message brought to you by Learning Resources Publications(r) and the United Drug Association(tm).

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    2. Re:Ummm.... by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      ...Ohh, and The Artistic Tree Drawers Union.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    3. Re:Ummm.... by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      I would also have thought that the question of whether you draw the phylogenetic tree according to genetic relationships or functional relationships is still open.

      I mean, if organism X shares 92% of its DNA with Y and only 88% with Z, but lives and functions in its ecological niche more like Z than Y, how do you classify them all? Is X closer to Y or Z? I didn't think this question had been settled (assuming it ever can be) among the evolutionary biologists.

    4. Re:Ummm.... by Otter · · Score: 1
      I would also have thought that the question of whether you draw the phylogenetic tree according to genetic relationships or functional relationships is still open.

      I think that's been almost entirely settled in favor of the former; DNA sequencing pretty much shut the door on any remaining advocates of polyphyletics.

    5. Re:Ummm.... by Robert1 · · Score: 1

      and the discovery may also have significant impact on the development of medicines - is such a ridiculous statement that has no basis in anything factual aside from creating sensationalist news articles. They might as well have said
      and the discovery may also have significant impact on the development of space travel,
      AI,
      nuclear fusion reactors,
      stem cell research,

      or whatever.

      Sure it MAY have an impact on all those, but only in the same way as a hobo taking a shit in an alleyway MAY have an impact on those things.

    6. Re:Ummm.... by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      That sounds regrettable. I would be surprised if we did not increasingly find a certain amount of convergence, id est two different sequences of DNA that end up providing the same function in the organism's life. Surely the importance of natural selection in shaping organisms should guarantee that, to some extent.

      In which case, function should continue to be the primary standard for classification, for which DNA homology serves as an excellent proxy.

    7. Re:Ummm.... by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      Seriously, I'm annoyed with most science journalists more and more everyday. Most textbooks already discuss the matter of groupings, as well as mentioning that there are several different competing ideas about the best way to categorize things. The article makes it sound like this latest insight means everything is flat out wrong and needs to be discarded, when in fact all it needs is simply its account of the latest progress in the debate updated in the next edition.

      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
    8. Re:Ummm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do we need Science magazine and Nature journals to tell us what is and what is not important? Can't we be smart enough to decide this? PLoS ONE and other resources give us this chance.

  13. Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by gillbates · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes, being able to correct mistakes is the glory of science. But being right the first time is the glory of religion.

    When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely. When science doesn't get it right, they say, "well, that's just part of the process..."

    Each particular method has its strengths and weaknesses:

    • Religion reveals the truth of divine revelation. Which means that it is true by axiom, not proof. If the "revealed truth" isn't actually true, then it isn't of divine origin. Which does much to explain why religious institutions are very conservative when it comes to accepting new ideas.
    • Mathematics is provably correct. That is, apart from an error in the proof, what is true today will always be true.
    • Science is experimentally correct. That is, the hypotheses called true today may be shown false tomorrow with the discovery of additional data.

    The key, I think, is not to confuse the various levels of truth. Those who take religion as if it were a scientifically-verifiable fact are just as confused as those who think scientific theorems are as reliable and trustworthy as the Gospel or mathematical proofs. There is a large difference between the three, and understanding the subtle limitations of each is just as important as understanding the ideas they espouse.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by NIckGorton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely. No they don't. They just reinterpret the primary tenets of the religion to suit their current desired conclusions. Religious works and religious beliefs are interpreted in the light of the present society and its prejudices. Rather than being taken at face value, they are used to justify what people want to believe. For example, there is no real prohibition against abortion in the Christian Bible. For another example, the selective interpretation of Leviticus as condemnation of homosexuality while ignoring the condemnation of poly-cotton blends and Red Lobster.

      Well, unless you are someone who strictly interprets the OT: http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
    2. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, being able to correct mistakes is the glory of science. But being right the first time is the glory of religion.

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely. When science doesn't get it right, they say, "well, that's just part of the process..."

      So how do you explain the existence of people who believe in the Christian Bible, and yet do not believe that they should stone their children to death if such children show any sign of stubbornness or rebellion? From Deuteronomy 21:18-21

      If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
    3. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by mike2R · · Score: 1

      Religion reveals the truth of divine revelation. Which means that it is true by axiom, not proof. If the "revealed truth" isn't actually true, then it isn't of divine origin. Which does much to explain why religious institutions are very conservative when it comes to accepting new ideas.

      I'm absolutely fine with that. As far as I'm concerned the big fat red line comes when religious "evidence" is fed back into the scientific process.

      As long as this line isn't crossed religion is just religion, and can be treated as such. It's when it starts to intrude upon other areas that the problems start.

      I wouldn't even bother to say this, but I'm terribly afraid that large parts of the American public do not agree.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    4. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Angostura · · Score: 1

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely.


      So to be clear, are you saying that if any aspect of the Bible were shown to be erroneous, there would be no more Christians a week later?
    5. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      I would describe it differently. It is more an issue of claimed completeness of knowledge vs. margin of error in the information we do have.

      Religion: Claimed Completeness = 70%, Margin of error = 100%

      Mathematics: Claimed Completeness = 70%, margin of error = 20%

      Science: Claimed Completeness = 5%, margin of error 50%

    6. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by ppanon · · Score: 1

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely.
      Sometimes. And sometimes those who try to abandon the religion are called heretics, leading to persecutions and wars that last decades or centuries and cost thousands or millions of lives.

      With science, when somebody's wrong, they might lose their grant and need to investigate something else.

      There's lots to learn from religions about how to be happy and live with others as a productive part of society, to everyone's mutual benefit. But the world would be a lot less dangerous if everyone realized that religions are no more a revelation of truth than science is.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    7. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aren't all those "you can't eat this or that" rules abolished in the New Testament?

    8. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by zulater · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But many denominations do try to interpret in context and in light of the culture they were written in. Not to mention that the old law (old covenant/testament) was fulfilled after Christ's death and resurrection. That started the new covenant/testament which has no real limitations on what you eat. This isn't to say that there aren't valid teaching in the old testament but that the rules and regulations for ceremonial cleanliness don't apply anymore since there is no longer a need for sacrificing to cleanse sin. Abortion is murder in the eyes of the church because in most cases the church believes that life begins as conception or when the zygote attaches to the uterus. Many passages speak of God forming the child in the womb (Job 31:15, Psalm 139:15, Isaiah 44:2, Isaiah 49:5 etc). I agree that many do take the scriptures out of context and try to twist them into what they want to hear not what is actually meant. This is the folly of man trying to interpret scripture outside of other scripture.

    9. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by nagora · · Score: 1
      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely

      Eh? On what planet? By that argument there would be no religion left.

      Religion reveals the truth of divine revelation.

      No it doesn't. It reveals the ideas of a small group of philosophers and their students.

      Those who take religion as if it were a scientifically-verifiable fact are just as confused as those who think scientific theorems are as reliable and trustworthy as the Gospel or mathematical proofs.

      While I agree with this, I would say that anyone who "takes religion as if it were a scientifically-verifiable fact" is some sort of headcase.

      TWW

      --
      "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    10. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by yali · · Score: 3, Informative

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely.
      No they don't. They just reinterpret the primary tenets of the religion to suit their current desired conclusions.

      A good demonstration of this is in the classic study When Prophecy Fails. A group of social psychologists studied a doomsday cult whose leader had predicted the end of the world. When the predicted date passed and the world didn't end, people did not leave the cult. Instead, they found reasons to explain it away (God was so impressed with their devotion that he put off the apocalypse on their behalf). The end result was that their beliefs were strengthened, not weakened, by disconfirmatory evidence.

      (As a sidenote, the study was an important early test of Leon Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance; Festinger had predicted the cult's response based on his theory.)

    11. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Aren't all those "you can't eat this or that" rules abolished in the New Testament? I like to think of it as a slightly newer release candidate.
    12. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by gillbates · · Score: 1

      As one who has had to endure the suffering of a polyester-cotton blend, I, for one, think Moses got that one right the first time. We'd all be much better off without polyester (well, except maybe baseball players, with apologies to George Costanza...)

      But in all seriousness, there are some very good theological reasons why the civil parts of Mosaic law were discarded while the moral parts remained in force. It has to do with the coming of what had been promised by Moses, the fulfillment of prophecy, and the establishment of a New Covenant. Hopefully, I've given you enough to research for yourself, but this shift was not merely an arbitrary change in religion, but rather, the expected outcome. Even the Jews, who do not accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, still await the coming Messiah. So while the continued condemnation of homosexuality without the attendant adherence to the civil law of the Torah may appear completely arbitrary, it was the side effect of a long awaited event promised by scripture.

      As for religion getting it wrong, I was referring to the various dead religions, such as the Greco-Roman gods, and to the various cults which spring up from time to time, only to splinter off and die later when people wake up and realize the truth.

      --
      The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    13. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      For example, there is no real prohibition against abortion in the Christian Bible.
      There is also no real prohibition against shooting people in the Christian Bible.

      For another example, the selective interpretation of Leviticus as condemnation of homosexuality while ignoring the condemnation of poly-cotton blends and Red Lobster.
      Far be it from me to interrupt your game of "Bash the Fundies", but...

      The "condemnations" of homosexuality on the one hand and shrimp on the other are not the same, using entirely different words. (Just because the 400 year-old language in the KJV uses the word "abomination" in both passages, doesn't mean the Hebrew is the same.)

      That raises the question, why do you make the peculiar assumption that every command in the OT law is of the same type, for the same kind of reason? Do you allow no distinction between ceremonial rules, and rules involving inherent moral/ethical concerns? Do you think that ancient Hebrews viewed dietary laws (prohibition of shrimp) and the command about mixed fabric as moral issues, in the same sense as murder, adultery, theft, and injustice? If so, why? If not, why base your arguments on absurd equivocation?
    14. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by jgoemat · · Score: 1

      Religion reveals the truth of divine revelation. Which means that it is true by axiom, not proof. If the "revealed truth" isn't actually true, then it isn't of divine origin. Which does much to explain why religious institutions are very conservative when it comes to accepting new ideas.

      You cannot be talking about organized religion then. The only religious people then would be ones that have had divine revelations and the only religion would be based on those personal revelations. I haven't seen any burning bushes lately, have you? If you go off of divine revelations made to other people, then you have to look at their accounts, which means the bible for the most part, or people saying that God talks to them (i.e. David Koresh, Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell and Oral Robers, who had a "divine revelation" that God wanted people to send him $8 million or God would smite him).

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely.

      When Martin Luther thought that the Catholic church had it wrong, he changed Christianity completely. He believed that the only true word was the bible, which is ironic because it was the Catholic church that chose the four stories to make up the new testament out of the sixteen or so there were. When attitudes changed, even the Lutheran church denounced his hateful writings about Jews. If you look at the old testament then the Jews are the chosen people of God, how could you even denigrate them without raising God's ire? At least he broke away from the polytheism of the Catholic church with it's three main "gods" (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) and the fourteen holy helpers. If you're Catholic and wish a safe trip, you pray to the God of Travelling, "Saint" Christopher. There's also their goddess Mary, who Pope John Paul II credited with guiding the bullet that hit him so that it would not kill him (I wonder why she wouldn't make it miss altogether?)

      When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely. When science doesn't get it right, they say, "well, that's just part of the process..."

      The difference is that science gives you a way to tell if something is true. Religious has someone telling you something or reading a 2,000 year old book written by people that are long dead and that contradicts itself in many places and says to assume that it is all true and go from there. If you go by that, then the Earth is 6,000 years old. We can count tree rings back to 13,000 years (rings from generations can be aligned by changes in size and gaps for instance). We know that light has a speed limit and that the theories of General and Special relativity fit all observable data (GPS wouldn't work if it didn't account for differing gravity at 22,000 miles up and the gravity of the Sun has been shown to warp the path of light from distant stars). You can prove the speed of light yourself by observing IO and Jupiter or by shining a laser on a mirror astronauts placed on the moon and seeing that it takes 2.5 seconds to get back. We also can calculate that the Andromeda Galaxy is 2.5 million light-years away. That means that the light we're seeing now left the galaxy 2.5 million years ago. Ergo the universe must be older than 6,000 years and anyone that truly believes that is simply incapable of understanding basic scientific concepts. Religion has therefore changed instead of being abandoned, as recent popes' concessions that evolution is not incompatible with religion and Pope Gregory XIII in 1580 saying that the earth was created in 5199 BCE. So religion must change in light of newly discovered facts to avoid having its followers choose between leaving or looking like an idiot.

    15. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, first of all, I'm only posting as Anonymous Coward here because I've gotta leave the office and don't have time to register.

      As probably one of the only ordained clergy people who reads Slashdot, I have to say that a bit of humility is called for in these "science vs. religion" conversations. I don't go weigh in much on genetics or string theory because I haven't studied them sufficiently to have an informed understanding. Well, religion is a major field of human endeavor, with thousands of years of history behind it and a staggering variety of forms. So sweeping generalizations about "religion" in general (Buddhism? Reform Judaism? Pentecostal Christianity?) tend to fail as most sweeping generalizations about complex phenomena tend to fail.

      Two important points:

      Not all religious people are textual fundamentalists/literalists.

      When religion encounters new circumstances and new truths, it often finds ways to incorporate those truths and perspectives into its world view.

      "We must accept the truth whatever its source."

      Now, who said that....

      Oh, yeah, it was Rabbi Moses Maimonides in the 12th century.

      By the way, Darwin got the phrase Tree Of Life from the Bible. :-)

      Over and out,

      fstab

    16. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Those that can, anyway. Christians have shown a remarkable flexibility in interpreting the Bible, mostly because it's second hand stories and a collection of various books that there's not even an universal agreement on. Plus that most of the Bible is stories and allegories that have some sort of moral in them, but still leaves quite a bit to interpretation. So as long as we just capture the main values, most people are willing to call it Christianity.

      The Quran on the other hand exists in one definitive version. It is supposed to contain the final divine revelation from Allah to mankind delivered through Muhammad and so is the direct word of Allah. It contains a lot of religious duties that are pretty much unequivocal and integral to the religion. You can do almost nothing and people will still accept you as Christian. Try almost never praying towards Mecca and say you're muslim, and noone will accept you.

      Since I think religion is an invisible friend for adult, I'm quite happy that christianity can be bent so far out of shape you can mistake it for secular humanitarianism. I've yet to experience the same with islam...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    17. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by jwthompson2 · · Score: 1

      Yes. The dietary laws are explicitly abolished in the vision given to Peter in Acts 10:9-16. Some have interpreted this in other ways as well but it is the basis for the lifting of the dietary laws along with much of Paul's writings concerning the freedom found in Christ as opposed to the bondage and curse found in the Law.

      --
      Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
    18. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

      The "condemnations" of homosexuality on the one hand and shrimp on the other are not the same, using entirely different words. (Just because the 400 year-old language in the KJV uses the word "abomination" in both passages, doesn't mean the Hebrew is the same.)

      What a great example of what the GP was talking about. You have to read those VERY creatively for there to be any difference.

    19. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by NIckGorton · · Score: 1

      Do you allow no distinction between ceremonial rules, and rules involving inherent moral/ethical concerns? Oh, you mean like slavery? Lev. 25:44 says its quite hunky-dory as long as they are from neighboring states. Like say for those of us in the USA... Canada.

      Do you think that ancient Hebrews viewed dietary laws (prohibition of shrimp) and the command about mixed fabric as moral issues, in the same sense as murder, adultery, theft, and injustice? Quite likely they viewed them differently. But then I also think the issue of the morality of slavery is in the category of injustice rather than fashion and food sense.

      If so, why? If not, why base your arguments on absurd equivocation? Its only absurd equivocation if you are unfamiliar with the OT. I'm not, but apparently you are. Why not go have a read and they we can talk a bit more, k?

      Of course you could make that claim of absurd equivocation if you accepted as a premise that slavery was not necessarily immoral, but rather simply unfashionable? Though I am guessing you don't want to go there, huh?
    20. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Well, unless you are someone who strictly interprets the OT". Umm, its called "judaism". Shrimp is very very much non-kosher.

    21. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Religion reveals the truth of divine revelation. Which means that it is true by axiom, not proof. This is a fancy way of saying "True because we say it is.".

      Or, what another person would call "Not true at all.".
    22. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is also no real prohibition against shooting people in the Christian Bible."

      So that thing about murder isn't in the commandments then? Good Fuckin Deal!

    23. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by mfnickster · · Score: 1

      > For example, there is no real prohibition against abortion in the Christian Bible.

      Yeah, well, nevertheless, I'm PRO-KARYOTE and I VOTE!

      --
      "Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
    24. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by MorePower · · Score: 4, Insightful
      That raises the question, why do you make the peculiar assumption that every command in the OT law is of the same type, for the same kind of reason?

      Because the basic evangelical argument is that "morality" is based solely on "whatever God said, and humans dare not even try to ask why". If you allow for humans to have some capacity for independent moral awareness, then you would have what us heathen non-believers have been calling for all along, using our own sensibilities to decide what is and isn't acceptable.

      I mean, how else do you condemn homosexuality or pre-marital sex? It's two consenting adults enjoying each other's bodies in mutually pleasing ways without harming others. But the evangelical crowd says "God said 'No', end of discussion."

    25. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He didn't even say they were the same. The fact remains that these are commands of the Old Testament, and people choose which ones to follow based on.. well, you tell me. I'm not going to put words in your mouth here, but are you saying that the commands of God can be ignored because they're just "dietary laws"? I would think that all would have to be obeyed because regardless of whether they refer to shellfish or male-male intercourse, they all still fall under the umbrella of "commands from God." Furthermore, if we're allowing distinctions between ceremonial rules and rules involving inherent moral/ethical concerns, who is sorting which into which category? Is it you? You appear to use on one hand, shrimp as an example of a ceremonial rule, contrasting it with murder, which is inherently amoral/unethical. But homosexuality? Are you saying that that is inherently amoral/unethical? If so, why? If not, why can't we just let shrimp-eaters and gays alone?

    26. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      There is also no real prohibition against shooting people in the Christian Bible.

      Really? Dang, I could of sworn I saw something related to this question in the reader's digest version of The Book (in its "10 commandements" chapter)...

      On a positive note, here's finally a constructive way to deal with ma mother-in-law. Who'd of thunk? Thank you very many dear respected sir, I'm off to do some shooting for me.

    27. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      One way to classify Science, mathmatics and religion is by how "truth" can be changed. Mathmatical truth is proved ad once proved (corectly) can never change. In science "truth" is alway subject to change as new data is collected and interpeted. With religion, I can simply decide to become Buddhist tomorrow then get bored and join some New Age group. So with religion "Truth" whatever you currently choose to believe.

      But I do agree 100% that each of Science, mathematics and religion address a different non-overlapping area. If you see conflict it is because people forget this.

    28. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So at some point in historical time, you *honestly* believe your god floated around (or however you rationalize it) punishing people for eating shrimp? Isn't your god immutable? Oh my, you're smarter than this! YOU wake up and realize the truth, life is BEAUTIFUL without a need for gods!

    29. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by syousef · · Score: 1

      I wish there was a way to mod your comment above +5

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    30. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But being right the first time is the glory of religion.

      No, pretending to be right the first time and then backpedaling for thousands of years as the divine revelations are increasingly demonstrated to be absurd is the glory of religion.

      Religion reveals the truth of divine revelation. Which means that it is true by axiom, not proof. If the "revealed truth" isn't actually true, then it isn't of divine origin.

      I can agree with the axiom part, but are all the mutually-conflicting divine revelations of the millions of religions around the world all actually true, or only the ones of your personal religion?

    31. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by camperdave · · Score: 1

      No, you don't have to read creatively. Under the old covenant both were condemned. Under the new covenant, homosexuality is condemned, but the concept of clean and unclean foods has been eliminated. See Rom 1:26-32 and Matt 15:10

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    32. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What a great example of what the GP was talking about. You have to read those VERY creatively for there to be any difference.
      What are you talking about? Homosexuality is said to be "tow`ebah". Elsewhere, in a list of dietary laws, certain foods (like shrimp) are said to be "sheqets".

      So, on what basis are you deciding that we have to read them "creatively" for them to be different? What do the two words mean? What's their usage?

      The distinction could be effectively meaningless (if the words are equivalent & interchangeable), or it could make a world of difference (for instance, if the latter is used primarily or exclusively in contexts of ceremonial "uncleanness").

      The problem is, everyone jumping on the Bash the Fundie wagon--yourself included, apparently--doesn't care about discerning what the Hebrew Scriptures--the Torah, the Mosaic Law--actually mean. You have your easy excuses for dismissing, demonizing, or denigrating Christians. You don't have to know whether your criticisms have actual merit before leveling them; you don't have to know if your simplistic, at-first-glance readings will bear up to the facts. Since you're a "skeptic", the facts are obviously going to be on your side--you don't have to actually check them.
    33. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by jericho4.0 · · Score: 1

      What's a Christian doing calling on "facts"?

      --
      "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
    34. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by localman · · Score: 1

      Aren't all those "you can't eat this or that" rules abolished in the New Testament?

      Well that's the thing -- the New Testament is not clear on which laws are abolished, modified, or left the same. Thus people tend to pick and choose their depending on their personal opinion and circumstance. If they commit a sin, they'll talk of the grace of God in the New Testament. If they see someone else commit a sin that they especially don't like, they'll talk of the wrath of God in the Old Testament. It's really a perfect system for fitting the religion into your own worldview. I think this duality is largely responsible for the immense success of Christianity.

      Cheers.

    35. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Religion doesn't reveal the truth of divine revelation. Religion tells you to shut up and do as you're told, just like any other government obsessed with power. Unlike secular governments however, they have the added advantage of being able to torture your immortal soul for all of time. Once they've murdered your corporeal container.

    36. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by godless+dave · · Score: 1
      Fixed this for you:

      When religion doesn't get it right, people cling to it for millenia.
      --
      "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." -
    37. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by sriunpredictable · · Score: 1

      Display of religious sentiment/knowledge OR proof of concept - is NOT what a REAL religious person strives for. It is the INNER REALIZATION of the TRUTH that makes him a believer! He does NOT have to PROVE anything! Proving something is a function of human EGO- and once you know enough Truth- you part with the ego !!

      Religion also is scientific- people do not understand it. The only difference is that proof is sought Within Oneself. And once the feeling of the TRUTH is strong enough- you to start believing!! This is how the Man device created by God works!!

      Most of us are dumb followers- who repeat the words of enlightened believers- just to prove that they are also the gifted lot!! And these are the ones who end up by unknowingly uncovering their ignorance or total absence of any understanding about religion by trying to PROVE it!!

      The Material world, gadgets and devices are not even a millionth capable of FEELING or MEASURING subtle existances. Some examples are God, telepathy, hypnotism, miracle recoveries, effect of alternative medicine like yoga, ayurved, chinese medicine, granny's home made remedies, Tai Chi, Faith healing, Sleep, aura, how dogs and donkeys sense a natural calamity coming and react to it, etc etc etc etc.

      Why not - we should start a new discussion/thread on things we see in our daily life- without proving them ??

    38. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More likely, he knew that shrimp spoiled easily, so He warned people not to eat them... The preparation of foods 3,000 years ago was considerably less sanitary than it is today, and these conditions necessarily limited the variety of food that one could eat.

    39. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by gardyloo · · Score: 1
    40. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by sriunpredictable · · Score: 1

      Your reply was a good endorsement of my post.
      It shows that your logic is atleast UnBiased, or atleast I hope so!!

      This simply shows that:
      1. Humans have a tendancy to be "Possessive" about their faith and start trying to prove something that cannot be proved with words, material or logic generated in the human mind. Human mind is yet another part of creation done by the One Creator- who we know by different names!! Thus the human mind is INcapable of "calculating"/"applying logic to" understanding the Creator. The only door is PURE faith and nothing else.

      2. Example- Love and Hate are also relative to human mind- which is not perfect.
      You Love and Hate the same person at different times- which proves human logic as -imperfect and NOT ultimate!!
      Hope and faith is the only remedy that saves your day!!

    41. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this duality is largely responsible for the immense success of Christianity.
      What an amazing coincidence! I think that that duality is largely responsible for the immense failure of Christianity

      (Disclaimer: I'm christian, just not happy about the rest of them :P)
    42. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 1

      Sorry, did I blow one of your prejudice gaskets? :)

    43. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Your reply was a good endorsement of my post.
      It shows that your logic is atleast UnBiased, or atleast I hope so!! Damn. And here I was trying to show how ridiculous it is. Well, maybe next week.
    44. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

      So, on what basis are you deciding that we have to read them "creatively" for them to be different? What do the two words mean? What's their usage?

      They both mean bad. That is probably why every translation in the last 1000 years have used interchangeable words.

    45. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 1

      Right. Because translation is a one-to-one process, right? Other languages never express distinctions that English words ignore.

      Brilliant.

    46. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "The Catholic church that chose the four stories to make up the new testament out of the sixteen or so there were"

      There were actually something like 200 gospels, a large number of which have disappeared, although I would hesitate to say that this is a permanent state of affairs, because some of them turn up in unexpected places now and then (albeit often in the form of fragments from which key parts are missing). Note also that various New Testament apocrypha, despite not having the same deuterocanonical status as some old testament apocrypha, have influenced the beliefs of many Catholics, and indeed non-Catholic Christians (e.g. the idea that three kings with specific names brought gifts, when neither the official cannon gospels or the Church say how many there were, or that they were kings, or give any of them names).

      "Religious has someone telling you something or reading a 2,000 year old book written by people that are long dead and that contradicts itself in many places and says to assume that it is all true and go from there."

      Only a small minority of Christians are fundamentalists who take everything in the Bible literally, and most of them seem to live in the US. Ranged against them are Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Quakers, and bunch of others who accept the general scientific consensus about the age of the universe and the Earth, evolution, and are in many cases just as concerned and disturbed as atheists about attempts to get Creationism taught in school science classes. If you doubt that this is so, then check out this link, which is the official position of Presbyterians on what's currently going on: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/voices/RELIGIOU/PRES82.htm

      "Religion has therefore changed instead of being abandoned, as recent popes' concessions that evolution is not incompatible with religion and Pope Gregory XIII in 1580 saying that the earth was created in 5199 BCE."

      It wasn't an unreasonable thing to say in 1580, when much of what passed for "science" was silly balderdash that made some of the things religios believed look like the last word in rationalism.

      "So religion must change in light of newly discovered facts to avoid having its followers choose between leaving or looking like an idiot."

      Two observations:

      1) Religious fundamentalism has experienced massive growth in the US during the 20th and early 21st centuries. This is also the period when the US moved from being a technological, political, and economic also-ran to a world superpower in all of these areas, largely as a result of its scientific and technological excellence.

      2) Bishops wouldn't walk around in funny hats and dresses if religious people really cared whether others thought they looked like idiots.

      NB: before you make any unwarranted assumptions about me, I am an agnostic, not a Christian.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    47. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Do you really believe that any of those 'fundies' have ever even bothered to read the original hebrew? The god hates shrimp people are completely right in criticizing them because as far as most all of these 'fundies' know, the prohibitions are equivalent.

    48. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      Or no, depending on what you mean by "fundie".

      From what I know of its original, historical definition, I might be a fundamentalist. (It comes from a document call "The Fundamentals", discussing various theological positions and views of what the Bible is. I haven't actually read it, so I don't know to what extent I might disagree with elements of it, but from what I do know, I generally agree.)

      The original movement did have an element of social isolationism--a "bunker-down" mentality. That connotation has pretty much taken over the term entirely, so that it now denotes a closed-minded, uneducated approach. I've had to interact with that kind of person, and it's very frustrating. (Particularly when that kind of person is a proud "skeptic" or atheist.) By that definition, no, I'm sure fundies don't bother to read Hebrew. But in that case, you're pretty much defining "fundamentalist" as an anti-intellectual. It gets a bit circular.

      Are you asking whether theologically conservative, evangelical, Biblical inerrantists bother to read the original languages?

      If so...My goodness, of course yes! If you have to ask that, it suggests to me that you're very unfamiliar with that segment of Western culture--going from caricature, however well-intentioned you may be. I would be shocked to hear of a conservative seminary that left out coursework in the original languages. Being able to exegete from the Greek is like...major cool points. The best pastors are those steeped in the languages.

    49. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      I don't think you can establish that religion "gets it right" or not in the same sense as science. Whether religion "gets it right" mostly seems to involve whether or not people find it compelling: but there isn't any body of evidence against which we can judge, for instance, the truth (or even the intelligibility) of the Trinity. And there's hordes and hordes of evidence that believers, when confronted with disconfirming facts on things that can be tested, will actually strengthen their faith rather than causing them to discard it. In short: science and mathematics both provide a method for error-checking. Religion doesn't seem to have any such consistent method or even ethic. Literally anything goes when it comes to justifying a belief or asserting that it's true. Many apologists think that's a strength (look, we can explain away any objection!) but it's actually a huge weakness.

      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
    50. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by BadIdea · · Score: 1

      To Jews, pretty much most of Christian interpretation of their Scriptures is considered exactly what you are accusing the parent of.

      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
    51. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 1

      To Jews, pretty much most of Christian interpretation of their Scriptures is considered exactly what you are accusing the parent of.
      Uh...I'm not sure you mean that, exactly.

      I was accusing the grandparent of not trying. It looked to me like his extremely confident opinions were based on only a passing familiarity with the issues involved. If he just disagreed with me, I wouldn't have accused--I don't lose respect for people just because they reach different conclusions.

      I doubt that's what you were saying about Jewish opinions of Christian interpretation. I suspect you were saying that Jews think Christian interpretation of their[1] Scriptures is childish and wrong. Sure.

      And to that, I would say...So what? All it means is, "Someone out there disagrees with you." That tells us nothing about who's right.



      [1] It's so odd when people say that modern-day Jews have more claim to the Old Testament than Christians. They trace their lineage back to the Jews of the Roman Empire and beyond...and so do we. Saying the OT belongs to "the Jews" over against Christians seems no different than saying it belongs to one modern sect of Judaism over against another.
    52. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by jafac · · Score: 1

      This duality is responsible for both the great success AND great failure of Christianity.

      But basically all of the Abrahamic religions suffer from this. Either that, or Pi = 3.0.
      The scriptural inerrancists are making a lot of money, and a lot of wars out of their faith in infallible scripture - but in fact, it's really just idol-worship; attributing divine properties to, LITERALLY, a graven-image.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    53. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by BadIdea · · Score: 1
      I think for most observant Jews, the interpretations of early Christians on looked just as woefully uninformed and ignorant of Scripture as what you're suggesting. That's partly why Christianity failed to catch on amongst literate Jews and ended up finding its audience primarily amongst Gentiles who couldn't even read the Scriptures in their original form.

      Saying the OT belongs to "the Jews" over against Christians seems no different than saying it belongs to one modern sect of Judaism over against another.
      Given how radical the Christian re-interpretation of Scripture is, and given that it very quickly became primarily a movement of non-Jews, I think it's a pretty fair distinction to make.
      --
      The Bad Idea Blog - Science, Skepticism, & Stupid
    54. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by jgoemat · · Score: 1

      Only a small minority of Christians are fundamentalists who take everything in the Bible literally, and most of them seem to live in the US.

      It wasn't an unreasonable thing to say in 1580, when much of what passed for "science" was silly balderdash that made some of the things religios believed look like the last word in rationalism.

      Those are really my points. I wasn't speaking out against religion, just responding to the parent's argument that "When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely." Obviously religion has changed over the centuries when it has gotten things wrong or even just as attitudes change in society.

    55. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Are you asking whether theologically conservative, evangelical, Biblical inerrantists bother to read the original languages? Are you saying that theologically conservative, evangelical, Biblical inerrantists make public protests with signs that says things like, "God Hates foo?"

      No?

      Then I think you perfectly understood the context of the question and just felt like jousting at windmills out of conceit.
    56. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "Those are really my points. I wasn't speaking out against religion, just responding to the parent's argument that "When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely." Obviously religion has changed over the centuries when it has gotten things wrong or even just as attitudes change in society."

      And many religions or sects of religions have been pretty easy-going from the beginning, leaving the decision of whether to follow their beliefs to each individual rather than trying to force everyone to conform. Buddhists, Quakers, and various types of Sufi Muslims come to mind here, but they're far from being unique in this respect.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    57. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 1

      Hmm.

      We do have independent moral awareness, apart from verbal commands from God. I'm not sure where you got the idea that evangelicals deny it. On that contrary, it's part of an argument Paul makes in Romans 2, where he talks about how Gentiles (who did not have the commands of God) instinctively or by nature knew things from the Law--in Paul's terms, we have the work of the law written on our hearts. (This doesn't mean we have no need for verbal commands. People also do nasty things like suppressing our conscience.)

      Nothing you said answered my question: Why make the peculiar assumption that every command in the OT law is of the same type, for the same kind of reason?

      Yes, I think that if God tells us to do something, it's wrong to disobey. That's irrelevant to my question.

      Example: God told Abraham to leave the country in which he lived, and move somewhere else. It would have been wrong for Abraham to disobey, yes. (That's the "God commanded it, and he has the right to command us" element you're talking about.) But it would be absurd to infer from the command that it's inherently wrong to live in that country.

      The Mosaic Law has a whole bunch of commands. It includes commands about what to do with the temple and a sacrificial system; it includes civil laws. Some of it involved moral principles that people already knew about--"Thou shalt not murder" was not new information. Some of it involved new ceremonial rules, and kosher laws, and the like.

      Yes, after it was commanded, it would be wrong to disobey. That doesn't mean every command was based on a moral principle, any more than God's command to Abraham was based in morality.

      As for a brief answer to the pre-marital sex question: If you're asking "How do we know it's wrong?", then yes, the answer might simply be "God let us know." (Though I'm not convinced it's not part of our instinctive moral awareness.) If you're asking, "Why is it wrong?", then I think the answer is wrapped up in the marriage covenant. Sex, marriage, & procreation were created as part of one whole. And sex is more than "enjoying each other's bodies in mutually pleasing ways"; it's being made "one flesh", which has a significance that is not going to make sense to you if you reject the existence of God and the biblical worldview. I don't expect this answer to be compelling to you, apart from that worldview. If I were an atheist, my view of sexual morality would be quite different.

    58. Re:Three levels of truth (maybe more...) by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that theologically conservative, evangelical, Biblical inerrantists make public protests with signs that says things like, "God Hates foo?"

      No?

      Then I think you perfectly understood the context of the question and just felt like jousting at windmills out of conceit.
      Hmm... Sorry.

      In the context of "the people who write the signs", you're absolutely right. And that was the original context. I should have kept that in mind when writing my responses.

      The problem is, I'm used to people using the term "fundie" as a broad brush for evangelicals--especially, anyone who does believe that homosexual sex is a sin. And people were doing that in this very thread, as in this post. For those two reasons, I forgot the original context when I replied to your comment. It wasn't intentional, it wasn't arguing for the fun of it or arguing from conceit. I honestly thought you were broad-brushing. But the problem was on my end, not in the way you spoke.
  14. Correction: "Tree of Life" is an old expression by popo · · Score: 1

    Saying that the "Tree of Life" was first used by Darwin to describe evolutionary relationships should be taken with a grain of salt. The use of a "tree" to describe decendants and family relationships dates back to (at the very least) pre-Roman times. Paintings depicting lineage were long adorned with leaves and fruit. There is a reason that the Bible used a "tree" to signify life -- because the symbolism of a trunk, limbs, shoots and offshoots was well established by mankind long before the Bible was even written. Norse mythology also used the concept of a "Tree of Life" to describe the relationships of one generation to the next: The Gods at the trunk, the more recently 'evolved' mankind at the branch tips. (And the Runes at the roots).

    I'm a big fan of Darwin. But let's not give him credit for applying some of mankind's oldest and most widely used symbols to the very thing it typically symbolized.

    --
    ------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
  15. So, what you are saying is..... by StressGuy · · Score: 1

    Your "tree of life" has inter-connecting branches?

    That sounds a little....incestuous....no?

    --
    A goal is a dream with a deadline
    1. Re:So, what you are saying is..... by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's a small part of most organisms' genomes that are made up of ERVs. These are insertions of retroviral DNA into our genomes. For the most part, these viral sequences are in neutral or junk genome stretches, so they don't have any influence on the organism. Unlike what the poster is saying, these don't make producing the tree more difficult, but in fact are extremely useful in fine-tuning the tree.

      The odd-man out here are some prokaryotes, such as bacteria, where a sort of pseudo-sexual reproduction can take place by direct genome transfers. Still, this does not stop the classification of bacteria, but it does probably mean that the root of the tree of life, those earliest primitive self-replicators, probably swapped genes a helluva lot, so there may be no common ancestor per se, but rather a nest of common ancestors who swapped chunks of their DNA, RNA or whatever the earliest genetic molecules were.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:So, what you are saying is..... by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Informative

      For the most part, these viral sequences are in neutral or junk genome stretches, so they don't have any influence on the organism.

      I saw an interesting article on speculation that placental mammals may have "learned" how to share fluids between fetus and mother by borrowing immune-suppression genes from a virus that used such tricks to escape the immune system.

      Unlike what the poster is saying, these don't make producing the tree more difficult

      Only in newer and complex species does a fairly clear tree path appear. However, for simpler organisms and perhaps further back in time, cross-gene transfer seems to be more common such that tree-ness may get really murky. Bacteria, for example, create plasmids whose sole purpose appears to be to share genes with other strains.

    3. Re:So, what you are saying is..... by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      ...[I]t does probably mean that the root of the tree of life, those earliest primitive self-replicators, probably swapped genes a helluva lot, so there may be no common ancestor per se, but rather a nest of common ancestors who swapped chunks of their DNA, RNA or whatever the earliest genetic molecules were.

      If I may be so bold, allow me to dub them "bonoboans".

      -l

      --
      Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
  16. But the circle of life... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Funny
    ...stays the same:
    • Born, Live, Read /., Die
    Non-geeks, substitute "Read /." with "Move Out" and "Have Sex".
    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:But the circle of life... by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Born, Live, Read /., Die

      This isn't a circle; it's a straight line... well, a line segment.

      Non-geeks, substitute "Read /." with "Move Out" and "Have Sex".

      With the disintegration of the nuclear family, the 'circle' of life is now more pretzel-shaped.

  17. Just hoopla over definitions by chrisjbuck · · Score: 2, Informative

    I never heard of "PLoS ONE", it claims to be a peer reviewed journal at least. If this was ground breaking I'd expect it to be published in Nature though. The "PLoS ONE" website isn't loading for me at the moment, but hopefully I'll be able to read the actual article. This seems to be hoopla over definitions though, we can sort organisms into kingdoms and phyla any way we like, this seems identical to the tug-of-war over whether Pluto is a planet or a planetoid. Is it the size of the planet? Is it if an organism has x+2 mutations in a histone protein/gene it gets slotted into one kingdom or another?

    Hey the journal finally loaded, here is a link to the actual paper: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0000790, although its taking a long time to load for me, and it's not even slashdotted yet. :P

    1. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Angostura · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's a bit more than that. The question of whether Pluto belongs to the class 'Planet' is basically decide by one metric only: size. A phylogenomic study is rather more interesting than that since it casts light on the actual intrinsic interrelationships between different organisms and their likely evolution paths.

      I've had a quick look at the paper you linked to, and frankly its over my head. My degree was genetics/molecular biology but that was 20 years ago and taxonomy used to bore me rigid.

    2. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Seiruu · · Score: 3, Informative

      [quote]I never heard of "PLoS ONE"[/quote]

      Then you have also never heard of Open Access, because then you would certainly know what PLoS ONE is. A shame you've never heard of it, because it is a very significant and rapidly growing movement within the scientific community. It puts the emphasis on opening up the access of scientific literature to everyone by switching from reader-pays to author-pays models. And with that said, it is very likely that scholars select PLoS ONE or other OA journals (peer reviewed of course) to show that they believe in the Open Access concept and let everyone with a digital connection have access to it.

    3. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by chrisjbuck · · Score: 1

      I've heard of Open Access, but it hasn't exactly taken off yet. I look for papers on Pubmed quite often and almost every serious paper is in a pay-to-access journal. Fortunately there are site licenses for accessing these online, and if you really have to read something most big journals are at the local university libraries. Archived on paper!

      I agree all government funded research should be freely accessable, and the "big journals" (Nature, Science, Biochemistry, JBC) could probably still sell subscriptions with additional editorial content, pretty pictures etc. It is up to individuals where they publish, so there is a lot of inertia to overcome as people publish where there field has always published. Being in the proteomics field currently there is a short list of journals we would like to publish in, and nothing open access has climbed onto the radar, but scientific communities will undoubtedly manage to increase some journals such as this to higher status. If it doesn't remain too fragmented into lots of small e-journals little better than science blogs for articles rejected elsewhere.

    4. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      PLoS ONE is indeed a peer-reviewed journal, and although it's not in the same tier as Nature, it's certainly a respectable publication. Not all major research is published in the Big Two, Nature and Science, you know; there simply isn't room.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    5. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      I've heard of Open Access, but it hasn't exactly taken off yet. I look for papers on Pubmed quite often and almost every serious paper is in a pay-to-access journal.

      This is simply not true. Really. The PLoS and BMC journals, in particular, are publishing just as much important research -- and, equally importantly, getting their articles cited just as much -- as traditional journals are. Nature and Science still tower over everybody else, of course, but below that level, open access publication is every bit as "serious" as traditional journal publication.

      This varies by field, of course, and it may well be that no open access journals have made the "short list" in proteomics yet. In genomics, though, which is the subject of the story, I can guarantee you that many open access journals are quite prestigious.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    6. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Seiruu · · Score: 1

      I've heard of Open Access, but it hasn't exactly taken off yet. Well, Green Open Access (self-archiving in (institutional) repositories and making them OA) has gone a long way even in the last few years, thankfully.

      2007: The European Research Council (ERC) requires that all peer-reviewed publications from ERC-funded research projects be deposited on publication into an appropriate research repository where available, such as PubMed Central, ArXiv or an institutional repository, and subsequently made Open Access within 6 months of publication

      In 2005, many major research funders, including the Wellcome Trust, National Institutes for Health (NIH), and the Research Councils UK (RCUK), set out their position in a number of statements. Of particular note was the stipulation that authors receiving grants must deposit their final manuscript in an open access forum within 6-12 months of publication. NIH and the Wellcome Trust have been joined by many of the world's major funders in biomedical research [Glover et al., 2006].

      President Bush has signed into law the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2007 (H.R. 2764), which includes a provision directing the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to provide the public with open online access to findings from its funded research. This is the first time the U.S. government has mandated public access to research funded by a major agency.

      The provision directs the NIH to change its existing Public Access Policy, implemented as a voluntary measure in 2005, so that participation is required for agency-funded investigators. Researchers will now be required to deposit electronic copies of their peer-reviewed manuscripts into the National Library of Medicine's online archive, PubMed Central. Full texts of the articles will be publicly available and searchable online in PubMed Central no later than 12 months after publication in a journal. But certainly the road to full Open Access journals (Gold Open Access) still requires time and work. But it's hopefully only a matter of time.

      I agree all government funded research should be freely accessable, and the "big journals" (Nature, Science, Biochemistry, JBC) could probably still sell subscriptions with additional editorial content, pretty pictures etc. They still would get paid for peer reviews and stuff (third party, fair system so nothing has to change there), it's just that their revenues will go down in favor of universities and whoever was paying them for content.

      If it doesn't remain too fragmented into lots of small e-journals little better than science blogs for articles rejected elsewhere. Hehe, well there's that danger. But then again, authors and/or their institutions are paying for this out of their own pockets, so the rules that go "pick the best viewed journal" are still very much valid. In fact, when it's free, there is even a bigger emphasis on picking the best journals, since there's so much content out there, making quality filters by journals that much more important, if the journals want to have viewers. As journals are making costs just like commercial journals, if they can't get/publish quality content even they too have to shut down. Which will automatically weed out the "lesser" OA journals in the end.
    7. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by FleaPlus · · Score: 2, Informative
      PLoS ONE is indeed a peer-reviewed journal

      Mm... not exactly. Perhaps you're thinking of PLoS Biology? Articles submitted to PLoS ONE undergo some very cursory peer review, but in a sense it's undergoing it's primary peer review -now-, with the article out in the open and readers commenting on it. From a news item in Nature:

      http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v445/n7123/full/445009a.html

      Every paper submitted to the journal is reviewed by at least one member of PLoS One's editorial board of over 200 researchers, but only to check for serious flaws in the way the experiment was conducted and analysed. In contrast to almost all other journals, referees ignore the significance of the result. Notable papers will instead be highlighted by the attention they attract after publication.

      Visitors to the PLoS One website can, for example, attach comments to specific parts of a paper and rate the paper as a whole. Data from those systems, as well as download and citation statistics, will then allow PLoS One's editors to identify and promote the papers that researchers are talking about. "We're trying to make a journal where papers are not the end point, they are the start of a discussion," says PLoS One managing editor Chris Surridge, based in Cambridge, UK.
    8. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Veinor · · Score: 1

      Pluto's planethood isn't just determined by size, it's determined by four factors: whether it's large enough to be round under its own gravitational force (check), whether it's too small to be undergoing fusion (check), whether it's orbiting a star or stellar remnant (check), and whether it has cleared its neighborhood of all other bodies (wrong; it makes up only 7% of all mass in its orbit).

    9. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I never heard of "PLoS ONE", it claims to be a peer reviewed journal at least. If this was ground breaking I'd expect it to be published in Nature though.

      I'm actually surprised you haven't heard of PLoS journals.

      PLoS is an open-access publisher of science journals. Basically, the journals are free to access, and content is published under a creative-commons-type license.

      PLoS journals are excellent, and rival the best journals in their content. There is no "general" science journal like Science or Nature, but there are topical journals like PLoS Biology, PLoS Medicine, etc. I'd argue that the content in these topic journals are comparable to Nature and Science publications.

      PLoS One is a relatively experimental journal published by PLoS that attempts to push the open access model to its limits, by making the peer-review process completely open, where anyone is allowed to comment.

      If anything, the fact that this article was published in a PLoS journal raised rather than lowered my expectations regarding its quality.

    10. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 1

      Who decided Pluto was large enough to be "round" under its own gravitational force??? The most important criteria for a planet is that it was formed by the physics of planet formation that formed our solar system. Originally, Pluto was thought to be a planet because it shined so bright, scientists thought it must have megatons of mass, and therefore a planet sized heavenly body. Later on, with spectrographic analysis, scientists figured out that "no, its actually tiny, it was putting out all that reflected light because it was made of shiny frozen water (a big snowball). Throw in the fact that it is way off the accepted planetary ecliptic, and that its not even the center of mass for its orbit. (Pluto and Charon circle an empty point in space, not Charon rotates around Pluto.) It becomes pretty obvious that it probably wasn't formed by the same physics that formed the other eight planets, and that it much better matches a kuiper belt body, of which, two of them are even bigger than Pluto. Its pretty obvious at this point that Pluto is a not a planet, but a poser. I'm happy scientists chose to make classifications based on scientific theory, not historical error. Everyone else bitching about it are just rigid, memorization dorks who are afraid of change or what they thought was "fact" was in error. F**k them, they're useless to the pursuit of scientific knowledge.

      --
      There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
    11. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 2

      It used to be a planet, so it should stay one. Raising its hopes then taking it all away like that is just plain mean. You wouldn't like it if they did that to you.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    12. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by argiedot · · Score: 1

      Indeed, I agree. Changing its status just broke backwards compatibility with all those old textbooks.

    13. Re:Just hoopla over definitions by frankie · · Score: 1

      It used to be a planet, so it should stay one

      Damn straight, I completely agree! It's about time that Vesta, Pallas, and Juno get reinstated to the family of PLANETS, just like they were when they were discovered! Who cares that hundreds of other objects were discovered sharing their orbital region?

      Scientists should stick to the exact classifications that I learned when I was a kid, and ignore any new information that contradicts it. And yes, you *do* need to GET OFF MY LAWN!

  18. There are three lights... err, branches by trainman · · Score: 1

    Submitter was close, but not quite right, there are three kingdoms. Eukaryotes, bacteria and archaea. While archaea may look a lot like bacteria, biologists recognize this group as a distinct kingdom in the tree of life.

    Thanks for playing, please try again next time.

    1. Re:There are three lights... err, branches by joto · · Score: 1

      Ah, but those are "superkingdoms" or "domains", not "kingdoms". Not that it matters much, of course, as only convention can decide at which level we call the division of the tree of life for "kingdoms". But in this case, the convention is pretty universal.

      In any case, the article was completely bollocks. No serious researcher at this level bothers much about what should be called "kingdom" and what should not. They have more then enough with drawing up a correct picture of the early stages of the tree of life, and leave labelling the branches with "kingdom", "phylum", "class", "order", "family", "genus", (and "sub-", "super-", "infra-" etc designations of those) up to bad popularizers of science. If the article had told us which kinds of organisms we now know evolved from which other kinds of organisms, it would have told us something useful. All it told us now, was that some popularizer has moved the labels around again, which isn't that surprising, given that they are all arbitrary.

  19. The Undiscovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    They haven't tested Cheney yet, we'll be back to 5 types if Congress does its job.

    1. Re:The Undiscovered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the 5th one will be "cyborg"
      He's a terminator prototype.

  20. Smaller than a eukaryote! by lightspawn · · Score: 1
  21. Rather, you haven't been keeping up. by IdahoEv · · Score: 4, Informative

    When I was in 9th grade (I guess about 10 years ago!), there were five "kingdoms": bacteria, protista, fungi, plantae, and animalia.


    What's happened is that better information has rapidly come to the fore as genetic analysis have been done during the last 15 years. The tree has been revised several times.

    The five kingdom model was already known to be wrong 10 years ago, but that information hadn't propagated to gradeschool and highschool textbooks yet. If you'd studied biology in college, your information would be more up to date.

    These days there are three superkingdoms: Bacteria, Archaea, and Eukarya. (Bacteria and Archaea were formerly grouped together as "monera" or "bacteria" before it was realized that genetically they are as distinct from each other as they are from Eukarya.) Eukarya is broken into a number of kingdoms, and that number has just changed from 5 to 4. Even the 5 they were last year weren't exactly same ones that you learned in school.
    --
    I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
    1. Re:Rather, you haven't been keeping up. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      These days there are three superkingdoms: Bacteria, Archaea, and Eukarya. (Bacteria and Archaea were formerly grouped together as "monera" or "bacteria" before it was realized that genetically they are as distinct from each other as they are from Eukarya.) Eukarya is broken into a number of kingdoms, and that number has just changed from 5 to 4. Even the 5 they were last year weren't exactly same ones that you learned in school.

      Rather than play classification musical chairs, why not take a representative from 20 or so groups and form a table with the 20 groups as rows and the various features as columns. Features could include Nucleus, Mitocondria, Membrane Organelles, Photosynthesis, and so forth. Then a check-mark would show which features are common. This may be less susceptible to classification changes because it focuses on features instead of guesses of ancestry.

    2. Re:Rather, you haven't been keeping up. by H3six · · Score: 1

      Agreed. It would be nice to have a system of classification that is easy to remember and not changing all the time.

      --
      Uh, what do you think? Me too!
  22. A-ha! See! by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 1

    This is further proof that the Bible is the Word of God and vindicates Intelligent Design!

    --
    "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    1. Re:A-ha! See! by IHC+Navistar · · Score: 1

      True.

      I think the fact that God hasn't struck down the people who have bastardized and exploited the Bible with bolts of lightning further reinforces the argument that God doesn't like mercy killings.

      --
      Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
  23. No! by waveformwafflehouse · · Score: 4, Funny

    4 supergroups? Wait, did Journey break up? Who stopped believing!

    1. Re:No! by theNeophile · · Score: 1

      4 supergroups? Wait, did Journey break up? Who stopped believing! Toni Soprano?
    2. Re:No! by theNeophile · · Score: 1

      Or maybe even Tony.

    3. Re:No! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only a "4, Funny"? How is that not a 5? Dammit, that's the first time I've laughed out loud at something on /. in years.

      My only regret is that I wasn't drinking milk when I read it.

  24. omg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (I've studied genetics, computer science, logic and discrete math)

    You sir are the biggest fucking nerd i've ever seen.

    /me bows down and worships

  25. Oldest life forms: Whores or sluts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "those earliest primitive self-replicators, probably swapped genes a helluva lot"

    Are you saying the world's oldest profession really is the world's oldest profession, or are you just calling them sluts?

  26. Science Journalism is Neither by blair1q · · Score: 1

    What a worthless article that is.

    2,000 words, and they never listed the "Before" list. And in the text following the "After" list, they implied that there's still a group of organisms not in the list, meaning all these guys really did was move some entries between two branches.

    Worthless. Come back when (a) it's done and (b) it's written-up clearly enough that the facts can be listed in two sentences.

  27. Not a cut by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The branch was not cut, it was merged!
    Bet nature used GIT for that! :-)

  28. What chance does that give me? by Boronx · · Score: 1

    Only the true messiah would deny his divinity.

    1. Re:What chance does that give me? by andphi · · Score: 1

      So . . . from Taoism to Monty Python in one swell foop?

      This is Slashdot, after all.

  29. What now? by glwtta · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Both the summary and the article made no sense whatsoever (and I am not bored enough to read the paper), can someone clarify this for me?

    The "branches" on the "tree" of life are pretty much arbitrary, you could draw a single node called "Life" or you could draw every single individual organism that ever existed - both would be valid.

    Are they saying that they combined two groups on some taxonomic level because they are more closely related than previously thought?

    I don't know what exactly they mean by "the five groups...", but I'm pretty sure their little unreadable graphic (which, by the way, wtf?) doesn't cover all of Eukarya - is this groundbreaking research transforming one mostly unknown pet classification into another?

    Then there's this: "Previously, these species were thought to be completely unrelated."

    Unless I slept through something fairly major, all currently living organisms on Earth are still considered to have arisen from a common origin (or created by the gods in a flash of omnipotence, etc, etc.), so all species are related.

    And of course it explains that to arrive at these conclusion they have "studied" the genes - I'm sure anything more specific would make our poor little heads hurt.

    Can someone summarize what they actually did?

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  30. Ah, the Irony by TerminalOldFart · · Score: 1

    Darwin didn't come up with the phrase "Tree of Life". It was first used in the Bible in the Book of Revelations describing Heaven. That Darwin lifted the phrase amuses me to no end. I wonder if God has enforced his IP rights on that?

    1. Re:Ah, the Irony by Antibozo · · Score: 1

      Darwin didn't come up with the phrase "Tree of Life". It was first used in the Bible in the Book of Revelations describing Heaven.

      Uh, no. First, it's the book of "Revelation"; it describes a vision revealed to John. Second, the tree of life is one of the two important trees described in Genesis, in the Garden of Eden, the other being the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree of life is also a Kabbalistic construction unifying the ten Sephiroth.

    2. Re:Ah, the Irony by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      And a tree is also a useful way to illustrate hierarchically-derived entities. Maybe there's something to the metaphor, but ultimately the "tree of life" in biology is a way of illustrating Common Descent, which does form a tree-like structure.

      Talk about reading too much into something.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:Ah, the Irony by Antibozo · · Score: 1

      I fully agree. And "tree of life" is a natural way [ha ha] of describing what Darwin came up with. Just straightening the proselyte out on his own religion a bit. And TFA is thoroughly wrong in implying the turn of phrase was original on Darwin's part.

    4. Re:Ah, the Irony by godless+dave · · Score: 1
      I thought it was first used in Genesis:

      3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever
      But that's from the King James version; I don't know what the Hebrew was that was translated as "tree of life".
      --
      "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." -
    5. Re:Ah, the Irony by TerminalOldFart · · Score: 1

      You are correct, I'd forgotten about that reference. It makes the irony all the more sweeter, don't you think?

  31. Pretty good guess by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    5 instead of 4? Well that's a pretty good guess given that the previous generation of scientists did not have a lot of the tools that the new kids on the block have.

    Science is a moving target which is one of the reasonse we should never use terms like "scientifically proven" and should never get ioverconfident.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Pretty good guess by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Science is a moving target which is one of the reasonse we should never use terms like "scientifically proven" and should never get ioverconfident.

      I'm not sure "we" ever do. Every time I see that term or those like it (s/scientifically/clinically/) it's always the spew of some scumbag marketroid.
    2. Re:Pretty good guess by RockDoctor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      5 instead of 4? Well that's a pretty good guess given that the previous generation of scientists did not have a lot of the tools that the new kids on the block have.

      The previous "5 kingdoms" model is hardly the result of guesswork. I've been working through a (now-outdated) reference tome on the model on-and-off for about 4 years now, and I'm barely half way through the book (It's Margulis & Schwartz, BTW, "Five Kingdoms: Illustrated Guide to the Phyla of Life on Earth (Paperback) " ISBN 0716730278).
      Given that it's 10 years old now, I was actually expecting this to happen. In the time since I got the book (about 5 years) and started working my way through it, making notes, one of the 137 phyla which they describe has been found to be a grossly degenerated member of another phylum (it's an obscure parasite found normally only on the gills of cephalopod molluscs), another two have been merged (I can't even remember which ones they were. Protoctists of some sort.), and now someone has proposed a different way of slicing up the pie at the super-phylum level. I see that the unikont grouping still stands in this new analysis, which even I could figure out as a natural grouping.

      Trust me (or do the legwork for yourself!), the 5 kingdoms model was not guesswork. It might not be the correct model, but it's based on a lot of evidence.
      (BTW, sitting in my rucksack at this very moment I've got a reprint of one of Margulis' 1995 papers setting out some of the grounds for the 5 kingdoms model. It's my "light reading" on the bus to work, as a change from doing a correspondence course in Java. Next to it is a reference to the geological structure of the South Atlantic, which may be my work place in a couple of years. Lifelong training is a requirement, not an option.)
      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  32. fewer big ones by epine · · Score: 1

    The Tree of Life tells the story of life on Earth, and our research can say something about how quickly life developed. Our discovery suggests that there were fewer big "events" than we have previously assumed in the development of higher life forms. I really hate it when your average scientist tries to think. What we can determine (from what we know so far) of the history of life on earth is that there is a fairly large term representing a "winner take all" effect that determines how this tree is ultimately pruned. The insight this scientist was trying to express is that there are relatively few "split pots" on earth's evolutionary tree.

    I've long suspected that a few twinges of our human predilection for genocide stems from a deeply rooted evolutionary belief that we are still seated at such a table. Do unto others before they do unto you.

    Up until the Cambrian era, mother nature was doing quite the nice job of covering up her dirty work. Then she tried to hide the equatorial crime scene high atop a cliff face of a mountain range in desolate southern Alberta. She was just in the process of tuning up a rabid strain of stampeding bison to cover off the eastern approach, but then some upstart seafaring albino monkey got the notion that India lay due south of Newfoundland, and her reputation has never been quite the same since.
    1. Re:fewer big ones by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "Do unto others before they do unto you."

      Many of the things humans have done unto each other could more properly be summed up as "Do unto others before the thought of doing unto you has even occurred to them".

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
  33. Science is a process by 2short · · Score: 2, Insightful


    Our understanding of the world is, and will always be, approximate.

    Science is a process by which we improve that approximation. Nothing we used to know is now wrong. Some things we used to roughly understand we now understand better.

    It appears that the Eukaryotes emerged sometime over a billion years ago. As far back as we could figure out, it looked like there were five groups of them, but we didn't understand which of those groups were more closely related to each other. Further research has now refined our approximation, and it appears two of those groups are more closely related that the rest.

    So, certain single-celled organisms are understood to be more closely related to certain other single celled organisms than previously thought. Compared to any of the organisms involved, you're still more closely related to certain other single celled organisms, as well as all animals and fungi. If that shakes your world view, you need to get out more. :)

  34. No worries by Dachannien · · Score: 1

    Ultimately, this is all moot. In 2029, the Tree of Life will get what's coming to it, as administered by a giant hexapedal cloaking tank with miniguns for arms.

  35. This does not answer the important question: by jd · · Score: 1

    Why do biological names look like an explosion in an alphabet soup factory? At first, I thought this was because the classicist biologists had all learned Latin, but I think this vandalism, this hacking a branch off the tree of life reveals the true answer. The vandals ARE setting off explosions in an alphabet soup factory and writing down the words that form.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  36. Only one origin? by kentsin · · Score: 1

    The assumption of single origin should not be trusted.

    1. Re:Only one origin? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Can you bring some evidence to bear that would weigh against Common Descent?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  37. Truth by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

    When religion doesn't get it right, people abandon it completely
    If only that were true!
    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  38. Stay tuned by Teflon_Jeff · · Score: 1

    To see who loses out on the next episode of... Survivor: Supertypes!

    --
    "Teach a man to build a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."
  39. eukaryotes by Whiteox · · Score: 1

    Hey! Where have my missing eukaryotes gone?

    --
    Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  40. Oblig. Picard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There! Are! Four! Branches!

  41. Is this like how ... by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    they decided that Pluto isn't a planet?

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    1. Re:Is this like how ... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      All Americans suck because they are so awesome.

      That said...

      I hate tghe generalization of 'They'.

      No 'They' didn't change the classification of Pluto. A completely different scientists in a completely different field did.

      Don't say 'they'. It's as annoying as saying 'The Government'.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  42. I get your comment, but you don't get his. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is also no real prohibition against shooting people in the Christian Bible.

    I get what you're saying: abortion is murder, and to say that there's no prohibition against abortion implies that specific types of murder are not specifically prohibited. It's a wry comment and one that flew right over the head of most of the people that responded.

    The real problem is that murder is effectively undefined in the Bible. Clearly there are some forms of killing of other humans that are allowed: war in the name of God, stoning adulterers, self-defense, etc. There are also ample examples of killing of non-humans that is allowed: kosher animal slaughter, animal sacrifice, slaughter of the livestock of enemy nations that you're at war with, etc.

    What's not explicitly clear in the Bible is whether or not the unborn can be "murdered" per se. The question of when someone becomes a human being with a soul (and whether the possession of a soul or any other factors are even relevant) is completely unanswered in the Bible. The whole "life begins at conception" movement is taking a reasonable stance (with respect to the scripture), but it is a stance that is largely textually unsupported without some really extreme assumptions about the meanings of certain words and the knowledge of Biblical writers about fetal development.

    In essence, it's a point of dogma which is based purely on non-textual philosophical decisions. It's also not the only valid interpretation. Some Rabbinical scholars have asserted in the past that a person only gains a soul on the taking of their first breath (neatly side-stepping all the issues of God's fairness with regards to miscarriages). Some people have pointed to Exodus 22:21-23 (punishment for striking a pregnant women and causing a miscarriage) but don't really read the next couple of verses which make classic eye-for-eye, tooth-for-tooth restitutions that make it ambiguous whether this is meant to apply to the death of the child or the mother (babies don't have teeth, but neither are they likely to be burned by having their mother struck).

    Anyway, the Bible simply doesn't talk about abortion at all. The closest thing it talks about is miscarriage through misfortune or violence, and the focus of punishment is usually framed in terms of the loss of the parents (father) instead of the loss of the life of the child.

  43. Actually... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ....oh nevermind talking to u guys is a waste of time...

  44. What? Me worry? by PPH · · Score: 1

    As long as us Linux users don't have to share a branch with Windows users, I'm OK with it.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  45. I'm a EUKARYOTE? by Riktov · · Score: 1

    Honestly, I never new that. I thought eukaryotes were like some sort of fossilized microorganisms, or something.

  46. Lawyers? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Isn't there a separate branch for lawyers?

  47. Live Viruses? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I think viruses are alive. But they're neither eukaryotic nor prokaryotic, unless you call the whole planet their "cell". Where are they in the tree?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Live Viruses? by mauthbaux · · Score: 1

      Generally speaking, we don't consider viruses to be alive. The reasoning for this is that they are not capable of replication anywhere outside of a host cell. They don't really metabolize anything; they don't reproduce on their own. To be more specific, there has yet to be a virus whose genetic makeup includes the genes to construct a ribosome (IIRC, genes for most other organelles have been found in viral genomes - see mimivirus). Without a ribosome RNA instructions cannot be translated into a protein structure.

      A virus is essentially genetic material (RNA or DNA) coupled with a few enzymes, all wrapped in an envelope (protein with or without a lipid membrane). However, despite being non-living, they do evolve, and evolutionary trees for viruses have been constructed. They're just separate from the three-domain model we're talking about here.

      --
      "Operating systems suck: you're better off using only the BIOS" --trainsaw.com
  48. Bad example. by TheLink · · Score: 1

    The food pyramid has little basis in science.

    People interested in their own wellbeing should have ignored the food pyramid.

    A good clue was it was produced by the Department of Agriculture.

    The last I checked those silly food pyramids and rings and crap weren't produced by the Department of Health, or even the FDA.

    Think about it honestly, has the US DoA's top priority ever been the health of the US citizens?

    Go figure.

    --
  49. Here's a mindblowing idea... by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 1

    I really like how they use genetic analysis to determine groups of organisms they originally thought were unrelated, actually were related.

    Wouldn't it be wild if they came across an organism, but couldn't make it fit into any other group, and ended up concluding that it wasn't a lifeform that originated on Earth? :D

    --
    There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
  50. I understand this is /. by Smordnys+s'regrepsA · · Score: 1
    I'm betting you didn't RTFA (usually I don't either, but this one was too good to pass up. It even had a pretty picture-diagram). They briefly explain why this classification system is important.

    Important Discovery

    "Kinship says a lot about shared traits. Our findings can be important in many fields, such as in the study of the development of life and in the manufacture of new medicines" says Shalchian-Tabrizi in an interview with the University of Oslo's research magazine Apollon.

    "Our knowledge of organisms and the development of medicines are often based on comparative studies across species. It is, therefore, essential that we know the relationships between the largest groups in the great diversity of eukaryotes," he adds.

    The research group has, for example, found that brown algae and silica algae, and groups of single cell organisms like the malaria parasite, marine foraminifera, and the green sun animalcule (acanthocystis turfacea) actually belong to the same group. Previously, these species were thought to be completely unrelated.

    Fewer Events

    "The Tree of Life tells the story of life on Earth, and our research can say something about how quickly life developed. Our discovery suggests that there were fewer big "events" than we have previously assumed in the development of higher life forms. The more we know about the branches on the Tree of Life, the more we can find out about life's Big Bang, the beginning of life on Earth," says Shalchian-Tabrizi.

    "By digging down into the historical layers with the help of phylogenetic reconstruction, where we can find out about kinship between organisms at the genetic level and we can find answers to questions about how new traits developed. We are working, in a matter of speaking, with genetic archaeology. In this manner, we can also discover the cause of the Earth's biological diversity," says Jakobsen.
    Emphasis mine, of course.
    --
    Just -1, Troll talking to another.
    1. Re:I understand this is /. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      If they have to keep changing the tree, then not enough stability exists for such to be useful toward those goals. Plus, my suggestion is not mutually-exclusive with a tree.

  51. Re:First used by Darwin?: YES by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
    So Charles Darwin, born in the 1809, predates the Kabbalah?

    Try quoting the ENTIRE SENTENCE:

    "The Tree of Life is an expression first used by Charles Darwin to describe the diversity of organisms on Earth and their evolutionary history."

    Did the Kaballah use it in that sense?

  52. What SCM tool were they using? by laejoh · · Score: 0

    PVCS? 'coz, as a Subversion admin I cannot imagine loosing a branch!

    Naaa, I didn't RTFA, did I have to?

  53. Tree of undead by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

    Isn't there a separate branch for lawyers? Probably on the tree of undead, with zombies, vampires, and politicians.
    --
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  54. More amazing... by LaskoVortex · · Score: 1

    Wow, usually these phylogenetic trees are not rooted, which means you can divide them any way you like. So, the really amazing story is they rooted the tree of life! Good job, especially since we actually thought it was a ring of life.

    --
    Just callin' it like I see it.
  55. what you really mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you wish to wander down the road of epistemological nihilism It's called solipsism, and it's all you're left with if you "deny the inductive step" as you pointed out.

    this is decent:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
  56. Re:First used by Darwin?: YES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes. It did, and does. Kabbalah is an ancient Jewish tradition. You can read a lot about it online. It has to do something with exploring the true names of God. Interestingly, it also has to do with much more than that, and how God is tied to the entire universe... i.e. it's about the describing the diversity of life on earth and it's evolutionary historical ties to God. In later years, it led to alchemy, which in turn led to bastardizations of itself like Enochian Angel Magick and the study of biology.

  57. Re:Correction: "Tree of Life" is an old expression by TFGeditor · · Score: 1

    Parent stole my post.

    I intended to point out that the summary was either inaccurate or constructed with poor syntax. i.e. Was Darwin "first to use the expression" or first to use the expression "to describe the diversity of organisms on Earth and their evolutionary history."

    --
    Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
  58. Looking for Illustrations of the Tree by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

    i'm working on an artificial language and need some help finding charts/illustrations of the tree of life. If you know of any sites or books with detailed trees, please post them here or send them in a PM.

    Thanks in advance!
    A

    "In the pursuit of knowledge, every day something is added.
    In the pursuit of understanding, every day something is removed."

    i just added this to my quote collection. Brilliant!

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  59. What did the lazy prokaryote say to the nucleus? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    I'm tired, eukaryote.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  60. maybe it should be an honorary planet by davidwr · · Score: 1

    After all, if colleges can give people who never went to college an honorary Ph.D., surely astronomers can give celestial bodies an honorary Planet-hood Descriptor.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  61. eTextbooks by suitti · · Score: 1

    It is estimated that less than a percent of microorganisms have been identified. You can go to your back yard and discover something new to science. Go ahead and do that right now - i'll wait. The article suggests that this new finding is the not end of the issue. So clearly, instead of changing the textbooks and making students buy the new one, the textbooks should be on line, where they can be updated and disseminated quickly. For example:

    http://www.textbookrevolution.org/

    So, Archaea, Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes and Viruses. Eukaryotes come in four groups: Plants, Opisthokonts (that's us and other fungi, etc.), Excavates, and SAR.

    The article does not eliminate Prokaryotes, or combine Archaea with something else, or mention Viruses.

    So, what's the current consensus on Prions?

    --
    -- Stephen.
    1. Re:eTextbooks by Portfolio · · Score: 1

      "So, what's the current consensus on Prions?"

      They get some of the best ATP mileage of the current production hybrid infectious agents, unlike the phosphate-guzzling SUperVirii.

  62. Re:First used by Darwin?: YES by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your reading of "to describe..." as binding more strongly to "Charles Darwin" than "first used by" is possible, but very unnatural. It's also clearly not intended by the author, as it would be an extremely awkward and ambiguous way to express that concept. Instead, the author would have written something like, "Charles Darwin was the first to use the expression 'The Tree of Life' to describe the diversity..."

    Face it: the author doesn't know the history of the term. That doesn't render the entire article worthless, but the misinformation warrants correction.

  63. So which species is it that has travelled in time? by munch117 · · Score: 1

    While a tree-structure is algorithmically convenient and very enticing... the "tree of life" is not a tree. Ie it is not a "directed, acyclic graph". Unfortunately it has 'cycles'. I'll take your word for it that the "tree of life" is not a tree. But it doesn't have cycles. Trust me.
  64. Not first used by Darwin by HellYeahAutomaton · · Score: 1
  65. I have always wondered... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what life-form group Americans belonged to?

    I say reptiles.....

  66. , - ? Punctuation does matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Roland,

    "There are only two life forms, -- eukaryotes, which gather their genetic material in a nucleus, and prokaryotes, such as bacteria, which have their
    genetic material floating freely in the cell."

    How about writing using proper punctuation? What is ", --"? Simply throwing more marks in there doesn't actually make it better.

    You could write it with a colon.

    There are only two life forms: eukaryotes, which gather their genetic material in a nucleus, and prokaryotes, such as bacteria, which have their
    genetic material floating freely in the cell.

    You could add more punch. This form also gets rid of the word which.

    There are only two life forms: eukaryotes and prokaryotes. Eukaryotes gather their genetic material in a nucleus. Prokaryotes have their genetic material floating freely in the cell. Humans are collectives of eukaryotes. Bacteria are prokaryotes.

  67. I was in the branch, Now what the ... do I do?

  68. fact by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

    Anyone that says that the current theory of evolution is fact isn't being scientific. The fact of the evolution of life that we can observe is best explained by the current theory, the first draft of which was introduced by Charles Darwin.
    His theory is much better than the previous theory proposed by Lamarck which did not pass the tests against it.

    But the fact that there is a theory to explain evolution doesn't make evolution any less of a fact.
    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  69. qwerty by Sithgunner · · Score: 1

    qwerty

  70. JeanPaulBob, you can do better! by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

    The "condemnations" of homosexuality on the one hand and shrimp on the other are not the same, using entirely different words. (Just because the 400 year-old language in the KJV uses the word "abomination" in both passages, doesn't mean the Hebrew is the same.)

    (the following was shamelessly taken from godhatesshrimp.com)

    But, some of you say, in the original Hebrew, there are two words that were both translated as "abomination": to'eivah , for homosexuality, and sheketz , for non-kosher food.

    Our answer to that is:

    1. Sure, that's the letter of the law, but pretty mealy-mouthed, in our opinion - you take the "strict constructionist" viewpoint in this situation to justify your prejudice while still being able to eat what you want, while glossing over or ignoring other translation problems in other parts of the bible. (More about biblical mistranslations in Romans and Corinthians: What the New Testament Says About Homosexuality)
    2. You claim that some parts of the bible are open to interpretation, that there are translation errors, that some parts only apply to Jews, etc., and then simultaneously claim that the bible is inerrant and without flaw... a positively Orwellian bit of doublethink there. Either follow all the rules, or admit that they're all outdated.

    But, still others say, what about 1 Corinthians? Paul says... Well, the easy answer is, this site was never meant to be a comprehensive rebuttal to following outdated religious rules. The less easy answer is that, in his letter to the church in Corinth, Paul referred to restrictions listed in Mosaic law in the Torah, a.k.a. the Old Testament, so basing your argument on Paul's reference to a source that was declared invalid by Jesus (see above) is a shaky bit of reasoning. Or to explain it more clearly, we'll quote a friend who is studying to be a minister:

    1) Paul is not God.

    2) When Paul is citing this list of sins he is doing it to make the point that the Church in Corinth is free of these sins, which were listed in the Torah, because of their faith in Jesus. Paul's letter to the Romans spells out in excruciating detail how the law no longer applies to Christians because they have died to sin and been risen in Jesus. In other words, these categories were good enough for our Hebrew forebears as they went, but as Jesus says to the tricky scribes, Moses gave those laws (specifically speaking of divorce) because the people's hearts were hard. Jesus clearly demands a higher mode of ethical conduct; in repeated instruction and parables he contrasts what people were taught with what he says. Therefore, Paul's personal feelings about what kind of people will inherit the kingdom of God, taken as a blanket condemnation of certain behaviors, is not only contrary to Paul's own teachings on the matter of justification, but deeply opposed to the spirit and teaching of Christ.

    3) What Paul is giving a list of, in both verses that you cite, are examples of depraved conduct, as he sees it. His point is that when people turn their backs on God, they are prone to act in all kinds of sick ways; his point is not to list things that Christians should mark in their notebooks as being the "newly revised Levitical code". Paul is saying, "You guys used to do all kinds of crazy shit, but now that you have Jesus, you've got your act together." I would say that there is a big difference between lustful, furtive couplings and a committed, healthy relationship. The notion of a committed, healthy homosexual relationship was utterly foreign to early Jews and Christians, as was the notion of abolition, racial intermarriage, antiseptics, and all sorts of other things that we take for granted today.

    4) Jesus never mentions homosexuality in the Gospels, not once. If it was so important that we had to clamp down on it anywhere and eve

    --
    With the first link, the chain is forged.
  71. They did what? by yet+another+coward · · Score: 1

    What did these researchers make go extinct? They wiped out a whole kingdom? Awesome. Humans are awesome.