Space Shuttle Secrets Stolen For China

Ponca City, We Love You writes "The Department of Justice has announced the indictment of former Boeing engineer Dongfan Chung on charges of economic espionage in the theft of company trade secrets relating to the Space Shuttle, the C-17 military transport aircraft, and the Delta IV rocket. Chung is a native of China and a naturalized US citizen. According to the indictment, Chinese aviation industry representatives began sending Chung 'tasking' letters as early as 1979. Over the years, the letters directed Chung to collect specific technological information, including data related to the Space Shuttle and various military and civilian aircraft. Chung allegedly responded in one letter indicating a desire to contribute to the 'motherland,' the DOJ said. It was not immediately clear how much, if any, damage the alleged espionage did to US national security but DOJ officials said the cases reflect the determination of the Chinese government to penetrate US intelligence and obtain vital national defense secrets. 'Today's prosecution demonstrates that foreign spying remains a serious threat in the post-Cold War world,' said Kenneth L. Wainstein, Assistant Attorney General for National Security"

Comments

Re:too much

[mrxak]

I would certainly hope that every worker in our national space and military industries would have to undergo background checks and periodic lie detector tests, just like they use in the CIA.

Why is it always China?

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

Why is it always naturalized citizens from china, or American-born citizens who's parents were born in China that are in the news for doing this?

Re:Why is it always China?

[ScrewMaster]

Seriously. I suggest you do some research on what's been going on there, for some time now. For example, a Ph.D. I know was talking about the materials science department at his school. It was flooded with Chinese students, the Dean was Chinese (a Chinese national himself, not a U.S. citizen) who would take months-long sabbaticals to China order to recruit more students for his department. They squeezed all the other students (American as well as from other countries) out. Arrogant about it too, he was telling me: it was their department, basically. He was one of the few U.S. citizens left in that particular graduate program, and this was some years ago. Others tried to get in, but there weren't enough positions left ... the Chinese had filled them all.

They're educating themselves to advance their nation's interests, and their doing at our expense. This is happening all over, so yes, I think "pillage" is a good word. We put limits on legal immigration from different countries, with only so many allowed per year from each. That's not unusual among nations, everyone places controls on immigration. However, I think we should start doing the same thing for foreign students, especially from China since they're abusing the system. At the very least, they should only be allowed to study here if they aren't displacing U.S. citizens. Face it, the Chinese are putting their country first: I have no problem with that. However, we should start doing the same if we want to have a country.

Re:Why is it always China?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. I suggest you do some research on what's been going on there, for some time now.

First I'd like to apologize that since I'm posting as Anonymous Coward (I never bothered to created an account), I am probably the opposite of what you think I am when you were replying my previous post. I happen to be a Chinese national currently studying in a U.S. university as a Ph.D. student.

For example, a Ph.D. I know was talking about the materials science department at his school. It was flooded with Chinese students, the Dean was Chinese (a Chinese national himself, not a U.S. citizen) who would take months-long sabbaticals to China order to recruit more students for his department. They squeezed all the other students (American as well as from other countries) out. Arrogant about it too, he was telling me: it was their department, basically. He was one of the few U.S. citizens left in that particular graduate program, and this was some years ago. Others tried to get in, but there weren't enough positions left ... the Chinese had filled them all.

They're educating themselves to advance their nation's interests, and their doing at our expense. This is happening all over, so yes, I think "pillage" is a good word. We put limits on legal immigration from different countries, with only so many allowed per year from each. That's not unusual among nations, everyone places controls on immigration. However, I think we should start doing the same thing for foreign students, especially from China since they're abusing the system. At the very least, they should only be allowed to study here if they aren't displacing U.S. citizens. Face it, the Chinese are putting their country first: I have no problem with that. However, we should start doing the same if we want to have a country.

And did you ask how many of those Chinese students go back to China after graduation, and how many of them stay in U.S. and get employed by a U.S. company, or the Chinese branch of a U.S. company? From what I've heard and seen, I'd want to guess more than 50% of them stayed in U.S.

In China there is actually some voice concerning that China is losing the top college graduates to U.S. In their opinion, the U.S. universities lured the Chinese students with better programs and better job opportunities, and those students are not coming back to China after graduation. Or, using your words, the U.S. is pillaging China's high school and undergraduate education systems. I'm not saying I agree with this viewpoint, just to let you know there are different interpretations of the same fact.

In my department (also a Materials Science one), there hadn't been much Chinese influence on the professor level (I think we had the first Chinese professor only two years ago), but since I came here six year ago, Chinese students have always been quite a large part, probably more than students from any other countries, including U.S. Why? In my opinion, because there are no competent U.S. applicants.

In the research group I'm in, there hasn't been a single U.S. graduate students or postdoc since I came here. All of them are foreigners, from China, India, Russia, Korea, Iran, etc. I've also seen the graduate program applicants for our department, there aren't that many U.S. students there. I don't know much about the math and science in high school and undergraduate education in U.S., but what I saw and heard confirms my impression that the average U.S. applicant is not as competent as a foreigner. So I think we are indeed studying here without displacing any U.S. citizens. Of course, I've only seen one department in one school, everybody should look more and draw his/her own conclusions.

Of course, theoretically the U.S. can refuse foreign students or apply a hard number/percentage cap like they do for H-1 work visas. Whether that is going to be a good thing or bad thing for U.S. universities and the scientific research in U.S. is a different matter.

Re:Why is it always China?

[drpimp]

While I agree the parent post is anecdotal, and I do agree mostly with your comment, the most truth of your statement is the part about Americans valuing college differently. I am currently getting my masters degree in Computer Science. During my undergrad, I'd say the spread of race among the student was pretty diverse and spread equally. Now yes most of the students getting the better grades were in fact foreign students, but it was not always true to that either. A lot of the American national students that were getting the grades where those that thought outside the box, studied more than what was just being taught, and learned new things in their interests in computers. Surprisingly enough, most of that smaller group of people were those who dabbled into Linux (could be entirely unrelated, or is it?). With that said, those American students mostly just wanted to get their B-C grades, and get their degree in Computer Science riding the wave that they would get a high paying programming job once they got their diploma (some of these guys couldn't tell a pointer from an address, or even what dereferencing was for that matter, neither here nor there). Fast forward to masters program. I am 1 of 2 white people in all of my classes, and probably only 4-5 American citizens. Why is this? A large number of Americans don't feel like a masters is worth it? I don't know, but what I do know is that all of the foreign students (Chinese, Korean, Pakistani, Jordanian, Indian, what have you) go to school full time, and that is all they do. Now while I am an A-B student, if I went to school abroad you'd better believe I'd probably have a 4.0 GPA. You also have to factor in a few more things. These guys come here to go to school, so they take classes with people in their same culture. It really helps to study with more people to understand concepts. Final point, even though I do think as well that foreign students should be regulated, it will never happen. Have you seen the price of tuition for foreigners? They are almost triple, so who is making the money? The schools, because of the top of my head, it does not cost anymore to teach a foreigner than it does a national, and schools are somewhat of a business so they must profit to prosper. Now that could be totally wrong as there may be other reasons for that, but I am not the person to ask that.

My two Abe Lincolns

Uhm

[moosesocks]

Are the designs to the Space Shuttle even worth stealing? It's thus far proven to be an expensive and unreliable launch platform.

If anything, China would serve itself better by looking to the North, and copying Soyuz. Hell... I'm sure the Russians would be willing to sell the designs/equipment for most of their spacecraft for a very reasonable price, given their perpetual funding woes.

Even ignoring all that, it's still 1970s technology.

I wonder?

[Anonymous Coward]

Steal our tech secrets and send us poisoned food and things. Coincidence?

Re:And at what point do we close the doors on them

[Anonymous Coward]

When they begin to bomb us.

Right now we are getting loads of cheap and almost okay quality products.

It's a tradeoff. I don't like it mind you. Shipping slavery to another continent is not something I approve of.

Well, at least now...

[Penguinisto]

They can write some code that doesn't need a shedload of debugging...

Okay, on a serious note, this is 1976(?) tech here. I can understand wanting it real bad in 1979, but, err, 32 year-old-stuff is kinda dated when you consider that we routinely give China techonology that's a whole Hell of a lot newer.

Besides, weren't they going to retire the Shuttle anyway? If China wants one so bad, why not sell 'em a used one for a decent markup?

As someone who has worked in and around certain aircraft projects a very long time ago, I can say for certain that this guy would've never even hoped to get near, say, an F-117 or B-2 project... there's too much compartmentalization (especially between NASA and the USAF/USN, for Hell's sakes...)

Given all of that - unless the guy started hacking mainframes and whatnot @ Boeing, I guess I just don't see where there would be a really huge dent in US national security at this point. He wouldn't have had the clearance, for starters.

/P

Re:Um, just for the record...

[FishWithAHammer]

Espionage is a way of life amongst governments.

If American-backed spies stole Chinese plans, the Chinese would be up in arms, milking it for all it's worth. That's what everyone does.

Re:too much

[The One and Only]

It's funny because it's true--you think they're going to send in field agents who will break down under questioning? Lie detectors are the least of what they get trained and tested for--where do you think they got the idea for waterboarding from?

Re:And at what point do we close the doors on them

[Tablizer]

And how would you fill up your WalMarts? Americans don't manufacture anything anymore... who's gonna make yer [stuff]?

India, Mexico, Taiwan, South Korea, Brazil, Columbia, etc. There are plenty of democracies or semi-democracies that would love to have our business.

And/or, we could put our own rust-belt back to work so maybe their crime and poverty will go down. The "evils" of protectionism are exaggerated by business lobbyists.

Re:Anyone remember Wen Ho Lee?

[ScrewMaster]

No, actually we don't, and yes, China is. One of many, as it happens, but they're about the biggest threat we have to our sovereignty at the moment (we're way too dependent upon China, which means we are neither a free nor an independent nation.) Hell, they're the biggest threat we have to just being able to clothe ourselves and keep the lights on.

Now, our government may need enemies in order to justify increasing levels of control over the U.S. population, but to make a sweeping statement that "Americans just need AN ENEMY" is ridiculous, and just a tad bigoted.

Keep trying for that +5 Insightful, though.

israel

[ezwip]

I see you deleted my comment. Interesting...

Re:too much

[Anonymous Coward]

Perfect security just isn't possible. And in an R&D environment, security and progress are often at odds with each other. You can lock everything down tight, but then you won't get anything done. If you do get things done, it'll be because your really smart people are bypassing your protections.

That's not to say that you should ignore violations. But as with everything, it's a tradeoff and it must be considered as such. Yes, there are other measures which could be taken, but given the cost both in money and lost productivity, is it actually worth it? The answer may be yes, but the question must be considered rather than simply assuming that anything which increases security must be a good idea.

Re:too much

[The One and Only]

Indirectly, yes. Part of the SERE training our troops and (probably) CIA field agents go through involves torture resistance training, and one of the techniques they train for is waterboarding. It doesn't really make it better but at least they're familiar with what's going on, in theory. Anyway, the entire torture thing started when a few enterprising folks realized that torture resistance training also functioned as torture training.

Re:too much

[Prune]

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