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An Epidemic of Snooping

Travoltus writes "Privacy advocates are frequently confronted with the rhetorical question, 'If you don't have anything to hide, you don't have a good reason to worry about losing your privacy, right?' This AP story uncovers a vast, distributed, decentralized epidemic of snooping into databases of personal information by workers at major utilities, the IRS, and other large organizations. In a number of cases these incidents have led to real harm. One striking example involves now ex-Mayor of Milwaukee Marvin Pratt, who had a pattern of being late paying his heating bills. This fact was leaked to the media by a utility worker and may have led to Pratt's losing a bid for re-election. As one can imagine, the harm becomes much greater when this same snooping is done by Government officials to deal with political enemies, or by corporations to uncover whistleblowers."

163 comments

  1. Q&A by calebt3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How's this for an answer:
    I do have stuff to hide. It's just not illegal stuff.

    1. Re:Q&A by morari · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some of mine is illegal. Only a patriot like myself would be willing to break such unjust laws however.

      --
      "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
    2. Re:Q&A by statusbar · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't have anything to hide! I live at #4-1131 burnaby st in vancouver, I own 3 macintosh computers, 2 linux servers, a video camera, MIDI equipment, a large screen plasma tv, a ps3 and an xbox 360.

      I have loads of dvd's and I blog about all of my favourites.

      On wednesday I will be going on a trip for a few weeks and although I don't have an alarm system I have a pet cat. I'm getting my friend Kim to come over every day at noon to feed my cat.

      I am a trusting person and I'm SURE that no one would take advantage of this information and break in and rob me while I'm gone!

      Once again, I have nothing to hide!

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    3. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You and your cat can goto hell! I'm not going to risk my life after you post this information to all these potential burglars and rapists!
      -Kim

    4. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some of mine is illegal. Only a patriot like myself would be willing to break such unjust laws however. It sounds to me that you hate freedom. Those laws were put in place to restrict you actions thus making sure you have liberty.
    5. Re:Q&A by Domo-Sun · · Score: 1

      Privacy permits us to feel less anxious. Consider the life of a celebrity. Seems humans need to hide a little to be sane.

      The whole argument is a false dilemma between 1) You're either hiding something or 2) you have nothing to fear (trust us wit total access). The Nazis used this sort of reasoning and it demonstrates there's always something to fear with overwhelming powers brandishing trick logic.

    6. Re:Q&A by ccb621 · · Score: 1

      You forgot this.

    7. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if I go to your house and kick your cat and tell Kim she's a bitch? Then how will you feel about privacy?

    8. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      While I agree with your principle, the Kohlberg Stages of Moral Development explain why most people do not understand the argument you just made.

    9. Re:Q&A by CBravo · · Score: 1

      You're not done yet. Please answer the following questions too:
      -what do you earn monthly
      -what is your best kept secret up to now
      -when did you last have sex, and how was it
      -describe in detail your most embarrasing social encounters

      tell me the answers to those questions and I'll come back with a few more.

      --
      nosig today
    10. Re:Q&A by statusbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ---- Whoosh ----

      Someone didn't get the joke.

      Do you really think I'd be so stupid as to post real information?

      I thought people would get the hint that it was a joke by saying "I'm sure no one would rob me -- look at all the stuff I have!"....

      In my opinion, people who violate their own privacy deserve what they get (or lose, as it may be).

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    11. Re:Q&A by lee1026 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Curiously enough, a truly privacy-free world would be better for the person in question. It would easy enough for him to find out who robbed him if no one had any privacy. If we are allowed to assume that all people are rational actors, then no one would rob him.

    12. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Woah. I grew up in 1141, next door (the big ugly brown building on the other side of that huge tree). There was a totally hot girl who used to live where you... umm, hi son?

    13. Re:Q&A by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It has more to do with the selective use of information to create a false image, also useful to know when a person does not have a legally effective alibi. And as beneficial to the corrupt is the blackmail of parents by the disclosure of the behaviour of their children, whether that behaviour would reflect badly on the parents or just to protect the future of their misbehaving children.

      So the whole thing about privacy is not what you want to keep secret, but about those people who want to keep secret from you but simultaneously want to know everything about you and your family. Why do all those freak privacy people pry into everybody lives, is it really so effective to tailor marketing campaigns, so they are my psychologically targeted at specific individuals, and thus drone like they a forced to mindlessly buy products, or perhaps where you can not effective manipulate the parents directly perhaps more effective psychological manipulation can be targeted via their children.

      Isn't the typical view of a arse hole slime ball portrayed as someone who tells you all the private information about yourself whilst you know nothing about them and how they can manipulate that information, as it has been viewed for thousands of years, yet suddenly with the advent of the googlites et al. your private email is a postcard, your web searching is something to be used to target you even your medical records will be under the auctioneers hammer, your privacy for sale to the highest bidder.

      So the real question is not about what right we have to privacy, but what god damned right those arse holes have to invade it, collate it, digitally anal-yse it and to manipulate it and thus seek control over your, what, shopping habits, and maybe voting habits. To gauge over the long term how the right assemblage of messages can most effectively manipulate your behaviour and choices, and thus in affect eliminate any real free conscious choice.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    14. Re:Q&A by CBravo · · Score: 1

      oh please, I did... But to stay OT: the examples you gave are not really 'heavy' secrets that people usually really want to keep. That is why I replied.

      --
      nosig today
    15. Re:Q&A by werewolf1031 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If we are allowed to assume that all people are rational actors, then no one would rob him.
      Therein lies the principal flaw with your proposal. If you need it explained to you further, then you Just Don't Get It... and you're part of the problem.
    16. Re:Q&A by MindKata · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "A truly privacy-free world would be better for the person in question"

      That's true only in a utopian world of total equality. But it has two major problems. First the world doesn't work like that, its got a hierarchy. Secondly, a lot of people in power would consider this kind of open, flat, everyone equal, utopian world, as their idea of a dystopia, not a utopia. They want power. They don't want it flat and open. They want to be higher up than others. They want to be the centre of attention. They want more money than others. They want more power than others.

      So that kind of totally open world is a scifi only utopian world, that cannot ever exist in a world that has some people who also seek power and that will never change. Plus these people who seek power ultimately make the rules, so they will not allow it to go that far, where everyone becomes equal.

      Political ideologies are ultimately driven by the psychology of personality types, as with all human patterns of behaviour. These personality types will continue to exist, regardless of how technology evolves in the future. So the personality types will shape what technology is allowed or disallowed and how it is used.

      I am sadly convinced however that Big Brother in becoming inevitable. Too many people want the power it gives over others. Its becoming a scramble for who can grab as much of that new power faster than others. The examples of Google's chess moves show this to be true. Google's "do no harm" PR smoke screen marketing theme is sounding more hollow, every new move Google makes. Their goal is to become some kind of marketing version of Big Brother, but with the total knowledge they are building up, they will also have immense political power as well. Google data mine everything they have. Each new chess move of Google reminds me of the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Google is becoming Big Brother. Yet few people seem to be able to see its slowly happening.

      Given the kinds of personalities that can easily dominate in corporations, its hardly surprising.
      http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=448546&cid=22377974

      So I think the question is becoming not if we will have a Big Brother, but what the form of that Big Brother will take. Google definitely are becoming a marketing Big Brother and others are racing to try to grab some of what Google are grabbing for themselves. Then again, its not simply just marketing products. Marketing of anything can be helped with market research. So selling ideas just as selling products is still selling. So marketing a product or marketing a political ideology using these kinds of new technologies is going to happen, regardless of what that ideology the people want to market. The more market research that can be grabbed, the more power it gives to the people with that knowledge

      Knowledge mining is the new gold rush and with it brings power over others. Its the nature of the game. But that has existed in some form, for centuries. But now we have the ability to monitor and mine everything people are interested in and what their thoughts are when they for example post emails etc... Not only that, the Internet is a growing database of these ideas on blogs etc... Give it say another decade or two and imagine what kinds of data mining can be done on archived data, to work out what people think thought out their lives.

      Its like the old saying, "Knowledge is power".

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
    17. Re:Q&A by FudRucker · · Score: 1

      show them the business end of a 12 gauge shotgun and tell them if they cross the threshold they are going to get a load of double ought buck,,,

      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    18. Re:Q&A by kvezach · · Score: 1

      If we are allowed to assume that all people are rational actors, then no one would rob him.

      If we are allowed to assume that all people are rational actors, hardly anyone would bother voting, either, since the chance of altering the outcome with a single vote is so incredibly small. Clearly this is not the case.

    19. Re:Q&A by JeremyDuffy · · Score: 1

      I have an entire article about how wrong and stupid the "Nothing to Hide" argument is: http://www.jeremyduffy.com/privacy-security/nothing-to-hide/ If you're looking for a comeback argument, I've got several.

      --
      Informing people about the scams, shams, and bunk that assault them on a daily basis. http://www.jeremyduffy.com
    20. Re:Q&A by dpilot · · Score: 1

      This is why I've never put up a personal web page.

      Enough people are able to find out enough information about me, do I really want to volunteer any more? I realize that I may control what information I put up, but am I really good enough to put up ONLY the information I want to release, and not leak something I don't want to? For instance, a lot of people put up vacation photos. They may thing they're only talking about where they've been, but they're frequently leaking information about their family - the number of members, their appearance, sex, age, etc. If their family car is in a photo, they've leaked a general idea of where they live, the car, clothing, and gear may leak something about general income level, etc.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    21. Re:Q&A by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1

      I own 3 macintosh computers, 2 linux servers, a video camera, MIDI equipment, a large screen plasma tv, a ps3 and an xbox 360.
      Only a terrorist would own an xbox 360.
    22. Re:Q&A by digitrev · · Score: 1

      But then it would make sense to vote, so as to cancel out the irrational votes of those who would vote.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    23. Re:Q&A by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      *ahem* civil disobedience means breaking laws AND accepting the punishment doled out for it. So if you're truly letting patriotism guiding you, then you have reported this illegal stuff to your local police station YOURSELF, right ? No need for privacy in databases to uncover your illegal stuff.

    24. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have nothing to hide, then why do you still have curtains on your windows?

    25. Re:Q&A by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with your point.

      However, I believe that those in control of society are getting better at dealing with civil disobedience.

      I think they used to be embarrassed by it but are no longer. I also think they are better at spinning it, or suppressing reporting of it, or negating it's impact (in part by say, smearing the person being civilly disobedient.)

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    26. Re:Q&A by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      I also have my own answer. "So, you don't believe there's a right to privacy. OK, let's see your wife naked. Let's put a camera in your bedroom." It's a win-win because you either win the argument, or you get to see the wife's boobies.

      Alternatively, I can go around showing people MY O-face. They'll quickly start demanding that I excercise my own right to privacy.

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    27. Re:Q&A by morethanapapercert · · Score: 2, Interesting
      For the lazy criminal here is a map to Jeff Koftinoff's apartment:
      1131 Burnaby St

      Note the parks within easy running distance if the police should happen to interrupt your B&E and the hospital if you throw out your back hauling all that stuff out to your truck.
        Also, Jeff is a contributer to Open Source software so please don't steal any of the media (CD's, thumb drives etc) since you can probably download much of it from Freshmeat or his own website
       

      I found two odd things when googling Jeff; first, that he lives in apt #5, not #4 so perhaps Jeff is trying to arrange that an annoying neighbor get robbed?
            Second, he once posted a number of conspiracy theory pages that are now all 404. So perhaps this isn't really Jeff issuing this invitation? perhaps it's the CIA looking to take him down for posting the Truth?


      I'd post more but it is really hard to do invasive, privacy violating searches while bouncing a toddler on one's knee and keeping him away from the keyboard.

      --
      I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
    28. Re:Q&A by jollyreaper · · Score: 3, Funny

      Do you really think I'd be so stupid as to post real information? Err, no! Of course, not. Don't be silly. *quietly cancels U-Haul rental*
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    29. Re:Q&A by dave562 · · Score: 1
      To gauge over the long term how the right assemblage of messages can most effectively manipulate your behaviour and choices, and thus in affect eliminate any real free conscious choice.

      The mind is at its root free and clear. All you must do is not cloud it.

    30. Re:Q&A by tzjanii · · Score: 0

      Heh. Still, that's gonna suck for the guy who does actually live there. :-P

      --
      Slashdot is a pretty cool guy eh posts dupes and doesn't afraid of anything.
    31. Re:Q&A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      woosh, he didnt think you were actually doing that. He was following up the joke....

    32. Re:Q&A by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 1

      I think they used to be embarrassed by it but are no longer. I also think they are better at spinning it, or suppressing reporting of it, or negating it's impact (in part by say, smearing the person being civilly disobedient.)

      This is because socialist have found demanding perfect behavior a useful tactic. Note how they find the crusades "disgraceful" for example, while if you know your history you will find it very hard to criticize the first 3 or so crusades. There is zero nuance. A person is either perfect or a completely immoral asshole to democrats these days.

      They learned from muslim states to create a "shame" culture, in order to gain more power. History does have precedent on this, however, and all shame cultures have failed miserably (however sometimes taking others with them).

    33. Re:Q&A by statusbar · · Score: 1

      But if the information that I posted were true, then it would open me up to burglars taking advantage of me. Releasing this type of information about me enables criminals against me.

      People who do this to themselves deserve what they get.

      A fool and his/her money is best parted, for the last thing you want are fools with economic power!

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    34. Re:Q&A by statusbar · · Score: 1

      Good job!

      You are right, the person in #4 had been a problem for me. I was hoping for some moron to believe that #4 was my address.

      You are on the trail but not there just yet!

      What did I say that was/is true? and what is/will not be true? Who is Kim? What colour is my cat and why?

      Am I just an agent for the CIA now? Maybe the real jeff has been replaced?

      Perhaps this is all just a clever ruse to promote some product? Perhaps some special church was involved but was censored??

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    35. Re:Q&A by statusbar · · Score: 1

      Wow, small world!

      How are the new russian landlords there?

      Did you know the person who jumped from the highrise across the street to his death? Do you know the person who first dialed 911 and why?

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    36. Re:Q&A by morethanapapercert · · Score: 1

      included but not true: actual apartment #, you do not blog about your favourites.
      included and most likely not true: given your stance on freedom and privacy, perhaps you have no Xbox 360?
      included and most likely true : owns at least one Mac, and at least a Linux box and has a lot of MIDI equipment
      included, possibly true: a Windows machine, W2K or better used for playing chess, among other things.
      not included but possibly true: You likely still have an Atari ST kicking around

      Guesses as to Kim's identity: Kim Seungbeom, is scathing's or berlinergirl's real name Kim?, Kim Flint,
      In regards to the cat, no clues found in my admittedly shallow searches.

      --
      I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
    37. Re:Q&A by statusbar · · Score: 1

      pretty good.

      I've lived in many places, that was just one of them... So it was a double-trick...

      I have no xbox.

      Many things are in vmware machines now.

      There is more than one Jeff Koftinoff around, and we are not related.

      I did have a blog but only updated it once a year or so. It is still online.

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
  2. Easy Answer by SRA8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A co-workers once made the same statement to me regarding warrantless wiretapping -- why hide anything if you are not guilty. The response is simple:
    - Do you have a daughter?
    - Would you mind preparing a binder with photos of her, along with all her diary entries, emails and phone conversations and sending a copy to every police officer in the city?

    This will shut up most people. -----------
    /. Mathematics:
    +1 Insightful for encouraging killing of Muslims
    -1 Troll for Muslims responding to such messages

    1. Re:Easy Answer by CSMatt · · Score: 2, Funny

      So then what do you say if the response is "Sure. I trust the police."?

    2. Re:Easy Answer by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      Move on to the people at the Megan's Law site.

    3. Re:Easy Answer by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Inform them that it will sit on a shelf behind the desk where they process suspected rapists and child molesters.

      They'll get it then. If they don't, they're beyond help.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    4. Re:Easy Answer by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Certainly, you could eventually construct an argument with enough absurdities to convince anyone, but does that really answer the original question?

    5. Re:Easy Answer by JoshJ · · Score: 1

      In theory, I like the approach of actually going through and giving these anti-privacy people exactly what they're asking for.

    6. Re:Easy Answer by erlehmann · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I like the approach of actually going through and giving these anti-privacy people exactly what they're asking for.

      I did his at school. When I urged people to encrypt their communication, several said they had nothing to hide. So I started Wireshark and proceeded to read some of their more interesting instant messages to them and everyone who was interested.

      Kind of bothered some of them, but instead of learning crypto basics, they yelled at me. I do not understand this behaviour, can Slashdot explain ?
    7. Re:Easy Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evidently you are one of the idiots that "doesn't get it!"

    8. Re:Easy Answer by X0563511 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We can sure try!

      People are stupid!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    9. Re:Easy Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or perhaps you're falling prey to a number of intellectual fallacies, without even the capability of recognizing such a trap. For shame.

    10. Re:Easy Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still having trouble convincing my family/friends that passwords are a Good Thing (tm), and running as root is evil. I can't imagine having a real conversation involving cryptography!

    11. Re:Easy Answer by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you truly think you have nothing to hide, you must lead a terribly boring life.

    12. Re:Easy Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      anyone care to point out some crypto basics as a response to this?

    13. Re:Easy Answer by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, it does. The original logical fallacy is that if you have nothing to hide, you should not worry about snooping. The reason it is a fallacy---the reasons we should all worry about snooping are:

      1. Bad people can get the information. Even relatively trustworthy businesses have their information stolen by hackers, etc. Can we really trust the police to do a better job at information security than major internet stores? I don't think so. Some bad person snags a copy of that information, and suddenly this person's daughter has a stalker.
      2. Information can be embarrassing if seen by others even if it is not anything illegal. The things this person's daughter keeps in her diary aren't embarrassing as long as the only people who see them are her friends, but if some perv read her diary while... doing that which shall not be named... every night, that would be completely different. She'd be horrified at the very thought.

      The point was that it's not about whether you trust the police to do the right thing and not abuse the information. It's about whether you trust the police to have the most private information about yourself---information that could be extremely embarrassing or even dangerous if leaked more broadly. And of course, if you have a clue, the answer is no. People have to earn that sort of trust, and they have to earn it as individuals. Granting that level of trust blindly to any group of people, including the police, is foolish.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    14. Re:Easy Answer by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

      Admitting that you are correct implicitly requires them to accept that they are wrong.

    15. Re:Easy Answer by Jugalator · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So then what do you say if the response is "Sure. I trust the police."? That the police are humans like you?

      That the police probably really may watch Jerry Springer with a beer when they're done at work?

      It's not that they're super humans, nothing says they can actually handle the power they have in terms of this.

      I *know* that every now and then, these sort of regulations are broken at hospitals, why would the police be different?
      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    16. Re:Easy Answer by misanthrope101 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Well, yes...they meant other people. People never mean "I want to give away all of my privacy." It's just when they dismiss privacy as superfluous, they have a mental picture right then of someone, probably a minority (if they themselves are a minority, it will just be a different minority) doing something shady, probably involving kiddie porn or something similarly without redeeming merit. If we actually started randomly selecting people and posting their entire browsing/chat history online, people would just get pissed without going through the intellectual effort to articulate why that is wrong.

      They want their own privacy and that of their friends, and by extension for those they admire, but not for anyone else. The entire concept of rule of law, that we need to find rules that can apply to everyone yet still maintain law and order, is alien to them.

    17. Re:Easy Answer by JoshJ · · Score: 1

      The approach is not to teach them about cryptography. (Remember the concepts of UI design! The algorithm should be transparent to the end user!) The approach is to go "well, you could make it so that I can't do that. Here's how." and show them PGP or whatever.

    18. Re:Easy Answer by jimbojw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Pointing out security flaws is never a good idea - especially by way of demonstration. Just look at that kid with the boarding pass generator

      The unfortunate truth about vulnerabilities is that those who report them are rarely rewarded, often interrogated, and occasionally imprisoned.

    19. Re:Easy Answer by Crash+Culligan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      erlehmann: Kind of bothered some of them, but instead of learning crypto basics, they yelled at me. I do not understand this behaviour, can Slashdot explain ?

      Easily.

      They were relying on "Security Through Apathy" as their primary defense. And you, you nasty, naughty person, blew through it as if it wasn't there at all.

      That they're relying on bad people to just look the other way is, in their minds, not a problem at all. Which obviously is a problem, but not to them. From here, it's turtles all the way down.

      Okay, I doubt I cleared up anything, but at least for a moment, it was fun mocking them.

      --
      You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
    20. Re:Easy Answer by makak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just some thoughts then, to try to answer that question.

      Even though the information itself might have not been anything they had any real need to hide, your act of snooping is invasive in itself. They trusted you to behave responsibly and you failed, it's as simple as that.

      You personally seem to think that such an invasion of privacy is something bad. This means that you would (by your own standards) hurt someone just to prove a point. I'd say this is not a quality i generally admire in people (And I might very well tell that to someone doing so)

      Remember that it is never the victims fault, it is the perpetrator who performs the act. Their failure to defend against privacy intrusions does not justify your behavior anymore than my failure to take self-defense classes justifies someone assaulting me. Just because he follows up the beating by handing me a leaflet to the local gym doesn't really make it ok.

    21. Re:Easy Answer by digitig · · Score: 1

      The point was that it's not about whether you trust the police to do the right thing and not abuse the information. It's about whether you trust the police to have the most private information about yourself---information that could be extremely embarrassing or even dangerous if leaked more broadly. Actually, it's both. Private information can only safely be trusted to parties that are both competent and benign. Here in the UK we have had cases in the past of police manipulating or even fabricating evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Six) for example, so even if most of us can trust most of the police most of the time, we can't all trust all of the police all of the time (and that applies double for other agencies). But, as you say, competence in maintaining the security of the data (not to mention competence in interpretation of the data) is another important issue.
      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    22. Re:Easy Answer by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      So then what do you say if the response is "Sure. I trust the police."?
      Show them the statistics of the level of crime (especially sexual predators) among law enforcement.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    23. Re:Easy Answer by sckeener · · Score: 1

      The unfortunate truth about vulnerabilities is that those who report them are rarely rewarded, often interrogated, and occasionally imprisoned.

      That is because the person reporting the vulnerability is a troublemaker...going against the herd.

      Every society honors the live conformist and the dead troublemaker.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    24. Re:Easy Answer by Agripa · · Score: 3, Informative

      A lot of state gun control laws were passed to disarm various minorities and African descendant Americans with the thought that they would never apply to good upstanding white people. The specific ones that come to mind include limiting purchases to specific and expensive manufacturers and requiring letters from prominent citizens (bankers, store owners, etc.) attesting to the character of the purchaser which Missouri had until relatively recently. Later these laws were applied much more indiscriminately.

    25. Re:Easy Answer by mrogers · · Score: 1

      Kind of bothered some of them, but instead of learning crypto basics, they yelled at me. I do not understand this behaviour, can Slashdot explain ?

      You put them on the defensive - if you'd shown them how to use Wireshark to read each other's messages, they would have realised their own privacy was at risk without feeling threatened by you. I'm not a gun nut, but the analogy that springs to mind is this: if you want people to respect guns, teach them to shoot - don't wave a gun in their faces.

  3. Misread the title by CSMatt · · Score: 1

    I misread the title as "An Epidemic of Spoofing" and, seeing the binoculars, assumed that this was some hyped up article about how privacy advocates are destroying the credibility of the Internet.

    1. Re:Misread the title by calebt3 · · Score: 1

      Misread the title I thought we were past having to do that.
      We're supposed to be a perfect representation of a million monkeys pounding on a million keyboards by now.
  4. Nothing to hide, nothing to fear... by MacDork · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    If you don't have anything to hide, you don't have a good reason to worry about losing your privacy, right?

    I'm so glad you feel that way, I'll be right over with a camera to video you shagging the misses. We can put in online for the world to see... nothing to hide, nothing to fear, right?

  5. the immediate and obvious problem with spying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    is that when politicians have access to spy on people... who are they going to abuse it against? They're political rivals.. ohh but they'd never do that.. A President hasn't got impeached and resigned from office from doing just that..

    1. Re:the immediate and obvious problem with spying by operagost · · Score: 1

      FYI: Nixon was never impeached.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  6. Personal story by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I knew a girl who had a cop look up her name and address from her car's plate just to flirt with her. She was a bit freaked out by it.

    1. Re:Personal story by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Informative

      Before we were married, my wife used to be a secretary in a police department. When she met me she once said "well, of course I knew you must be OK because working fore the police is like having twenty big brothers. As soon as they know I am going out with someone they check his record and let me know if there is anything dodgy".

    2. Re:Personal story by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      FYI if you have vanity license plates that say something interesting, your plates are probably run through the police computer several times a day by board cops. No, I will not tell you how I know this.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    3. Re:Personal story by idontgno · · Score: 1

      I bet your vanity plate "DIE PIG" attracted lots of law enforcement interest.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    4. Re:Personal story by dave562 · · Score: 1

      What are board cops? Lifeguards? Pigs who hassle skaters?

  7. Oh come now... by Pyrion · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who the hell is going to believe that he lost his bid for re-election because he was frequently delinquent in paying his utility bills?

    Bear in mind that we live in a nation that's over nine trillion dollars in debt. Whoever believes horseshit like the above has no sense of scale.

    --
    "There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.
    1. Re:Oh come now... by Kierthos · · Score: 1

      Hey, it all depends. If it was a close race before the info got leaked, that may have changed a few voters minds. It may not have been the sole reason, sure... but it could influence some voters.

      But you never know what voters will do. One of the city councilmen in the city I live in was shown to have been delinquent in paying property taxes and business taxes (as in "oops, last year's taxes weren't paid, and this year's are late"), and he still got re-elected.

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    2. Re:Oh come now... by RodgerDodger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not knowing how that information was used, it's hard to say. OTH, if, say, his opponent was portraying him as being disorganised and incompetent, having the fact that you can't even keep track of when to pay your gas bill may be yet another nail in the coffin. Certainly, a good attack campaign could take that information and run with it.

      --
      "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
    3. Re:Oh come now... by amplt1337 · · Score: 1

      Who the hell is going to believe that he lost his bid for re-election because he was frequently delinquent in paying his utility bills?

      Bear in mind that we live in a nation that's over nine trillion dollars in debt. Whoever believes horseshit like the above has no sense of scale.
      ...because obviously voters never use higher standards for public officials than for themselves.

      --
      Freedom isn't free; its price is the well-being of others.
    4. Re:Oh come now... by Slak · · Score: 1

      I'm reminded of the new-old saying:

      If you owe $1,000 and can't pay it's your problem
      If you owe $1,000,000 and can't pay it's the bank's problem
      If you owe $1,000,000,000 and can't pay it's everyone's problem

      -Slak

  8. Conform Citizen! by stox · · Score: 1

    There is nothing to worry about, we are only here to help you.

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    1. Re:Conform Citizen! by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sir, I'm sure the 25 million people in the UK whose child benefit records were lost all agree with you, sir!

      The really insidious thing about something like that is that it's almost impossible to prove that harm came from it. Anecdotal evidence might suggest that if such data did fall into criminal hands then a significant number of those people will now be victims of identity theft or some related crime. Past experience might suggest that given the high value the criminal world would place on such a rich source of data, they will have taken steps to acquire it. But can anyone prove it? Probably not.

      And what that means is that while the government who screwed up can publicly wash their hands and cry "no harm, no foul", the reality is that 25,000,000 people with nothing to hide now have something to fear.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  9. Encrypted files? by Bananatree3 · · Score: 1

    Darned if I can't find the link, but I remember reading about people being required to turn over their encryption keys to police in "routine" checks, even though there was no evidence of wrongdoing. If they refused to do so they were charged with something, and I think this was at the boarder or something similar.

    1. Re:Encrypted files? by quanticle · · Score: 1

      The Supreme Court has upheld the right of Customs to confiscate laptops and other electronic devices at the border without any probable cause. I don't know if they can force you to give up encryption keys to the laptop, but that might be what you're thinking of.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    2. Re:Encrypted files? by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 3, Informative

      You don't have to give them the keys. Then again, they don't have to let you in the country. And if they do let you in, they'll probably never give the laptop back.

      In any event, I read one article about a girl who did give them everything they wanted. This was years ago and she never got her laptop back anyway...

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    3. Re:Encrypted files? by fmobus · · Score: 1

      Can an US citizen be denied entry in USA? Is this possible at all?

    4. Re:Encrypted files? by dpilot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      According to the current meme, when you're in Customs, you're in legal limbo.

      You're not in the origination country, you're not in the destination country, so you have no rights of either location. You have exactly the rights that the Customs people choose to give you. They have absolute power, though they generally don't abuse that, because the Press has absolute power, too. (again, according to the current meme)

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    5. Re:Encrypted files? by operagost · · Score: 1

      meme=horseshit. Customs is sovereign territory of the country who employs it. This means US citizens are not to be barred entry under unlawful circumstances.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    6. Re:Encrypted files? by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Maybe your "meme=horsesh*t" is correct, but the current administration has been pulling a lot of fast ones. I've seen references that the current administration believes that "Customs is Limbo" and acts accordingly. I'd just as soon not be the one to try and prove them wrong.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  10. Evil corporations by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 3, Funny

    Why must evil corporations go out of their way to violate the privacy of others? I would never do such a thing. Now excuse me, for I have some other things to do today, such as this and this. Oh, and I have a date tonight and I want to get to know her. I even picked the movie!

  11. Causalitie's unfair. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "One striking example involves now ex-Mayor of Milwaukee Marvin Pratt, who had a pattern of being late paying his heating bills. This fact was leaked to the media by a utility worker and may have led to Pratt's losing a bid for re-election. "

    It can also lead to problems with getting and retaining good credit.

    1. Re:Causalitie's unfair. by Evolt's+RonL. · · Score: 1

      Not really.

      In the old days, AT&T (and, I suspect, other utility companies) had a separate credit class code they used for local bigwigs and politicians.

      That code was used to keep those people from getting the "Pay up or we'll cut off your service" calls ... no matter whether they paid their bills or not. I seriously doubt any of that was reported to any credit service either, so there isn't going to be any impact to their credit rating.

  12. What I like to do by Xenkar · · Score: 4, Funny

    What I like to do to those "If you have nothing to hide" people is tell them the truth. I make sure to tell them about all of the weird fetishes I wank off to, my thoughts on the whole "don't eat your own boogers" conspiracy, and whatever twisted thoughts are going through my mind at the moment.

    My right to privacy isn't for my sake, it is for everyone else. Their fragile minds can't handle the onslaught of awkwardness I bring down upon them.

  13. Perfect response to "nothing to hide" people: by erlehmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Everyone poops, but it takes a special person to do it in public."

    (Dunno where I read it.)

    1. Re:Perfect response to "nothing to hide" people: by roman_mir · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Perfect response to "nothing to hide" people: by Daimanta · · Score: 1

      Parent links to shock video. Mod down.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
  14. There's a couple of reasons. by thezig2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First, things that are legal are not always socially acceptable. Your weekend bar escapades and porn habits are probably quite legal, but it may not be in your best interests for the outside world to know about your attraction to midget transvestites.

    Secondly, and more importantly, things that are legal and/or acceptable now might not be in the future. Look at drug use, for example. There was no point in hiding it back in the 70's, because "everybody did it", and now it's coming back to haunt people (like politicians). People shouldn't be scrutinized because they have the brains to foresee that stuff they're doing today might bite them in the ass later.
    1. Re:There's a couple of reasons. by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      If you are relying on security through obscurity, then you'll eventually get bitten. If you are getting stupid in the club, eventually people will find out.

      Not that I'm saying we should tell everyone everything; it's just that if you do something in public, people will blog it.

      Also, I really don't see past drug use haunting anyone. GWB did coke and even had a DUI. No one really gives a shit. It's when a politician tries to hide that it becomes an issue.

      If you are open and honest about your dealings, then you'll never get blindsided.

      However, being open and honest *should* be a personal choice. If I choose to use the same screen name on 50 web sites, that's my choice. If you use an annonymizer and bugmenot, that's your choice. No one should be *forced* to lay their life book open for everyone to see...

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
  15. knowledge is power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    knowledge is power. If you give someone too much power(knowledge) they will eventually abuse it.

    1. Re:knowledge is power by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 2, Funny

      "All power corrupts, absolute power ...is even more fun" -- Simon Travaglia (BOFH)

  16. Nothing to hide? by bogeskov · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I may have nothing to hide, but I do have a lot to loose.

    --

    1. Re:Nothing to hide? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a lot to loose? Then hurry up and set it free!

    2. Re:Nothing to hide? by maxume · · Score: 1

      What? Are you trying to correct the usage of 'losing' in the summary? It's already correct.

      Did I miss something? Are you making some other point?

      Who let the all the people unable to make this distinction loose on the internet? Why are there so many? Why are there so many who insist on making the correction in the wrong direction?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  17. devil's advocate by LodCrappo · · Score: 0

    i'll admit right now that i didnt rtfa. but.. working on the premise is that some guy lost an election because the public found out he doesn't pay bills on time, isn't it possible that if everyone's bill paying habits were public knowledge that his behavior would have been much less interesting or exceptional? I'd bet there are tons of people in all walks of life that have for whatever reason failed to pay bills on time, but since that knowledge is not public this guy stands out. so maybe the real problem is the privacy of everyone elses habits, not that his were exposed.

    --
    -Lod
    1. Re:devil's advocate by digitrev · · Score: 1

      That argument only works in your theoretical world where no one wants privacy. Look up at the beginning of the discussion, say at here, to see the problem with your reasoning.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
  18. Good ! by aepervius · · Score: 1

    I make sure to tell them about all of the weird fetishes I wank off to.

    If you have nothing to hide...

    Now let me make some popcorn up for us, and tell us more about your weird fetishes you wank on :).

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  19. How to answer this questions by timmarhy · · Score: 1
    "yes i do have shit to hide, no it doesn't mean i've done anything wrong or that you should be allowed to know"

    why is this concept hard to grasp?

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  20. I have nothing to hide either... by Swiftouch · · Score: 1

    They are right...those who say that they have nothing to hide. There is privacy, data security and physical security. Data security is keeping data safe that could be used maliciously. And then there is privacy that is personal info about habits and the character of a person. I believe in secure data and physical security of a building, parking lot, safety deposit box, etc, but I don't believe in privacy. If you are a celebrity, you better be willing to blow off the intrusions because you KNOW people are going to intrude. People can be downright rude, mean and nasty.( they can also be good, but honestly the vast majority of us are somewhere in between and somewhat unpredictable at times) If you're running for mayor and you have trouble paying your power bill there's no way in hell I'd vote for you. So yes, that could have swayed a number of votes. In this case it was both a privacy and a data security breach to a point. It wasn't an actual breach of data but a violation of ethics in using data that the employee had access to in a malicious way. I do NOT support that kind of ethics violating behavior and the employee should be fired or at least disciplined harshly. But on the other hand the person running for mayor should have had the good sense to pay his bills on-time. Shouldn't our leaders be held to a higher standard? Hopefully now after reading this story we will do a couple things. 1. Not put ourselves in a situation to get fired by using secure data in an illegal way. 2. Not steal, cheat, or lie period at anything. At one point in my life I felt it was alright to lie to get my way in minor areas of my life. Gradually I've eliminated lying altogether because I realized that lying was getting the better of me and I was lying more and more about things to cover up my laziness. It's better to tell the truth no matter the harshness of the reality. Humans use lying to achieve lazy goals that they don't sometimes consciously think about. And they also tend to over exaggerate at times as well. Which is another form of lying. If we have done our best we should never think it's the right thing to do or to even consider lying in order to make another person happy. That's all i have to say. Thanks for reading. Now go and do the right thing.

  21. Here He Comes To Save The Day by hyades1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm pretty sure the video my girlfriend made of me chasing her around the apartment dressed as Captain Cocktastic doesn't actually violate any laws (There's nothing on the books in Canada about good taste as far as I know).

    On the other hand, I doubt whether having it posted on the internet would help my political career all that much, if I had one. Unless I was running in Toronto/Rosedale, of course.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:Here He Comes To Save The Day by u-235-sentinel · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure the video my girlfriend made of me chasing her around the apartment dressed as Captain Cocktastic doesn't actually violate any laws (There's nothing on the books in Canada about good taste as far as I know).

      On the other hand, I doubt whether having it posted on the internet would help my political career all that much, if I had one. Unless I was running in Toronto/Rosedale, of course.


      Makes sense. Look at what happened in the US to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Some of the questions were just unreal!!

      Yeah I know what they were looking for. Still it was below good taste IMO.

      We all have something to hide. We're Human Beings :-)

      --
      Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
  22. Nothing New by logicnazi · · Score: 0

    I think it's ironic that this is being described as a consequence of vast computer databases. While it's probably true that computers have increased the incidence of curiosity snooping by making it less trouble to look up records I suspect this sort of thing has been going on forever. The real contribution of computers is to record access and expose the snooping.

    How seriously to take this and what can be done about it are both interesting questions. Fundamentally it's a difficult problem because there is no obvious moral barrier that people cross when they engage in this behavior. I mean suppose you work at the utility and regularly pull up client's records for valid purposes. It isn't going to seem like a harm to anyone to pull up one more record. I mean does it really make a difference that you pulled up the mayor's form out of curiosity rather than for a business reason? After all it was just luck that you weren't assigned to deal with that record anyway. Worse given the difficulty in preciscely definining what you want to prevent it makes it hard to prevent with mandatory access controls.

    Now I share the immediate intuition that something is bad about these voyeristic breaches of privacy but I can't exactly put my finger on what if anything is wrong with it. True, someone might use the information to my detriment (share it etc..) but that's equally true about anyone viewing my information whether voyeuristicly or not. I mean consider two companies A and B. Company A's policies mean that in the normal course of buisness only one person will ever examine your data but someone at company A is curious so another person peeks at your information. On the other hand company B has a policy where each month they assign each of their customer service reps to review a random selection of accounts for errors so after the course of 20 years a fairly large number of people have thumbed through your file. To the extent that we want to conceal information or avoid identity theft the company that has more legitimate reasons to examine your data may very well be a higher risk than the one that lets the voyeur look at your recrods. So is it snooping that we want to eliminate or do we want to minimize access more generally?

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

  23. Argument all ready debunked... by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ... again and again and again and ...

    I'm always amazed just how often this and other nonsense comes up. Then I remember that today's people have attention spans of chronically depressed Lemmings and it all comes rushing back... along with that deep sickening sinking feeling.

    At any rate, here's a good essay (found it linked to on Schneier's blog) that destroys the argument:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565

    Just used it on my parents a couple days ago. Spread it around!

    1. Re:Argument all ready debunked... by SportyGeek · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. This is a great piece and I was going to post if myself if it weren't for my tardiness.

    2. Re:Argument all ready debunked... by d3m0nCr4t · · Score: 1

      Any chance on a mirror of some kind ? The link seems to be slashdotted (they didn't see that one coming). ;)

    3. Re:Argument all ready debunked... by duncan99 · · Score: 1

      Oh, that's nice. In order to download a paper debunking this, I have to sign up for an account on their website. Now, why would I want to do that? And please, whatever you do, don't say: "Why do you object to giving us your email, if you have nothing to hide..."

    4. Re:Argument all ready debunked... by dave562 · · Score: 1

      No you don't. I downloaded it just fine.

  24. It's not really surprising... by Jugalator · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason privacy safeguards need to be in place is because the people working at the IRS and other organizations are just regular people too. They are not "better" at handling power than anyone else.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    1. Re:It's not really surprising... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What really astounds me in all these discussions about privacy vs. snooping is this:

      it's not only about what will happen with your data now, but it is about what will happen with society in the future.

      If we allow a totalitarian-level watch regime installed on us, pretty soon people liking this sort of power are going to go for community service / policing / politics just to have access to these tools.

      Right now it just isnt't sexy for most power-hungry wackos to go into politics in our democracies, but this will change dramatically once we install ready-to-use snooping and oppression instruments. A lot of people will go into public service and politics to use them small scale, and finally someone will think: hey, I can use this to get me to the top once and for all, eh, ever.

      No amount of "we want your info just to protect you" will protect you from future misuse by coming beneficiaries of this information, however trustworthy the original proposer may have been.

      And that's why every bit we give in to snooping is a bit in the direction of of a dictatorial state.

  25. The case for privacy and anonymity by Ferret55 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have a good reason to worry about losing your privacy?"

    If a person is an upstanding member of the community that has done nothing wrong in any way, is law abiding, upright, honest and noncontroversial in their actions why should (s)he worry about revealing everything there is to know about (her)himself? Why should this person's privacy be protected? some may assert that the government should be allowed to distribute personal records about people so that they can do their jobs better and make crime more difficult. Right? WRONG! Privacy and its onus on the individual is misplaced and misguided. Privacy and anonymity is to ensure that people are protected from those with malicious intent, privacy and anonymity is never intended to help a person break the law. This is the case people use against privacy.

    Privacy and anonymity is not to protect people so they can commit crimes, it is to protect the individual from the many criminal and malicious elements, whether they be political, criminal, mundane or otherwise.

    Privacy protects against embarresment and shame of personal secrets, these may be medical ailments (such as that real severe case of haemorroids you got several years ago) and be through no fault of your own, or perhaps the stigma of a family member(goddamn you Uncle Joe! why did he have to do that to the poor horse, again, and again, and again!) with a criminal history or to protect against discrimination (ie. you're too old, fat, black, white, asian, feminine, masculine, ugly, beautiful... whoops maybe not that last one).

    Anonymity protects free speech and future reprisals connected with said free speech being employed.

    Anonymity protects whistle blowers that see others commiting a crime and allows the person to do the right thing and report the crime safely without jeopardising their job security or become victimised as a result of their actions. (wikileaks yeah!)

    Privacy and anonymity protects against Identity theft, the act of stealing another persons identiy can devastate a persons credit history, with resolutions being either difficult or even impossible.

    Privacy and anonymity can insulate an individual against premeditated crimes like stalking, premeditated rape or assault or other such crimes, can all be prevented it the person wishing to commit a crime against a person they have met either casually or online are not able to look up the persons personal details in the future and track them down.

    Privacy protects against harassment either from other individuals or from companies that make irritating phone calls or send personalised junk mail. If privacy and anonymity were respected we WOULDN'T NEED "do not call lists" or white/black lists! To clarify, cold canvassing is a different story but usually a purchasers identity is bought for a business and they use that to profile and selectively call those most likely to be interested in a product. This happens ALOT.

    Privacy and anonymity protects an individual from persons in high office in government that may target a particular individual or group for political reasons.

    It doesn't matter who it is, privacy and anonymity should be respected by all individuals, groups, agents, organisations, companies and governments, only you can be trusted fully with your personal details and all the above mentioned should should respect the privacy of others and only release personal information about a person with their consent. In a world that hardly respects privacy to begin with, we have everything to hide. For a law abiding citizen that just wants to live their life their own way ALL the above resonings for privacy and anonymity apply!

  26. Nothing to hide by jandersen · · Score: 1

    We all need privacy - I mean, would you feel comfortable with knowing that there might be a camera in your bedroom? Or in your bathroom? There has to be a limit somewhere, a space where can be alone. Some people may not mind crapping in public (this was apparently what the Romans did, more or less), or knowing that their minds could be read electronically (the technology to do so is getting closer each day); but having a safe haven somewhere is a fundamental need for all living creatures, I think.

    So, "I have nothing to hide" is simply not true. I have lots to hide, and I would prefer to have a say in what I have to reveal to others, if it's not too much trouble.

  27. My response... by TFer_Atvar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Mind if I follow you into the bathroom?

    1. Re:My response... by cjb658 · · Score: 1

      Or "mind if I hide in the closet while you're making love to your woman? Oh come on, I'll be quiet! You won't even know I'm there!"

    2. Re:My response... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Not at all... and please- sit on the toilet while I do my business.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  28. Two personal examples by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Some years ago, I had a very strange medical problem. A very severe auto-immune response. The doctors ran through the gamut. Rheumatoid Arthritis, Rheumatic fever, Lupus, Lyme's Disease, Lymphoma, Steve Johnson syndrome, eventually long shots, like HIV, advanced STDs. Nothing, nadda, zilch.

    Eventually it was concluded it was a rare allergic reaction, just the right combination of things.

    Well, about 3 weeks after the hospitalization, guess what comes in the mail?, a big splashy vivid orange package for fucking Rituxan (a lymphoma/arthritis medication). Is that any of my neighbors fucking business? No it's not.

    A far more insidious (in my book) example. I racked up some debt taking care of my mother when she was dying. Anyway, for Valentine's, I send my girlfriend flowers at her work. Three days later, guess what? Creditors calling her work, asking for my girlfriend, and asking about my whereabouts. When asked how they got this number, they replied "We heard you were dating".

    Outside of that one credit card transaction, there was no other paper trail connection to us otherwise, anywhere on earth. It's obvious they used the records to call her and harass her at work. That's not fucking right.

    Now let's extrapolate that. Let's say I was a married or taken man, and that was not my wife? Would they have the right to potentially destroy a family or otherwise cause such destruction in someone's life?

    Sure, some people will say, they would be getting what they deserved, but it misses the point, I'm of the mind that if business is allowed to get that personal, then it's a two way street, including grievous, personal harm in return.

    1. Re:Two personal examples by balloonhead · · Score: 1

      it's never lupus

      --
      This idea was invented by Shampoo.
    2. Re:Two personal examples by base3 · · Score: 2

      If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would want to know what credit card company misused that information (not that they don't all probably do it, but I'd just as soon avoid the one that definitely did it).

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  29. the "nothing to hide" argument by axx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    On this subject, this was posted last summer, so some of you probably read it. Quite worth the read though, it makes valid points.

    "I have nothing to hide" and other misunderstandings of privacy
    http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/10/2054219

    --
    No wit here.
    1. Re:the "nothing to hide" argument by toarney · · Score: 1

      I agree. Very much worth the read.
      Print it out, and give it to someone else to read too.
      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565

  30. Lead by example..? by phelix_da_kat · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Definitely.. The arguement that you should have "nothing to hide" is not the point.. the example above of making your daughter's (well anyones diary) available is a good example. It may not be incriminating, but it is private (and hence potentially embarrassing to that person). Also, if these proponents of "nothing to hide" are so keen, why don't they put up their WHOLE life stories and personal details on MySpace/Facebook and see what happens (not that I have anything against these sites - apart from the stories of privacy and misuse of data by 3rd parties). The fact that a 3rd party can misuse this information is terrifying.. its like a divide between those who can snoop versus those who cannot. If a cop said to you, "oh you don't need a lawyer, you have nothing to hide".. would you? Even if you are not guilty, you would still want a lawyer to make sure due process is carried out and the cop is not "bending the rules".. The thing is, everyone has something to hide - it does not mean its wrong..

  31. People are the worst... by SystematicPsycho · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm an Oracle DBA and from what I've seen sometimes people don't even know they're breaking the law. The worst case of data theft without people knowing is when they take an export of production data to development for testing. You're not allowed to do that! I've seen organisations not even know what data they have or that it should be audited. And when it was audited the level of auditing was totally insufficient. Mainly because some clown set it up and didn't understand the requirements from management, or management let some clown set it up and didn't understand the requirements themselves but were glad to hear "it has auditing enabled".

    I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way but since alot of companies have been outsourcing their systems to India data theft has increased (google for 'inda data theft'). for example - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/05/india_exposed/

    Heh, I saw someone on the Oracle forums post a question, "how do I take an export of Production to import to my home PC" and judging by the name... and he even mentioned he's allowed?!
    http://forums.oracle.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=2289794&#2289794

    --
    Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
  32. now look what you've done.... by Chrisq · · Score: 0, Troll

    These are slashdot posters. You will probably come back to find that Kim has been shut in the utility room and the cat has been raped.

  33. Great by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    Lets go with mandatory GPS implants then

  34. Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong. You put them in the position of being proved wrong by a nerd. Surprised they aren't happy? (Written by a nerd who has come to learn that that a discussion on quantum randomness and free-will is not what everyone looks for on a first date!)

    1. Re:Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong by Stanislav_J · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Kind of bothered some of them, but instead of learning crypto basics, they yelled at me. I do not understand this behaviour...

      Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong. You put them in the position of being proved wrong by a nerd. Surprised they aren't happy?

      It's the difference between the few souls in this world who think rationally (like the nerd) and most of humanity which tends to let emotion rule the day (like those students).

      I am in the former category. And I do not mind being proven wrong. In fact, I welcome it. I want to understand life, the universe and everything a little better each day, and the clearer and better informed my thinking, the more useful and accurate my knowledge becomes.

      Many people, however, seem to have a huge emotional stake in being "right." They cannot possibly begin to admit the thought that they might be wrong -- I dunno, maybe it's a basic self-esteem thing. That's why almost a decade into the 21st Century, we still have people who believe such things as the universe being created in 6 days, or that the moon landings were faked, or that Barry Bonds just worked out a lot.

      My experience has been that most discussions of this sort go something like this:

      Other guy (we'll call him "Joe") states a misinformed opinion.

      I show Joe the error of his argument and point out his factual errors.

      Joe pauses, then merely repeats the same line of "reasoning." (The last two steps may loop several times in succession with Joe becoming more and more flustered.)

      Joe at some point abandons any pretense of rational argument and, having quickly exhausted his arsenal, starts to use phrases like "you just don't understand" or "that's just the way it is" or the like. (Optional phrases include "But God says it, so I believe it" or "Well, that's what my mother taught me -- are you calling my mother a liar?")

      Final phase has Joe (a)attacking my character and the circumstances of my birth, usually accompanied by various words and phrases on the FCC's no-no list.

      This is why it does not pay to argue about anything with anyone. When warning signs of the early phases of the above conversation begin to appear, quickly change the subject. When someone prefers to wallow in ignorance, there is little you can do. Pressing the issue will just make you an asshole in their eyes, and in extreme cases may result in the proverbial and venerable knuckle-sandwich being applied to your nose.

      --
      "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
    2. Re:Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Written by a nerd who has come to learn that that a discussion on quantum randomness and free-will is not what everyone looks for on a first date!)

      Let me give you a little hint. With very few exceptions, discussions on free-will are never to be undertaken with members of the female persuasion.

      You may try "quantum randomness" as you desire. Free will will get you killed every time.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 1

      Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong. You put them in the position of being proved wrong by a nerd. Surprised they aren't happy? (Written by a nerd who has come to learn that that a discussion on quantum randomness and free-will is not what everyone looks for on a first date!)

      I'm glad they're not happy; sucks to be them for a change. I mean doesn't everybody like sticking it to "The Man"?

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    4. Re:Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong by operagost · · Score: 1

      That's why almost a decade into the 21st Century, we still have people who believe such things as the universe being created in 6 days
      Considering that no one "knows" how the universe was created, a duration of six days is just about as good as any other. When the "big bang" theory was in vogue, I read lots of time lines where the universe expanded from a geometric point to billions of light-years across in mere seconds.
      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    5. Re:Nobody likes a Nerd, or to be proved wrong by Stanislav_J · · Score: 1

      Considering that no one "knows" how the universe was created, a duration of six days is just about as good as any other. When the "big bang" theory was in vogue, I read lots of time lines where the universe expanded from a geometric point to billions of light-years across in mere seconds.

      Regardless of the duration involved, I am contrasting the difference between a calculated supposition based on scientific inquiry as opposed to a firm belief in something written millenia ago in a non-scientific religious book.

      --
      "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
  35. Some do it right, though by cheros · · Score: 1

    I've been involved in testing a data scrambled for a European bank for exactly that purpose. They used a product that did a reasonable job, and with a few small changes we ensured that pattern analysis to rebuild the original source wouldn't work.

    I've also dealt with both gov and financial people that understood the dangers of unauthorised access, some wnet so far as to insist on checking audit was correctly, which is IMHO a very intelligent form of self preservation - few realise that logging can also prove that you did NOT do it, a sure boon for the current trend of considering someone guilty until they prove themselves innocent..

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  36. A Word on Privacy and Human Dignity... by flajann · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The problem with having private details of your life exposed are multifarious. You can't always expect to know how the information may be used against you in the future.

    One case in point that I often beat to death (among those who know me, of course!) is the case in California, where "Megan's Law" resulted in quite a few gays being put on the list because they were considered "sexual offenders" by an earlier set of laws, and their names remained in files sitting around in the office of the bureaucrats for years.

    Do we all have stuff to hide? Yes! But what is wrong with that? Just because we have stuff to hide doesn't mean that it's "illegal" -- just that we don't want the entire world knowing about it as all. People tend to judge you on the basis of their own morality, and their own expectations. If you happen to simply not "fit in", you could be harassed by the very private information on yourself were it to be exposed.

    So the whole sneaky argument of "do you have anything to hide" becomes a semantic one, one in which we all

    privately answer "yes" to, but because of the implication we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    Even the very question is in and of itself an invasion into our privacy. That very question turns privacy upside down and invites further inquiry. Instead, the question should be answered with a question -- the same question -- thrown back at the person asking it. And if said person says "no", then start asking that person really private questions and see how they respond. Questions like, "do you do cunninglingus with your wife" or similar. That act, by the way, is still considered illegal in some states!

    So, the truth is, if you are human at all, you have something to hide. That is nothing to be ashamed of. There is nothing wrong with that. Privacy, by its very definition, is all about "hiding" details of your life you don't wish the world to know -- and of course, is nobody's business, anyway.

    So, really, the question is really saying "Do you have anything to be private about", and nearly everyone of course will answer "yes" to that. If you have something you wish to keep private, then you have something you wish to keep hidden. Period.

    1. Re:A Word on Privacy and Human Dignity... by Yert · · Score: 1

      My step-dad is former DEA, and occasionally, we'd get into some pretty heated arguments about privacy, until one day, he said "I have nothing to hide." and I replied with "Ok. How big is your penis?" He hasn't brought it up since.

      --
      Truck driver, plumber, Linux systems engineer.
  37. Easy Example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have a family member that works for an insurance company and she uses the companies gov database access for date screening.

  38. Compartmentalisation and Shrouding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One database issue I've thought about lately is due diligence in hiring. If a person submits a resume, that resume should be completely parsed and stored in a database and the original destroyed by someone who has no contact with anyone involved in checking data, verifying the data or analyzing the data. While all the data should (in theory) be verified, doing so without historical databases is difficult. Most of this verification probably does not need to be done in a way where the identity of the person the information is about.

    For instance, say there is an address in a resume. Did that address exist at the time the resume said it did? If the address is for a business, did the business reside at that address when it said it did. If there is a phone number associated with an address, was that association in effect when the resume said it did?

    If electronic databases are available, all of this can be done by program. It may be possible to manually do a bunch of this, but most organizations wouldn't prefer to do things that way. But in a manual verification, each piece of information needs to be tagged in some way with the identity of the person who submitted it. This could easily be some random string made up when the information is checked out, and is only used again to check in the results of the verification. After that, this random string is forgotten/destroyed.

    If all of the anonymous information in a resume checks out, then a person starts to verify information that requires the person's identity. Did they actually take the course specified at the time they said they did? The check-out/check-in of the data from a database works better, as the view needed only needs to consider the data in question, not the entire record. And it is better done as, check all the persons taking courses at institution A; instead of checking all the courses done by person A. Of course, the institution in question can help in shrouding data by assigning random strings to organizations seeking to check information that act as one-time student IDs. The checks for registration are then done against the shrouded IDs.

  39. About the Internal Revenue Service by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 5, Informative

    I note that the summary feels the need to mention the IRS, even though the IRS had only a brief paragraph in the article saying they had taken action against some snoopers. Some things you should know about the situation at the IRS:

    The IRS was misused by Richard Nixon. Congress responded with certain privacy protections aimed right at the agency. As a reslut, for the last 30 years or so the IRS has been better than most places when it comes to snooping. Not perfect, but generally ahead of the curve.

    25-30 years ago, when online data was just becoming ubiquitous within the agency but auditing protocols were laughable, snooping was more common. Nowadays, things have swung the other direction. Some, particularly the Union, would say too far. Currently, if you work at a Taxpayer Assistance Center helping the public, it's entirely possible that an investigation will be triggered when you assist someone (a complete stranger to you) who, it turns out, happens to live in your apartment block or your subdivision (along with a few thousand other people). The data mining that goes on, matching people's database accesses with any possible connection with their lives, is thorough to the point of ridiculousness. I have no doubt that the majority of people at the IRS who snoop get caught. I would not be surprised if the 219 disciplinary actions referred to in the article were 99%-plus of the perpetrators in the reported time period.

    And the penalties are *harsh*. Disciplinary actions are taken for inadverdent accesses. Deliberate accesses get you fired. Flagrant deliberate accesses result in jail time. Yes, jail time. I've seen employees hauled out in handcuffs for this stuff. (I've also seen a flagrantly deliberate access case that resulted in jail time that was a total miscarriage of justice. The perp was previously a rising star as an Officer. She was a wonderful young woman. Then, she had a major stroke and lay on the floor of her apartment for three days over a weekend before she was found. Afterwards, her mental capacity was severely reduced and she could no longer do the Officer job, so she was moved to a support position. The organization really tried to keep her employed so she could keep her health insurance. People really went out on a limb for her, even though if you knew her before and after, you could have easily concluded that she should have left the Agency on a disability retirement. Given her reduced mental abilities, it just didn't click in her mind that it was a serious violation of the law to look up the tax records of every one of her coworkers so she could compile a list of their birthdays so she could plan parties. She was that far gone. When she was prosecuted, her lawyer was strictly forbidden by her family from using any sort of diminished capacity defense. They were too embarrassed that their superstar child had become...well...what she had become. They preferred she go to prison rather being forced to publicly admit they had a less-than-perfect daughter. So she went to prison for a while, lost any shot at a disability pension, and God only knows whatever became of her. It was rumored that her parents took her back to Korea but I never found out for sure.)

    Finally, why the big increase in incidents? Simple. Up until about 7 years ago, the IRS was a very convenient political punching bag. Politicos loved to cut funding to the IRS because that always played well with the constituency. As a result, the agency hired damn near nobody for about 15 years, from the mid-1980s to about 2000. Recently, though, we've started hiring in droves. The newbies, who don't yet appreciate the culture and public service mission of the agency, are doing things they figure no one will care about. They're getting caught. That's a good thing.

    219 disciplinary actions out of about 100,000 employees is, in the real world, pretty damn good.

    Yes, I work for the IRS. No, this is not official communication; it represents my personal feelings only.

    1. Re:About the Internal Revenue Service by deputycleric · · Score: 1

      You can't stop all data leakage, but restrictions on data, and protected audit trails of who's looked at it, are a very good start. I assume the govt can trace anything I say online back to the "real me" if it wants to, and that's OK. I post under a pseudonym to avoid embarassing my employers, friends and co-workers, not out of any belief it actually provides real anonymity. HOWEVER... it is the govt's responsibility to implement the limits above. Access to data is on a "need-to-know" basis only, and auditable. "Need to know" should be the smallest pool possible. This is why sharing data between police depts, and police and FBI, freely, broadly and without restriction, would be a horrible disaster. All it takes is ONE corrupt cop somewhere, and he can access and/or sell data about anyone in the country, to anyone. Very useful for buyers of that information to trace, harass, or possibly kill people they don't like. If such data will be shared, it should be on an individual basis, with a well-defined request process involving multiple reviews and approvals. Yes, this adds some delay, but the alternative is the horror just described. When it comes to public disclosure of personal data, however, ANY leak is intolerable. Companies and the govt certainly have access to data about me, but when that data leaks out into the public, then the person responsible needs to be punished -- a fine, termination, or jail time. There needs to be a strong deterrent against "accidental" release of embarassing personal information. "Oops, sorry, heh heh" should not be the limits of what we expect from the responsible party.

  40. Camoflage by astralan · · Score: 1

    It is of my opinion that the .gov can pretty much do what it wants until gets caught. All through history we hear about "illegal" this or that. The .gov takes the stand: "Better to do and ask forgiveness later". If it wants to find something out, it will.
    The other side to this is something learned through nature: Don't draw attention. In some cases that is impossible. You could be driving in traffic and someone nails you from behind. Bam, karma stepping in. That aside though, it is possible to do what you want as long as you have a broader vision of how what you do affects your surroundings. When you keep that in mind, you can measure your activities.
    No, I don't really have anything to hide; but Still, I don't go out into public and willingly strip either.

  41. Sheeple by sheepofblue · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As long as sheeple sign up for 'customer appreciation' cards and willingly respond when asked for a phone number at places like Worst Buy the companies will continue to collect the information. It is profitable to track your sheeple for later shearing. It is not profitable to police your employees abuse of your sheeple under the current system. So this should be no surprise to anyone. The only way to combat this as an individual is to refuse to provide data and provide bad data that screws up the database whenever possible (have 6 cards if you must have one). Reduce the profitability of the shearing they plan. Or if the lady working the register is hot reply only if I get your phone number also :-)

    1. Re:Sheeple by mattdev121 · · Score: 1

      The only way to combat this as an individual is to refuse to provide data and provide bad data that screws up the database
      I try to, but all I get is blank stares when I say my phone number is 528-555-9823;DROP TABLE custinfo;
      --
      mattdev@server$ touch /dev/genitals
      cannot touch `/dev/genitals': Permission denied
  42. Of course I got stuff to hide by Vexorian · · Score: 1

    Meh, it is not illegal to have secrets.

    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  43. Behave like a black hat, get the same treatment. by soren100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I did his at school. When I urged people to encrypt their communication, several said they had nothing to hide. So I started Wireshark and proceeded to read some of their more interesting instant messages to them and everyone who was interested.

    Kind of bothered some of them, but instead of learning crypto basics, they yelled at me. I do not understand this behaviour, can Slashdot explain ? It's the difference between explaining to someone that their bedroom window is easily viewable at night, and being the person actually looking in that bedroom window at night, pounding on it when they are naked.

    You have a well-meaning intention, but you are causing the exact harm you wished them to avoid. And they are doing to you what they would have done to anyone else who would have read their "interesting" messages to "everyone who was interested". You're not helping them at all. If you had instead asked their permission ahead of time to do what you were planning to do, read the messages only to them, and shown them how easy it was to read the messages with Wireshark, they would probably have been a lot nicer, and would not have yelled at you since you told them ahead of time what you would be doing and they gave you permission, and you didn't "harm" them or their reputation.

      Even if they still couldn't be bothered to run encryption, they would now be doing an accurate risk assessment, and might keep more incriminating details out of their messages.
  44. check out the movie "the lives of others"... by big_paul76 · · Score: 1

    Here, here.

    If you haven't seen it, check out the movie "the lives of others", it's about the stasi in the former east germany.

    There's one beautiful scene where the secret police are breaking into a guy's apartment to wire the place. The secret police realize that the neighbor across the hall has been watching them through the peephole.

    The commander pounds on the door, and says to the neighbor, "one word of this to anyone, and your daughter loses her place at the university."

    It's such a lovely example of how those in power can abuse information that people wouldn't even consider private or personal (is there anybody who wouldn't want their friends/neighbors to know about their daughter's university career?) by keeping a file on basically all citizens.

    --
    The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
  45. Old ancient news by gothzilla · · Score: 1

    Many many years ago I heard the same tin-foil hat fears. OMG! SPIEZ!
    There was an article about grocery store rewards cards and how evil empire corporations would track everything you bought and how that information could get out and ruin your life. It was accompanied with some story about a parent who was suing for child custody and their ex pulled out a shopping list full of alcohol and junk food. Funny how after all those warnings I haven't heard a word about it since.

    Here we are again, same crap, different underwear. Using the word "Epidemic" is totally rediculous and is designed to do nothing but freak out the paranoids over what is once again an over-blown concern. People have been able to hire P.I.'s and get loads of information on you for decades so why the fuss now? Are we really this desperate to be miserable and unhappy that we have to cling to every single bullshit article that warns us about the same stupid crap over and over?

    It's time to take the tin foil hats off. MIT proved they don't work anyway.

  46. Nothing to hide by sherriw · · Score: 1

    The "Nothing To Hide" argument was effectively addressed and invalidated by Daniel J. Solove in:

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID998565_code249137.pdf?abstractid=998565&mirid=1

    I think originally learned about this article on an old Slashdot story...

    Ah yes, here it is: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/10/2054219

  47. Things to hide by PPH · · Score: 1

    How about this:

    I'm a partner in a group involved in the acquisition of several companies. The SEC says I have things to hide.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  48. Answers by Stanistani · · Score: 1

    >Who let the all the people unable to make this distinction loose on the internet?
    AOL...

    >Why are there so many?
    In the 1980's laws changed, and the mentally ill are no longer confined against their will unless they pose an immediate threat of bodily harm to themselves or others.

    >Why are there so many who insist on making the correction in the wrong direction?
    The voices inside their head compel them.

  49. Does asking that question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... not simply go against the concept of "Innocent until proven Guilty" ?

  50. Amendment 4 by gr8scot · · Score: 1

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probably cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized My personal data, in any and all databases in which they are stored, are part of my "papers, and effects," and protected from search without a warrant, by anybody. The hired help at utility companies have no right to conduct searches of other citizen's records except in the performance of their job responsibilities. The entire "debate" about privacy rights is a travesty. The Constitution provides no legitimate interpretation other than that citizens have the right to absolute control over our data, and no right to anybody else's data. This is just total shit.
    --
    All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
  51. So... he did have something to hide? by volkris · · Score: 1

    So the article summary tried to disprove the notion that you have nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide by citing a case where a guy had something he had to hide?

    Brilliant!