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If IP Is Property, Where Is the Property Tax?

nweaver writes "In a response to the LA Times editorial on copyright which we discussed a week ago, the paper published a response arguing: 'If Intellectual Property is actually property, why isn't it covered by a property tax?' If copyright maintenance involved paying a fee and registration, this would keep Mickey Mouse safely protected by copyright, while ensuring that works that are no longer economically relevant to the copyright holder pass into the public domain, where the residual social value can serve the real purpose of copyright: to enhance the progress of science and useful arts. Disclaimer: the author is my father."

23 of 691 comments (clear)

  1. Wow... by milsoRgen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    On the face of it, I love that idea. The bigger question would be how do you determine the value of the IP to assess it for taxation.

    --
    I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    1. Re:Wow... by colmore · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I propose that the RIAA and MPAA and the BSA file the ridiculous figures they've been claiming all these years.

      --
      In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
    2. Re:Wow... by Radical+Moderate · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "The bigger question would be how do you determine the value of the IP to assess it for taxation."

      I agree, assessing intellectual property values would be a huge PIA.

      On the other hand, a simple, flat, renewal fee would have the same effect. Or perhaps a sliding scale, so that the longer you hold a copyright the more expensive it becomes. Copyrights that weren't producing revenues would be released, and Disney could keep Mickey forever. Might not generate the billions in tax revenues that the author envisions, but it would get more works in to the public domain.

      --
      Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
    3. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I would imagine it goes like this: You have some IP you want protected. You file for something to protect it (new something, copyright, whatever). You claim a value. You make up the value - whatever you want to say it is. You are then taxed on that value. The only caveat is that if someone wants it from you they can buy the whole damn thing from you for the price you claimed it was worth - UNLESS you immediately raise the value and pay a penalty for undervaluing it.

    4. Re:Wow... by rgmoore · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No the real question would be how much would you have to pay for that comment you just wrote.

      The answer is easy: nothing. You're never required to pay the property tax. It's just that you lose your copyright if you don't pay. Since I don't really care about the value of my slashdot comments, I wouldn't pay and they'd lapse into the public domain.

      That's exactly the point. Things like blog comments that have little monetary value to their creators shouldn't be protected indefinitely. Neither should books that their publishers care so little about that they're allowed to go out of print. They should move into the public domain so that other people can make use of them without fear of lawsuit.

      --

      There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

    5. Re:Wow... by milsoRgen · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How about every 10 years said item would go up to the auction block, if a competitor out bids you. They can claim the IP, if no one wants to compete the original value must be paid otherwise IP goes into public domain. And for IP that drastically changes in value in a short time, a petition could be filed that if properly cause is shown an auction could be triggered early.

      Or something, really I'm thinking any alternative more sensible than the life+70 would be good.

      --
      I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask where they're goin' and hook up with 'em later.
    6. Re:Wow... by KillerCow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sounds like a great way for big corporate interests to stamp out little competitors. Just force them to overvalue their IP (so they are at a disadvantage in servicing it) or buy it out from under them.

    7. Re:Wow... by bryanzera · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The only caveat is that if someone wants it from you they can buy the whole damn thing from you for the price you claimed it was worth - UNLESS you immediately raise the value and pay a penalty for undervaluing it.
      If IP is, in fact, property, then the property holder can choose not to sell their property.
    8. Re:Wow... by kennygraham · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's the same as 0.02 cents, right?

    9. Re:Wow... by Xanius · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Because as everyone knows, no two people could ever possibly have the same idea independently....

      I think it would be valued at whatever damages you want to claim when you sue someone over it. That'll keep the number of ridiculous damage claims down.

    10. Re:Wow... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Perfect.

      How about $0.01 for the first year, and it doubles every year after that?

      So, keeping a copyright for 10 years costs only $10.24, but keeping it for 16 years is $655.36, 20 years is $10485.76

      After 32 years, it's $42,949,672.96

      After 64 years, it's $184,467,440,737,095,516.16!!!

      Even the poorest small guy can afford to keep his Copyright for 10 years, but nobody will have the money to keep creative works out of the public hands for 50+ years.

      Again, this seems like the perfect system.

    11. Re:Wow... by srmalloy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No, no -- they don't need to file anything. Audit them. If the RIAA/MPAA is accurate about the value of the 'loss' from each individual instance of unauthorized copying, then they are, by their own admission, guilty of having failed to declare the true value of their assets as capital gains. It could wipe out the National Debt if the IRS could collect on all the back taxes...

    12. Re:Wow... by Jester998 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Under that system, where would the money from the auction go? To the government? To the original inventor? To the previous owner of the IP?

      There are flaws with that system no matter how you look at it:

      Some dude in a garage invents something amazing, makes a few million bucks selling it. In 10 years time, maybe it's become even more relevant (ready for mass adoption), so $megaCorp steps in and 'bids' a few BILLION on it. Original inventor doesn't have that kind of capital, loses rights to $megaCorp. But the rights are now transferred to someone else for their exclusive use. The small guy gets locked out, and the public interest still isn't satisfied.

      Under your other scenario ("for IP that drastically changes in value in a short time, a petition ... triggered early") is even WORSE, because $megaCorp could argue that the IP's value has changed drastically in the first 6 months and squash the original inventor before he's had a chance to reap his reward.

    13. Re:Wow... by Fourier404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Under that system, where would the money from the auction go? To the government? To the original inventor? To the previous owner of the IP? I don't see how you could possibly think that it would go anywhere but to the previous owner. Is there any instance where the sale of something at an auction (a non charity one, at least) leads to somebody other than the previous owner getting the money?

      With the scenario of $megaCorp, the original owner could bid however much he wants (ten trillion trillion), and then he'll pay himself (so he doesn't actually need to have any money). However if he does that, his taxes will go way up, and he has to decide if the IP is really worth that much, and if it really is worth a BILLION dollars, and no more, he'll sell. If he's emotionally attatched to it and doesn't want it to fall into the hands of $megaCorp, he can just release to the public domain.
    14. Re:Wow... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (No matter how many copies I make of Vista Ultimate, it still sells for $400)

      Perhaps that's true in the short term, but it's not in the long term. Assuming you've made the copies legally (i.e. copyright law doesn't exist), the value of Vista will go down due to supply and demand. If people can get Windows for free, no one (except the ignorant and those needing support contracts) would pay for it.

      No, I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Diminishing returns only works on real goods, not state-supported monopolies. That's because in a free market the producers are "price-takers" - they accept the price the market sets based on supply and demand. Goods protected by copyright exist in monopoly markets, not free markets. Microsoft owns the monopoly on Vista, and thus are the "price-setter". If they say it's $400, it's $400.

      Sorry, but this is just economics 101.

      There needs to be a way for people to be compensated for the content they create. They may not be creating a tangible good, but you can't deny that they've put a lot of time into their creations. I'm a big fan of open source projects; many of them have been successful at earning their creators decent livings while they give away their code for free. Not every piece of intellectual property can work this way, however - you're not going to sell a support contract on a work of art or a musical composition, for example.

      Let's face it - copyrights are necessary if we want the arts to continue to be a career option. While there are certainly many ways that the law is flawed, the underlying concept is not.

      No, this is also wrong. People do *not* have a right to be compensated. Let's say I go out into a field (designated as a public resource) and dig a hole. A really big hole. I work 10 hours a day in the blazing sun and now there is a hole big enough for 2 or 3 olympic sized swimming pools.

      I've put a *lot* of work into that hole. Who is going to pay me? Probably nobody, because nobody wants that hole. Just because you work hard on something doesn't mean it has value.

      There was never an "industry" for things like books and recorded music for most of history, yet music and writing have existed for thousands of years. Cavemen painted on the walls of their caves. Nobody paid them, but it was still done.

      Frankly, I think music in general would be a lot better if there weren't a bunch of corporations making widgets out of it.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    15. Re:Wow... by digitalunity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In my opinion, the real problem isn't copyrights as much as it is patents. I think, and the creators of the Berne convention must have agreed, by default people's creations need protection and in some countries they have gone farther by saying you can't legally blanket reassign those protections to another party.

      Patents however are probably the most widely misused legal instrument in the 'IP law' realm. They're often filed and obtained purely for anticompetitive reasons and are rarely ingenious enough to actually deserve patent protection. Companies constantly reinvent the wheel with minor variations and continually repatent the wheel simultaneously(see recent "online" gift card for sale at POS counter).

      I think if a patent is filed and the patent holder has not made any effort to commercialize or otherwise 'use' their patent within a predetermined time period(say 2 years, or 5 years), they should lose it. The benefit to society as a whole for so-called "IP holding companies" is negative and punitive reasons to prevent this situation from occurring should be created.

      You have to realize the patent is a government granted temporary monopoly to encourage companies to innovate, or at least that was the purpose. Fast forward to the present and you see now the primary reason to invest in patents is to stifle the competition and raise the barrier to entry. Effectively this creates not a single monopolist for a specific product, but instead creating monolithic industries that are impenetrable to newcomers. The only companies routinely willing to sue others to force compliance with patent laws are those IP holding companies; since they don't actually manufacture, design, distribute, redistribute or retail anything, they have no fear of reprisal.

      If someone creates a widget, patents it but fails to commercialize it and another person or company independantly comes up with the same widget and succeeds, what was the original inventor's benefit to society? None, but under current patent law the subsequent inventor is forced to redesign their widget differently from the original inventor even though the original inventor plays no value-adding role in this chain of research, design, invention, implementation and monetization.

      So, the trillion dollar question is, how do you fix this conundrum without unfairly empowering tipping the balance of power? I could write a book on the subject, but nobody with the power to change this will read it.

      --
      You can't legislate goodness. Let each to his own destiny, by will of his freely made choices.
  2. It isn't REAL property by cmay · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Real property (real estate) has property tax, but no one taxes you for personal property.

    I am sitting in a chair, no one is going to TAX me on the fact that I own some chair (personal property).

    Weak argument.

    1. Re:It isn't REAL property by PinchDuck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bingo. IP is taxed when the owner makes money on it. It's called the Income Tax.

  3. Valuating for Property Tax Purposes by qbzzt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think Heinlein had the solution to that (he used it for real property). You declare a value, you pay taxes based on that, and anybody can force you to sell it to them at that price.

    --
    -- Support a free market in the field of government
    1. Re:Valuating for Property Tax Purposes by Atlantis-Rising · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That sounds similar in concept to a shotgun buy/sell (for corporate shares).

      It sounds great in theory. In practice, however, it would be untenable. Linus would never be able to afford the property taxes on Linux, and as a result Microsoft with its billions in cash reserves would be able to buy it for a steal (unless of course Linus let it into the public domain, a decision I'm not even sure he could make.)

      Linux is obviously an example, and perhaps a bad one. But a shotgun buy/sell system as you are proposing dramatically favors those with larger revenue streams and ready cash reserves.

      --
      "It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
  4. Re:Majority of Artists by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First, this is not true. Most artists never become successful at all. Further, when a work does turn out to have copyright-related economic value, it is almost invariably 'front-loaded.' That is, you can exploit the work for the most money immediately upon publication in some medium, with the value steadily and rapidly decreasing thereafter. E.g. a movie sells the most tickets on opening weekend, and fewer every week after until finally it is so unprofitable that it leaves the theaters. When it comes out on video, it sells the most copies the first week, and again, fewer every week after that. The time horizon is usually measured in months per medium of publication. A movie might have a month, a book might have as long as a year. A newspaper, only a few hours (people don't often buy morning editions at night on the same day, much less later on), certain kinds of textbooks, perhaps several years. Creating a work that has lasting economic value is about as rare as winning the lottery. It is just stupid to design our policies around that sort of thing, it's so rare.

    Second, why should we care about the little guy -- or any author, of whatever size -- at all? Copyright is meant to serve the public interest, period. This means encouraging authors to create works the otherwise wouldn't've created, and getting those works into the public domain as soon as possible (with as little protection as possible prior to that). So long as the author creates works, it is utterly immaterial whether or not he makes money at it. Nor is it a bad thing for a work to enter the public domain and for other authors, regardless of whether they're big or small, to make some use of it. All that matters is getting the most number of works created for the least amount of cost in the form of copyright protection granted (i.e. what copyrights are granted initially, how broad the grants are, and how long the grants last). Entertaining silly, romantic notions of authors is what has gotten us into the mess we now find ourselves in. We need to stop with that crap. Copyright is utilitarian; whatever copyright system best serves the public, that's what we need, without one iota of concern for authors, save for how their condition might affect the public good that is our real sole issue. The most works for the least copyright 'buck.' It's as simple as that.

    --
    -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  5. Re:re Not so hot idea by lee1026 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Enforce the laws that says that others are not allowed to copy it.

  6. No need for a valuation: tax seems a good idea btw by waterbear · · Score: 5, Interesting

    (Well, there's already been a flood of posts on this one, but anyways .... )

    [1] FWIW I think the idea of a copyright tax is a good one, for the sake of making commerically unimportant copyrights available.

    [2] The tax doesn't have to be a big one to be effective, and any realistic tax would have to be on a uniform basis and a reasonable level to be administratively workable. Patent renewal fees already exist and are like that, and they do result in many patents being abandoned to the public domain before their term is up.

    [3] An additional advantage of a copyright tax would be that in the case of items that might look like 'abandonware' but are not, the tax register would help people's efforts to find the person claiming the copyright, if they want to fix up any kind of proper licensing permission.

    [4] A big difficulty in the way of implementation, is that copyright law conditions are now set by international treaty, the Berne Convention. This says that copyright has to be available without formality. So it isn't any longer up to Congress just to alter the law, unless they also want to leave (denounce) the Berne Convention (this would result in lack of mutuality of copyright protection between the US and just about every other country, an inconvenience and cause of loss and expense to copyright holders that caused the US to join the Convention in the first place.)

    So, international negotiations would be needed to insert some kind of 'sunset' clause into the Berne Convention. Or else, the tax could perhaps be brought in for some other effect, short of ending the copyright, like maybe avoiding a presumption of licensing-as-of-right: this could be legislatively created for untaxed copyright works. (But I'm not sure that even that would be compatible with the existing Berne Convention anyway.)

    [5] So, all in all, the idea sounds good, but is probably impractical until the international climate (in which the US govt currently has a big influence) moves away from the tendency to tighten IP nooses, and starts loosening up.

    -wb-