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Supercomputer Adds Credence to Standard Model

ScienceDaily is reporting that researchers at the University of Edinburgh and Southampton in cooperation with partners from Japan and the US have shed some light on the Standard Model of physics using a new computer model. "The project's enormously complex calculations relate to the behavior of tiny particles found in the nuclei of atoms, known as quarks. In order to carry out these calculations, the researchers first designed and built a supercomputer that was among the fastest in the world, capable of tens of trillions of calculations per second. The computations themselves have taken a further three years to complete. Their result shows that the Standard Model's claim to be the best theory invented holds firm. It raises the stakes for the riddle to be solved by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, which will switch on later this year. Physicists' efforts to confront Standard Model predictions using the most powerful computers available with the most precise experiments offer no clues about what to expect."

29 of 120 comments (clear)

  1. Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why does the number 42 come to mind?

    1. Re:Wow! by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, the word "supercomputer" has 13 characters. 14, if you count the terminating '\0'. The supercomputer was running for 3 years. Now 3*14=42. That should explain it. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  2. Boycott ScienceDaily by jnana · · Score: 5, Informative

    I wish people would stop posting crappy science articles from ScienceDaily and related sites.

    From this article, we learn that computer modeling confirmed something "about the behavior of quarks". That's it. There is nothing of substance in the article other than this and that the computation took three years.

    1. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Informative

      it's much worse than that, the article was pretty much mirrored from the source university of south hampton article here: http://www.soton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2008/feb/08_31.shtml which has absolutely nothing to add on the subject. three years of work and they don't even say what it is that they were modeling... what exactly was the point? perhaps a better article is required like the one here: http://www.physorg.com/news121963192.html

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
    2. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by ortholattice · · Score: 5, Informative

      I wish people would stop posting crappy science articles from ScienceDaily and related sites.
      I've found a better site to be http://www.eurekalert.org/ which is run by the AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science) and has less annoying ads. A very high percentage of ScienceDaily stories - although oddly not this one - are the same as those on Eurakalert, but Eurakalert seems to have them first (at least based on RSS feed). I think Eurakalert also provides the original press release from the university/organization - not a watered-down, clueless-journalist-rewritten "adapted from materials provided by [university/organization]" - and also gives the link to the actual "materials", usually not provided by ScienceDaily.
    3. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by jnana · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All this has done is said "We made a computer program that gives us the results we would expect from running this computer program."

      No, it's not nothing more than a tautology as you're implying. You're ignoring the nature of the program, which aims to embody the standard model well enough to make predictions about reality for phenomena that it's not been possible to directly observe. It's a little more than just a program that spits out arbitrary but predictable results, since the results do in fact have some relation to reality. If the model is any good at all, the correspondence will be very good.

      Nothing in computer modeling makes a connection to reality and truth.

      You must also believe that computer models of aerodynamics that predict a racecar will experience less drag than a Hummer also have no connection to reality and truth. I'd argue that to the extent that a model makes accurate predictions again and again, there is some connection to reality and truth.

    4. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by Score+Whore · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're ignoring the nature of the program, which aims to embody the standard model well enough to make predictions about reality for phenomena that it's not been possible to directly observe. It's a little more than just a program that spits out arbitrary but predictable results, since the results do in fact have some relation to reality. If the model is any good at all, the correspondence will be very good.


      If you can't observe the phenomena in the real world, then how do you know the model has any correspondence? Or are you going to say that my computer model of classical mechanics is proof that general relativity is incorrect?

      You must also believe that computer models of aerodynamics that predict a racecar will experience less drag than a Hummer also have no connection to reality and truth. I'd argue that to the extent that a model makes accurate predictions again and again, there is some connection to reality and truth.


      I would suggest you re-read my post and consider this phrase:

      ...cannot expand (or confirm) the frontiers of [scientific] research...


      I absolutely agree that you can use computer models in engineering. But the computer model showing a race car has less drag than a Hummer isn't expanding your knowledge of fluid dynamics. It's allowing you to apply what you already have established as the rules to different situations. It will not allow you to prove or disprove new rules for fluid dynamics.
    5. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by jnana · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you can't observe the phenomena in the real world, then how do you know the model has any correspondence?

      The whole point is that many phenomena are observable, and predictions by the model have been verified again and again. Those that cannot currently be verified may be verified in the future, and if they are falsified, that tells us that one of the simplifications that was made in order to create the computer program was not warranted or that there is some factor that our program failed to incorporate that turned out to be important.

      I would suggest you re-read my post and consider this phrase:

      ...cannot expand (or confirm) the frontiers of [scientific] research...

      The more successful predictions about new kinds of phenomena, particle interactions, etc. that we have, the more confidence we have in the theory. Colloquially speaking, those successful predictions help confirm the theory.

      I absolutely agree that you can use computer models in engineering. But the computer model showing a race car has less drag than a Hummer isn't expanding your knowledge of fluid dynamics. It's allowing you to apply what you already have established as the rules to different situations.

      It's only engineering if we actually make the cars. When we run the model, it is just as much science as the experiment under consideration. The racecar/hummer example may not expand our knowledge, but you also said that it can't offer confirmation and has no relation to reality or truth. The important point is that modeling that makes new predictions about unseen phenomena that turn out to be correct is part of the process of moving from untested hypotheses to established science.

      It will not allow you to prove or disprove new rules for fluid dynamics.

      Now you're changing your story from "computer models cannot confirm ..." and "models have no relation to reality or truth" to "cannot prove or disprove new rules", whatever that is supposed to mean.

      I get the feeling that I'm being trolled, since you apparently believe that all computer programs/models relating to the standard model and presumably general relativity and anything else that is not totally-settled-forever-science are absolutely worthless and have no relation to reality.

    6. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Why would something I can describe in math be any more real?"

      Don't know, but it often is - perhaps maths is just mapping the functioning of our perceptions. Anyway because math has been usefull we continue to use it to model the real world and make testable predictions. TFA is describing a prediction that the LHC may falsify.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by dario_moreno · · Score: 2, Informative

      the point is that 99% of physical equations are non-linear, N-body, ordinary or partial differential equations and thus do not have an analytical solution. So the only approach to check if as you say the hypothesis are correct is numerical. Even the great Fermi had to recur to an army of mechanical calculators staffed by humans to see if his equations had a meaning. Since Galileo mathematized physics there have been 300 years without computers so people (and teaching up to nowadays) are used to approximations and analytical solutions because it gives "beauty" and beautiful exercises ; but numerical analysis if properly taught can also be beautiful and give many insights.

      --
      Google passes Turing test : see my journal
    8. Re:Boycott ScienceDaily by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What he really means is that newtonian physics are completely against his ideology (postmodernism) and therefore must be wrong.

      FOR NOW it hasn't been proven that quantummechanics doesn't allow postmodern thought, although it HAS been proven that it's "limit" (ie. when we're not talking about trillionths of a second but about tenths) that it does indeed not allow the many-worlds view of the postmodernists.

      This is a necessity to allow for the magic thinking that is required for postmodern interpretations of ... well anything. "Every truth is equal". At first glance quantum mechanics allows this, while newtonian physics does not.

      This is obviously the real issue Einstein was referring to with his famous "God does not play dice".

      Then again, to anyone with an ounce of sense it is clear that the postmodern interpretation of science is bullshit in the extreme. In fact it's worse. Science cannot co-exist with postmodernism, because it's basic premises are the exact reverse :

      -> postmodernism : there is more than one truth (and so my truth is a valid one, and taken in the extreme : an electron will move however I think it moves)
      -> science : there is a singular truth for everyone, and everything (ie. an electron behaves the same, whatever my theory about it's movement)

      The problem is that many, many other ideas are absolutely dependant on postmodernism. Multiculturalism, for obvious reasons, is utterly dependant on this (wrong) interpretation. As is anything more atheist than agnosticism.

      The real scientific way of thinking about the world is simple : there is one, singular set of laws that define the absolute, unchanging truth. These are completely dogmatic, and utterly independent of any human. There can be no votes about the truth, there can be no changing the truth, it is absolute. AND (and this is where a lot of "radical" people go wrong) we DO NOT know this truth (but we know a hell of a lot about it, and we know a hell of a lot of truths that certainly aren't correct).

      Obviously this means that the universe itself has what could be called a "state religion". You'll get your ass kicked, by the proverbial God(s) themselves, unless your ideology/religion matches certain absolute truths.

  3. Uncertainty by Sorthum · · Score: 5, Funny

    So they talk about how fast this new supercomputer is.

    I presume that means they have absolutely no idea where it is?

  4. No 42 by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...but a Clearwater Revival does.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:No 42 by pete-classic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wouldn't hold out much hope for the tape deck though.

      -Peter

  5. Higgs by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 4, Informative

    Before we claim that the Standard Model is the end all of particle physics, lets see if we can find the Higgs Boson. Afterall, Fermilab has come very, very close, so the LHC should be able to seal the deal.

    1. Re:Higgs by dreamchaser · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure Fermilab found the Higgs on a few occaisions. It's just that procedure calls for a certain number of data points before making such claims. It's still quite possible that Fermilab will announce solid findings on the Higgs before the LHC really even picks up steam. Either way, we should know in the next couple of years.

      I for one am hoping they find something totally unexpected with the LHC.

  6. Re:The answer to life, the universe and everything by lawn.ninja · · Score: 2, Funny

    There is also the slight possiblity that we asked the wrong question.

  7. It has to be said... by Toe,+The · · Score: 2, Funny

    Supermodel Adds Credence to Standard Computer

    Did Dell get Gisele Bündchen as a spokesmodel or something?

  8. after three years ... by BenBoy · · Score: 2, Funny
    the researchers first designed and built a supercomputer that was among the fastest in the world, capable of tens of trillions of calculations per second. The computations themselves have taken a further three years to complete.

    If my own purchases are any indication, three years out the damned thing's now completely outmoded, and a pocket calculator will do the same thing ...

  9. An article with actual substance by Vellmont · · Score: 4, Informative

    Rather than "they used a supercomputer to do physics"

    http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/PR_display.asp?prID=08-x5

    --
    AccountKiller
  10. TFA - enjoy... :) by djupedal · · Score: 2, Informative
    Supercomputer Confirms Standard Model Theory Of The Universe, Deepens Puzzle

    ScienceDaily (Feb. 29, 2008) -- Scientists have used a supercomputer to shed new light on one of the most important theories of physics, the Standard Model, which encapsulates understanding of all the material that makes up the universe. This 30-year-old theory explains all the known elementary particles and three of the four forces acting upon them - however, it excludes the force of gravity, which is its shortcoming.

    Physicists have been trying to find the missing pieces in the jigsaw that would extend the Standard Model into a complete theory of all the forces of nature. However, the landmark findings by researchers at the Universities of Edinburgh and Southampton, and their partners in Japan and the US, confirm the Standard Model to even greater precision than before, deepening the puzzle.

    The project's enormously complex calculations relate to the behaviour of tiny particles found in the nuclei of atoms, known as quarks. In order to carry out these calculations, the researchers first designed and built a supercomputer that was among the fastest in the world, capable of tens of trillions of calculations per second. The computations themselves have taken a further three years to complete.

    Their result shows that the Standard Model's claim to be the best theory invented holds firm. It raises the stakes for the riddle to be solved by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, which will switch on later this year. Physicists' efforts to confront Standard Model predictions using the most powerful computers available with the most precise experiments offer no clues about what to expect.

    Professor Chris Sachrajda of the University of Southampton's School of Physics and Astronomy said: 'Modern supercomputers and improved theoretical techniques are allowing us to explore the limits of the Standard Model to an unprecedented precision. The next stage will be to combine such computations with new experimental results expected from the Large Hadron Collider to unravel the next level of fundamental physics.'

    Professor Richard Kenway of the University of Edinburgh's School of Physics added: 'Although the Standard Model has been a fantastic success, there were one or two dark corners where experimental tests had been inconclusive, because vital calculations were not accurate enough. We shone a light on one of these, but to our enormous frustration, nothing was lurking there.'

    The research, published in Physical Review Letters, was supported by the Science and Technology Facilities Council.

    Adapted from materials provided by University of Southampton .

  11. No! by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 3, Funny

    I am Vroomfondle and that is not a demand, it is a solid fact.

    We are philosophers (though we may not be). We are here as representatives of Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries, and Other Professional Thinking Persons and we want this machine off and we want off now.

    What's the use of our sitting up all night saying there may (or may not be) a God if this machine comes along next morning and gives you his telephone number?

    We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!

    You'll have a National Philosopher's Strike on your hands!

  12. I asked my supercomputer... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Funny
    "Is the Standard Model correct?"

    I only had to wait a few seconds for the answer: "Reply hazy, try again".

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  13. Re:Is there more detail online somewhere by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 3, Informative

    If it has to do with quarks and it takes a supercomputer, I'd guess a lattice QCD simulation.

  14. Of course, no gravity! by l2718 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Gravity -- certainly the weakest force -- is completely irrelevant as far as the physics of elementary particles is concerned. In real life there is no way to observe any kind of gravitational interactions on the scales where the other forces are relevant. In particular, if there is physics just beyond the standard model it need not have any connection to gravity. It's true that gravity is relevant on extremely large scales, but for these scales we have perfectly good theories (GR; in fact Newtonian gravity is quite sufficient in almost all cases). You'd have to go to Planck scale before there'll be any guarantee of gravitational effects playing a role.

    This is not to say that a quantum theory including gravity is not an important goal of theoretical physics, it's just to say that so far we have not found any real-life situations where such a theory would be needed, that is when corrections due to quantum gravity would play any role whatsoever. Hopefully the LHC will probe the physics beyond the standard model. The number of orders of magnitude between the energy scales we can actually observe and the quantum gravity energy scale make it extremely unlikely, however, that gravity will be relevant to experimental fundamental physics for many millenia.

    1. Re:Of course, no gravity! by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Gravity -- certainly the weakest force -- is completely irrelevant as far as the physics of elementary particles is concerned. Unless you're talking about the big bang, which is what this computation is all about trying to understand.
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
  15. Actually, yes. I can. by symbolset · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm just trying to think of how I would react, knowing that a computer was going to take 3 years to finish a task. Can you imagine staring at the status bar for that?

    I'm copying 2GB of photos from a share to my pen drive under Vista right now, so I don't have to imagine it.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  16. Theory and Experiment equally important by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Observations tend to provide "eureka" information that theory might miss or not become main stream for a while.

    I completely disagree. It is only when theory and observation both agree that you have a "eureka" moment. For example we have an observation that there is lots of dark energy (not dark matter - that is different) in the universe. However, so far, there is no good theory as to what it is. I don't seem to remember anyone going "Eureka! We have discovered dark energy!". Rather everyone is sitting around scratching their heads and wondering what it is.

    To get a Eureka moment you must have BOTH theory AND experiment in agreement. The SNO experiment is an excellent example. Experiment: not enough electron neutrinos coming from the sun; theory: neutrinos can change flavour from electron to tau or muon so the total flux of neutrinos will be correct; experiment: SNO measured the total neutrino flux and discovered that it agreed with solar model predictions while still seeing a reduced electron neutrino flux. Result: EUREKA! Neutrinos oscillate!

    Conclusion: theory and experiment are both EQUALLY important to advancing science. One without the other may be interesting but not very useful.

  17. Re:Mersenne prime by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ooops! Please ignore my previous post.