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Clinton Takes Ohio, Texas; McCain Seals The Deal

You can read it pretty much anywhere, but Clinton took Ohio and Texas meaning that the democratic primaries are far from over. Unlike the Dems, McCain has locked his nomination for the Republicans by breaking the 1,191 delegates necessary. So there it is. Talk amongst yourselves.

17 of 898 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Damn by aredubya74 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Indeed, not counting the Texas caucus results (which are likely to favor Obama), Clinton's likely to come out of last night's victories net'ing less than 10 delegates, and possibly even losing ground if the caucus goes particularly well (60-40 or better) for Obama.

    I'm not a registered Democrat, though I do vote for their candidates more often than not. The inconsistencies of the state party mechanisms, plus the proportional voting, does seem highly illogical. In the general, it's winner-take-all, and there's no superdelegates (unless you count the Supreme Court - 2000 election says hi). I hope the party recognizes this flaw in the system, which only stands to keep them stigmatized as the party of political procedure and not of coherent action.

    That all said, if John McCain makes it through to Election Day without a single health scare, I would be very surprised. He's 72, and has a relatively poor health history. I certainly wouldn't wish ill health on him, but I do think there's a strong likelihood of at least one incident on the road.

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    RW

  2. Re:Damn by MLCT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The super delegates will decide it all - the actual raw numbers don't make much difference. Winning Ohio and Texas wasn't important to Clinton due to the number of delegates she would win, but rather has very strongly reinforced the stall she is going to set out to the supers, namely "I win in the "big" states, Obama wins in the "little" states". A piece in the NYT laid it all out yesterday, pointing out that if she lost both Texas & Ohio it wouldn't make a vast difference to the numbers - due to PR - but it would leave her with virtually no storyline to present to the supers. Since she won them she has now quite a potent storyline to present - and it may end up handing her the title.

  3. Re:why is texas a win for her? by callistra.moonshadow · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, Texas has a caucus. She took the primary but Obama took more in the caucus which is a smaller percentage of the delegates. As to her actually *winning* one must wonder if Rush Limbaugh may have contributed to Republicans cross-voting just to up the contention between Clinton and Obmana and further muddy the outcome for the Dems. --cally

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    --Cally
  4. Re:Nash Equilibrium by Da+Fokka · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The reason negative campaigning is used so much is basically because it works, no matter how much people hate it. Negative emotions tend to be more salient than positive emotions. In Dutch there is a saying 'Vertrouwen komt te voet en gaat te paard', which can be roughly translated as 'Trust arrives in little steps but leaves with large strides'. Politicians have to make a lot of good impressions to counteract a single bad impression.

    I agree with your assessment that the Democrats will have a real challenge, regardless of the candidate they choose. McCain does not really suffer from the huge impopularity of president Bush as much as the other republican candidates (bar Ron Paul) would have. He's got some character, everyone from left to right has to respect a guy who survived five years of torture. And the republicans can start organizing while the Democrats are in disarray. I'm really rooting for Obama but it looks like there will be no Democratic candidate until the convention.

  5. Ask and ye shall receive by dada21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Politics continues to sicken me, although not more than before. I'll even go so far as to say that I'm less sickened that I was in the past, because I now place the blame on where it should be placed: on the voters.

    I don't vote (actually, I anti-vote, writing my own name in where possible). Voting is an act that provides the PTB a simple request from the voter: "Lead me as you think I should be led." I don't need a leader. My life is in my hands, as are the lives of my family. Instead of spending out of control, we save. Instead of relying on insurance for regular medical visits, we pay cash on the barrel and pay a low insurance premium just for emergencies. We eat healthy, exercise, and try to stay in shape so as not to need expensive medical visits and medication that many of our friends take (and want discounts for). Rather than being angered by people that are different from ourselves, we travel the world every year and meet those that the PTB say are our enemies. Most of the time they are people not so different from ourselves.

    The country demands a leader, and they'll get one. Individuals, even the most pious and charitable, generally look out for themselves first. A leader is no different. A leader generally doesn't listen to those that he/she leads. A leader may only have said position for a few years, but will always be thinking about what they will do after their leadership position is over. In some situations, the most egomaniacal leaders may be thinking about how history will support their positions and actions.

    The surprise to me is that we United States citizens believe we need a leader, at least in government. The Constitution doesn't give the President power to lead, only to execute the laws which we wanted put in place; equitable laws that infringe on everyone equally, rather than giving preferential treatment to the few at the cost of the many (or vice versa). The President is not the Commander-in-Chief until Congress actively declares war. We declared war in WW2, but since then, we have not had a legal CiC. The President is not there to save the economy, or even care about the economy, because economic issues are the domain of Congress, or even more preferably the States. The President isn't supposed to take positions on what he or she will support or wants to do, because the President merely reviews signed bills and their Constitutionality, and only then making the decision to support future execution of said bills into law if the bills mass Constitutional muster. Most don't.

    It is sad when people demand a leader, but are too fearful of being leaders themselves. This is why I am disgusted -- not with politics -- but with you voters who have your head so far up your rears that you think your leader can lead me. I'll be forced to follow.

  6. Re:Damn by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    There is no "thankfully" to it. This pretty much ensures an ugly floor fight which will fracture and humiliate the Democratic party and put John McCain in the White House. It's truly amazing just how far Democrats will go to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Even in the face of the most unpopular war since Vietnam and the most hated Republican president since Nixon, the Democrats still can't pull it together for a win. And even when they do win (as they did in 1992, 1996, and 2006) they immediately fracture, cave-in, sell-out, and generally squander any potential for any real improvement thanks to their laughably weak party discipline.

    Frankly, I wish they would just go the way of the Whigs (and take the Republicans with them while they're at it). This country desperately needs a REAL party for liberals, libertarians, and progressives. And God knows neither the undisciplined, spineless Democrat party nor the bible-thumping, war-mongering Republican party are truly serving the people.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  7. Re:why is texas a win for her? by Shotgun · · Score: 5, Interesting

    one must wonder if Rush Limbaugh may have contributed

    I just have to wonder if Limbaugh's advice is counterproductive.

    From what I've seen in this election cycle, more than any other is that people are basically led around by the talking heads on TV. The will vote for whoever is getting the most press. With the Republican nomination cynched by McCain, the only thing that will be in the news will be Obama/Clinton. Come November, people will be saying, "McCain? Who is that?"

    It isn't a matter of the media reporting badly about McCain. It is a matter of them simply overtly shutting him out of the news coverage altogether, like they did with Paul, Kucinich and later Huckabee. The talking-head, 24-hour news cycle is an extremely powerful tool that amounts to free political adds for whoever the network controllers consider a "front-runner", whether that be Giovanni or Thompson. Having Obama/Clinton being the "news of the day" for the next few months will not help McCain.

    --
    Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
    Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  8. Not by delegate count by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Obama campaign appears to be much better organized than the Clinton campaign. Clinton tried to run an "inevitability" campaign like Bush did in the Republican primaries in 2000. When that didn't work as well as expected for Clinton, it really looked like they weren't ready with any kind of backup plan. Also, Hillary Clinton is still following the strategy that allowed Bill Clinton to win the presidency twice: ignore huge parts of the country, take others for granted, and focus on a few "swing" states to get the minimum amount of votes to win. Obama's team appears to have understood the rules of the primaries and caucuses better than Clinton's, which is surprising, given how much Clinton plays up her experience as a Senator, an activist, and yes, as the wife of Bill Clinton. I can't imagine how they could not know how Texas's apportionment of delegates works, and yet they claim they didn't. While Clinton won the popular vote in three of four states (Rhode Island, Texas, and Ohio, but not Vermont), Rhode Island and Vermont basically canceled each other out (each was a blowout and both states have few delegates). Clinton won the popular vote in Texas and Ohio, but the final delegate count will be either a very small (single-digit) number of net delegates going to Clinton or even possibly Obama padding his three-digit lead by a few more delegates.
    Obama's campaign ran hard and organized even in the states where he was way ahead. The result was blowout victories, which makes a difference in the primaries, because the apportionment of delegates depends on the margin of victory. Clinton scored one blowout yesterday and was blown out in another state, so the net effect is probably about 1 net delegate for Clinton. In the bigger states, Clinton scored two narrow victories, and in Texas, the combined primary-caucus may end up giving Obama a net win in delegates.
    Clinton's campaign has tried to change the rules during the contest more than once, which is really lame. There's talk that the Clinton campaign will now sue over the nature of the Texas caucus-primary, but they had the same access to the rules as the Obama campaign did. They just seem not to have planned as well.
    Obama appears to be more of a party-builder, like Howard Dean and his "50 State Strategy." While moron pundits like Paul Begala derided paying party workers to "pick their noses" in places like Montana and Mississippi, Dean set up the structure not only for the Democrats' retaking both houses of Congress in the 2006 elections, but also for extending their majorities and making gains in the state legislatures nationwide. Obama seems to have embraced that strategy, and it would make a difference in places like Texas, where Rick Noriega could have a chance of unseating Senator Cornyn if the presidential candidate doesn't ignore the state, and at the very least the Democrats could force the Republicans to spend money to defend what previously would have been considered a very safe seat. Clinton's campaign, as recently as last week, when it thought she might lose in Texas, was saying that "Texas does not figure into the electoral calculus of a Democratic (Presidential) candidate." That is a ridiculously narrow view, and since so many of Hillary's advisors and consultants also worked for Bill, I wonder if the Clintons' philosophy is responsible for the fact that Bill Clinton managed to win the White House, but then the Democrats almost immediately lost control of both houses of Congress, setting the stage for the Bush presidency, when White House power was basically unchecked by a Congress all too willing to let Bush and Cheney do whatever they wanted. Including taking a surplus and making it into record deficits. Oh, and a multi-trillion dollar war that destabilized the region and created more terrorists by making bin Laden and his ilk look really smart as the US government acted just as al Qaeda and others said it would.

    Here's the thing: I'm pushing 40, and Bill Clinton was far and away the best president of

    --
    "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
  9. Texas voter here: This is simply untrue. by BeeBeard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am a Texas resident who voted in both the primary and caucus, and so I naturally had a stake in closely following the primary results. At no time did Obama ever lead when the primary results came in, nor is he the leader in some ubiquitous Texas "popular vote." Hillary won that as well. Texas was a victory for Hillary in every sense of the word.

    We are still awaiting the returns on the caucus, but that only accounts for a mere 1/3rd of the delegates awarded to each candidate, and the early returns indicate that whatever meager advantage that Obama may have in caucus votes will be all but swallowed up by Hillary's more impressive win in the primary election. Really we're talking about hundreds of extra Obama caucus votes vs. Hillary's hundreds of thousands of extra primary votes.

    Now for some light editorializing: The reason we're still waiting on caucus results in many counties is because Texas had roughly double the expected turnout. The antiquated system we have in place requires that everyone in a precinct vote in the primary election before the caucus can be held. And the inability of many precincts to deal with the added influx of voters made it so that, in many cases, caucus voting could not start until 11 pm that evening.

    Obama will likely fare slightly better in the caucus in Texas, only because the core of the Democrat party--the baby boomers who constitute the majority of Hillary supporters--had families to get back to and jobs they had to get up for the next morning. Hillary supporters simply didn't have the ability to "two-step" all the way into the early morning hours, while it apparently is far easier for the young, first time voters who make up Obama's base to spend literally six hours of their time at their local middle school or fire station.

    If you think it's silly to have both a primary election followed by a caucus that runs into the late hours, then you've just joined the ranks of many Texans who think it's ridiculous as well. Not only is it hard for people to get a handle on the vote once / vote again thing, but it does tend to disenfranchise hard-working Democrats who can't be out all night caucusing. A 19 year-old UT student and Obama supporter who would just be out all night anyway? Welcome to the party. A 46 year-old mother of two and Hillary supporter who has to prepare for a shift working at the hospital? Congratulations, you effectively have no say in the caucus. So that's why there is a slight disconnect between the primary and caucus results.

    Since irrational Obama supporters apparently run the internets, I fully expect this post to be modded "Troll" or something, because it doesn't contain the requisite amount of Obama bias and instead offers a firsthand account of what went down in Texas last night, and posits a reasonable theory for the disparity between primary and caucus votes. How scandalous. Do your candidate of choice proud, and suppress any relatively objective post you see.

    1. Re:Texas voter here: This is simply untrue. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I personally was a ron paul supporter, tho I my current preferred vote would be obama->mccain->clinton. I am pretty sure that Clinton is *unelectable* against McCain short of him dying of old age before the election.

      A ton of republicans crossed over last night and voted for clinton on Rush Limbaugh's suggestion. They are all crowing about it on the Laura Ingram show this morning. And none of them will vote for clinton in the real election.

      It's a very cynical and effective move. It drains both campaigns of cash- keeps both candidates hammering at each other- and may even force a brokered convention (which I view as a good thing).

      I agree that working families have to go home- but i also say a lot of republicans didn't stick around for the democratic caucus and it is my opinion that the caucus's are closer to what the popular vote would be without Rush's brilliant, if twisted idea. Voting insincerely undercuts the entire process. In this case, many votes for Clinton were really votes against her and for McCain.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    2. Re:Texas voter here: This is simply untrue. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Obama will likely fare slightly better in the caucus in Texas, only because the core of the Democrat party--the baby boomers who constitute the majority of Hillary supporters--had families to get back to and jobs they had to get up for the next morning. Hillary supporters simply didn't have the ability to "two-step" all the way into the early morning hours, while it apparently is far easier for the young, first time voters who make up Obama's base to spend literally six hours of their time at their local middle school or fire station.

      Yeah? Well the church my precinct's caucus was held in was packed to the freaking gills -- standing room only, they had to open up an annex which they also completely filled -- and it took over an hour after the sign-in began for everyone to sign the books for Obama. If you were Clinton supporter, you were done in about two minutes because there simply weren't many people in line in front of you.

      And despite your stereotype, these were by and large middle aged working-class adults with families. Many of them had brought their families with them so that they could caucus -- some even had infants in papooses strapped to their chests. You can say whatever crud you want about baby-boomers with families; the ones who cared, the ones who were passionate about their candidate, they made it to the caucus.

      Since irrational Obama supporters apparently run the internets, I fully expect this post to be modded "Troll" or something, because it doesn't contain the requisite amount of Obama bias and instead offers a firsthand account of what went down in Texas last night, and posits a reasonable theory for the disparity between primary and caucus votes. How scandalous. Do your candidate of choice proud, and suppress any relatively objective post you see.

      Of course, objectively made-up stereotypes. And here's a reasonable theory for the disparity between primary and caucus votes:

      Texas has an open primary. With the Republican nomination essentially decided, there was no point for a Republican to vote in their party's primary, meaning they were free to vote in the Democratic primary. A strategic vote for the candidate most likely to lose the general election is a way to strengthen their own candidate. However it wasn't worth going to the trouble to caucus just for the sake of a strategic vote. This is the supposed advantage of the caucus -- that it attracts only those who are truly passionate about their candidates. Nobody's going to crowd into a packed church and stand for hours as the heat rises from all the bodies just to cast a "strategic" vote. But as they finish up their shopping at Randals? Sure, why not sabotage the other party.

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      The enemies of Democracy are
    3. Re:Texas voter here: This is simply untrue. by dougmc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Obama will likely fare slightly better in the caucus in Texas, only because the core of the Democrat party--the baby boomers who constitute the majority of Hillary supporters--had families to get back to and jobs they had to get up for the next morning.
      Actually, at the caucus I went to, the Clinton mob was 80% women (yes, I counted) and mostly middle aged to elderly, with only a few younger people. The Obama mob was twice as big, roughly 50/50 men/women, with a much larger range in ages (they weren't all young, but the average age was certainly less.) And many people brought their kids.


      The people who showed up for the Clinton caucus were mostly old enough that they probably didn't have young children at home. The Obama supporters had a lot of people who were the right age to have kids at home (including myself.)

      If the problem is that the Clinton supporters all had families to take care of, it's funny that the Obama supporters did too -- and yet they made it out anyways. I saw _zero_ children in the Clinton camp, but perhaps 15 in the Obama camp.

      To be fair, I live in Travis county, which is traditionally an island of blue in a state of red, and Travis county voted for Obama vs Clinton by a large margin. But if I recall correctly, the number of delegates per area is based on the voter turnout in the last election -- and the urban areas (and Travis especially) voted in very large numbers, so they'll get more delegates. And the urban areas are generally supporting Obama.

      Ultimately, it looks like even if Clinton wins the popular vote in Texas (well, not if -- she has), it appears that she will not get more delegates. Which is pretty weird if you ask me, but it's the way it is. So, both Clinton and Obama will declare victory in Texas ...

    4. Re:Texas voter here: This is simply untrue. by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I also voted twice in this primary. The poster you keep disagreeing with was right on. My wife and I showed up at 7:00pm. We were the first group to go through and some of the first in our group and we didn't get out of there until 10:45pm.

      We are young, employed, new parents, and my wife goes to school. We had a sick child at home (stuffy nose, nothing major... thanx for your concern). We would not have been able to attend had it not been for my mother-in-law being in town to watch her.

      Many people there had their kids with them. Someone brought up a motion that those with kids should be allowed to go first. It was denied.

      There were not enough sheets for everyone to fill out their votes on. (ballots, if you will, but this is not a private vote. Everyone filled out the same sheets, 12 per page).

      There was a lot of screeching from the two sides (Clinton and Obama) claiming the other may have an advantage. "There are too many Obama supporters running this. We need a Clinton supporter to observe..." and so on.

      I kept thinking to myself. "These people can not run a local, one party caucus in a small town. What makes them think they can run the country?"

      Who runs the primary caucus for the democrats? The local Democratic parties.

      Something could have been done about the situation. Oh and that blurb was headlines on CNN Not once it started. That's when the bickering began.

      Oh, my apologies. You're just a troll. Re-read your post. No, he was right. You were being a troll.

      Besides, I'm sorry if you disapprove us having children, jobs, and going to school to better ourselves. We bust our asses to make ends meet and make sure we have a table, are able to put food on it and have a roof to cover it all. It was a pain in the ass for us to be there so late and disarray of the whole thing made it worse. So don't give me, the OP, or anyone else any shit if they had more important things to do than to vote in the primary. Not all of us can simply tell our mom we are going to vote and close the door to the basement. Some of us have obligations that take precedence over politics.
      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    5. Re:Texas voter here: This is simply untrue. by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Serves the Democrats right for crossing over and voting for McCain in Republican primaries. They have no right to complain after they stuck us with one of our weakest possible candidates (the only way it could've been worse would've been if that idiot Ron Paul ended up winning).

      Democrats were told to vote for Mitt Romney to drag out the Republican race and hurt the Republican party. Democrats who voted for McCain, like me, did so because we genuinely thought he was the Republican who would make the best president (of those running -- I kinda like Lincoln Chafee and Olympia Snowe).

      Now, I had been on the fence about whether to vote for McCain in the Republican primary or Miller (if he looked viable) or Obama in the Democratic primary. But then there really wasn't a Democratic primary in Michigan, so that was easy.

      What's wrong with the two parties getting to choose their candidates without interference from outsiders?
      It's not fair to independents. It's also not fair to people trying to knock out lunatics like George W. Bush, Rudy Guliani or Hillary Clinton (I don't mind her but I realize many do) at every possible stage. I'll be voting Democratic in November, but this year was the second time I've voted for McCain in for president. In 2000, I might even have voted for him in the general election.

  10. Fraud - AGAIN! by swordgeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So after hearing about Clinton winning Texas and Ohio (and Rhode Island, for that matter), the second thing I read about the crazy pre-election election that seems so popular in the US right now was this article:
    http://www.click2houston.com/news/15492166/detail.html

    Seems that someone "helped" seniors register to vote, and then filed absentee ballots in their names.

    Thing is, every election, every vote, every ballot that happens in the US seems to be tainted by fraud of some sort. Identity theft, ballot stuffing, turning away voters, rigged machines, middle-of-the-night changes to the law, you name it--it's all going on, and seems to be going on all the time. The worst part is that it hardly ever raises an eyebrow from the voting public or the media. In this example, there is solid evidence of election fraud, and it's getting a few column-inches on a local website. Why isn't this on the front page of the Houston Chronicle?

    Don't you people even CARE about the failure of your democracy anymore?

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  11. Re:why is texas a win for her? by JudgeFurious · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You know, I spent a lot of time pondering that as well. Why does this candidate rub me the wrong way so badly? I didn't mind her husband as President and so I naturally started wondering if it was because of her gender. Was I being sexist without recognizing it? Ultimately I concluded that my biggest problem with Hillary Clinton was her personality and the almost palpable ambition she seems to give off. It's like the woman is just starving for power and will step over just about anybody or anything to get it. I haven't had this kind of negative feeling about a candidate or President since Nixon. Despite his actions I don't much get it from GWB. I do get a sense of it from Cheney however.

      She goes into a series of primaries with agreeing to certain terms (like Florida and Michigan not counting for instance) and then when it seems like she might not get her way she starts making noises about changing those terms. She enters a primary in Texas fully aware of how the primary works in Texas (and any protests otherwise she might make border on being insulting in my opinion) and then again you start to hear rumblings from her campaign about the possibility of filing suit to have this changed because it does not favor her. She goes into debates talking about being "co-President" and trying to leverage her husbands coat tails (which I do not fault her for doing mind you) but then denies any real involvment when failures or negatives from his administration are brought up. I see this and think "You were either the co-President or you weren't so what's it gonna be?"

      This is the kind of behavior that makes me just cringe at the thought of her being President of the United States.

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
  12. Freudian slip? by interactive_civilian · · Score: 4, Interesting
    or dig at Republicans?

    My theory is, he's immoral.
    Well, in my cynical view, he's a politician, so of course he's immoral. ;p
    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks