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Democrats Propose Commission To Investigate Spying
metalman writes "Wired has a story on a proposal by House Democrats to 'establish a national commission — similar to the 9/11 Commission... to find out — and publish — what exactly the nation's spies were up to during their five-year warrantless, domestic surveillance program.' The draft bill would also preserve the requirement of court orders and remove 'retroactive immunity for telecom companies.' (We've discussed various government wiretaps, phone companies, and privacy violations before.) But it seems unlikely that such an alternative on phone immunity would pass both the House and Senate, let alone survive a Presidential veto."
How exactly is it that one man, the President, has the power to veto any bill that's passed by Congress? What happens when a bill comes along which could threaten him in some way? Didn't someone think about this before granting veto ability for the Prez?
I don't live in the US so please forgive me if there's actually some method to this madness, but frankly, it's still madness.
Has ANY of the "investigating committees" actually been able to do ANYTHING other than political grandstand? If the dems had actually been focused on holding to their ideals and getting their votes done rather than waste our taxpayer money on pointless exercises that produce no real results (unless you count publicity), they may not have wasted the last few years.
Such committees have done NOTHING. All they do is provide platforms for speeches and "questions" which the speaker doesn't care about any findings or answers, just their own political position.
At least they're not screwing anything up when they do this, they're just spinning their wheels.
If they, then they will be labled a "do nothing congress". By sending bills to the president they know will vetoed they are able to propose much stronger bills than they would be really comfortable with, have them Vetoed, have the Bill & the Veto to talk about during the campaign. Then next year they can quietly pass a weeker bill and no one will notice.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
This is a great idea as we all know that Bush & Co. have been doing all kinds of rapacious acts behind closed doors, from political prosecutions (as in the US Attorney scandal) to others making money off of their political associations. I'm sure we will find that Bush & his cronies were using those unfettered investigations for political purposes, to help them win difficult elections. Does the United States need any more evidence of the deeply-based corruption that lies at the beating heart of the Republican party? They are rich people trying to stay rich, nothing more.
Not being from New York I didn't know much about the man, so I checked, and it turns out he's a Democrat. So ever since yesterday I've been wondering if this was an attempt to bring down the Democratic Governor of a key state, like they did in Alabama. I'll be curious to see how much media complacency there is in the New York case.
This is not my sandwich.
Bush & Co. have been doing all kinds of rapacious acts - Dubya himself, helped by the Secret Service tried to break into my house last week to steal my children so he and Dick can sell them to white slave traders so they can stay rich. When I tried to report this to my local police, they refused to take a report; said it didn't happen.
I'd like to point out that the last sentence is pretty much true of both parties. People tend to forget that politicians in the Democrat party are also fabulously rich, and are magically "Just like us" because they're a Democrat. Mostly they're just angry that the Republicans got to abuse the system, and they didn't.
All this commotion about domestic spying, wire-tapping, etc. could have easily been avoided if everybody was playing by the rules and held accountable to the rules. There already exists a method for the president to issue warrant-less wiretaps within FISA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy#FISA. The big difference between the current methods and FISA is the lack of oversight. FISA requires that a warrantless wire tap is brought before a judge in closed session within 72 hours of its inception.
This means that in a "ticking time bomb" scenario, investigators have the power to tap and begin monitoring suspects before a proper warrant can be obtained. Once the surveillance has begun, investigators have 72 hours (an ample amount of time in a ticking bomb scenario) to collect evidence and present it. If there indeed is a bomb out there, the judge should have no problem issuing a proper warrant.
The current problem is this; nobody wants to play by the rules. Everybody in the intelligence community along with most of the executive branch want to play king. They want to work independently and forgo the checks and balances. It is not that uncommon for branches of government to try to gain more power so they can do their work "easily." Unfortunately, it's our civil liberties that are being stomped on.
Transparent and balanced oversight is the only thing that will cure this ill. Without a diverse and unconnected group monitoring each other, we will lose the liberties that make this country so fantastic. Sure, it's scary to think about dying in a World Trade Center type attack, but it's much more scary to live in a state with secret police secretly monitoring you. The chances of dying in a terrorist attack are vanishingly small; the chances of losing your civil liberties if laws like the Protect America Act are allowed to exist are alarmingly high.
I for one, believe that laws like the Protect America Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007 are just the thing that erode our liberty for the fleeting promise of a tiny bit of security. Without judicial or congressional oversight, who polices the police? The answer is scary and we only need to look to Peru, East Germany or any other state with Stazi like organizations for the answer.
Ben Franklin said it best over 200 years ago, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It's almost like he knew what he was doing...
This one's tricky. You have to use imaginary numbers, like eleventeen... --Hobbes
In fact, 'Bush & Co.' will leave the White House significantly poorer than the previous Administration who received all kinds of payments for things like pardons, government subsidized loans, putting friends up in the White House, and selling White House furniture and flatware. Al Gore alone is worth two hundred million these days, more than the entire administration combined.
I wouldn't oppose this kind of investigation if there were any legal standing for a complaint. But it's been quite clear for years now that what Democrats refer to as 'domestic spying' includes phone calls that route through the US but whose endpoints are both foreign and made by non-citizens. The Constitutional protections of due process were not intended to protect these calls any more than they protected the Soviets and Nazis internal communications.
Even with all of that, I could accept that it's the prerogative of the party in power to cudgel the party not in power if only Congress wasn't still trying to finish last year's budgets. They've accomplished nothing so far and they're not even doing that well.
First, the nation's business, THEN play self-indignant party apparatchik.
#-#
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A rough road leads to the stars
They are rich people trying to stay rich, nothing more.
Nothing wrong with rich people trying to stay rich. The problem occurs when they are rich people trying to stay rich at your expense.
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
Hold on cowboy, for the first six years of Bush's reign, they held on to both houses of congress and there were no investigations of the Bush Administration. And I must disagree with your blanket whitewash of the Bushies. I think getting us into a war on the basis of false information is a pretty big stain on this administration. Your statement better applies to Bill Clinton, who was indeed investigated to the hilt with the only result being that he was caught with Monica. There was never shown an example of Clinton enriching himself or any of his friends during his time. Bush, however, and Halliburton? I think it is really obvious that Bush is dishonest and corrupt. But we will wait for history to judge.
I gotta agree with another poster. This just smacks of posturing, an effort to grab some sort of "positive" attention from the negativity of the Democratic candidates and cast a bad light on the GOP (as if they needed help!). We have more important things to spend time on, like addressing gas prices or how to tell private sports leagues how to run their drug testing programs.
Bearded Dragon
If I was naive, I'd say it's because they're idealistic and feel the must do the right thing. However, I'm cynical, and believe it is because they want the next president to be a democrat, so they're forcing republicans to reveal some of their shadier motives. Honestly, though, I really don't think I blame them...
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
That the House even put something like this out there at all. If we hadn't been sending many, passionate letters demanding Congress deny amnesty to the telcos for illegally spying on us, then they wouldn't have bothered to float this proposal.
So to all those out there who think that there's nothing anyone can do to change the course of government, this is evidence you can; you just have to take a little time to write a letter or make a phone call to your representative.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
The administration's instinct to strip away our freedoms in the name of desperate fear is misguided. Rather, we should be supportive of people in the middle east who are growing weary of being ruled by fundamentalist Islam. Fundamentalism, whether Islamic, Christian, or otherwise is fine for those folks who self select into it but it is tyranny when it gains the backing of coercive power.
This article is about one Sheikh in Saudi Arabia who is tired of being bullied by fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia. The US should invest 1.0% of its current Iraq war budget in people like him rather than creating converts to funadmentalist Islam with our war in Iraq. Nurture a moderate alternative and fundamentalism will remain small.
There's the problem. This congress was put into office to deal with two things - spending and immigration - NOT corruption. All it appears they've been doing is trying to "deal with corruption" and the populace has gotten more and more disgusted.
Too bad that despite eight years of intense scrutiny, multi-million dollar bounties, and boundless efforts to fabricate evidence, no attempt to show that this Administration has flagrantly broken the law, let alone for the purpose of self-enrichment, has succeeded. This idiotic expenditure of congressional calendar and of taxpayer money won't either. Haliburton has received fewer no-bid contracts under Bush than they did under Clinton.
Okay, first of all, as the earlier response mentioned, Congress has only been in the Democrats hands for a couple of years. During the time that the Republicans were in control, there was virtually no oversight of the administration. When the Democrats did gain control, they have razor thin margins in both houses. I will admit that occasionally there is grandstanding, but at least they are trying to do some of the oversight that is spelled out in the Constitution. And I believe that your "efforts to fabricate evidence" needs a big fat citation needed.
Also worth mentioning is the size of those Haliburton no-bid contracts. It means nothing for the pure numbers of contracts if the size of those contracts are not the same. A wartime budget surely is higher in price than the previous contracts they may have gotten.
In fact, 'Bush & Co.' will leave the White House significantly poorer than the previous Administration who received all kinds of payments for things like pardons, government subsidized loans, putting friends up in the White House, and selling White House furniture and flatware. Al Gore alone is worth two hundred million these days, more than the entire administration combined.
Again, citation needed please. Plus, let's just wait to see what "W" does in his last few days in office. That's traditionally when previous Presidents have handed out their bulk of pardons.
I wouldn't oppose this kind of investigation if there were any legal standing for a complaint. But it's been quite clear for years now that what Democrats refer to as 'domestic spying' includes phone calls that route through the US but whose endpoints are both foreign and made by non-citizens. The Constitutional protections of due process were not intended to protect these calls any more than they protected the Soviets and Nazis internal communications.
Once again, please cite where you get this kind of classification for domestic spying. One of the main arguments the Democrats have had against expanded wiretap authority has been the availability of the FISA courts which in the past has worked quickly, efficiently and rarely if ever turns down a legitimate request. It sounds to me that this description of the Democrats stance on domestic spying is the product of the echo chamber of conservative radio and pundits.
Even with all of that, I could accept that it's the prerogative of the party in power to cudgel the party not in power if only Congress wasn't still trying to finish last year's budgets. They've accomplished nothing so far and they're not even doing that well.
First, the nation's business, THEN play self-indignant party apparatchik.
Let's not forget that the Republican congress two years ago, in the final months before they lost control of Congress decided to go into recess early and not finish the budget at all during their calendar year. This action unnecessarily passed responsibility of the previous Congress onto the incoming Congress. They could have done the nation's business, they could have passed budget items the nation needed, but instead decided to pick up camp stakes and go home.
However, the current problem with government is that they have forgotten how to govern. Part of that responsibility is the ability and the necessity to compromise. However, with hard-nose tactics and frequent grandstanding by both parties, the very thought that just this Congressional session is a do-nothing Congress full of grandstanding is just not seeing the Congress over the last fifteen years.
The fuck you say? I voted for my Senateweasel because she was not a Republican and therefore would not enable the Decider. I was very conscious of Republican corruption and abuses when I made that decision.
Unfortunately she sided with the fascists on illegal wiretapping and telecom immunity, so I won't be voting for McCaskill in four years.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
A comment above says that you should look at people's actions, not their words.
McCain voted AGAINST banning torture. He says he is against torture, but when it came to a vote, he vote to allow it.