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Scholarships From FOSS Organizations?
Athaulf writes "I'm a high school kid with big dreams of prestigious technology schools like MIT or Cal-Tech. The problem is, my upper-middle class family had more down to Earth plans for me and my college choices (about $30,000/year more down to Earth, actually), so financial aid and college savings won't come anywhere near MIT's price tag. However, I've been programming in C for a while now, and might release a GPL'd Linux app soon. With this self-taught programming experience, academic merit, and plenty of extra curricular activities, are there any FOSS supporting organizations who might grant me a scholarship for my contributions? Do companies like Google or Red-Hat offer scholarships to big name schools in return for a few years of work after college?"
They'll pay your tuition... then they'll send you someplace where people shoot at you.
Hmmmmm... maybe join the Canadian Army instead.
According to their website, MIT's tuition is 35K/yr + 10k in housing. If your parents will foot 30k, that's only 15k year you need to pay. I'd say that's a good deal for an education that'll keep paying you after you graduate.
If you think that's too much, go to a good community college for the first two years, transfer, and still get that MIT degree. The introductory classes are generally taught better at some of these places.
Or, most states schools have great programs, diverse people, and provide excellent education.
And no, counting cards will not pay your tuition.
In Soviet Russia, articles before post read *you*!
The problem is, my upper-middle class family had more down to Earth plans for me and my college choices (about $30,000/year more down to Earth, actually), so financial aid and college savings won't come anywhere near MIT's price tag.
MIT's website says financial aid is guaranteed for admitted students.
http://web.mit.edu/sfs/financial_aid/mitgo_undergrad.html
I suppose I don't have an answer to the original question, but get their financial aid folks on the horn and see what they have in the way of work study, internships, etc. Whatever you got back on your FAFSA probably isn't the last word in the matter.
If you go to say, Sweden, there will be no tuition fees. You have two decent Unis there: The Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm and the Chalmers Institute of Technology in Gothenburg. You may also check out DTU in Denmark and the unis in Aachen and Dresden (Germany).
In a lot of European states you can get away with 0 in tuition fees or a very moderate fee of a 1000 per year. For $30k / year you can live a very comfortable life as a student in Europe.
Also, having studied abroad is something that would look very good on your CV.
MIT is outrageously expensive, but will have no effect in determining to an employer that your a better candidate than someone at any other 4-year accredited university. But you don't want to be just a guy with a degree. You want to be a guy with an MIT degree.
I'm not sure what CS guys get at MIT that they won't be eligible to find at any other college. But if you work your ass of at any other college, with the grades and extras to prove it, I don't see how it matters.
Unless of course you just want to get the "MIT" label for the brand name.
... you'd already released some code. One of the really cool things about code versioning systems is that you can look back over how your project has developed, and see how old bits of code are. This gives you a useful-but-scary indication of how much your programming is improving, the more you do it ;-)
It's easy to get your Free software out there. It would probably look better if you had something you could show prospective sponsors, and this is where the versioning comes in. If you've got a horking great Subversion repository full of your code, with maybe a few checkins a day, then it shows the process by which you work. It's like showing your working on a maths problem - if you get the answer right but don't show your working, you won't get full marks. If you show your working and get the answer wrong, quite often you'll get fairly good marks anyway if the working is right but the mistake was a little arithmetical slip.
So in short, show them the code. And let us know if it gets you into college.
OK, first off, to OP: money isn't everything, and if you really think that your education didn't give you anything but technical skills, then you obviously didn't get out of college what I an most the folks I know are or did. College is a time to learn to think critically and to learn a variety of different subjects. You'll never quite get that chance again.
Secondly, to the question: MIT gives full financial aid, based on what they think your parents can afford to pay. Yeah, you might end up paying a bit more a year than a $10,000 a year state school once you get finaid from them, but then again maybe not, and for the education you'll get at MIT and the people you'll meet there, it will be worth it. I go to a school that costs more than MIT and my parents make less than 100k a year (well less), and I got through the first two years of school without loans. This brings up my second point to you: don't look at loans as a bad thing. Look at them as an investment in yourself. If you come out of MIT with an engineering degree, you can easily be making a high five or low six figures straight out of college. You'll pay off your loans in a year or two at that pace. Well worth it.
Personally, I'd suggest looking at not just MIT, too. I was a CS major for my first two years here at my school (oh fuck it, I go to Yale, just so you know, I don't know why we always beat around the bush here), and there is a great, theoretical program. However, I found that while I enjoy programming, computer science is something completely different from programming, and decided to change my major to Linguistics. It's wonderful the large range of possibilities a school like Yale or Stanford or Brown can give to you. Don't confine yourself to a technical school, especially if you already have a lot of technical skills.
Let's see. What other advice besides don't worry about money and try to broaden your horizons? Get an on-campus job, you'd be surprised how well some of them pay (I get $13.50 an hour to fix computers and sit at shifts doing homework and helping folks who need it if they ask), get loans, go to a school that gives good financial aid, and you'll graduate, get a great job, and not have to worry about the pittance in loans you have. Go abroad, go to lectures, take advantage of any alumni networks you can get on, especially if they're related to a group or club you are in, just take advantage of the resources your university offers you as much as you can. And even if you don't end up going to a top-tier school, all this will still hold true.
Best of luck. If you want to talk to me at all, feel free to PM me.
Wow, I'm somewhat appalled by the acerbic replies to this post. There's a post or two saying that education doesn't get you anything, and while I tend to agree because college didn't work for me, that's no reason to tell someone not to go. I spent 6 years in crappy jobs that I probably wouldn't have had to endure had I gone to Insert College Here instead of the school of hard knocks. Then there's the dedication factor. Many employers want to see a 4 year degree simply because it shows that 4 Year Degree kid had enough drive and dedication to see it through. As for MIT vs. another college... If I were a hiring manager and all other things were equal (skills, interview prowess, etc) I would almost definitely hire the person who had a degree from a well known, highly respected school over Generic University. NOTHING beats experience, but don't knock a kid for trying to "do it right."
sure, money isn't EVERYTHING, but it's about 90% of it. when your all grown up and have a house and other responsibilites like a family, you'll learn you'd happily shovel shit for a living if it paid the right money.
and call me jaded, but even in my day critical thinking was dead in college.
i'd also like to point out that "you can easily be making a high five or low six figures straight out of college" is bullcrap and won't happen. you'll have to go into a graduate program after getting your engineering degree, where they will teach you how things are really done and pay you shit money for the pleasure.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Might? By the time I finished high school, I had released at least 3 GPL'd programs that were entirely my own work, a 3-clause BSDL'd one, a couple of scripts dedicated to the public domain, and a several patches to existing free software. Nobody sent me to an ivy-league school.
You're going to have to do better than "I might release a GPL'd app someday" if you want to convince the people here that you're the unique snowflake you claim to be. And remember: even if you're brilliant, why should anyone put you through school? What's the payoff for them?
http://outcampaign.org/
Perhaps I am just a "college kid". However, the majority of my friends are actually out of college, many of them married with children, so I feel that I have at least a little bit of perspective on this. I know plenty of them who got 6 figures or a high 5 figures out of college, even 5 years ago.
Also, as far as anyone has ever told me and I've ever seen, grad school for engineering and ESPECIALLY for CS is completely worthless for getting a job, and is done almost only by those who wish to go into academia. Sure, 2 years of Business school might be required after 5 or so years in the work force in order to get a managerial position that really pays bank, but that's far in the future. Places like MS and Google and Yahoo! are hiring kids out of my school at 75k or more a year for software engineering jobs (there is obviously a variance, and some jobs get a lower salary).
Finally, I'm sorry critical thinking was dead at your college, but that is not the case here, and does not seem to be the case at many of the colleges my friends go to. Quite honestly, that seems to be one of the largest differences between some of the "better" schools and some of the lesser-known schools, which is just a sense I get from talking to my few high school friends who went to Ivy or equivalent schools and comparing our experiences to those who went elsewhere. It's not to say that they're not getting good educations, but that level of critical thinking, especially outside of classes, largely seems to be lacking, making some of them really unhappy.
one other point i want to make about places like google and MS, they seem like awesome places to work, giving you free lunches and rides to and from work. that is until you realise it's a trap so you don't notice the 70 hour working week. trades make significantly more money (atleast here in AU they do). i make 6 figures now all up, but friends of mine that did electrical trades are on 2x what i'm on.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Also, as far as anyone has ever told me and I've ever seen, grad school for engineering and ESPECIALLY for CS is completely worthless for getting a job, and is done almost only by those who wish to go into academia.
That's funny. That's really funny. Google (who you mention below) has a minimum of a BS in computer science, but recommends a MS and a Ph.D. is a big plus. I would wager that you really don't know what you're talking about here.
Sure, 2 years of Business school might be required after 5 or so years in the work force in order to get a managerial position that really pays bank, but that's far in the future. Places like MS and Google and Yahoo! are hiring kids out of my school at 75k or more a year for software engineering jobs (there is obviously a variance, and some jobs get a lower salary).
Try "pretty much all jobs have a lower salary." Expecting 75K+ straight out of college is ludicrous unless you have some sort of proven track record that shows you aren't just another college graduate. For someone leaving school with a master's, I'd buy 75K+ (but that'd still be a huge stretch). Same for a Ph.D. Not some kid with a bachelor's.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
This is a highly polarized topic. I must say, I'm a little surprised that anyone here is downplaying the importance of MIT vs. a less prestigious school (or even no college at all). I'll give you my two cents. I'm 15+ years in the industry (INFOSEC mostly), deep into 6 figures now, was making $80k at 26 years of age. I dropped out of school after a year and a half. I'm slowly finishing my degree, but on my terms and someone else's dime. If someone wants to see the 'piece of paper', they'll foot the bill. Period. My year and a half in school (a prestigious private institution) was a farce. I didn't leave due to too much partying or lack of funds. On the contrary, I had a decent job outside of school that allowed me to pay the exorbitant tuition. I left because the cost/benefit analysis said to. Sorry, but in the end it really is just a piece of paper. The meat of what you'll do for a living is going to be learned in the classroom of experience. Would I be regarded more highly if I had a degree from MIT? Of course! I'm not going to kid you; MIT would have never accepted me. On the flip side, would I be making any more than I am now if I had graduated from MIT, Yale, etc? No way. I work with folks who did in fact graduate from such institutions and where there is a difference in salary, they have some catching up to do. You will be happy if you make a living doing what you love. If you're intelligent and good (very good) at what you love and that 'thing' you do is valuable in the marketplace...then you'll make a very good living; MIT diploma or no. Save your money. If you're really as good as you think you are (so good that a company like Google should want to invest six figures into you for the promise that your awesomeness will come work for them (uhhhhh...yeah)) then you'll have no problems. Get the quickest degree you can from an accredited institution then get to the real learning. The exception to all this would be if your goal is to go into research...in which case you can ignore all of my advice. Just my two cents...many others will disagree whole heartedly.
2. My brother could never find financial aid, and scholarships only go so far.
I know two or three people offhand who funded their entire education through scholarships they applied to outside of their educational institute's financial aid office. It's very doable.
4. I'm not saying that I haven't considered public schools; I simply much prefer a school that I'm not in the top 1% of math SAT scores. If that sounds arrogant I apologize, but I'm just tired of going to schools like my high school that don't have a *single* person (student or otherwise) who knows C.
Oh, please. Don't be a fucking douchebag if you can at all help it. "Wah, wah, I am so smart!" You will find people at any institution who will kick your ass up and down the road and know much, much, much more than you do about what you proclaim to be good at; you will find people who are far hotter shit than you are or ever will be. It doesn't matter where you go, this will be the case.
"Oh, no, nobody in my high school knows C! I am adrift in a sea of stupidity!" Grow up.
5. I want to go to MIT because I think that I can learn something about programming from other students and teachers (the computer programming class is taught with JavaScript and teachers certified by a one day course) for the first time in my life.
You can do that at any university. Hell, MIT's learning materials are given away for free. Do you want to learn, or do you want the little piece of paper?
7. Yes, I was about to call the MIT admissions office, but my mother brought up the argument "don't even try, we won't have the money for that", hence this ask slashdot article.
Your mother is a moron, and you shouldn't be listening to her when it comes to this.
8. I want to find scholarships from FOSS organizations because I want to support the community and working for a FOSS company would be a dream come true. I love Linux and free software, and would be proud to put some time into the cause.
"Work" is the exchange of your time for their money, and if they want you to fuck up a Holy Sacred GPL Project because it suits your purposes, you do it or you get fired. You need a cluestick to the head or need to learn about the real world. It's not a cause, it's an operating system and a style of releasing software.
9. I hate to respond to my own article, but I felt like I needed to clear up a few things.
Frankly, you just make yourself look like more of an ass. You're in plentiful, if not good, company, though--you sound like half the kids in my school's CS department.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Oh my god give me a fucking break. The kid wants to find out of there are options to help him go to the college he wants to go to, and you are jumping down his throat because you don't think he's going to be earning his chops like you did? Sounds like 'sour grapes' to me. M.I.T. is a very good computer science institution, maybe the kid will end up being one of the great researchers of the 21st century and contribute to the field.
Why don't you just answer his question instead of spouting off about how much better your way of doing things is? What, you don't have an answer to his question because instead of going to a good school you fucked around with a "Berufsmatur" instead? Well then shut the fuck up.
O how sweet.
Here is one significant quote from it:
DO NOT let lack of money dissuade you from what you want to do. That breads resentment and bitterness. Do it, do it well, and the money will come.
I went to MIT. I hate it when people assume that you have to be rich to go there, or make comments like "my parents couldn't afford that." That isn't a reason to not even try. I'm not sure about the original poster's financial status (upper middle class can be a big range), but MIT recently announced it will be tuition free for those families making $75000 or less.
And the name does make a difference. I got my first job due to it (poor match in the end, but that is another story). Many employers see it as a short cut to the type of person you are. You *will* get a good job if you went to another school, especially if you are good (goodness will always override name in the end), but as other posters have mentioned the fact that you are surrounded by smart and clever people kicks your own performance up a notch. Being able to see exactly what you are capable of and find and notice your limits is an amazing experience. I wouldn't trade my time at MIT for the world, despite 4 years of complaining about the workload, the pressure and the frosh.
This was a quote of Kurt Vonnegut that didn't fit.
Beyond that, there is something to be said for a formal education. I was "self taught" in high school also, and thought that I would be able to handle any problem. I couldn't have been more wrong, and in my senior year of high school, when I began taking real CS courses, I learned things that I would never have grasped without a teacher. The sort of things I am studying now can't be "self taught," because in at least one case I am learning it directly from the researcher who made the discovery. Overall, a formal education not only provided me with new ways of thinking about my majors and related fields, but it also broadened my ability to solve problems, both in terms of scope and approach.
Going directly into trade after high school is a waste of time and of talent. Is college expensive? Unfortunately, yes. Is it worth the expense? Absolutely.
Palm trees and 8
That's because he's bought into the PHB mindset - he'll outsource all that "critical thinking stuff".
One thing nobody's mentioned yet is that people with a BS in CS are FUBAR'd if they're just coming onto the job market in a declining economy. Between outsourcing, contracting, and plain old cutbacks/layoffs, doesn't matter what "name" university you went to ... but the debt associated with that "name" university makes your monthly nut that much harder to crack.
It may also make you less, not more, employable, since employers will figure that you'll either want more $$$ to start with, or will quickly jump ship for more $$$ once you have a year's "real world experience" under your belt. Both of these are negatives, which is why you see people with a couple of decades experience "dumbing down" their resumes when they get tired of what they're doing and want to change their speciation.
Old school advice...
... The more educated you are the more indoctrinated you are. And you believe you are being free and objective, whereas in fact you're just repeating state propaganda."
First of all, school up to the PhD is a pyramid scheme (currently failing):
"The Big Crunch" by David Goodstein (Vice Provost CalTech)
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html
The end result is "disciplined minds" who will not step out of line politically:
http://disciplined-minds.com/
Or journalistically:
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20051207.htm
"By the time you've gone through, you know, Oxford and Cambridge and here you could say Harvard and Princeton and so on, and even less fancy places, you have instilled into you the understanding that there are certain things that just wouldn't do to say, and that's what a good deal of education is. So the people who come out of it - and there are many filters, if people go off and try to be too critical there are many ways of discouraging them or eliminating them one way or the other. Some get through, it's not a uniform story.
The reason schooling exists in its current form is to teach these seven lessons:
"The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher" by John Taylor Gatto - 1991 New York State Teacher of the Year
http://hometown.aol.com/tma68/7lesson.htm
in order to prepare most people for a life of servitude to the military or factories (and to not be very thoughtful about consumption or politics either).
"The Prussian Connection" -- Gatto
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/7a.htm
And from:
"A conversation with historian and author James Loewen. Sort of."
http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/archives/18/loewen.html
"We like to believe schooling is a good thing. But when it comes to understanding any problem with historical roots, we might expect that the more traditional schooling in history that Americans have, the less they will understand it. Students who have taken math courses are better at math. The same is true for English, foreign languages, and almost every other subject. But in history, stupidity is the result of more, not less, schooling."
Still, studies have shown that the only people who really get economic value out of an Ivy League degree or equivalent are those from lower middle class backgrounds. All other things being equal, for most other people it's not worth the money as an investment. See the book "Class" for some other details:
http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253
Otherwise, consider:
"College is a Waste of Time and Money" (1975)
http://www.grossmont.edu/bertdill/docs/CollegeWaste.pdf
"College, then, may be a good place for those few young people who are really drawn to academic work, who would rather read than eat, but it has become too expensive, in money, time, and intellectual effort to serve as a holding pen for large numbers of our young. We ought to make it possible for those reluctant, unhappy students to find alternative ways of growing up, and more realistic preparation for the years ahead."
And consider those years ahead following Moore's Law will include computers 10000X faster than what we have now for the same price in 20 or so years.
http://www.transhumanis
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
You may want to look into MIT again. They just announced a couple of weeks ago that students from families that earn less than $75k/yr. will not have to pay tuition. They've also changed the factors they look at to determine financial aid for other income levels:
Fin. Aid Boosted; No Tuition For Families Earning Under $75K
MIT has also always had a policy of basically, "You get in, and we'll help you figure out how to afford it."
A couple more things:
Disclaimer: I graduated from MIT, and would not trade that experience for anything.
Also, as far as anyone has ever told me and I've ever seen, grad school for engineering and ESPECIALLY for CS is completely worthless for getting a job, and is done almost only by those who wish to go into academia.
As someone who works for a large tech company, let me just say that you've been very misled. The differences aren't immediately obvious, but you need to think a little bit beyond starting salary.
Promotion ceiling. You may start off with a salary that's only 10-15k below someone with an MS, but I have encountered a large number of people who have gone back to school because they can't get promoted without a better degree. In fact, I can't think of anyone I know that's over the age of 35 and doesn't have at least an MS. A large number went back to school after they had kids and continually grumbled about how hard it was with a family.
Job types. Those with BS's are much more likely to find themselves in a low-level position - implementation, support, bug fixing. People with graduate degrees are more likely to be in the design and project lead positions. Not only is this a factor in the promotion issue I already raised, but who do you think is easier to outsource? When times are tough, who are they going to lay off?
Just to emphasize the point, I was planning on stopping with my BS when the .com bust happened, and ended up going back to grad school at a Big 10 university. Applications for graduate schools in 2002 and 2003 were extremely high. High enough that schools were caught off guard when people who they expected to get in to MIT, CMU, Berkeley, etc ended up accepting their offers. Enough accepted that I heard many stories of schools that were overcommitted for financial aid. Unfortunately, I only have one data point for the mixture that were returning students, but around 20-25% of our class were people who had been in successful IT jobs and had gone back to grad school because they had trouble finding jobs. It led to an interesting mix of professional and academic experience.
Now, does this mean that you can't be successful with just a BS? No. Heck, I knew a kid out of high school that was pulling in over 100k managing IT for some small company during the .dot boom. But, he eventually went back to school too.
My point though is that if you want better job security, you want more freedom of action and responsibility, and a better likelihood of higher pay in the long run, the 24 credit hours for the MS is well worth it.
The greatest gift your parents can give you is NOT PAYING FOR YOUR COLLEGE.
Go to MIT. Get loans. They'll have low interest rates. Pay them off as SLOWLY as you can. Having a degree from MIT on your resume will pay for your investment in 10 years or so. You'll get aid, you'll get loans, you'll get a JOB and you'll afford it just fine
Remember that high housing costs mean high labor costs -- which means the hourly you get for labor in Boston will be higher than you expect. Get skilled labor jobs. Avoid working on campus unless the job helps you academically (meaning in the lab of a person you're learning from). Never work for a faculty member who starts off pointing out that working for him or her will get you a great recommendation which will open doors for you. Such people are weasels, and will screw you.
Stop looking to your parents. Stop trying to figure out how some third party will pay for it. Go directly to the school and deal with them. They'll help a lot. The rest you'll either pay for immediately from your wages or loans, and it'll be FINE.
My own story agrees with you here. Nobody pays huge money for the unproven person, unless university, in that employer's mind, is proof enough. That's hard to find, though.
When I started working, I started off at $38k as a programmer trainee. Within 6 months I was promoted and got a $5k increase. Since then, I've made 30-60% jumps every time I changed jobs. Now that I'm toward the top of the programmer pay scale, I've gone into management because there's a higher ceiling. The key is to keep moving, learning new things, and don't get too stuck to any one thing because it'll limit you.
The point is that people shouldn't expect to get top-of-the-market rates right out of school. There's a reason those rates are top of the market, and they're reserved for the best in the field -- which most college kids aren't. What you can expect is that, if you work hard, you'll move up pretty quickly.
A side note regarding my comment about about not getting stuck on any one thing. There will be people here who say they program for the love of it, not for the money, and that money isn't everything. Great. Fine. There's no problem with that, if those are your priorities. Some people do it for the money, and that's what I'm talking about. I go to work for the money, and no matter what I do there, I want the most money possible for the time I spend there. If that means I'm in meetings all day and don't write a single line of code, that's ok. I fulfill my love of programming and try to stay sharp by working on little open source apps at home and some side consulting. It's not an either-or proposition.
Funny ... I never went to college, and have a 6 figure salary, married, and enough 401k money to live on my current salary and never touch principle. And I didn't waste tens (hundreds??) of thousands of dollars in the process (why would any smart person do that?). Instead, I got my ass into the work force right out of high school, and got my employers to pay for the courses I needed to do my job. I was only an office clerk for two years before being moved into IT. I took advantage of every opportunity that presented it self to learn more on the job and take on more responsibility, no matter how 'beneath' me it was. I became an employee that my various companies knew would take on any task and get it done, not whine about not having the right tools or enough people or a thousand other excuses.
.. not true. I went to college for one semester, and after I did the math realized what a waste of money it was. I was very disappointed in the number of stupid people who went there because they were either sons and daughters of parents who could afford it, or got some worthless athletic scholarship. The truly smart scholars were few and far between.
... do yourself a favor and pay attention in high school. It's all you really need if you're smart. You don't want to work for a company that says 'college degree required', they put people into little boxes instead of finding the value in individuals.
... if you WANT to go to college to learn, go for it. Learning is a wonderful thing. But don't buy into to the degree programs. Learn what you want to learn, not what they tell you that you have to learn. Talk to people outside of college and learn what is important. Colleges are businesses, they have other interests than yours in mind when they come up with a curriculum.
Ok
If you're smart, you're smart and don't need college full time. If you're not, the college degree gets you past the HR screener to someone that can figure out whether or you have some skills they might be interested in.
I'm also fucking tired of college kids trying to justify their waste of money by saying 'we are well rounded' or 'we learned critical thinking'. No one gives a crap about that. Can you write code with any degree of skill?? That's all I care about.
To all the CS majors out there, I need someone that can take an 8 year old program that no one has touched in years and the original author is gone, find all the missing header files, get it compiled and fixed. Today. Not next week, today. You don't get to work on the fun stuff the day you start working. Get over it. I need someone with debugging skills and the humbleness to listen when I tell them 'you really don't want to code it that way' and present a more maintainable and stable alternative. Not some crap your college professor thinks works. I'll give you an opportunity to explain why you want to do it, but the end result is I have 20 other developers and I need all the programs to be maintainable, not some creative crap.
To all the high school kids out there
All that said
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.