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South African Minister Locks Horns With Microsoft

naheiw writes "The South African minister of public service and administration on Monday addressed the opening of the Idlelo 3 free software conference in Dakar, Senegal, saying that software patents posed a considerable threat to the growth of the African software sector (video). Microsoft responded aggressively, saying that 'there is no such thing as free software. Nobody develops software for charity.'"

78 of 325 comments (clear)

  1. freshmeat.net? sourceforge anybody? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    are they smoking micro-crack again?

    1. Re:freshmeat.net? sourceforge anybody? by psychodelicacy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Depends on how you define "free", doesn't it?

      If I donate goods to charity, they get those goods without paying me money in return. If I give a gift to a friend, they also get goods without giving money in return. Those goods may have been paid for with my money, which was given to me by my employers, which comes from my employers' profits from their customers. I may be repaid with friendship or a good feeling in my heart. But that doesn't make the gift non-free at the point of donation. Similarly, when I download free (as in beer) software, the fact that I don't ever have to pay any money to use it makes it free for download, even though someone may have been paid to produce it or done so whilst subsidised by their parents. I may give the producers publicity, my thanks, my love and attention, but I don't give them money. If Microsoft claims that there is no such thing as software for which users don't have to pay money, they're blatantly wrong. If they claim that software is never produced without using time or resources which could otherwise be making money, perhaps they have a better case.

      --
      A closed mouth gathers no foot.
    2. Re:freshmeat.net? sourceforge anybody? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference is that software, like ideas, can be copied with very little cost attached. Think of it like this: you donate goods to charity, BUT GET TO KEEP THE GOODS TOO. This way, you are no worse off for the charity having the goods, but they are richer. If you talk about the cost of developing the software, that is easy to amortize as long as someone thought it worthwhile to pay for that development for personal gain. So the charity use becomes a free side-benefit.

      Now, Microsoft is using this argument to say that the software isn't being produced for a charity... it is being produced for profit. That's all fine and dandy, but if the software is being produced for personal gain, patents aren't needed -- other people having your software and modifying it won't make the software any less useful to you or make your profits based on that software any less.

  2. Where is Stallman? by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The growth of Free Software in Africa could be encouraged were Stallman to visit the area. His visit to India was enormously successful. Would that we have a better and more cheaply available biography of the man and his vision (O'Reilly's Free as in Freedom is good, but could be better) that could be distributed to influential figures in the African IT world.

    1. Re:Where is Stallman? by st0nes · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ubuntu is, or was initially, an African distro. It is, AFAIK, the only distro with extensive African language translations. The South African government is committed to open source in all state departments including education and is actively migrating its proprietary software to open source http://www.ioltechnology.co.za/article_page.php?iSectionId=2888&iArticleId=3695987. It will only allow proprietary where there is no open source equivalent, which explains why MS is upset. South Africa may not be a large market by MS's standards, but the government's stance is already having a knock-on effect with some large industry players opting for open source as well. http://www.tectonic.co.za/wordpress/?p=1562&src=digg

      --
      Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis
  3. Nobody by Ricin · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Nobody develops software for charity"

    Hello, my name is Nobody. You know, the one that's prefect. Same dude.

    1. Re:Nobody by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My jaw dropped too to see that South African Microsoft executive claim that. I've done a few transcriptions for CastingWords of recordings of discussions among Microsoft figures, and it's amazing how out of touch they are with the Free Software world. Granted, if you are working at Microsoft you are probably ideologically against the Free Software crowd, but most geeks are curious about other software projects going on just to get fresh coding perspectives--Jobs took a lot from PARC, for example. Microsoft just exists in its own little bubble.

    2. Re:Nobody by Kamokazi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, they *kind of* have a point.

      I would be willing to bet the vast majority of FOSS developers are working on stuff they actually use, so it's not entirely for charity.

      I guess it's just worded with enough wiggle room that they can back out of it later and claim that's not what they meant. It really is stupid for them to say something like this, when there are thousands of people who develop great free software for Windows. I wouldn't be suprised if some people developing cross-platform stop releasing Windows binaries because of brash statements like this.

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    3. Re:Nobody by erroneus · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...just to add to what you've written:

      It's a BIG bubble, a THICK bubble, and it doesn't show signs of bursting just yet. I am, however, attempting to make Bill Gates's head explode with the powers of my mind... which also shows no sign of bursting.

    4. Re:Nobody by Trails · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You've *kind of* touched on an important point. ;)

      The Minister slammed software patents. Microsoft is slamming FOSS. While MS's slam, in and of itself, is flawed, it's also somewhat irrelevant. A piece of software that isn't patented isn't necessarily FOSS.

      Consider the one-click buying patent, a favourite whipping boy(rightly so). This could be implemented with .NET, silverlight, VBScript, MSSQL, on windows server 2003, and not patented.

      The MS exec is trying to make a flawed implication(that absence of software patents == FOSS), because they think it helps their argument. That it doesn't help their argument is part and parcel to MS's failure to understand the FOSS movement.

      In other words, MS is doubly wrong, and Linux pwns Steve Ballmer in the ear.

    5. Re:Nobody by Weedlekin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The Minister slammed software patents. Microsoft is slamming FOSS. While MS's slam, in and of itself, is flawed, it's also somewhat irrelevant."

      In other words, it's a straw man, and given the nature of the majority of responses here, it's succeeded admirably in getting lots of geeks beating at it with their FOSS sticks.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    6. Re:Nobody by Darby · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hello, my name is Nobody. You know, the one that's prefect. Same dude.

      I thought that was Ford

  4. Well, they're right, and wrong, I guess by ashridah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Okay, so in the strictest sense of the terms, he's probably right. Software development isn't a charity.

    Free Software (GPL/LGPL) is definitely not a charity, it's a give and take trading system. You put in, and you get out, and it largely self-improves through feedback, patches, bug reports, etc.

    BSD comes closer, but still required attribution in the past, and of course, the developers were (back in the day) originally producing it as part of various university projects (ie, they get status in return), and more recently, are developing it as for-profit work, but are releasing it. Again, not charity.

    That said, whether the argument's been taken out of context, or is accurate in other ways is another matter.

    1. Re:Well, they're right, and wrong, I guess by CRCulver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Free Software (GPL/LGPL) is definitely not a charity

      By "charity", I assume that the idea is that someone writes software with the hope of social change with no guarantee he will himself financially benefit from it. Certainly that idea has been widespread in the Free Software world, from Stallman's early dreams to even (funny how this has now gone a complete 180) Miguel de Icaza's founding of GNOME to benefit children in his native Mexico.

    2. Re:Well, they're right, and wrong, I guess by Rhapsody+Scarlet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      BSD comes closer, but still required attribution in the past It still does require attribution, the first and second clauses of the current BSD license state exactly that. The only change in the history of the BSD license has been the removal of what rms referred to as the "obnoxious advertising clause", making it GPL-compatible.
    3. Re:Well, they're right, and wrong, I guess by grcumb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      By "charity", I assume that the idea is that someone writes software with the hope of social change with no guarantee he will himself financially benefit from it. Certainly that idea has been widespread in the Free Software world, from Stallman's early dreams to even (funny how this has now gone a complete 180) Miguel de Icaza's founding of GNOME to benefit children in his native Mexico.

      Indeed. Just because people don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening.

      Do a quick Google for 'ICT4D' - Information and Communications Technologies for Development. You'll be surprised how much work is being done by organisations big and small, and by individuals, too.

      I work almost exclusively with FOSS in Vanuatu. Small linux servers running on ancient hardware was the only way we could conceivably have brought small organisations and NGOs online when I arrived some years ago.

      The server OS we use is SME Server. I worked for the company that created this software starting back in 2000. I went to work for them specifically because of this software's suitability for use in the developing world. After I left these guys, I worked for 3 years as a volunteer using the same software (and a lot of other FOSS as well) to help people communicate electronically, often for the first time.

      FOSS is critical to development work. I've written extensively about ICT and Development. This essay explains in layman's terms why FOSS is often the right tool for the job.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  5. Equivocation by SirGarlon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In Microsoft's case I'm inclined to think they're being equivocal on purpose, implying "free as in beer" when the real topic "free as speech."

    To fight back, I think we should be calling it "freedomware" rather than "free software."

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Equivocation by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Funny

      How about "upyoursgatesandstallmanware"?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  6. Just wait by SnoopJeDi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just you wait, those hooligans with their "Open Source" will start jacking up the price, and you'll be sorry then, but I won't help you then!

  7. You damned dirty liar! by hassanchop · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nobody develops software for charity.


    Quick, someone tell these people they don't exist!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO-1#Software

  8. Disgusting by arotenbe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Microsoft responded aggressively, saying that 'there is no such thing as free software. Nobody develops software for charity.' I develop software for "charity" all the time. No one is giving me any incentive, yet I do it anyway.

    He added: "For innovation to continue, there needs to be value - and even open-source applications have some form of market model, which incentivises them to continue innovating." Excuse me while I barf.

    PS: What is the chance that the person who said that at Microsoft will be looking for a job very shortly? Having your upper management assert that they are moving toward a more open model and then having some bozo say something like this must look terrible even to the Microsoft Marketing Department (tm).
    --
    Tomato wedge sperm darts that are Republican.
    1. Re:Disgusting by falconwolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      List two software innovations (i.e. something not copied) done by the linux/hobbyist community please.

      List two software innovations done by Microsoft, done by not bought by Microsoft.

      Falcon
    2. Re:Disgusting by PeterBrett · · Score: 2, Insightful

      List two software innovations (i.e. something not copied) done by the linux/hobbyist community please.

      Easy (as long as you remember that the hobbyist/academic Free software community existed long before Linux did).

      1. Bittorrent
      2. KDE's KIO (makes the network transparent to KDE apps)
      3. TeX, LaTeX, etc
      4. Centralised application repositories (e.g. apt-get)
      5. Distributed version control systems (pioneered by Arch & Monotone)
      6. Perl
      7. IRC
      8. The World Wide Web (you cretin)

      For what it's worth, on a day to day basis I use the following applications regularly:

      • Konqueror - What's this supposed to be a clone of?
      • Emacs - What's this supposed to be a clone of?
      • Inkscape - What's this supposed to be a clone of
      • LyX - What's this supposed to be a clone of?
      • GCC - Does something count as a clone if it's still going strong when its inspiration has passed into deepest darkest history?
      • GNU Build System - What's this supposed to be a clone of?
      • Yellow dog Updater Modified - Undeniably original
      • Amarok - Inspired by XMMS, but what's it supposed to be a clone of?
      • KMail - What's this supposed to be a clone of?

      Often, Free software projects are started because an existing closed-source tool doesn't do what the author needs done. For instance, it wouldn't be logical for someone who wants to read e-mail to sit at a text editor and write their own from scratch -- they're bound to look at what's already available first, and even if nothing suitable exists, their eventual solution will have tried to cherry-pick the good parts from the existing technology.

      "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

      Finally, everyone seems to describe GIMP as a "Photoshop clone". I've never understood that at all. Is it thought of as a Photoshop clone because that is what it is? As far as I can tell, having used both, GIMP has a different user interface, a different selection of tools, and expects the user to do things in a different way. That's mighty odd for something that's supposed to be a clone of another application.

  9. "Nobody develops software for charity" by hey! · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Umm, having developed software for charities at various points in my career, I have to say that is not the case...

    Oh, wait, I am a nobody. At least so far as Microsoft is concerned. It's not that I didn't make enough money to "put food on my family", it's just that I didn't make enough to matter and I never will.

    However, the feeling is mutual. If I didn't have clients who need products delivered on MS platforms, I'd happily never touch a piece of MS software again. It's not that I'm ideologically against them, but Microsoft doesn't cater to people like me; we're not a profitable market for them. In fact, we're nobody as far as they're concerned.

    That's OK with me; the Gap doesn't offer a line of clothing for people like me; the local Evangelical church doesn't have special Sunday services for people like me either. I'm perfectly happy for each of these organizations to provide their services and wares for people who for whatever reason think they fulfill a need. We just move in orbits that, for the most part intersect.

    I think the mutual indifference thing breaks down because Microsoft wants to be everything to everybody. They want to have the one important operating system and the one important file format "standard". Since they don't intend to cater to me, the only way for that to happen is for me to have to use products that were not designed with the things I value in mind. The file format thing is a great example. What I want out of office file formats is not at all what Microsoft is prepared to give me.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  10. Some people just don't get it ... by richg74 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    there is no such thing as free software

    Like the people in the RIAA, Microsoft just doesn't get it. The fundamental issue is not about whether software development is a charity (although sometimes I think that is a motivation), but about Economics 101 and prices in a competitive market. If they had paid attention in class, they would remember that, in a competitive market, the equilibrium price is found where price = marginal cost. The marginal cost of an additional unit of any digital work is very close to zero. So MS, the RIAA, and many others are engaged in an attempt (futile in the long run, IMO) to construct an economic perpetual motion machine by legal schemes and other rent-seeking behavior.

    1. Re:Some people just don't get it ... by DigitalisAkujin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly, which is why the future of companies that make money from computers would be mostly relegated to support and installation. In other words the marginal cost of man power.

    2. Re:Some people just don't get it ... by colinrichardday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But in the case of software, much of the fixed cost of software development is previous software, so the Free Software movement reduces even the fixed costs of software development.

  11. Unable to grasp the issues by downix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft in their arguement has managed to demonstrate a clear lack of understanding of the core issue.

    Software is not a charity, nobody is discussing it as such.

    Software is, however, a written tool, in the end. Control of that tool is the key to empowerment. South Africa, actually all of Africa was held under oppression for many centuries by corporate interests such as microsoft, who held the keys for livelihood out of the masses hands in order to force the yoke.

    Microsoft cannot understand why people with such a memory would not jump at the option of putting a new yoke on their necks, to work themselves to death in order to enrich a new foreign master.

    --
    Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
  12. No such thing as free software? by CowboyNealOption · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Then how come msn shows over 81 million hits for the term "free software"? Or maybe he meant there is no free software that puts huge piles of money in Microsoft's pockets?

    p.s. It made me giggle a little to search for ubuntu, free software, and sourceforge on msn.com using firefox on a linux box.

  13. Nobody develops software for charity by trb · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Set aside for a moment Stallman's "socialist" arguments. Set aside "software wants to be free." Set aside your disdain of certain companies and their software.

    Even since the days before Stallman, the reason people shared software (that is, they gave it away for free), is because it is practically cost-free to reproduce. A community of hackers use the same OS and tools. In my life, it's been DEC TOPS-10, then UNIX, then Linux, but no matter. We all run into the same bugs. Better for one of us to fix and share, than for each of us to find and fix the same bug. Better for each of us to write a tool and share with all, than for each of us to have to write the same tool, most of us doing it poorly. It seems so obvious.

    Why did Bill Gates become fabulously wealthy? Because he produces a great product? I think not. Because he produces (and markets) an ok product that he can reproduce for pennies and sell for hundreds of dollars each. And he has managed to lock people into using his products.

    The point is that economically speaking, there is a strong argument for sharing (and thereby dividing up) the cost of production of tools if you can reproduce the tools for no cost and with no restrictions. Microsoft may not like this, but a developing nation should understand the point.

    1. Re:Nobody develops software for charity by foxylad · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bill Gates became fabulously wealthy because he persuaded the world that you should pay several hundred dollars for every copy of a piece of software. The world is waking up to the fact that software production is not your typical business, and FOSS is providing a concrete example of a more equitable economic model.

      In the Microsoft model, customers get off-the-shelf solutions (tough if their business doesn't work the way MS software does), MS get most of the proceeds, and local support people pick up the crumbs.

      In the FOSS model, customers can afford to pay for more custom development, local development and support people get most of the proceeds, and the original developer picks up the crumbs.

      As a local development and support person, guess which model I prefer?

      --
      Do as you would be done to.
  14. Yes but... by ElGanzoLoco · · Score: 4, Funny

    "South African Minister Locks Horns with Microsoft

    Yes but, were they long horns?

    --
    Hello! I'm a disaster waiting to happen!
  15. charity case by debatem1 · · Score: 3, Funny

    God must love idiots, because He made so many of them...

  16. Helping Microsoft with Analogies by lancejjj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    there is no such thing as free software. Nobody develops software for charity. That's like saying that software developers are simply unable to experience altruism because free software development makes them "feel good" - And "feel good" is a form of profit.

    If that's Microsoft's position, than clearly this organization is just another profiteer.

  17. Microsoft Open License Charity program by jbeaupre · · Score: 5, Informative
    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  18. Re:Technically true though by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    you seriously have your wires crossed thinking you can't get paid for coding without software patents. MS knows this. I don't need to patent something to make money off it, it just need to write a good product that people want, if a crappy clone comes along and tries to steal my idea... well that just encourages me to come up with new idea's and to offer a better product or service.

    the 2 things MS is terrified of having to compet on.

    --
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  19. False dichotomy by ketilf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is a false dichotomy. Software patents are obviously not the only alternative to developing for charity.

  20. Uh... by msauve · · Score: 2

    it's "free, as in speech," not "free, as in beer."

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Uh... by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      MS Says:

      Nobody develops software for charity

      Nonsense. Neither the commercial urge nor the recognition grabbing need have spread to cover 100% of those people producing software. Here is a database system in python that I wrote for my own reasons, and give away for free. No "GPL" or other pseudo-free restrictions, just free. PD. Take it. Do anything you like with it. Or not. Don't care. Not looking for money, not looking for recognition, not looking to promote free stuff over commercial stuff or vice versa, no requirements of any kind. Repost it anywhere, take my name off it, whatever you like. It's just... free. What do I get out of it? It works for me, that's all. Doesn't hurt me or compromise me in any way to give it away, so I do.

      What Microsoft - and the GPL-fans, for that matter - have oh-so-conveniently forgotten is the mechanism of PD software. Write it, share it, go on with your life. The more people do that, the more useful things will get created. Personally, I find the GPL just as corrosive as software patents, and for very similar reasons. I try to stay away from both. But that's just me.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    2. Re:Uh... by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think consistent, reliable, updated software is rare. Your database you speak of sounds like a one-off thing. What if someone finds a security hole? Or wants an additional feature? You'll either ignore the request, tell them to fix it, or be annoyed but fix it yourself. For free. What if there are 100 features/bugs that need to be worked on? What you describe is exactly not software vor charity. You want a service. It may be delivered via software, but it is not software itself.
      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re:Uh... by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Free vs. commercial software is a misdirection in this discussion anyways. The law forcing people to pay you for use of your software is copyright, not patents. The case for patents on software is harder to make, which is (no doubt) why Microsoft is confusing the issue by dragging free software into it when it doesn't belong.

    4. Re:Uh... by beav007 · · Score: 4, Funny

      with 2.5 cows on Tucows.
      2.5/2 sounds like a pretty good rating to me...
  21. Re:Technically true though by roggg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... if you don't allow patents, and therefore don't allow programmers to get money in exchange for coding... Huh? I'm calling shenanigans on you. Patents are not a mechanism by which programmers get paid for coding. They are a mechanism by which legal departments of companies harass their competitors, and by which companies that produce nothing engage in extortion. Programmers get paid to build software.
  22. FYI, copyrights and patents are corporate welfare by argoff · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He minus well have said - we need slavery, nobody will grow cotton on the plantations for free. The point being that copyright and patent are nothing like a normal property right and are the anti-christ of freedom and free markets. Every 'value' that they have is coerced at the expense of someone else, is asserting control over things they have no right to control, is an artificial monopoly.

  23. Developing for charity by aneviltrend · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nobody develops software for charity.

    Especially not Bram Moolenaar.

  24. Re:Technically true though by Znork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and if you don't allow patents, and therefore don't allow programmers to get money in exchange for coding

    That's called a non sequitur.

    Most people who receive money in exchange for their work do so without having monopoly rights. There is no evidence that monopoly rights are necessary for monetizing software development; in fact, there's a vast array of evidence suggesting it's not at all necessary.

    That evidence ranges from open source companies on one end to the vast majority of programmers hired for coding specific purpose software which is never released and for which copyright or patents is irrelevant.

    On the other side is, eh, Microsoft. Claiming that they need software to cost money or they have no business model.

    No shit. Wonder what makes them say that then.

  25. Re:Technically true though by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Informative

    It does also sometimes serve its original intent, to protect the little guy from having his ideas stolen with zero recourse.

    I agree today its not often, but id not say patents are ONLY to support the big legal departments for harassment purposes.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  26. Re:Technically true though by annodomini · · Score: 3, Informative

    While you're certainly correct that most free software isn't written for charitable reasons, there certainly is plenty of free software that is. Look at the OLPC; that's not for profit, or for ego, it's a charity, unless you want to clame that every single charity out there, from ones that fight hunger to AIDS to teaching in developing nations, is just around to "have their ego stroked." Or, to give you a particularly striking example, here is an excerpt from the SQLite source code:

    May you do good and not evil
    May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
    May you share freely, never taking more than you give.

    Crazy Taco:

    The thing the Africans need to realize is that most programmers prefer to get money in exchange for their coding, and if you don't allow patents, and therefore don't allow programmers to get money in exchange for coding, you have cut off about 98% of your source of new code.

    That's absolutely false. 99% of programmers don't make their money from software patents; in fact, most of them would have an easier time doing their jobs and making money if software patents didn't exist. Software copyrights certainly help protect their software and allow them to make money, but the vast majority of software patents are held by patent trolls who haven't written a line of useful software in their lives, or big companies that just patent everything they think they can to use defensively against other companies in case of patent lawsuits.

    The problem with software patents is that pretty much every piece of software written is a novel invention, because if it wasn't, then you should have reused code that already existed since it already does what you need. If people patented every new idea they had while coding, they'd be in an out of the patent office 10 times a day, and wouldn't be able to get their work done (credit to Phil Greenspun for that argument). The only people who get patents are, as I mentioned, greedy patent trolls who just want to make an easy buck (it's pretty damn simple to come up with a new, patented idea in code, and then just sue anyone else who happens to think of that and implement it later), and companies that usually get big patent portfolios so when other big companies try to hit them up for money, they can just do a patent cross-licensing agreement and not have to actually fight it out in court.

    As a professional, paid programmer, I must say that patent issues are second only to cryptographic regulation issues in terms of laws that have interfered with me actually getting my job done.

  27. I agree, but... by Weaselmancer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It does also sometimes serve its original intent, to protect the little guy from having his ideas stolen with zero recourse.

    I agree, that is the original intent of patents.

    But has anyone heard of a little guy using a patent to stave off a large corporation from stealing his ideas in the last decade or so? It only works if the little guy has lawyers good enough to go to bat against the megacorporations likely to steal his patent. Which, of course, means he's not a little guy.

    The patent game is a game played by companies with teams of lawyers on the payroll. IMHO, the little guy was bounced out of this arena sometime around 1950 or so. I know I haven't seen it be otherwise in my lifetime.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:I agree, but... by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, the fundamental problem with all forms of "intellectual property" is that they attempt to perform a form of social engineering (encouraging innovation) through the violation of free market principles (using government enforcement to reduce competition in the marketplace).

      Encouraging innovation by restricting the spread & use of information seems highly counterintuitive to me.

    2. Re:I agree, but... by superwiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, the fundamental problem with all forms of "intellectual property" is that they attempt to perform a form of social engineering (encouraging innovation) through the violation of free market principles.

      It's not a free market if you can't negotiate the price at which you wish to sell your own creations.

      It's no more social engineering than keeping people from coming to your house and sleeping in your living room because you are not using it. Social engineering is any attempt to pro-actively change behavior. Preventing behavior which is undesirable is not social engineering -- it is protection. Ie, encouraging you to work by beating you on the day you don't work is social engineering while encouraging you to work by not paying you on the days you don't work is not social engineering.

      Encouraging people to innovate by making sure they retain the right to sell what they create at the price they manage to get on a market place of ideas is not social engineering. While it is regrettable that the patent system degenerated into what it has, it is mostly due to (i)the complete break down of the courts and (ii) business patents. I still insist that if mathematicians were allowed to patent what they created, math would be much more readable and far more advanced today (and I am a mathematician -- just look at the structure of most of my arguments: "if...,then..." :) ).

      (using government enforcement to reduce competition in the marketplace) That's why the "limited time" part of the patent system is so important. Monopolies are not harmful when they are guaranteed to expire. They do allow inventors time to both evangelize their idea (some ideas need a lot of explaining) and get some financial benefit out of them. I am sure we both can come up with examples of how this is not what the actual patent system does today. That's an argument that the legal system is broken -- not that the patent system as such has no useful purpose.

      Encouraging innovation by restricting the spread & use of information seems highly counterintuitive to me. Patents don't do that. You have to publish all the details to get a patent. You are thinking of trade secrets. Those emerge precisely when the patent system breaks down.
      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    3. Re:I agree, but... by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not a free market if you can't negotiate the price at which you wish to sell your own creations.

      If you can't sell your own creation for a particular price, then it isn't worth that amount, no matter how much you think it is. Getting special laws passed to have your own business model enforced by the government doesn't count as free market, no matter how much you pretend it does. Although you were very polite about it and your post was well-written, the contents of your response was incorrect in almost every way.

      Encouraging people to innovate by making sure they retain the right to sell what they create at the price they manage to get on a market place of ideas is not social engineering.

      There is no such thing as a "marketplace of ideas". This is a fantasy which can only be created by using government enforcement to create an artificial scarcity of "ideas".

      I'll hazard a guess that because your choice of vocation revolves around concepts & ideas, your desire to control those concepts & ideas is distorting your viewpoint of what constitutes a free market.

      I'm a programmer, so I work with concepts & ideas too, but I make the assumption that people are paying me for my service. If I want to keep getting paid, then I have to keep providing service. I don't expect to create a piece of software once, then be paid every time that software is used even when I don't do any more work. That would be greedy, but that's exactly what intellectual property proponents want to be able to force people to do.

      Encouraging people to innovate by making sure they retain the right to sell what they create at the price they manage to get on a market place of ideas is not social engineering.

      Setting up artificial control of the flow of ideas through government enforcement for the purpose of "encouraging" innovation IS, by definition, using government enforcement to manipulate free market dynamics for the purpose of a social goal. How can you not call that social engineering?

      Monopolies are not harmful when they are guaranteed to expire.

      This is also incorrect. Monopolies are not harmful only when they don't use their monopoly status to prevent competition. If the time period of their existence is short enough, then perhaps they cause very little harm - but that harm still exists.

      Encouraging innovation by restricting the spread & use of information seems highly counterintuitive to me.
      Patents don't do that.

      That's why I added the "& use" in my statement, since patents definitely prevent you from USING ideas (at least not without paying someone something). Copyrights are definitely about restricting the spread of information.

      As far as patents are concerned, if I come up with an idea independently (which happens a lot), why should I be forced to pay someone because they happened to file something similar with the Patent Office a little earlier?

      As I stated at the beginning, in a free market, a product or service is only worth what people are willing to pay you for it. You don't get to decide the value of your product or service: the market does. And if you have to depend on government enforcement of a bad business model make your good or service artificially more valuable, then your business model has nothing to do with a free market.

    4. Re:I agree, but... by superwiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you can't sell your own creation for a particular price, then it isn't worth that amount, no matter how much you think it is. Getting special laws passed to have your own business model enforced by the government doesn't count as free market, no matter how much you pretend it does. Although you were very polite about it and your post was well-written, the contents of your response was incorrect in almost every way.

      First, tone down the rhetoric. I can reply by saying that "your response misses points (a),(b),(c), etc". Or I can simply state my argument. Ad hominems do nothing by validate the opposing view point.

      Having said that, I didn't say that I wanted to sell my creation for a particular price. I simply said that I would want to be able to say no when a particular price is offered. Without IP, I would have no such ability. I don't want laws that would enforce my business model. I want laws that enforce my right to refuse the use of my ideas (no matter how much others need or want them). That is, if I agree to make my ideas public. If I don't publish them, then I don't have any right to claim them as my own. That's precisely how patents are supposed to work.

      There is no such thing as a "marketplace of ideas".

      But there is. Many original ideas never become known because there it is more profitable to keep them secret. Any idea (any thing, actually) that can be made profitable can be sold. So the exchange of ideas for common unit of exchange (ie, money) does take place. That's the market of ideas.

      Setting up artificial control of the flow of ideas through government enforcement for the purpose of "encouraging" innovation IS, by definition, using government enforcement to manipulate free market dynamics for the purpose of a social goal.

      That's not what patents do. Again, you have to release all the details in order to patent something. So this system doesn't control the flow of ideas. If it worked as intended, then (in addition to the effect of creating a more equitable market... beer) it would have the side effect of increasing the flow of ideas by making ideas more free(as in speech)ly exchanged. As it stands right now, it discourages the flow of ideas by making it too expensive for engineers (software and otherwise) to read through granted patents (because too many trivial patents are granted and knowingly violating a patent increases damages in any potential law suit).

      As far as patents are concerned, if I come up with an idea independently (which happens a lot), why should I be forced to pay someone because they happened to file something similar with the Patent Office a little earlier?

      Because that's the only way to verify that the idea is, in fact, innovative. If someone thought of it before you did, what you did was, by definition, not innovative (it was not new at the time you "discovered" it). As a matter of fact, you can't really claim to have discovered it. A more proper way to say it would be that you re-discovered it or stumbled on an idea which someone already had.

      By the way, if what you stumble on is similar, then it is not the same. So it does not violate the patent. You can patent your idea and (in a world as hypothetical as the one in which everyone maximizes their marginal utility) the Patent Office would correctly decide if your idea is one of the 3: the same as the "similar" idea (but perhaps stated differently), different from that idea, incorporates that idea. If it incorporates the "similar" idea, then you would have the ability to negotiate your price for further innovation, too.

      As I stated at the beginning, in a free market, a product or service is only worth what people are willing to pay you for it.

      This is not true. If you come to my home and offer $25 for my car, I don't have to accept your offer. The free market price is the price a

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    5. Re:I agree, but... by superwiz · · Score: 2

      No one is restricting you to say no. And IP does not guarantee the right to say yes or no, is simply defines who's the owner.

      The only thing that ownership give you is the right to refuse utility to others. And, pray tell, how I can say, "no, you can't use my idea." If there is no legal means of stopping you, you can just ignore me. So the only option I have is to hide my ideas. This is precisely how people behave when a government does not provide protection for property. You might (or might not) be interested to know that in the modern-day Russia, there is a concept of (roughly translated) not-flasing. It exists because the post-Soviet Russian government does not provide protection of tangible property, so those who have anything that can be taken by force can only protect it by hiding the fact that they have it. The concept did not emerge as a hypothetical. It emerged in response to many people getting killed as soon as they had something which could be taken from them.

      BTW your post is really inconsistent. You apparently are a person that makes a living from IP. But your statement about monopolies is just our of context.

      I was simply addressing your assertions about monopolies (not specifically the ones created by IP laws, but all of them).

      Let me explain something that I think is missing from the consideration here. You are not just a victim of patents. You are also their beneficiary. More than that, you are currently a victim of the regime in which patents do not really exist (or exist in a very broken way). That's not the explanation that's an assertion. Here's the explanation:

      As a programmer, you rely on other domains' specialists to share information with you that would allow you to write code that is useful to non-programmers. The more useful code you can write, the more money you can make. If a system exists under which domain experts can describe their ideas concretely and publish those explanations and then hope to be able to negotiate a price with anyone who uses the ideas that they published, then they would be encouraged to make their publications very well-presented, very approachable, well-illustrated, etc. Why? Because they would want them to be widely-understood. The more programmers understood their ideas, the more likely it would be that some programmers would to use them to write code.

      As the system stands now, here's what happens. Domain experts and programmers coalese into secret societies in which they cooperate to write code that roughly addresses problems identified by the domain experts in those secret societies. This gives advantage to bigger economic players because they can make those secret societies contain more players (thus making it more likely that a good explanation of a particular domain problem will emerge and be used by programmers). The smaller economic players generally fail in this situation because they can only gain access to very few domain experts, so they have a lesser chance of comming across a good explanation of any one domain problem.

      Domain experts (mathematicians, chemists, engineers) try to make a living by publishing books on that which would teach others about their domain of knowledge. But to make use of such books anyone who wants to write code useful for a particular domain must first become a semi-expert in the domain. Short of teaching (ie, creating more semi-experts) and publishing books, the domain experts live off tips. Those are hand-outs from the government (which gets its resources from your taxes) and other large economic players that hope that the experts will share their discoveries in exchange for the tips they receive. Of course, once these discoveries do occur, most of the time they are published in a way that is not useful to you as a programmer. They are only useful to other domain experts. So they all agree with each other that the discovery is new and good. But you rarely get any benefit from it. The domain expert is not inter

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  28. Is this mostly about employment? by Ricin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Against my nature I RTFA, and I noticed that from MS' side what this seems to be about (if you read between the lines) is the courting of local developers. The comparison with India speaks volumes.

    I'm willing to speculate that if you look at market entrance for the (lower) continent SA is likely the gateway. Is Shuttleworth a large employer there? Is it a veiled threat WRT employment possibilities?

    It's a tried and tested method used by corporations to get their way, use (potential and actual) employment as bargaining chips to get the government pork.

  29. My, how times haven't changed. by jimicus · · Score: 4, Informative

    "Nobody develops software for charity.'"

    I hear echoes of a letter written by a certain William Gates over 30 years ago:

        http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html

    "What hobbyist can put 3-man years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free? "

  30. Re:Technically true though by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's another camp---indeed, the largest camp of all---the people who code because it solves a problem they have. In the absence of it being a competitive advantage for a corporation, there's no good reason not to share that with others so that it will help solve their problems, too. Lord knows I've done that quite often. Sure, I like name recognition, but I'd still do it even if nobody ever heard of me.

    Similarly, when I run into a problem that prevents me from getting stuff done, I fix it and submit patches. They don't always get accepted, but at the very least, they are out there for other people who run into the same problems to use if they need them, and they make the original developer aware that people want a particular enhancement.

    That said, there's still a payback. I'm getting useful functionality out of the code---functionality that I would not get without writing it. So pedantically speaking, the Microsoft rep is technically right. That said, since I had to write it anyway, from the perspective of the system as a whole, the existence of the software as a public resource is as close to "free" as you can get; if you don't consider that "free", then there's no such thing as "free" at all, and I would argue that this is a silly way to look at the world. If something occurs for no additional cost (or negligible cost) as a result of a process that you have to do anyway, that something is, by definition, free. Now the act of giving it away isn't free, mind you; there's a possible opportunity cost because perhaps you could have sold it and made money. However, this is lost potential revenue, and the effort that you would have to spend trying to obtain that income usually won't pay for itself anyway. As such, releasing it as open source often truly is free....

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  31. Free Software by sgt+scrub · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft have used software libraries that were released by the BSD community in their products for years. They "incorporated" tools written by hobbiests into DOS, back in the day, without any note to the contributors. It only proves they move blindly towards the money, never look behind, and never clean the people they step on off the bottom of their shoes.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  32. Re:Technically true though by Weedlekin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "98% of the source of new code does not come from software patents and I can prove it:

    Mac OS X"

    And MS-DOS, and Windows, and Word, and Excel, and... MS wouldn't exist in its current form if Digital Research had software patents on CP/M, or Apple had them on the original Mac and QuickTime, or Dan Bricklyn had patented the concepts in VisiCalc, or MicroPro had patented various WP concepts, or Borland had patented the IDE, or software patents had been present on any of the legion of other programs and associated software technologies that Microsoft have blatantly ripped off over the years.

    To paraphrase Alastair Crowley: "Do as I say and not as I do shall be the whole of the law".

    --
    I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
  33. Re:Technically true though by hardburn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, there are many developers who write code for no money, but at the same time, I don't know anyone who does it entirely for selfless, charitable reasons.

    Vim is explicitly produced as a way to promote a charity for Uganda.

    --
    Not a typewriter
  34. Re:Technically true though by Directrix1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Additionally, programmers have copyrights, and software should not even be patentable. And if open source software devs having a ego-inflation from their work means they are not charitable, then the freaking ego-masturbation known as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation should not be considered charitable also.

    --
    Occam's razor is the blind faith in the natural selection of least resistance and in universal oversimplification. -- EF
  35. Re:Technically true though by rucs_hack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft, in spite if its using the word to death, is simply too large and complex to innovate. Real innovators are far too likely to feel stifled and leave the company.

    They aren't capable of admitting, or possibly even acknowledging this any more.

    They came to my uni in 2002, and the main speaker, their head of whatever they call their hiring department (he did introduce himself, but I was only there for the pizza) went on what I can only describe as a polite tirade against 'hackers', meaning the proper meaning, not the criminal one. They didn't want them, they wanted people who thought like microsoft did, and were able to do things the microsoft way. A way we were assured was nothing like open source, and far superior.

    Their problems quite obviously run deep, and to be frank it was obvious from that one meeting, I was not alone in coming away with that impression (note, not one person at that meeting went to work for them). They want to distance themselves from their hacker origins, but those very same people are what's driving the real innovation in the industry.

  36. Re:Technically true though by spun · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft, in spite if its using the word to death, is simply too large and complex to innovate. Ah, but you see, they've developed a program to help with that.

    "It looks like you are trying to innovate! Maybe I can help you
    A.) Wade through mountains of bureaucratic paperwork.
    B.) Convince your technically conservative superiors of the merits of your plans.
    C.) Steal someone else's idea and market it better.

    You've chosen to steal someone else's idea. Good choice!"

    Yes folks, it's Clippy's bigger brother, Hangy the wire coat hanger. He helps you abort innovation before it causes real problems AND put the new cover on your TPS reports!
    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  37. Charity is an odd word by jd · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It's usually seen as something people hand junk to, although the ideal is that it's where you hand stuff that may be useful to others. Chaitable work is not useless work, it's work that can be reused by others. Charity also has a connotation of sacrifice, that you lose something. Never quite understood that. If a charity collects books for a public library, are you then going to be denied membership? If a charity turns desolate, polluted wasteland into a park, are you going to be denied access?

    The answer, to me, is that F/L/OSS is charity, a charity that produces information the same way the above charity donating to a library produces information, and is a charity that turns a bunch of metals and chemicals into a finely-honed computing tool, the same as the above charity created a park. What we do is indeed charitable, not because we deprive ourselves, but because we enrich others. The cost to ourselves is zero, because we would have scratched our itches anyway. You can't rationally add as a cost of sharing the cost of pleasing ourselves.

    Charity obviously allows for return on investment, it just means that others also get a return on your investment. But it doesn't require that others give any kind of feedback at all. If you make a public park and only you visit, it's still public, it was still an act of charity, but it's an act of charity you get exclusive benefit from.

    Microsoft's statement, then, is a dark one indeed. No charity, of any kind? It says that they gain no pleasure in the results of their labour, that they suffer with every release, that every enhancement and refinement is a source of pain. Quality must be endless torment (which would explain some things). It is a bleak future when everything is misery and there is an apparent determination to spread that misery.

    If they wanted to spread even just contentment, through their freely-donated hot-fixes, patches and service packs, freely-donated Microsoft Research products and freely-donated e-mail service and instant messenger, they'd be guilty of charity. Since they have denounced the charitable and all their works, these things cannot be given for the use of others. But, if they are not usable, even in theory, what are they? Microsoft's comments deride and slander all who would offer service to others, so the only conclusion is that these things are intended to cause suffering and misery, which - to judge by Vista service pack 1 - is indeed what they cause.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  38. Re:Technically true though by kvezach · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Without patents, the result will be predictable: most people will keep their algorithms a closely guarded secret. The result will be that academia will suffer as algorithms go from publicly disclosed patents to trade secrets.

    And then a clever hacker will reverse engineer the algorithm and leak it to the world. Short of DMCA-type problems (which is an entirely different mess), there's nothing the companies can do since there are no more software patents, and if the prevalence of cracks show anything, it's that any program can be reverse-engineered.

  39. Re:Technically true though by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I disagree with you about the need for patents.

    Ultimately, the best idea is to eliminate software patents entirely. Our software industry grew hugely profitable without them, so there is no demonstrable need for software patents (unless, of course, you have some anticompetitive ideas in mind.) Fact is, they are not helping, and so far as the United States is concerned they're not fulfilling their Constitutional mandate (admittedly, not much of anything Congress passes lately does.) However, if you must have them, give the USPTO the funding it needs to be critical about what truly is worthy of protection (I agree with you there) and shorten the term.

    Without patents, the result will be predictable: most people will keep their algorithms a closely guarded secret.

    So what? If it's secret, I can't use it, and if it's patented I can't use it. If I make a derivative work based upon your disclosed, patented algorithm odds are you'll still sue me. Without software patents, companies which understand that the only real way to maintain a competitive edge is to keep investing in R&D will simply be encouraged to maintain that investment. Maybe then they'll starting hiring fewer IP lawyers and more scientists, engineers and programmers. I'd say the country would be a whole lot better off if that were to happen. Hell, if you want an argument against software patents (indeed, excessive IP law in general) just look at Asia's high-tech economies. They don't have draconian Intellectual Property laws and they're doing just fine, employing a hell of a lot of people manufacturing a lot of products.

    When it comes to software, the reality is this: if there's a way of doing something, there's probably a better way and sooner or later someone will figure it out. Furthermore, if something is protected by trade secret law, it's only secret until someone figures it out. And, if they figure it out independently (or do come up with a better approach) there's no patent system getting the way of that technology being commercialized. Software patents have proven to be a millstone around the U.S. software industry's neck and the Patent Office is utterly incapable of managing them effectively. Given those facts, we're better off without them.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  40. Compiz Fusion by JAlexoi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Compiz Fusion! HTB for packet scheduling.
    BTW most stuff in Linux is not UI visible.
    And anyway most of developers behind FOSS projects are not hobbyists, but professionals that spend extra time on FOSS projects (Google practice for spending some time on FOSS projects)

  41. Re:Technically true though by timmarhy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It's a funny thing you know, i know several people who did interships at MS and they all say the same thing - everyone there is brillant, everyone is very very smart.

    so how do they fail to be technological leaders ? don't get me wrong i think MS makes a lot of good products, sql server and .net are great products. And i think in many ways them being market leader has them in a damned if they do damned if they don't position - think if they REALLY altered windows vista how many compatability issues there would be?

    all that aside though there needs to be a fundamental corperate culture shift at MS. they have consistantly failed to engage their customers, there is no grass roots movement on the ms platform anymore. instead of relying on people wanting to use their platform, they try to trap them into it, which hardly endears anyone to them.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  42. Re:Technically true though by thanatos_x · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are of course right on all counts. No one does anything that on some level they don't want to do among the options present. Do I want to go to the gym? Maybe not, but it helps my well being in the long term.

    Some people do things for the pleasure or challenge, some do it for the indirect pleasure (money, prestige or good vibes from helping people), and when stuck between a rock and a hard place, you decide which decision you like most of the options present.

    As for patents? I think there's little doubt there needs to be some reform, and there's been a number of interesting suggestions raised in various /. threads. Yes, most people who code do so for money, and those that do open source likely derive primary income from a job where they do make money for their coding expertise.

    One of the more interesting solutions I've found (not my own idea) was a property tax on patents, to be assessed every 5-10 years (or when challenged enough). The patent goes up for bids at this time, and although the owner has the right to refuse any offer, the property is found to be of value equal to the amount bid for tax purposes. This encourages active use of patents, discourages patent trolls, and when there isn't interest in the patent, it expires into public domain.

    Obviously this lacks some details, perhaps benefits for the inventor of a patent, a higher tax rate if the owner is found to be simply sitting on the patent, but it seems to solve most of the current issues with patents. This would entail a fair bit of overhead, but with some common sense the burden of much of the work would be placed on corporations who want a given patent, and the property taxes from patents should be more than enough to pay for the workers to review the patents.

    --
    I am not an expert. If I am misled in something, please correct me.
  43. Re:Technically true though by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I do make my living from writing software and developing electronic solutions. you merely illustrate yourslef as having no talent or imagination with your post because:

    a) people will always have new problems to overcome which will require creative solutions. b) if someone makes a cheap knock off it will only be that - a cheap knock off, and no where near the quality of the product i make. it will also lag way behind my product as i develop it and lack compatability with future features (see point a)

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  44. Re:Technically true though by cheater512 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You *have* to break backwards compatibility every couple of years.
    Otherwise your software becomes bogged down and very inflexible.

    It occurs in open source software occasionally. Look at KDE 4.
    They are taking the opportunity to break compatibility in the name of progress.
    Any old dusty and hackish code can be thrown away and be replaced with shiny new code.

    This is Window's primary problem. Microsoft is scared shitless at breaking compatibility.
    However they will need to do so very soon to survive.
    Windows Vista is already filled to the brim with hacks and really odd behaviors due to backwards compatibility.

    Want to see a really good example of how it should be done? Look at Apple.
    They went from PPC to x86 and it was relatively smooth.

  45. Re:Technically true though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Naming a product doesn't refute anything. How does it prove the GP's argument wrong? How does it innovate? How is it better than the previous version/anything else? What does it allow you to do that you couldn't do before? Innovation is supposed to be a step forward, how does this qualify?

    If all you're going to do is say a few words and nothing else then so will I.

    Uh, Office 2007?

    Its slow, bloated, ugly, messy, difficult to use and buggy.

  46. Re:Technically true though by FLEB · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With the current specs for an affordable computer, though, now is really the time to do it. They've got Virtual PC... it shouldn't be difficult, relatively speaking, to create an emulated "compatibility mode" in the same sort of way that Apple did (earlier) with Classic under OS X.

    --
    Information wants to be free.
    Entertainment wants to be paid.
    You just want to be cheap.
  47. Re:Technically true though by webmaster404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Exactly, MS stands mostly to attempt to prove that free software can't exist, while doing that they managed to run away from where all the innovation is happening, where it has been happening for the last 20 or more years: the Homebrew/Hacker/Hobbyist scene. Apple saw this, took BSD, cleaned up the kernel a bit, took some free utilities and are now selling a very successful GUI as OS X. MS has to re-invent the wheel with every OS to make it look "new" and distance itself from the free community. This leads to failures such as Vista where it takes a *5*+ year development cycle to produce an OS that is more buggy then most alpha software in the free community. Note to Bill and Steve Ballmer, you can't run a company that ignores a large part of where all real innovation takes place, its ignorent and stupid to act that way.

    --
    There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
  48. Re:Technically true though by superwiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Code is code. It runs on a known hardware and has a fixed set of rules for execution. Binary or not, the logic is crackable.

    I suppose with proper tools and 15 years of experience, you can figure out how to decompile stripped code. Although, I can't quite think of how it would do it... maybe by having a tool that runs the code and decompiles it as it runs? Otherwise, you can't tell the different between data and instructions, so... well, I don't know. I'll take your word for it. Although games are not a good example. All you need from them is small snippets of data that allow you to change their crucial behavior (more resources, faster movement, etc.). It's not quite the same as figuring out an algorithm.

    Like you said,

    float InvSqrt (float x){
    float xhalf = 0.5f*x;
    int i = *(int*)&x;
    i = 0x5f3759df - (i>>1);
    x = *(float*)&i;
    x = x*(1.5f - xhalf*x*x);
    return x;
    }

    took a while to figure out even after the code was available. So truly innovative stuff (the kind that's worth patenting) is probably outside of the reach of most disassembly and analysis. I am thinking more like routing algorithms. And (**d forbid!) some navigational systems... anything in which the math is harder than the rest of the code. But even sidestepping that, there algorithms to do things which are faily complicated in themselves, so...

    Btw, the code is crucial because, as you pointed, out it lets calculate <x,y>/|y| with simple multiplication... thus avoiding both square root (fairly expensive) and division.

    Aaah... The good old days. When slashdot had posts like this http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=159570&cid=13367261 and not like this http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=497518&cid=22852348#

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  49. Ugh -- MSO 2007 == :-( by zooblethorpe · · Score: 3, Informative

    I can only assume you're trolling, and I *know* I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I have a personal beef against Office 2007 thanks to one "just ride the gravy train and do / know jack" schmuck of an IT guy...

    Its slow
    Faster than all its competition.

    Maybe, on high-end hardware. My wife's school has a bunch of old Dells, and Office 2003 was sluggish, but acceptable on them. The school's IT guy decided in the middle of the school year to install Office 2007 school-wide, without telling anyone. Nice. So the software is slower than a dying dog, and now the UI's so different that all the teachers who had only finally figured out where everything was under the old Office paradigm are crippled in their productivity by this weird "ribbon" garbage. Which, incidentally, is quite the hog in terms of screen real estate when you've only got 1024x768 or less to play with.

    bloated
    Nope.

    Based on what? If it's slower to load, and includes things you don't need, that would seem to be bloat...?

    ugly
    Matter of opinion, I guess. I think you're thinking of Office 2003, which was most certainly ugly.

    No more so than Office 2000, which, while no winner of any beauty awards, at least we were used to. And see my comment above about the unusability of the ribbon interface on smaller monitors.

    difficult to use
    Nope, Office 2007 has a new interface that's easier to use than any Office version before it. Thus the innovation.

    This New! Improved! And Innovative! interface resulted in numerous half-bald teachers at my wife's school. Due to tearing their hair out trying to get things done, I mean.

    and buggy
    Nope.

    I hesitate to even get into this one much, but the troubles with MSO 2007 file incompatibility with older installations, or the problems with "compatibility" mode using older file formats within MSO 2007, has been documented to some length elsewhere on the web.

    So there. Food for the troll, maybe, but at least I've gotten some things off my chest. :)

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  50. Re:Technically true though by Richard+W.M.+Jones · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Without patents, the result will be predictable: most people will keep their algorithms a closely guarded secret.

    You can't keep an algorithm secret since it's so simple to disassemble code.

    In the same way that patents don't help in pharmaceuticals these days either since mass spectroscopy makes it (relatively) simple to work out what a drug is composed of.

    The idea that patents protect us against those who would keep recipes secret belongs in the age of the alchemist.

    Rich.

  51. Re:Technically true though by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At this point their best bet is, as you say, a clean break. I'm not convinced it would have to be all that painful though.

    They COULD just mark the existing API as depricated and make the new API available in a transitional version (or 2). The depricated API could be handled by anything from a virtualized copy of XP to a thin shim layer. After all, Wine more or less manages it when shimming up with an entirely different OS and doesn't even have the advantage of being able to incorporate or even look at the emulated OS's code.

    We know at one time they managed to thunk the old stuff together with 32 bit code with no more pain that the XP to Vista transition is already causing. Given that, an API transition now wouldn't even be a first for them.

    That leaves us with either paralysis at the architecture level or that they're too busy making sure the OS does NOT do what the user wants to take time out to write a shim.