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ODF Editor Says ODF Loses If OOXML Does
An anonymous reader writes "The editor of the Open Document Format standard has written a letter (PDF) that strongly supports recognizing Microsoft's OOXML file format as a standard, arguing that if it fails, ODF will suffer. 'As the editor of OpenDocument, I want to promote OpenDocument, extol its features, urge the widest use of it as possible, none of which is accomplished by the anti-OpenXML position in ISO,' Patrick Durusau wrote. 'The bottom line is that OpenDocument, among others, will lose if OpenXML loses... Passage of OpenXML in ISO is going to benefit OpenDocument as much as anyone else.'"
Okay, I Am Not An Iso-standard Expert (IANAIE ?), but that must be the most counter-intuitive argumentation I've heard this month.
He invoques the need to have a formal definition of some features (formula definitions and legacy stuff) as benifiting ODF if OOXML pass, so this raises the questions:
1) Aren't these already included to some extend in what was submitted for iso acceptation?
2) Wasn't this specification part of what EU's justice were asking Microsoft anyways?
3) Is it that hard to reverse-ingeneer that kind of spec?
Asking in good faith, as I really hav no clue.
Don't take my posts literally; it's just code to control my botnet.
He seems to hinge everything on the assumption that Microsoft is going to follow whatever version on OOXML is adopted, allowing ODF to be able to port those features. I think that's a huge assumption on his part.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
... at least so I can find out what he's smokin' and get me some of that. I mean, whah??? If OOOXML is garbage, and not an open standard given the really big implementation holes, and not apparently implemented *anywhere* (nor, some might argue, implement*able*), why is it in anyone's interest to have it passed? Aside from Microsoft's, of course.
Confused,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Me thinks the bottom line he mentioned was under his own bank balance. Ive heard Microsoft has soft pillows in its bed.
"Persistance is Fertile" - Me. I can quote myself if I want to.
I do not support any "standard" that is bad enough that its own promoters have to buy votes to get it in.
But if OOXML passes, customers, small to medium businesses and even world's governments are going to suffer. It's impossible for a team of 10 developers to implement a 1000+ page specification in their product. And because of ambiguities in the same, citizens will not be able to understand laws or government budgets of their own land.
The only thing is, 500 pages of ODF spec may not be much better for small businesses. What we need is a specification with multiple levels of fallback for simplier generators and consumers. For example, one part of a document zip file can be plain text contained in the document, with reasonable efforts to convert document structure to a human and machine readable plain text representation. For producers, it will be valid to generate a document bundle with only the text file and nothing else.
Technical issues aside. We all lose if we bow to corruption too.
I despair at the behaviour and apparent quality of technical expertise of some of my peers.
Yeah, that's what we call "not documenting the format."
Oh, and yeah, great, they documented the format. But it is NOT something that should be accepted as a standard. BF is a documented programming language, but if you had to pick a standard language, would you pick BF, if there was, oh, any other alternative?
What is so difficult about the two words "open" and "standard"? A proprietary trade secret is antithetical to that. Relying on proprietary trade secrets in a proposed "open standard" makes it neither.
Which in no way mandates that these legacy attributes also be completely opaque to every implementation except one.
Oh, by the way, we have a way to store odd formatting, and maintain backwards translateability -- styles. Extend the style system to where it can support weird shit like adjusting the "justify" algorithm, and store a SpacingLikeWordPerfectForDos (or whatever) style, in the document, with some special flag to indicate how it translates back into legacy formats (like Word 95 binary .doc).
Except that, as you say, the cryptic legacy stuff is a trade secret. Which is why we really don't want it ratified as any kind of open standard, as it is, quite simply, not open.
I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Either you've got trade secrets based on your file format, or you have an open standard. Not both.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
It's an office format, not nuclear fusion reactor design. ODF is already the better format, and there's nothing that ODF can learn from OOXML. Whatever expertise might flow from other standards into ODF already does because ODF (unlike OOXML) builds on existing standards.
But there's another reason why ODF won't benefit: OOXML "standardization" is just a trophy to Microsoft, a check-list item for buyers who want a standardized, open document format. Microsoft is going to keep adding proprietary extensions as they see fit, without bothering going through standardization or documenting them.
(The guy also grossly misuses the term "co-evolution", but let's not dwell on that.)
It might even be true that OOXML as an ISO standard would be beneficial to ODF. However, there are the following problems:
* There are some serious technical issues with the current proposal that have to be resolved
* There are some very serious problems with the way the process has evolved
* There is no guarantee that Microsoft will follow their own standards -- since, if there are big changes to the standard, it would require them to change their current file format.
The first two problems indicate that, perhaps, the fast-track-to-ISO was not a good idea for this standard, and that some more time and work is required before the standard is approved, no matter how beneficial an eventual approval would be for anyone.
Not necessarily. If anything, PDF is a great choice for distributing final copies of documents - it has exactly the right number of features, ts specs are published, and there are plenty of good tools (both open-source and commercial) for creating and reading it.
Acrobat, on the other hand, is a bloated pile of garbage.
...er, no, it means the author understands document file formats. The letter isn't meant for you or I to edit, and has a fixed layout, so PDF (being an open standard itself) is sensible.
One thing about MS. They have an absolutely crappy product, and some of the worst tech support going (the fact that they have to pull this crap attest to their products strength; none), BUT, their legal is awesome, as is their marketing. If you look at the above, they are thinking in terms of not only controlling, but also marketing it. Notice the last line of "get the press". Awesome. I hate to say it, but I view this as one of OSS's weakness. We need to do a better job of advertising OSS. I thought that IBM was doing some nice ads around 2000, but they seem to have stopped them. Perhaps, it is time for OSS companies to think of setting up a joint marketing campaign that benefits all of them. Afterall, that would be no different than the code. It is joint development, with differential marketing. But a joint marketing campaign designed to push OSS, and then mentions the items could make a dent. Perhaps a set of ads designed to push OSS app server or just OSS OS' (show off Linux, BSD, and even darwin).
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
As Co-Chair of the ODF TC, let me say that Mr. Durusau's views in no way represent the position of OASIS or the ODF TC.
Of course, he is entitled to express his personal views. And so am I.
Let us begin.
Patrick makes 5 assertions in his letter, and these are easily rebutted:
1) National bodies lose an open and international forum for further work on DIS 29500.
*Is Patrick implying that Ecma is not open and international? That would be a good thing to to know in those places where Microsoft is currently pushing for adoption of OOXML, arguing that it is an open standard.
One does not approve a standard in ISO in order to be more open. Openness should be there from the beginning. Patrick's argument appears to be
"Let's give OOXML the highest level of approval and then it will be a better standard". But ISO standardization is not done with sacramental
oils. There is not transmutation. OOXML does not become a good standard because it is approved. A standard is approved because it is good.
2) Microsoft based third-party vendors may be excluded from contracts because Microsoft has no ISO approved format.
*Microsoft could always add support for ODF to their product. Then they would be supporting an ISO standard. Similarly, I assume they are now seriously thinking of adding Blu-ray support to the XBox now that HD DVD failed. We should not be propping up Microsoft and giving them a free ticket to ISO because of their bad business decision in ignoring ODF and delaying their own standardization activities. The market rewards those who guess right, and punishes those that guess wrong. Microsoft was on the wrong side of open standards. We should not be looking to avoid the natural outcome of that.
3) ODF has no ISO-based formula definitions to insure compatibility between OpenDocument and OpenXML.
*And OOXML has no ISO-based formula definitions either, because OOXML has not been approved by ISO!
4) ODF has no ISO-based definition of MS legacy features for an ODF extension.
*And OOXML has no ISO-based definition of MS legacy features either, because OOXML has not been approved by ISO!
5) ODF has no ISO-based definition of the current MS format for mapping purposes
*And OOXML has no ISO-based definition of the current MS format either, because OOXML has not been approved by ISO!
These last three points by Patrick are rather poor. The fact that portions of the Ecma-376 specification are interesting as technical disclosures of proprietary Microsoft Office interfaces does not automatically recommend the entire 6,045 page specification for approval as an ISO standard. If the ODF TC desires any information on these three topics, we already have access to all of this material via the Ecma-376 text and the Ecma's Disposition of Comments report, both of which will exist regardless of whether DIS 29500 is approved. There is absolutely nothing we cannot do now, given the materials we have now.
Whether things like the spreadsheet definitions in OOXML are "ISO-approved" or not is immaterial. We know the ISO review was shallow. We cannot assume that Excel compatibility information in OOXML is correct. We need to test and verify everything. Slapping an "ISO" label on OOXML doesn't make it more useful or more accurate for ODF.
In no way whatsoever is ODF hurt, harmed or even annoyed by the imminent demise of Microsoft's ill-conceived and reckless experiment in ISO.
Acrobat reader 5 was somewhere around a 5.5 meg download. Acrobat reader 8 is 21 megs. It does the exact same things but is almost 4 times the size, how is that not bloated? I think the "super fast" load times you're seeing is from that new PC you bought, and not reader 8 being any faster or less bloated than reader 5, 6, or 7.
God is real unless declared integer.
Ok... i tried to find out who this guy is. Open Document Format editor? I see no reference to him anywhere on the ODf pages. http://www.oasis-open.org/home/index.php. I see nothing on his website that has anything to do with ODF. All I see is MS fanboyism. This sounds a lot like that other "news" story that was going around where a "open Document format" closes up shop and says the ODF format is no good... and it had nothing to do with ODF just more FUD. Can anyone see how/why he is the Open Document Format editor?
You're just thinking "Wordprocessor".
....
But that isn't all that's needed.
How do you store tracking information? How do you store equations? How do you store an index? How do you make links that will change? Line drawings?
When you've done all that to XHTML, you've now included MathML, SVG, PNG,
And then you'll have to submit this collected standard to a standards body, get it checked and tweaked for any errors or omissions you've made.
And you know what? That's what ODF has done.
ODF *is* what you'd get if you did what you asked for.
George W Bush, the leader of the White House has written a letter that strongly supports terrorism, arguing that if it fails, the coalition of the willing will fall apart. "As the leader of the free world I wish to promote peace, safety and freedom, none of which is accomplished by fighting terrorism", he wrote. "The bottom line is that if we capture Osama Bin-Laden national security loses... The constant threat of terror benefits our goals as much as anyone else."
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.