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Cities Tampering With Traffic Lights To Generate Revenue

Techdirt is reporting that there has been a rash of reports indicating that red light cameras are being used to generate revenue rather than to promote safety. "Time and time again studies have shown that if cities really wanted to make traffic crossings safer there's a very simple way to do so: increase the length of the yellow light and make sure there's a pause before the cross traffic light turns green (this is done in some places, but not in many others). Tragically, it looks like some cities are doing the opposite! Jeff Nolan points out that six US cities have been caught decreasing the length of the yellow light below the legal limits in an effort to catch more drivers running red lights and [increase] revenue."

19 of 736 comments (clear)

  1. Grounds to contest? by EllisDees · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Would these sneaky moves be grounds to contest the validity of all of the tickets given by traffic cameras in these cities?

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    1. Re:Grounds to contest? by Skynet · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Moreso than that, I think it would be grounds for a class action lawsuit.

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    2. Re:Grounds to contest? by ivan256 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or an insurance industry lawsuit complaining about the increase in rear-end collisions due to unexpectedly short yellow lights resulting in drivers slamming on the brakes.

    3. Re:Grounds to contest? by Hatta · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You had the choice not to run the light.

      Really? Suppose I'm used to yellow lights lasting 6 seconds, and I know I can get through the light in 5 seconds. Now the city changes the yellow light length to 3 seconds, without warning. Do I have a choice then?

      I really really hate people who run red lights. But I hate entrapment more.

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    4. Re:Grounds to contest? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yep. That's one of things under consideration here in Florida. They want to install traffic cameras at more intersections, but a state law prohibits their use to pass out tickets because, currently, a cop must see you running the red.

      The insurance industry and several other groups are opposed to eliminating the state law because they think there will be more rear-end collisions resulting from traffic cameras, precisely because studies done in other cities with traffic cameras actually bear this out. People don't want a ticket, so they slam on their brakes to stop, short yellow or no. OTOH, the studies show that there would be fewer T-bone collisions, which are the most common types of accidents involving intersections and amongst the most lethal.

      So, they could always just use the fewer "T-bone" accidents as an excuse, and I think this is, in fact, what many cities have done in order to get the traffic cameras.

      Welcome to 1984, citizen. Big Brother is watching you.

    5. Re:Grounds to contest? by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, you have a choice. You're supposed to stop on yellow, if you can manage it reasonably. Being used to gunning your engine through a yellow light isn't a valid defense. If you believe otherwise, we might as well ditch the yellow light altogether.

    6. Re:Grounds to contest? by piojo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You had the choice not to run the light.

      Really? Suppose I'm used to yellow lights lasting 6 seconds, and I know I can get through the light in 5 seconds. Now the city changes the yellow light length to 3 seconds, without warning. Do I have a choice then? It's worse than that. If a yellow light is short enough, you will neither have enough time to break, nor to make it through the intersection. If the light is shortened sufficiently, anybody without powerful breaks or who is going a few MPH over the speed limit will have to run the red light.
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    7. Re:Grounds to contest? by Arterion · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I slam on my brakes now every time the light turns yellow. I got an automated ticket for sliding under the yellow in the rain.

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      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    8. Re:Grounds to contest? by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Heck, I still think "yellow" is mainly so people who've been waiting can finally make their left turns.... Around here, you usually can't make your left on yellow, because there are cars in the way. The answer is to pull out into the middle of the intersection and wait there. When the light turns red, staying put would be even worse than going, so you go. The fact that four more people behind you also go is their problem.
    9. Re:Grounds to contest? by encoderer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But you only have to be IN THE INTERSECTION when the light turns Red to avoid getting a ticket.

      If this is the intersection:

          _| |__
          _____
            | |

      And you're traveling like this:

          _| |__
      >>_____
            | |

      Then as long as you cross THIS point before Red, the camera isn't tripped:

          _| |__
      >>_|____
            | |

      So the real issue with having short yellow lights is not that a person doesn't have enough time to stop or enough time to clear the intersection.

      The problem is that people think they'll have enough time to get past that magic line before the light turns red (that the yellow will hold that long) so they hit their gas and the yellow is so short that it turns red before the car passes that point and thusly the camera is tripped.

      At least, that's how I read it.

    10. Re:Grounds to contest? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem is that the cameras don't take that in to account. They fire when the light goes red. So while you might be ok by the law, you still get a ticket which you then have to fight, and might not be successful in contesting.

      That's one of the big problems with cameras. They have to be programmed on some hard basis like "picture gets taken when light goes red." Also, since the camera companies get a cut of the profits, there is incentive to get as many as possible.

    11. Re:Grounds to contest? by spitzak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually this is wrong. Comparing the length of the yellow to the time it takes to stop is misleading and an error.

      First, you have more than 1 second to stop. Lets say you are exactly 1 second away from the intersection at the moment the light turns yellow and you decelerate and stop at the intersection (thus not violating the law). Since you would have covered that distance in 1 second at your original velocity, and since by decelerating you are slowing down, it must take you more than 1 second to reach the intersection and stop (the light will turn red while you are still moving).

      The *real* problem is that there *is* some point at which you are too close to the intersection to stop safely in that remaining distance. This could be when you are *less* than the 1 second length of the yellow away. At that point what you are supposed to do is continue at your current velocity through the intersection. Since you are not decelerating, the time it takes you to stop is irrelevant. However the yellow could be so short that at your current speed you will not exit the intersection before the yellow ends. This means you will violate the law, yet your other decision would be to make an "unsafe stop" and thus no matter what you will do you will violate the law. This is what the complaints are about.

      You can see that the length of the yellow has nothing to do with how long it takes you to stop. Imagine the crossing road is very wide and/or you are travelling very slow, so that it takes 10 seconds to drive across it. If the yellow is 9 seconds long and turns on just as you enter the intersection, you cannot obey the law, even if you can stop is 1 second. So again comparing the length of the yellow to stopping time is irrelevant.

      Also in reality, there is a far larger "how long it takes to decide whether to stop or continue" time. This time must be added to the length of the yellow and is probably much larger than the time it takes to cross the road or any other time.

    12. Re:Grounds to contest? by iamhassi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Sure, they tell you to pay the fine, and nothing goes on your record...HOWEVER, the statistic of a moving violation goes on the record. If you take into account the shortening of yellow light times just to raise the number of 'red light' violations for revenue...you are generating more and more statistics that your city/state has a severe problem with moving violations."

      I don't think that's correct. We have redlight cameras in some Missouri cities and they're also operated by private companies and the cities get tiny portion of the fines. However if you don't pay the fines nothing happens. I received a red light ticket over a year ago and nothing has shown up on my record, but if I don't pay a normal speeding ticket or other traffic ticket there's warrants out for arrest the day after I miss the court date or date the ticket's due.

      I'm beginning to think the redlight cameras are wholly operated by the private companies and they don't have any court appointed right to issue warrants or do anything anymore than any other business owner. Only thing I've received were some nasty letters saying to pay the fine, it doesn't even show up on credit.

      Oh and the 6 cities they mentioned aren't the only cities doing this. I know of several lights locally that are timed faster than normal. I feel like the cities are playing chicken with real people's lives, testing to see if we'll kill each other by shaving a second off the yellow light. That'd be funny on a video game, not so funny in real life.

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  2. Not news by longacre · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Quite simply, if they were there for safety, cities would put warning signs up at intersections that have cameras, people would slow down, less people would run lights, and less accidents would occur. I have never seen a warning sign at such an intersection, so their financial motives are pretty clear.

  3. As the quote goes... by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the 1990s it triumphed over democracy."

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    "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
  4. Dallas bucks the trend by RobertB-DC · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Dallas recently installed red-light cameras. I'll testify that red-light runners were a major problem here, but I didn't support the cameras because of the potential for abuse. There was concern at City Hall, too, especially from the city's most with-it councilperson, Angela Hunt.

    To the surprise of just about everyone, the cameras worked! People actually started slowing down in time to stop if the light turned yellow. The city became safer.

    But there was an inevitable downside... the cameras' revenue no longer supported their operating cost.

    Once again, the unexpected happened. Dallas did NOT tweak yellow light timing to generate more tickets. Instead, they turned off some of the cameras. Apparently, the contract with the third-party camera operator has a clause that reduces the monthly charge from $3,800 per camera to "a fraction" of that cost (blame the Morning News for failing to tell whether that fraction is 1/10 or 9/10). So they're turning some of them off, noting that "most motorists won't realize this and behave as if the cameras are operational."

    Which is what we wanted all along.

    The city of Dallas is mired in several messes of its own making, resulting in high-profile FBI probes and even a suicide pact between two of its best-known (and most-troubled) behind-the-scenes power brokers. But in this case, the city comes shining through. And the Rangers won a double-header last night, too. Wonders never cease.

    More info available from the Dallas Morning News article.

    More info NOT available from "theNewspaper.com", a self-described "journal of the politics of driving" that never hesitates to pass on a story of red light camera *abuse*. I sent a link to the DMN story, but it never showed up. Agenda much?

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  5. Re:Depends on where you live.... by plague3106 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Your idea is interesting, but do you actually have studies to back it up? At http://www.motorists.org/, they have links to studies that lenghthing yellow light time is sufficent to lower accident rates.

  6. Legal yellow times by Thelasko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    According to this site the legal yellow light times in the state of California are:
    Posted Speed or Prima Facie Speed Minimum Yellow Interval
    MPH KPH Yellow SECONDS
    25 40 3.0
    30 48 3.2
    35 56 3.6
    40 64 3.9
    45 72 4.3
    50 80 4.7
    55 89 5.0
    60 97 5.4
    65 105 5.8
    Sorry, the lameness filter prevents this from being easily read.

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  7. Re:Depends on where you live.... by Technician · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was in Okinawa many years ago, I got a local drivers license. Learning their traffic customs was a real eye opener. The first thing I learned is that driving is not a right, but a privilege. The second thing I learned is there are no amateurs. Everyone is a professional driver and professional courtesy is required. As professionals and trained in moving traffic, they treated light a lot diffrently. The hardest thing to get used to was the courtesy at Right Turns (left turns for the US). If you waited for a light, the green meant go to everyone already in line. The greens were very short. On green the turn lane started and the light turned yellow and red right away and the other direction turned green. The turn lane continued to run the red while the green cross traffic professionally waited for the intersection to clear. It is illegal in Japan to proceed into an intersection unless it is safe to do so. This means wait for the turn lane to clear before entering the intersection. If you enter on a green light and hit someone making the turn, it's your fault for entering while unsafe to do so. The was normal, worked and prevented the overflow of traffic trying to get into a turn land from grid locking the straight traffic. There were few turning T-bone accidents. If you weren't in the turn line when it was green, you were expected to stop because the cross traffic was going to go as soon as the intersection was clear. Never try to catch up to a lane of turning traffic to squeeze on through because the gap will clear the intersection and the cross traffic will start.

    It was professional, courteous, and efficient. Why can't we do it? No long amber or green is required. Professional drivers make all the difference. I loved it. Returning to the states was very scary as the traffic would launch at a green light regardless if the intersection was clear!... Intersections are very dangerous here. It's not the lights. It's the professionalism. On another note.. If picked up for intoxicated driving, you got your first phone call after a 3 day dry out period. They have very little problems with repeat offenders.

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