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Cities Tampering With Traffic Lights To Generate Revenue

Techdirt is reporting that there has been a rash of reports indicating that red light cameras are being used to generate revenue rather than to promote safety. "Time and time again studies have shown that if cities really wanted to make traffic crossings safer there's a very simple way to do so: increase the length of the yellow light and make sure there's a pause before the cross traffic light turns green (this is done in some places, but not in many others). Tragically, it looks like some cities are doing the opposite! Jeff Nolan points out that six US cities have been caught decreasing the length of the yellow light below the legal limits in an effort to catch more drivers running red lights and [increase] revenue."

25 of 736 comments (clear)

  1. Grounds to contest? by EllisDees · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Would these sneaky moves be grounds to contest the validity of all of the tickets given by traffic cameras in these cities?

    --
    -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    1. Re:Grounds to contest? by Bryansix · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, this is true. But for certain values of time that the yellow light is on the laws of physics dictate that you cannot stop in time. This is THE POINT of the yellow light. It it to allow people who cannot physically stop their cars in time to clear the intersection before the light turns red.

    2. Re:Grounds to contest? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yep. That's one of things under consideration here in Florida. They want to install traffic cameras at more intersections, but a state law prohibits their use to pass out tickets because, currently, a cop must see you running the red.

      The insurance industry and several other groups are opposed to eliminating the state law because they think there will be more rear-end collisions resulting from traffic cameras, precisely because studies done in other cities with traffic cameras actually bear this out. People don't want a ticket, so they slam on their brakes to stop, short yellow or no. OTOH, the studies show that there would be fewer T-bone collisions, which are the most common types of accidents involving intersections and amongst the most lethal.

      So, they could always just use the fewer "T-bone" accidents as an excuse, and I think this is, in fact, what many cities have done in order to get the traffic cameras.

      Welcome to 1984, citizen. Big Brother is watching you.

    3. Re:Grounds to contest? by hal2814 · · Score: 5, Funny

      "This is the Roscoe P Coltrane method of generating revenue through law enforcement"

      Hey! Show a little respect. Roscoe has to get his revenue money somehow. He goes through 5 to 10 cop cars a day. You think after a while he'd start to notice those pre-fabricated ramps someone keeps putting all over the roads in Hazard County.

    4. Re:Grounds to contest? by piojo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You had the choice not to run the light.

      Really? Suppose I'm used to yellow lights lasting 6 seconds, and I know I can get through the light in 5 seconds. Now the city changes the yellow light length to 3 seconds, without warning. Do I have a choice then? It's worse than that. If a yellow light is short enough, you will neither have enough time to break, nor to make it through the intersection. If the light is shortened sufficiently, anybody without powerful breaks or who is going a few MPH over the speed limit will have to run the red light.
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      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    5. Re:Grounds to contest? by compro01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      yes, the problem being that the lights are being set so short, it cannot be managed reasonably.

      if the light turns yellow when you've hit the "point of no return", the light will be red before you get out of the intersection, resulting in city_revenue++.

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      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    6. Re:Grounds to contest? by Collapsing+Empire · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is a really specious argument. The yellow light could be made 60 seconds long and yet there will still be people who try to make it 59.85 seconds into the yellow and end up running the light because it just changed to red.

      If you see the light turn yellow, so can the people behind you and it is totally their fault if they rear-end you.

      I understand and agree with you that the learned behavior of most people is to try to gun their engines when the light turns yellow. However, that behavior is still wrong, ultimately, and causes accidents for the reason I stated above.

    7. Re:Grounds to contest? by Rei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a really simple way to eliminate this conflict of interest. All traffic tickets of all kind don't go to the city or county. They go to the state. The state then distributes the money back to the cities/counties based on how heavily trafficked their roads are. How much money came from each isn't even factored in.

      Traffic safety laws should be about just that: traffic safety. They shouldn't be a backdoor tax. If we want optimal traffic safety solutions to be chosen, we have to eliminate the financial incentive for suboptimal ones.

      --
      But this Rottweiler not only is snarling and frothing at the mouth; it also went to Harvard.
    8. Re:Grounds to contest? by Intron · · Score: 5, Funny

      Mike Royko had the story about the guy from Chicago getting pulled over in another state. He hands the officer his driver's license with a $20 bill folded around it. The cop tells him he's under arrest for trying to bribe an officer. The guy looks confused and asks "What? Is it more than 20 bucks here?"

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      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    9. Re:Grounds to contest? by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What I am arguing against is the idea that yellow means "floor the gas". The people arguing on this thread are complaining about how taking off a couple of seconds means they no longer can make it through the intersection when their duty was to stop rather than try to push the envelope.

      I think you're arguing with yourself on that point. Everybody else is saying this:

      When the light turns yellow, at some speed under the speed limit, I have two legal choices: brake or don't brake. Let's assume that gunning it isn't even an option. At some distance from the light you will not be able to safely stop in time to avoid ending up in the intersection. In those situations, you should continue going under yellow. Problem is, if the light's too short, there may be a certain region where you can't make it through without accelerating OR brake in time without ending up in the intersection. That's what people are trying to point out - it's not that people are trying to 'push it', it's that the light can get short enough that there's no legal, safe choice. And that's bad.

      The fact is, when jurisdictions start playing with the yellow interval like that, rear-end accidents go way up. So the people who jam on the brakes in an attempt to not get ticketed just get rear ended. That shouldn't occur, and I think those people in particular should have legal recourse against the city/county.

    10. Re:Grounds to contest? by sm62704 · · Score: 5, Informative

      That doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't see how it would fly. If you hit someone in the rear, you're following too close!

      A friend of my ex-wife once complained about being ticketed when she was in an accident. The light turned yellow, the driver in front of her stopped, and she rear-ended the other driver. Evil-X's friend was livid that the other driver had the gall to stop for a yellow light!

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    11. Re:Grounds to contest? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is a catch 22, with the way the streets and regulations are currently designed, it is impossible to follow all of the traffic laws, and still have a functional road.

      Did you ever see the video where a group of vehicles decided to drive 55 MPH maximum (I think it was in the DC beltway). The result was some absurd traffic backup for miles.

      If you combined a 55mph speed, with a following distance of every vehicle being able to stop if the car in front of them slammed on their brakes, the result would be that probably every highway on the Eastern seaboard would be gridlocked.

      For most driving situations, you won't encounter a person slamming on their brakes for a situation that you cannot see in front of them. That is why these cameras are so dangerous, you create yet another situation where someone will slam on their brakes, for a condition that the car behind them can't predict (usually you can also see if a pedestrian walks out). It adds one more danger to the roads when it would actually be safer for the driveway to go through the intersection when it is yellow (which is what they are supposed to do if it is too late to stop when the yellow turns on)

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    12. Re:Grounds to contest? by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 5, Informative

      Houston is another city that is installing red
      light cameras just as fast as they can get them up.

      Police review the video footage of any
      vehicle that triggers the camera. If you're found
      to have committed the offense, the ticket is
      generated and mailed to you. They also send a link
      along to the video where you can watch yourself
      blow the light :)

      You normally won't see a ticket if the light
      was still yellow on entering the intersection.
      Most folks who are seeing the violations are
      blatantly blasting through the intersection
      after the light has gone red.

      So the way the system is set up currently, you
      can tell fairly quickly if the light is cycling
      faster than it should and if you truly deserved
      the citation.

    13. Re:Grounds to contest? by Dahamma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or manslaughter charges to any city employee who knowingly manipulated a traffic light timing to unsafe values that resulted in a traffic death!

    14. Re:Grounds to contest? by sumdumass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What if he had good tires, did drive slower in the rain and was aware of intersections and the Yellow light was so short that he didn't have adequate reaction time to safely stop before entering the intersection?

      The problem with Redlight cameras and the changing of the light timing is that people are getting burnt when there isn't enough time between the yellow light and for a normal person to come to a complete and safe stop. The entire idea of having to slam on the breaks to stop from running the light should be enough indication that either the posted speed limit is too fast or the light timing is too short.

      After calculating a fraction of a second to allow for the driver to notice a yellow light, there should be enough time to come to a reasonable stop in any vehicle traveling on the roadway before the yellow goes red. That is just common sense. I mean following too close behind another vehicle is dictated by the speed and stopping distance plus reaction time of the vehicles. If the traffic lights don't at least figure that into the equation, it is rigged to rob people of their hard earned money.

    15. Re:Grounds to contest? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe his reply wasn't meant to be in paragraphs. Maybe it was 'free verse' poetry. :)

  2. Bastards by protolith · · Score: 5, Funny

    I guess I will have to drive faster to make those yellow lights, You know, lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph.

  3. Not news by longacre · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Quite simply, if they were there for safety, cities would put warning signs up at intersections that have cameras, people would slow down, less people would run lights, and less accidents would occur. I have never seen a warning sign at such an intersection, so their financial motives are pretty clear.

  4. As the quote goes... by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "In the 1980s capitalism triumphed over communism. In the 1990s it triumphed over democracy."

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    "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
    1. Re:As the quote goes... by Arterion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the 2000s, it triumphed over common sense.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  5. Actual story is at Motorists.org by DocJohn · · Score: 5, Informative

    After jumping through two blogs (neither of which are the actual story), you'll come to Motorists.org -- the National Motorists Association -- and find the story, dated March 26, 2008 (3 weeks ago). Reading the story, you'll see they cite six different local newspaper articles, some dating back more than a year ago:

    http://www.motorists.org/blog/red-light-cameras/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/

    So while indeed this is interesting, it is not particularly "new" nor "news." Cities have been doing this for over a decade, and they occasionally get caught, but more often than not, they do not. They will continue to push for the cameras since they generate virtually "free" revenue (free in the sense of little manpower and little initial investment cost).

  6. Dallas bucks the trend by RobertB-DC · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Dallas recently installed red-light cameras. I'll testify that red-light runners were a major problem here, but I didn't support the cameras because of the potential for abuse. There was concern at City Hall, too, especially from the city's most with-it councilperson, Angela Hunt.

    To the surprise of just about everyone, the cameras worked! People actually started slowing down in time to stop if the light turned yellow. The city became safer.

    But there was an inevitable downside... the cameras' revenue no longer supported their operating cost.

    Once again, the unexpected happened. Dallas did NOT tweak yellow light timing to generate more tickets. Instead, they turned off some of the cameras. Apparently, the contract with the third-party camera operator has a clause that reduces the monthly charge from $3,800 per camera to "a fraction" of that cost (blame the Morning News for failing to tell whether that fraction is 1/10 or 9/10). So they're turning some of them off, noting that "most motorists won't realize this and behave as if the cameras are operational."

    Which is what we wanted all along.

    The city of Dallas is mired in several messes of its own making, resulting in high-profile FBI probes and even a suicide pact between two of its best-known (and most-troubled) behind-the-scenes power brokers. But in this case, the city comes shining through. And the Rangers won a double-header last night, too. Wonders never cease.

    More info available from the Dallas Morning News article.

    More info NOT available from "theNewspaper.com", a self-described "journal of the politics of driving" that never hesitates to pass on a story of red light camera *abuse*. I sent a link to the DMN story, but it never showed up. Agenda much?

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    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  7. As a traffic engineer... by thriftyjd · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...the timing of the Yellow and All-Red intervals are pretty straightforward. The Yellow should be 3-6 seconds long, and is based upon the approach speeds (the higher the speed, the longer the Yellow). The purpose of the Yellow is warn traffic of an impending change in Right-of-Way assignment. On a typical urban roadway with speeds of 30 mph, the Yellow should be 3 seconds long.

    The All-Red interval should also be 3-6 seconds long, and should be based upon the geometry and size of the intersection, as well as the approach speeds. The purpose of the All-Red interval is to ensure that the intersection is clear of crossing traffic prior to assigning the Right-of-Way to a side street or pedestrian crossing. To determine the appropriate length of an All-Red interval, you need measure the distance from the stop line to the far side of the intersection (typically past the far crosswalk) and determine the approach speed. 30 m.p.h. = 44 ft/sec, so if the distance from the stop line to the far crosswalk is 88 feet, the appropriate All-Red interval would be 2 seconds. To be conservative, you can also add the length of a typical vehicle (~25 ft.) into the equation.

    With that knowledge in hand, you may be able to fight a red light-running ticket if you believe the timing provided for you was too short. Those are the general guidelines across the US. Individual states, counties, and cities may have different criteria, though.

  8. And cameras may even have a negative impact? by joe_n_bloe · · Score: 5, Informative
    According to an article in the Washington Post, not only have red light cameras failed to reduce the number of accidents at intersections where they were installed, but in many cases the number of traffic accidents in those accidents actually increased dramatically.

    The analysis shows that the number of crashes at locations with cameras more than doubled, from 365 collisions in 1998 to 755 last year. Injury and fatal crashes climbed 81 percent, from 144 such wrecks to 262. Broadside crashes, also known as right-angle or T-bone collisions, rose 30 percent, from 81 to 106 during that time frame. Traffic specialists say broadside collisions are especially dangerous because the sides are the most vulnerable areas of cars.

    The city of Baltimore has been under constant scrutiny for red light camera policies that appear to be unsafe and/or in financial conflict with the public interest. In the report mentioned here, Administrative Judge Keith "One T" Mathews wrote the following summary:

    Red light cameras can work to protect the public. Unfortunately, the Baltimore City Red Light Camera Enforcement System (RLCES), as it is presently operated, can be seen as a revenue-producing measure instead of safety-oriented when examined against the following:

    1. Contract between Baltimore City and Affiliated Computer Services, Inc. (ACS)
    2. Contingency vs. Flat-fee Arrangement
    3. Unclear Standards for Yellow Light Settings
    4. Inconsistent and Short Yellow Light Times
    5. Lack of Delay Times/Grace Period
    6. Decreased Minimum Threshold Speed Limits
    7. Lack of Clear Objectives and Measurement Data (especially accident data)

                          These concerns greatly reduce the credibility of the RLCES and the City governing its operability. Therefore, each of these concerns should be addressed in a timely manner to ensure citizen confidence in the use of the RLCES, the City, the police department, and the judicial body that enforces the citations.[2]

    The one thing that red light cameras have always consistently accomplished, however, is revenue generation on a large scale.

  9. Re:Depends on where you live.... by Technician · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was in Okinawa many years ago, I got a local drivers license. Learning their traffic customs was a real eye opener. The first thing I learned is that driving is not a right, but a privilege. The second thing I learned is there are no amateurs. Everyone is a professional driver and professional courtesy is required. As professionals and trained in moving traffic, they treated light a lot diffrently. The hardest thing to get used to was the courtesy at Right Turns (left turns for the US). If you waited for a light, the green meant go to everyone already in line. The greens were very short. On green the turn lane started and the light turned yellow and red right away and the other direction turned green. The turn lane continued to run the red while the green cross traffic professionally waited for the intersection to clear. It is illegal in Japan to proceed into an intersection unless it is safe to do so. This means wait for the turn lane to clear before entering the intersection. If you enter on a green light and hit someone making the turn, it's your fault for entering while unsafe to do so. The was normal, worked and prevented the overflow of traffic trying to get into a turn land from grid locking the straight traffic. There were few turning T-bone accidents. If you weren't in the turn line when it was green, you were expected to stop because the cross traffic was going to go as soon as the intersection was clear. Never try to catch up to a lane of turning traffic to squeeze on through because the gap will clear the intersection and the cross traffic will start.

    It was professional, courteous, and efficient. Why can't we do it? No long amber or green is required. Professional drivers make all the difference. I loved it. Returning to the states was very scary as the traffic would launch at a green light regardless if the intersection was clear!... Intersections are very dangerous here. It's not the lights. It's the professionalism. On another note.. If picked up for intoxicated driving, you got your first phone call after a 3 day dry out period. They have very little problems with repeat offenders.

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    The truth shall set you free!