Game Designers Earn More In UK Than In US

Mark Graham writes "A number of surveys have recently put out details on the wages games developers earn in various parts of the world. Surveys by Develop in Europe and Game Developer in the US were among these. A report now compares the salary levels of various roles in the US and Europe. Turns out that game designers and producers do better in the UK, while artists and QA/testing wages are relatively the same on both sides of the Atlantic — and QA specifically is the worst paid; the lowest salaries being around £12,000/$25,000 — ouch! Luckily, I'm a programmer, but looks like I need to move country: we have the best paid roles in games development, but programmers are better off in America."

Comments

In Useful Dollars

[MBCook]

That's cute and all, but what is that in pocket money? When you take out taxes, health care, rent, gas, water, electricity, phone, internet, etc... how much is left? Is there still an advantage in the UK? Does the advantage switch to the US? Are they about the same then?

Now you'll have to go based on average. Things are more expensive in NYC, Seattle, San Francisco, London, etc. than in smaller places like Dallas, Kansas City, Omaha, etc.

Speaking of which, how does the average salary of the place most of these jobs are located in effect this? Are the UK numbers higher because most video game jobs are located in extremely expensive areas?

Re:In Useful Dollars

[MBCook]

That's a good question. I've wondered that too. I don't think there are any game studios near me. I'm pretty sure I'd have to go at least 75 miles to get to one with more than 2 or 3 employees.

I can think of three reasons.

1. Big companies - Microsoft hires tons of people. Many eventually leave. That leaves a large pool of talent in the Seattle area
2. Industry - This ties in with #1. Nintendo had lots of video game programmers, so not only are there programmers up in Washington, there are game programmers
3. Finance - There are many more banks and VCs and such in a town like Seattle, San Fran, or any other large city than in smaller places like Jackson Hole, Wyoming. That makes it easier to expand your company past 3 people.

Number 2 is probably the biggest reasons. If you want to act, you go to NYC or Hollywood. If you want to be in fashion you go to Paris, Milan, or NYC. If you want to be in games you can go to Seattle, San Fran, or Dallas (they seem to have quite a few, iD among others). Once people start following that advice, it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[snl2587]

Because they're "the suits" and can afford it.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[Swampash]

In related news, people in other places earn different salaries, have different living costs - and this is the real jawdropper - different-colored money than people in America.

Whoa.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[Centurix]

It's where the tea and biscuits are.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[mikael]

All areas are expensive now. The UK is currently experiencing a housing shortage in the South of England and Scotland due to immigration and growth. They need to build at least 120,000 homes/year just to match growth. One solution has been "garden grabbing" where devlopers buy up a house with a large garden, and convert it into a block of flats which are sold to the "Buy-to-Let" market for minimum wage foreign workers.

Another problem is that of (some say overpaid) city workers who earn 100K+ pounds/year + bonuses who are buying everything up. They will buy a house in the outer suburbs of London for work (Home Counties), a house in the countryside for the weekends, and a flat or two for their children in the cities, when they become students. Needless to say, this does have a effect of pricing the locals out - the UK is currently experiencing a migration of 700K nationals/year due to this as well as the increasing Islamic population in the inner city suburbs.
Banks were encouraged to allow first-time buyers to borrow up to 5x their salary, using 100% mortgages.

With interest rates going up and the cost of food going up by 20%/years, this might just change.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[Doug-W]

Because the game industry is mostly a closed industry. If you work in the game industry now, chances are great that your next job will also be in the game industry. This promotes clustering of studios. If you're going to strike out on your own, you strike out where your last position was leading to more studios in the same region. Likewise, before you move for a position you look to see what other studios are there in case it doesn't work out. For the most part you're looking at one of maybe 6 places: Seattle, San Francisco (and down into San Jose), Orange County/LA, San Diego, Austin, Maryland. Are there other studios around? Yes, but pretty much just 1-2 in the entire town. Look at Las Vegas that had Westwood, and when they closed some Westwood people founded Petroglyph, but it's still the only studio in town. Phoenix has Cheyenne Mountain Games and nothing else, Houston has Timegate, and nothing else. Etc...

Re:In Useful Dollars

[iminplaya]

Is there still an advantage in the UK?

Well, yeah...If you need a triple bypass there sure is.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[azuredrake]

There are a fair number of game companies in Boston, too - 2k Boston, Rockstar New England, Harmonix, Blue Fang Games, and Floodgate Entertainment, to name but a few.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[nick_davison]

That's cute and all, but what is that in pocket money? When you take out taxes, health care, rent, gas, water, electricity, phone, internet, etc... how much is left? Is there still an advantage in the UK? Speaking as both an England to America immigrant and as someone who's worked in the games industry:

You pay more tax in the UK but you get more benefits to it. By the time you pay to get those benefits back, you get about the same end result.

Yes, American healthcare is "private" - but the standard private healthcare in the U.S. is very similar in level to NHS care in the UK. The waiting lists might be a little shorter but bean counters are still the order of the day, you're still going in to crowded waiting rooms, the hours are still inconvenient and you get charged far more in copays. Whilst free British compares to paid American, paid British is in a totally different league - nothing I've seen in the states comes close to what I got under WorldCom's BUPA coverage in London.

Food is curious one. When it comes to true budget items, the 5p tins of baked beans and 11p loaves of cheap white bread I bought as a student don't translate in to 9c tins and 20c loaves. Eating out appears cheaper in the U.S. but you then whack on 8% in taxes and the social pressure of 20% tips vs. the UK where tax is already included and tipping is something you do to reward good service, not because the owners are too cheap to pay properly.

Cars... I buy British anyway. Just paid $30,000 for a very comfortably spec'd Mini Cooper S. Would likely pay a little more in Europe, even though there's less shipping. In part that's simply because the dollar's so weak right now. The Lotus I have my heart set on is $45k + options, UK runs about $55k in the US, again because of the weak dollar. Then again, a tube pass cost a fraction of that and wasn't an issue when regularly drunk.

Gas is insanely cheaper in the U.S. Even in California with the current craziness, it's about half the price.

Rent in San Diego gets you a nicer, bigger place than you'd get in London - but doesn't get much cheaper. Commute time is about the same. Distances are much greater but your own car and lighter traffic beats waiting for a tube.

Net access... I don't recall that much of a difference. US companies advertise cheaper rates but they only really apply for three months and then they shoot up plus they tack on endless hidden charges. UK companies get a spanking when they try that.

TV costs... Far more choice in the U.S., most of it crap, almost all of it with more commercials than content. Compared to the BBC, it's insane. Even compared to ITV, there's WAY more advertising to sit through. Most of the good US shows make it to the UK. Most of the good UK shows get remade badly for the states while the originals turn up on strange channels.

There's one other huge difference: The European Working Time Directive vs. Overtime Exempt. In Europe you run in to all kinds of issues for pushing much over 40 hours. Granted, most people end up drifting up around 50 but it doesn't go much higher. In the U.S. gaming industry, 80 hour weeks are very common with crunches up around the 100-120 hour point. That work life balance is worth a fortune.

So, in the scheme of things, life's been pretty comparable. I'm more comfortable than I was in the UK but then I'm also more senior now. Like for like, things may seem more or less expensive but hidden vs. apparent costs quickly bring them back to roughly the same point.

Of course, what England doesn't have, and the main reason I'll probably always stay in Southern California, is consistently good weather. No one here really knows what Seasonal Affective Disorder means. The best comparrison is the best day of any given season in England is the worst day of the same season in California. Hence, even in mid winter, you can wander outside in a t-shirt at lunchtime, soak up the sun, and feel good about life. Of course that's just one part of the states. Try it in Minnesota and you're in for a shock.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[stonertom]

Slightly off topic, but hey whats /. for. I've seen people move both directions because they end up better off, but it does appear that America has a more purely capitalist approach to life. The time this seems most obvious is not in a properly paid professional job, but when you're just getting started. I'd imagine most of the /. crowd worked minimum wage at some point (AFAIK everyone without parents who pay the bills does), and thats where free health care and stricter employment law really counts. My GF is working in the US ATM, and she has to just make sure not to get ill and put up with working conditions that are illegal by EU standards.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, I moved to England from Southern California about 4 years ago. I generally agree with your sentiments, except for a few points.

Cars aren't slightly more expensive to buy, they can be much more expensive. It isn't to do with the weak dollar (which is going nowhere but down). Cars are taxed more in the UK, and depending on engine size, the CO2 tax can be up to 40%. Additionally you also have to pay 17.5% VAT on the car as well. Anyway, I don't have a car anymore, since reading on the train beats sitting in traffic in Los Angeles.

Regarding food, I would say you have to pay about double in the UK to get the same quality. However the UK has pubs with great beer.

The holiday time is definitely great, almost everyone seems to get one month off a year. Its great taking two 2 week holidays in the same year.

I got tired of 365 days of nice weather, so the horrible English weather doesn't seem so bad. I'm looking forward to the summer though (since there was no summer last summer), I haven't felt heat from the sun in a couple years now.

I'm even used to hearing Americans referred to as septics. (Septic tank rhymes with Yank, its a cockney rhyme).

Re:In Useful Dollars

[Anonymous Coward]

It's enough for me to think that overall, stuff is more expensive than it has to be

There's even a name for it: "Rip-off Britain".

On the bright side, we don't have to pay for health insurance, though the NHS isn't as good as some Americans think (in practice it's very hard to get dentistry for free, for example, which explains the stereotype about British teeth!)

but I would still imagine they treat their employees better as well.

Yeah, in Britain you actually need a reason to fire someone, so it's much harder to impose unfair working conditions and then just fire anyone who refuses to do 120-hour weeks.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[dintech]

You're right about the housing shortage and true, buy to let does cause a bit of pressure on house prices but only if the house lies empty. If you think about it, someone who lives in a rented property is unlikely to also live in a bought one. Unless of course they are also a wealthy, countryside dwelling city worker with the money to spare for a rented apartment in town.

Anyway, city workers compete mostly with each other for the same kinds of property. For example, compare property in E14, the postcode of Canary Wharf with that of neighbouring postcodes such as E1, E2 and E3. It's also where the biggest buy to let market is. Rent and mortgage monthly payments are about comparable but you just need the critical mass of the 10% deposit. With the current credit crisis, gone are the days of 100% mortgages.

I work in Canary Wharf as a java devloper and earn about 65K per year and it's quite difficult to afford to rent OR buy in a place that you don't feel like you're taking part in a Crimewatch reconstruction.

I suppose the only good news is that property prices are falling in the uk. Check out Property Snake for the evidence in real terms.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[LithiumX]

The lack of game development in Houston is one reason why I've never even tried for a game dev job. There is a glut of development job posting around here, but it's virtually all business logic, web design, and medical. Nothing stimulating - just work for (hopefully) decent pay.

I'm sniffing around at the developer job market lately, but it's hard to get an actual idea of what is a good figure to ask for in terms of salary. My current salary is laughable (especially considering 8 years of heavy and varied experience), but I also work at an ISP/Datacenter (an industry that never pays well).

The hardest part of making the leap to actually start pursuing jobs is... what kind of salary should I ask for? Historically, I've asked for amounts so low that it's ended up a ripoff, but I have absolutely no reliable idea of what people make - especially .Net programmers (who can switch to Perl, PHP, ASP, VB, C++, x86 Assembly - and can admin a unix or windows box to boot). I don't trust headhunters, and the job sites I look at give wildly varying "standards". Most job postings don't even suggest a figure.

Any suggestions on how to identify a reasonable price tag to put on myself?

Re:In Useful Dollars

[haystor]

Dallas (and Austin) aren't expensive compared to anything in California.

One reason games have to cluster in the same area is that the development cycle is so cyclical. Large numbers of programmers or artists are needed for specific portions of each project but not for the rest of it. This leads to a small core that stays on the project and the rest are either supplemental staff or are employees that rotate from project to project. Basically, the payroll expands and contracts based not just on projects, but on the specific phase of the project. This is much easier to do if there are lots of other game companies around as there will be an available pool of contractors.

Re:In Useful Dollars

[fatgraham]

"Any suggestions on how to identify a reasonable price tag to put on myself?"

Make the prospective employer offer YOU a salary. You are filling THEIR need, find out what it's worth to this company to have that need filled.

On the other hand, if the job is filling YOUR need (money for the bills) then work out how much you need to be paid to cover this

Not unique to the "gaming industry"

[lightversusdark]

Salaries are higher across all walks of life in the UK.
Taxation and the cost of living is however a significantly larger proportion of ones income.
Someone earning in Britain might not expect to keep very much of their salary after tax and bills, but conversely they will not have to save for healthcare or education out of their $25K/a.
Swings and roundabouts.

Re:Not unique to the "gaming industry"

[Lost Engineer]

I hate to make the same post twice, but there seems to be this misconception that US salaries do not include health care. In most cases (especially in software) a benefits package will pay the majority of these costs for a man and his family. This extra compensation is not generally included in salary figures.

You do however contribute 6 or something percent towards OTHER, (jobless, aged, disabled) people's health care costs, which is subtracted from your salary as a tax, although they don't call it that.

The data looks very suspicious to me

[aeoo]

I know a lot of programmers and one artist and I believe all of them make vastly more than indicated on that chart. I think the chart is a bullshit propaganda piece to get people to believe that programmers and other roles make less money than they really do.

I have especially grave doubts in the low and high ends. I wouldn't count intern and 12 year old kids' ("a friend of a CTO's kid who wanted to work here") salaries as low end. And I will never believe than no programmer makes over 70k in game development. Game dev is technically one of the most challenging things you could be doing as a programmer and it must pay a lot more than what's indicated by the article.

Re:The data looks very suspicious to me

[Shados]

Im guessing for programmers they count everything, including QAs and low end staff.

The average salary in the US for a game dev/programmer (not counting interns, QAs, etc) is actually about 83.5k last I checked. (I forget the source).

That said, game development is a field of extremes. The star programmers will make 6 or (::gasps::) even 7 digit if they have parts in the company. Average joe "Programming games is cool!" out of school will have issues paying rent though. Developing business apps is a far more reliable source of income over a long period of time.

News Flash! Weak dollar = low comparitiv salaries!

[Vellmont]

The US dollar is very weak right now, to the point where European banks are considering propping it up. Is it really such a surprise that US salaries are comparatively low if you only consider the exchange ratio?

Exchange ratio's don't look at cost of living in each place. An economist would look at what a "basket of goods" would buy in each country to do a comparison. Exchange rates are based on market forces, and don't necessarily have anything to do with buying power in each country.

Re:News Flash! Weak dollar = low comparitiv salari

[Lost Engineer]

Very true, you win the "basic understanding of economics" prize, which seems to have eluded the submitter.

The worst situation is for those who work in the UK but get paid in dollars (usually Americans.)

Wrong industry

[teh moges]

If you are looking for money, you don't look at making games.

That market consistently pays lower then equivilent skilled programmers in other areas. You make games for passion, not for money. In that case, whether you make more or less money then another country is really not relevant.