Bringing Surgical Robots Into the Mainsteam

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Bringing Surgical Robots Into the Mainsteam

Posted by Soulskill on Sunday May 4, 2008 @05:17AM from the i'm-a-doctor-not-a-machine-oh-wait dept.

The New York Times is running a story about how using robots to perform surgical operations has been transformed from a controversial dream to reality. Dr. Frederic Moll abandoned his residency for Silicon Valley and helped to revolutionize the industry. The lengthy article also discusses some of his innovations. We've discussed various robot-assisted medical procedures in the past. From the Times: "'I was struck by the size of the incision and injury created just to get inside the body,' Dr. Moll says. 'It felt antiquated.' He took the idea to his employer, Guidant, a medical device company. Guidant decided that robotic surgery was too futuristic and too risky, so Dr. Moll rounded up backers, resigned, and in 1995, founded Intuitive Surgical. The company prospered by proving that robots could deftly handle rigid surgical tools like scalpels and sewing needles through small incisions in a patient's skin."

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I bet... by neokushan · 2008-05-04 05:19 · Score: 2, Funny

They have detailed files on human anatomy.

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+1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
1. Re:I bet... by moderatorrater · 2008-05-04 05:40 · Score: 1
  
  I'm sure they can never have enough, though. If this were my company, I would make absolutely certain to have all the information on anatomy that I could get, whether in photos or movies. Also, I'd make sure that I reviewed all of the information I can, taking a real hands-on approach. When it comes to things like this, I find that I can never get enough.
2. Re:I bet... by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 05:45 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  These machines don't have any knowledge of anatomy.
  
  They are more like "remote control" surgeons than robot surgeons.
  
  It's basically laparoscopic surgery taken to a new level of miniaturization.
  
  analogous to fly-by-wire in planes versus old hydraulic connections.
3. Re:I bet... by AndGodSed · 2008-05-04 05:56 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah when one reads of Robotic surgery the picture of an actual robot operating on a person comes to mind.
  
  If that were the case, I would worry that our future robotic adversaries does, in fact, have detailed knowledge of how we work.
  
  But for now the borg will have to wait - we are still in control. ...in Soviet Russia, we asimilate BORG!
  
  --
  Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
4. Re:I bet... by vertinox · 2008-05-04 05:59 · Score: 1
  
  They have detailed files on human anatomy.
  
  Its CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer. The more contact it has with humans, the more it learns.
  
  --
  "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
  -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
5. Re:I bet... by Hojima · 2008-05-04 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  They obviously need detailed files, however for the robotic surgical procedures, I think you might be getting the wrong idea form the article. There is hardly a stress in the autonomous field, these robots are simply assisting with the work. It'll be many decades (perhaps more), until you'll be able to pull up to a vending machine that'll give you heart surgery.
  
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6. Re:I bet... by vertinox · 2008-05-04 07:11 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  *sighs* I think I was the only other person that got his joke.
  John Connor: You know what you're doing?
  The Terminator: I have detailed files on human anatomy.
  Sarah Connor: Makes you a more efficient killer, right?
  The Terminator: Correct.
  
  --
  "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
  -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
7. Re:I bet... by neokushan · 2008-05-04 10:02 · Score: 1
  
  I'm glad SOMEONE did, otherwise I'd be worried about Skynet taking out the human race using little more than the processing power of a speak-and-spell.
  
  --
  +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
8. Re:I bet... by Dekker3D · 2008-05-04 10:50 · Score: 1
  
  speak-and-spell. yup. did you just pluck that macguiver-esque scenario from E.T. and use it in a joke?
  
  nice one! :D
9. Re:I bet... by Hootenanny · 2008-05-04 13:18 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  This is correct. I've been in the OR for open, laparoscopic, and robotic surgeries. The advantages to the robot, versus standard laparoscopy include: 1) The robotic instruments have numerous articulated joints (i.e. wrists) whereas laparoscopic instruments are straight and more unwieldy in some circumstances. 2) The robotic camera is high-definition and stereoscopic, so the surgeon can see everything in three dimensions, adding additional safety beyond laparoscopy.
  
  The robots are not a panacea - don't bother asking your surgeon to perform a transplant robotically - but under certain circumstances, they make operations easier and safer. An excellent example is when the prostate is removed for cancer. The robot makes it much easier to operate in the pelvis, which is normally an awkward region of the body to access.
10. Re:I bet... by fractoid · 2008-05-04 14:05 · Score: 1
  
  You should go with it if you want to live.
  
  --
  Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
11. Re:I bet... by hotfireball · 2008-05-04 16:49 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  These machines don't have any knowledge of anatomy. They are more like "remote control" surgeons than robot surgeons.
  You are about to cut a surface with the sharp tool. Cancel or allow?..
  
  Allow
  
  Are you sure? Y/N
  
  Y
  
  *shows mouse cursor as a clock*, *HDD works heavily*
  
  *guh!* Error -0xFF46A1: Unable to connect to socket 0x0650 at address 0xFFFF44DD. [ OK ] [ Retry ] [ Ignore ]
  
  OK
  
  *silence*
  
  *still silence*
  
  ...
  
  You are about to cut a surface with the sharp tool. Cancel or allow?..
  
  Allow
  
  Are you sure? Y/N
  
  Y
  
  *shows mouse cursor as a clock*, *HDD works heavily*
  
  *guh!* Error -0xD4EE9: Windows Networking not found. [ Configure ] [ Cancel ]
  
  Configure...
  
  TCP/IP adaptor was not found. Please insert installation DVD to find one.
  
  Driver found, install? (Cancel or Allow?)
  
  Allow
  
  Really?
  
  Y
  
  Really?
  
  R
  
  Really?
  
  *click* OK
  
  *Guh!* Error: The driver from this manufacturer can not be installed on this operating system edition. [ OK ]
  
  *reboot*
  
  Welcome to Windows Vista!
  
  ...
  
  ...
  
  ...
  
  ...
  
  You are about to cut a surface with the sharp tool. Cancel or allow?..
  
  Allow
  
  Are you sure? Y/N
  
  Y
  
  *shows mouse cursor as a clock*, *HDD works heavily*
  
  ...
  
  ...
  
  ...
  
  *patient throws the chair and walks away*
12. Re:I bet... by clang_jangle · 2008-05-04 21:25 · Score: 1
  
  That is so classic. :)
  
  --
  Caveat Utilitor
13. Re:I bet... by Dan541 · 2008-05-05 00:56 · Score: 1
  
  Of course it makes them better at killing...
  
  I mean um.... Healing
  
  --
  An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Autodocs by CRCulver · 2008-05-04 05:22 · Score: 1

I wonder how far away fully automated surgical systems, the "autodocs" of Larry Niven stories like Crashlander , are. While there are no doubt many dangers involved, an automated system would be better for nothing when it comes to things like removing appendixes when the local human doctor is dead or incapacitated.
1. Re:Autodocs by maxume · 2008-05-04 05:54 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  There are experiments or ongoing efforts(don't remember which) towards robots that can operate on a beating heart, something a human surgeon simply can't do. So some of the technology is actually additive, rather than simply useful as an emergency backup.
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
2. Re:Autodocs by Original+Replica · 2008-05-04 06:00 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I wonder how far away fully automated surgical systems, the "autodocs" of Larry Niven stories like Crashlander , are.
  
  I would think that the combination of MRI tech and facial recognition type software could enable robots to see and "understand" the precise physiology of a patient. I don't know how well the triage process or dealing with non-standard problems would work without significant human help. More routine procedures might not be too far away, Lasik surgery is already half way there. I would think an autodoc that could procedures that are not life or death like plastic surgery or setting a broken bone would be possible in the next ten years if there was a well funded organization with that as the goal. But I would be surprised to see a robot that could diagnose and treat serious trauma in less than 50 years.
  
  --
  We are all just people.
3. Re:Autodocs by Hojima · 2008-05-04 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  when the local human doctor is dead or incapacitated. Or just hammered out of his mind.
  
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  Help fight spam
4. Re:Autodocs by Vectronic · 2008-05-04 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  ie: incapacitated
5. Re:Autodocs by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-05 06:31 · Score: 0
  
  Given the speed of information processing for a robot in combination with the ability to deal with high bandwidth sensory input of ambigious type I'd be more suprised if we don't see robots that can diagnose and treat serious trauma in less than 50 years.
  
  A human doctor would be completly overwhelmed if you were to give him 2500 readings on blood pressure in different locations simultaenously, a robot could use that information to determine where severed/clogged blood vessels are located in less than a second and have the most critical under treatment trough pinhole surgery in a few more.
  
  Serious trauma probably is one of the more easier medical conditions to robotize as the damage is very clear.
  
  I'll actually go as far as to say that we could design a very efficient autodoc today already given sufficient funding.
6. Re:Autodocs by fifedrum · 2008-05-05 07:29 · Score: 1
  
  one of the stories has the main character regrown from the neck down... how long until _that_ tech is available... it would be pretty sweet, decapitate, regrow body, rinse, repeat
Title typo: mainsteam by TheLink · 2008-05-04 05:31 · Score: 1

Bringing Surgical Robots Into the Mainsteam?

Sure sounds like a promising Anime scenario: robots, surgery, steam.

Just throw a few pretty high school girls in sailor suits and you have a winner.
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- Too many replies beneath your current threshold
The laws and open sore software by Harmonious+Botch · 2008-05-04 05:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

I can forsee two possible futures:

Laws that say that only an MD is allowed to use a surgical robot, and that a manufacturer can sell them only to MDs, and that you can only sell/distribute software for them if you are an MD. This may seem paranoid perhaps, but consider the lawws restricting x-rays: You can buy an x-ray machine for checking welding seams or for x-raying dogs + cats, but you can't use it on humans.

Or there could be a much looser future, in which anyone can buy one, and anyone can program one. If I were having surgery done by a robot, I'd want one that was running open source software.
1. Re:The laws and open sore software by nrgy · 2008-05-04 05:38 · Score: 0, Offtopic
  
  Make sure Mr Reiser didn't contribute any code :)
2. Re:The laws and open sore software by nametaken · 2008-05-04 05:42 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  I think I'd want every last movement checked, approved, monitored, and then rechecked by an MD.
3. Re:The laws and open sore software by Idiot+with+a+gun · 2008-05-04 05:53 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Of course. But at the reliability rate of current proprietary software, I wouldn't want some company saying "It works, we tested it, trust us!"
4. Re:The laws and open sore software by Have+Blue · 2008-05-04 05:56 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Surgery is just about the last place anyone who isn't a trained expert should be involved.
5. Re:The laws and open sore software by ljj2y · 2008-05-04 05:58 · Score: 1
  
  You bring up an interesting point regarding what operating system these things run. I see them in the OR, and the flashing READY reminds me of my old Commodore 64. Strange this thing was originally designed for NASA. Could the software be 80s vintage like the space shuttle?
6. Re:The laws and open sore software by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 06:00 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  If I were having surgery done by a robot, I'd want one that was running open source software. You'd go into surgery a guy and then you'd wake up as a girl. This is not a bug but a feature, because after much debate the developers collectively agreed girls are neat.
  
  Aw heck who am I kidding, we'd all love that.
7. Re:The laws and open sore software by kmahan · 2008-05-04 06:02 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Times are changing.
  
  An example is the defibrillator. It used to be that only medical professionals were able to purchase/use them. Now there are several such as the Phillips HeartStart that are sold on Amazon. The units are designed so that the average idiot can use them. Slap the pads on the victim's chest, hit the big button, and the unit figures out if the victim needs a shock, and if so gives it. Otherwise it doesn't.
  
  --
  Invalid Checksum. Retrying.
8. Re:The laws and open sore software by Harmonious+Botch · 2008-05-04 06:03 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Surgery is just about the last place anyone who isn't a trained expert should be involved. It is exactly that athoritarian mindset that concerns me. It should be the patient's decision. It's my body; it should be my choice. ( hmmmm, what does this do to the abortion issue? )
9. Re:The laws and open sore software by the_humeister · 2008-05-04 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  Well, I'm not sure those laws are really necessary since anyone who uses one to perform surgeries and isn't certified to actually perform surgeries is practicing medicine without a license, and that's a big no-no (jail and fines and what not).
10. Re:The laws and open sore software by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 06:15 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  I'd especially like it when the OSS gives a seg fault, and the joints jerk into their neutral positions, inadvertantly slicing your abdominal aorta and IVC, causing you to die rapidly of severe internal hemmorage.
11. Re:The laws and open sore software by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 06:38 · Score: 0
  
  Here, let me clarify: You can do whatever you want to your body, but you are an idiot (possibly a dead one) if you are not demanding a trained expert when selecting someone to muck about in your innards.
12. Re:The laws and open sore software by piojo · 2008-05-04 06:39 · Score: 2, Funny
  
  If I were having surgery done by a robot, I'd want one that was running open source software. You'd go into surgery a guy and then you'd wake up as a girl. This is not a bug but a feature, because after much debate the developers collectively agreed girls are neat. I can't help but think this is an oblique reference to Pidgin.
  
  --
  A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
13. Re:The laws and open sore software by NMerriam · 2008-05-04 09:20 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  The FDA approves all medical devices like automated external defibrillators and surgical robots. It's a long, expensive process that is considerably less fungible than, say, pharmaceutical trials.
  
  I've worked with a lot of the surgical robots and voice control systems available in the past decade, and they're much more reliable and consistent in manual performance than whatever random surgeon happens to be on call that day. Sure, a doc always has to be driving the thing -- they're nowhere near autonomous (that's still decades away for even simple things), but the point of the robotics is not to remove the expert decision-making of the doctor, it's to eliminate the mechanical aspects of surgery where most things go unpredictably wrong. Just brushing your glove up lightly against the wrong piece of anatomy can cause major internal bleeding, not to mention how difficult it is to precisely control your hands for every split second of a 14-hour long procedure where doctors might have to trade off several times with all sorts of tools still inside the patient.
  
  The robotics also make an unbeatable teaching tool. The surgeons in 50 years are going to be vastly superior to even the docs we have today, because they'll not only be able to watch from the chief's POV from day one of their residency, they'll be used to rehearsing every procedure in the simulator beforehand and handing off the controls to different specialists elsewhere for a few minutes whenever they need.
  
  --
  Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
14. Re:The laws and open sore software by matt+me · 2008-05-04 09:23 · Score: 1
  
  Agree, I'm sure the patient was rather elsewhere.
15. Re:The laws and open sore software by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 10:53 · Score: 0
  
  I know all about how the FDA are stringent as hell, but sometimes a bit of accuracy is fine to be omitted as long as it's for the sake of humor in a non-vital context in accuracy, eh?
16. Re:The laws and open sore software by timmarhy · 2008-05-04 16:42 · Score: 1
  
  I'd want the one that does the best job. fuck open source if it's inferior.
  
  --
  If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
17. Re:The laws and open sore software by aj50 · 2008-05-05 00:58 · Score: 1
  
  It is exactly that sort of arrogant mindset that can get you into trouble.
  
  Here's a tip: If your estranged wife dies unexpectedly and your lawyer advises you not to testify, don't testify.
  
  --
  I wish to remain anomalous
18. Re:The laws and open sore software by Icarium · 2008-05-05 00:59 · Score: 1
  
  Even if the software driving it is open source, would you be able to identify good code from bad code? (I'm assuming here that you fall under the 99.9% of the population that are not surgeons).
  
  And no, I'm not talking about the quality of the coding. If a machine is going to start poking around in my body, whether it does what it's supposed to is going to be my overriding concern, not whether I have access to source code that perform functions that I don't understand.
Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Yogiz · 2008-05-04 05:50 · Score: -1, Flamebait

I for one do not welcome our new surgery-performing overlords. I study to be a surgeon because it's a job that needs exceptional skill and dedication. I love the stress, the blood, the gore and the responsibility. If all this turns out to be equal to being a common technician and not about being as skilled and concentrated as humanly possible, if robotics allow every first year med student to perform as flawlessly as the highest skilled brain surgeon by compensating for their every mistake, then it's time to move to some third world country. Selfish? Absolutely. I still do hope, that robotic surgery will not be applicable to every single procedure.

I feed on difficulties, challenges and competition and my ego is, by this, most certainly bruised.
1. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Hemogoblin · 2008-05-04 06:06 · Score: 1
  
  I for one do not welcome our new surgery-performing overlords. I study to be a surgeon because it's a job that needs exceptional skill and dedication. I love the stress, the blood, the gore and the responsibility. If all this turns out to be equal to being a common technician and not about being as skilled and concentrated as humanly possible, if robotics allow every first year med student to perform as flawlessly as the highest skilled brain surgeon by compensating for their every mistake, then it's time to move to some third world country. Selfish? Absolutely. I still do hope, that robotic surgery will not be applicable to every single procedure.
  
  I feed on difficulties, challenges and competition and my ego is, by this, most certainly bruised. Your post rather frightens me... when I considered becoming a surgeon, I liked the idea of helping people, but it was the blood and gore that turned me off. Why is this a draw for you?
2. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by maxume · 2008-05-04 06:10 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Early machines will *only* replace technicians. It will be a long-ass time before a machine is actually coming up with new surgical procedures and ideas.
  
  --
  Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
3. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by TXISDude · 2008-05-04 06:11 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Your argument sounds like one that pilots would have tried when autopilots were first installed in cockpits. Just as autopilots changed aviation, just as imaging have changed aviation (radars, ILS) and medicine (x-rays, cat, pet and MRI scans) - high tech robotics can make new things possible in surgury. Less invasive, more precision, better outcomes - but these will all require more skill, not less from the surgeons. Do not confusing cutting of flesh skills (butchery) with modern medicine - Dr. McCoy's word come to mind - I'm a doctor Jim, not a butcher.
  
  --
  Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
4. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Vellmont · 2008-05-04 06:19 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  if robotics allow every first year med student to perform as flawlessly as the highest skilled brain surgeon by compensating for their every mistake, then it's time to move to some third world country.
  
  I kind of doubt it. This device is likely going to be mainly used to do things a surgeon is bad at, and is never going to be good at (nerve fibers in a prostate surgery), or tedious, time consuming things better left to a robot. It seems unlikely it'll put you out of a job.
  
  What I _do_ hope though is that this device can lower costs by reducing complications, or having fewer assistants during a surgery, or perform more surgeries/day, etc.
  
  --
  AccountKiller
5. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Afecks · 2008-05-04 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Wow, you're quite an asshole. You hope that all of humanity remains in the dark so that you can have a job and feel important? You obviously don't really give a shit about helping people so why should we give a shit about your complaints? What would you do if you had both an HIV vaccine and an HIV treatment drug? Let me guess, you'd shelve the vaccine so you can get repeat business, make more money and feel in control.
  
  You're a douchebag and I hope you slam your hands in a car door so you can never work again.
6. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by camperdave · 2008-05-04 06:50 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  So you would rather open a hole in someone's abdomen large enough to get your hands in, just to remove the grape sized growth on their liver, rather than opening a pea sized hole and using a machine? Barbaric. I think you need to rethink things. Sure, surgery requires skill and dedication. It will for quite some time to come. But in the end, it is a common technician type of job: Cut, remove, splice, stitch.
  
  --
  When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
7. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 07:26 · Score: 1, Interesting
  
  I kind of doubt it. This device is likely going to be mainly used to do things a surgeon is bad at, and is never going to be good at (nerve fibers in a prostate surgery), or tedious, time consuming things better left to a robot. It seems unlikely it'll put you out of a job.
  
  What I _do_ hope though is that this device can lower costs by reducing complications, or having fewer assistants during a surgery, or perform more surgeries/day, etc. Your first paragraph is all wrong. This is nothing more than a fancy scalpel. Albeit one with tremor-dampening, and fancy haptics/cameras but still a tool nonetheless. If there is not a person with their hands on the controls, the Da Vinci will sit there and occasionally beep. It enables a person to do things like nerve surgery because it translates large scale, tremor-filled movements into small scale, absolutely smooth ones.
  
  You are correct that it can possibly reduce complications, although there are no studies as of yet saying so and it is much more expensive.
  
  Yes, I have used a Da Vinci.
8. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Yogiz · 2008-05-04 08:55 · Score: 0
  
  Wow, you're quite an asshole. You hope that all of humanity remains in the dark so that you can have a job and feel important? You obviously don't really give a shit about helping people so why should we give a shit about your complaints? What would you do if you had both an HIV vaccine and an HIV treatment drug? Let me guess, you'd shelve the vaccine so you can get repeat business, make more money and feel in control. You're a douchebag and I hope you slam your hands in a car door so you can never work again. This is quite the reaction I expected and it's well justified. It's very natural, that people expect their doctors to be altruistic good-doers and in most areas of medicine that really is the case. I can't say, that the helping people part doesn't work for me at all, because it does, it really is satisfying. It still can't even nearly compete with the rest of the package. Most surgeons I've met seem to think quite alike. There are some, that really do their job purely for the altruism part but they seem to be the minority in surgery. Surgery is about competition and skill and has been since the invention of anesthesia. It's about the physical skill as much knowledge. In reality it is completely impossible to be the nice guy patients expect for every last one of them. Thus there is quite a lot of acting involved. In the end, that kind of attitude that you might not like IS best for the patient. Who do you want to perform your GABG, a mediocre altruist or an egocentric professional who is confident because he/she really is that good? I know which I would prefer and I know which way I'm heading as well. I do not have to want to do good in order to be useful. I can work only for my own pleasure and still do what patients and the public expect of me.
  
  Yes, I do feel important, no, you don't have to give shit about my complaints. I wouldn't shelve the vaccine. I'm not evil and I have nothing against patients getting better and being happy. Quite the opposite. Money does not interest me quite so as recognition. I just seem to prioritise myself over everything else and so far that has only done me good.
  
  I'm sorry for stirring you up, that was just my ugly .02$ If I really do happen to slam my hands between something, you'll have one asshole less who'll fix you up the next time you happen to be in a car crash or when your inflaming appendix is killing you. Luckily for you it seems that with these kinds of developments in medicine you can soon let your GP do the job.
  
  P.S. There might be surgeons here that really do the job so they can help people and nothing more and consider me an asshole as well. In that case I apologise for the stereotyping, feel free to mod me down as well. I only speak of what I have encountered.
9. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 09:42 · Score: 0
  
  If I really do happen to slam my hands between something, you'll have one asshole less who'll fix you up the next time you happen to be in a car crash or when your inflaming appendix is killing you. I'm glad. I wouldn't trust you to work on me anyways. I have to die someday and it might as well be spent not furthering pricks like yourself.
10. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 10:16 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  My word, this guy brings shame to the profession. I hope I never run into you professionally if you are indeed a surgeon. Where are you located (region is ok) -- I am interested to know how you have such cemented views.
  
  To fellow slashdotters, this guy represents only a (hopefully small) subset of the surgical mindset. Early on in medical school I met some a$$hole surgeons who threw tools in the OR and abused staff and residents, and have terrible stories I could tell. Nevertheless, it is far from universal. Some of the best surgeons I met and know are great people, who are definitely not in surgery for money or "prestige," and who were ivy-league educated (as I am) and could have gone to a more lucrative and "prestigious" investment banking job on wall street.
  
  I trained at MGH (Boston) almost a decade ago and there was the entire gamut -- true terrible assholes who felt that they were so good that they had to be assholes, and good surgeons that were good people. I have never really seen a strong correlation between the two as the poster above suggests. There are always the straw arguments that he presents (e.g. would you rather go to a good asshole or a bad nice guy?) Well, how about a good, nice surgeon? Fortunately, they do exist. Even as such, I'm sure my pedigree is better than this poster (I don't have to prove myself and am not obviously as obsessed with "prestige".) Funny thing is I bet I have seen him before as the CT surgery world is not that big and I've presented at major meetings in the past.
  
  Since moving on to a private practice hospital affiliated group, I like to think of myself as having elite skills and the fortune of not being a jerk. All of the guys in my group are people I would (and have) sent my relatives, or enjoy a round of golf with after work.
  
  So, don't fuel any negative views with this guy's flamebaits. Surgeons are people - some good, some not so good, in both skill and attitude.
11. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 10:57 · Score: 0
  
  I'd rather have a surgeon who is humble enough to be worried about doing a good job and confident enough to use every tool available to him than some crazy ego-driven jackass who thinks he can't make a mistake.
  Prima-donna aholes are never as good as they think they are, and I've worked with a lot of them over the years.
12. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Hootenanny · 2008-05-04 13:05 · Score: 1
  
  So you would rather open a hole in someone's abdomen large enough to get your hands in, just to remove the grape sized growth on their liver, rather than opening a pea sized hole and using a machine? Barbaric. I think you need to rethink things. The decision to perform an operation laparoscopically versus open is not as straightforward as you suggest. The overriding goal is patient safety, but smaller incisions do not necessarily imply safer operations. Laparoscopic surgeries almost always take longer than their open counterparts, which means the patient might remain under the effects of anesthesia and numerous other drugs for 6 hours rather than 2 - this is not benign. Also, visibility tends to be greater during open operations, so vital structures may be less likely to be injured than in laparoscopic operations.
  Sure, surgery requires skill and dedication. It will for quite some time to come. But in the end, it is a common technician type of job: Cut, remove, splice, stitch. Ummm... No.
13. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Raenex · 2008-05-04 14:19 · Score: 1
  
  I appreciate your honesty, and understand where you are coming from. It's good to have a drive for personal excellence. However, I hope you outgrow your attitude somewhat, because acting like an elitist asshole is ultimately counter-productive. It alienates people, and will give you a blind spot caused by caring more about yourself and unable to accept legitimate criticism.
  
  When I read your comments I'm reminded a lot of Dr. Moon.
14. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by fractoid · 2008-05-04 14:41 · Score: 1
  
  Who do you want to perform your GABG, a mediocre altruist or an egocentric professional who is confident because he/she really is that good? I'd prefer the guy who is good enough that he's not trying to prove something. You sound like a cowboy, and cowboys CAN perform miracles... but usually they end up falling down due to hubris and lack of planning. I want a professional who can make sure the whole process is done properly, not just some guy who may or may not do an excellent job depending on how many drinks he had the night before or how much his girlfriend is putting out or whatever decides whether he's feeling on form.
  
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15. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Vellmont · 2008-05-04 17:34 · Score: 1
  
  Who do you want to perform your GABG, a mediocre altruist or an egocentric professional who is confident because he/she really is that good?
  
  Ever consider that the "egocentric professional" might just be closer to Frank Burns than Charles Emerson Winchester III? When you think you're the best, it might just wind up hiding a lot of mediocrity.
  
  As a software developer, I've seen little correlation between ego, and skill. Some of the worst code I've seen came from a guy with (reportedly, I never met him) a huge ego. I see little reason why any other profession is any different in this respect.
  
  Douche bag egocentric surgeons certainly are the stereotype we've seen on TV and movies. If it's actually true my guess is it really has more to do with being a defense mechanism against fucking something up than actual skill. If I mess up, someone is inconvenienced for a little while before I fix it. If a surgeon screws up, people can die. One way to deal with this is to believe you're perfect, or at least "the best", and no one could have done better than you did.
  
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16. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Vellmont · 2008-05-04 17:43 · Score: 1
  
  Your first paragraph is all wrong. This is nothing more than a fancy scalpel. Albeit one with tremor-dampening, and fancy haptics/cameras but still a tool nonetheless.
  
  I'm sure you're right. My point is really that all these tools are going to be "surgeon assistants" rather than "surgeon replacements". I have a hard time believing any patient is going to want to trust their internist to do complicated surgery by a robot. Thus those kind of tools will not be developed (and it's likely not even possible).
  
  Anyway, if this guy really wants to worry about being replaced, he should worry about being replaced by a human in India, China, or Thailand. Patients are flying their to hospitals with skilled surgeons that do these procedures at a fraction of the cost.
  
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17. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 18:00 · Score: 0
  
  Clearly you've never taken care of surgical patients. The hallmark of a good surgeon isn't his technical ability. It's his ability to make quick decisions under less than ideal circumstances without all the available data at hand. The human body isn't a computer or a car. You can perform a technically perfect operation and still have disasterous complications for no apparent reason. And trust me, they can come up just like that without any warning. When that happens, no one cares if your hands are good. What they care about is your ability to get the patient through it.
18. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by Yogiz · 2008-05-05 03:29 · Score: 0
  
  I'm sorry for the flamebaiting. I know I might sound like an asshole and probably even am but all this has really been a valid concern to me. I spend most of my time with those in the proffession and althought I prefer not to let it look like it, I am interested what is thought of all that from outside. So I'll reply. Just let me know if I get too redundant.
  
  My word, this guy brings shame to the profession. I hope I never run into you professionally if you are indeed a surgeon. Where are you located (region is ok) -- I am interested to know how you have such cemented views.
  That's interesting. Most people I know seem to think quite the opposite. The fact that I may consider what I do superior to other fields does not mean I go around insulting people or constantly telling them off. I actually get along with reasonable people quite well. My views have always been like that and I can't say they've ever failed me. I work in Europe, I'd rather not be more specific.
  
  To fellow slashdotters, this guy represents only a (hopefully small) subset of the surgical mindset. Early on in medical school I met some a$$hole surgeons who threw tools in the OR and abused staff and residents, and have terrible stories I could tell. Nevertheless, it is far from universal. Some of the best surgeons I met and know are great people, who are definitely not in surgery for money or "prestige," and who were ivy-league educated (as I am) and could have gone to a more lucrative and "prestigious" investment banking job on wall street.
  In that case I apologise to you as well. This is not what I have seen. Yes, I've also met the tool-throwers you mention but not among skilled surgeons. Self-control is something that is well valued around here. I also don't abuse anyone. Nevertheless all the good surgeons I know still have a mindset similar to myself. Those that do not, remain mediocre or change specialties. Again, this is what I see. Money and prestige? You can keep the money, but prestige is really something that I aspire for. This motivates me to do my work better which in turn saves lives.
  
  I trained at MGH (Boston) almost a decade ago and there was the entire gamut -- true terrible assholes who felt that they were so good that they had to be assholes, and good surgeons that were good people. I have never really seen a strong correlation between the two as the poster above suggests. There are always the straw arguments that he presents (e.g. would you rather go to a good asshole or a bad nice guy?) Well, how about a good, nice surgeon? Fortunately, they do exist.
  This may seem like a straw argument but I can say this honestly. I've never seen a great surgeon who is not arrogant, egocentric and doesn't consider himself/herself to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. We have to be overconfident in ourselves. There is no room for doubt in the OR. I would personally never let myself be cut open by someone who is not 200% sure that he is the best man for the job. The fact is, you can't afford to be cocky and arrogant If you aren't good. Kill a couple of patients because you overrate yourself and the respect and career are gone.
  
  Even as such, I'm sure my pedigree is better than this poster (I don't have to prove myself and am not obviously as obsessed with "prestige".) Funny thing is I bet I have seen him before as the CT surgery world is not that big and I've presented at major meetings in the past. Since moving on to a private practice hospital affiliated group, I like to think of myself as having elite skills and the fortune of not being a jerk. All of the guys in my group are people I would (and have) sent my relatives, or enjoy a round of golf with after work. So, don't fuel any negative views with this guy's flamebaits. Surgeons are people - some good, some not so good, in both skill and attitude.
  This is all nice but I still disagree. I'd never recommend a surgeon to someone on the basis that he/she is a nice person. I would re
19. Re:Soon being a surgeon will be worth nothing. by antiquark · 2008-05-05 15:30 · Score: 1
  
  >Cut, remove, splice, stitch.
  
  I think you are exactly right - read Atul Gawande's book Complications, the bit about hernia operations. He talks about it in this interview - http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/stories/2008/2122487.htm
  
  Hmm... also read about the checklist, also by Gawande - http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande
  
  Both show that the mystery about doctors and medicines is somewhat misplaced... in many cases (and a growing percentage) robots rule.
These are fun by Idiot+with+a+gun · 2008-05-04 05:52 · Score: 1

I've actually gotten a chance to play with a surgical robot once, they are amazing. The particular one I worked with had 2 cameras, and coordinating monitors/eyepieces to view through, so you have the proper depth perception to work with. Truly amazing.
These are not robots. by mbone · 2008-05-04 06:10 · Score: 3, Informative

These are not robots. These are medical telepresence devices. They have no artificial intelligence or autonomy at all; they are intended to provide the surgeon with tiny hands and eyes in places they could not otherwise reach.

They are cool machines, but they are not robots.
all hail by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 06:20 · Score: 0

all hail our scalpel wielding robotic overlords.
Oh no by td04impostor · 2008-05-04 06:39 · Score: 2, Funny

Robot surgeons? This is a really bad idea...
Yeah...but, by That_Chubby_Kid · 2008-05-04 06:40 · Score: 1

Have they taught them how to play a round of golf yet?
A day at the hospital by Rui+del-Negro · 2008-05-04 06:44 · Score: 4, Funny

Welcome to MS Surgery 2008 (c) Microsoft 1983-1992

> run appendix

appendix is undefined.

> run "appendix"

appendix not found.

> run "Appendix"

- Appendix script started...
- Setup complete.
- Loading scalpel vector data.
- Reticulating splines.
- Blade initialized.
- Cutting...

[Message from AutoUpdater: an update for LifeSupport.sys is available and will now be installed.]

LifeSupport.sys has performed an illegal operation and was terminated.
Restart? Y/[N]

> y

Restart? Y/[N]

> Y

LifeSupport.sys failed to start due to error:
0000 - General error

Patient has terminated unexpectedly.
Telesurgery by Harmonious+Botch · 2008-05-04 07:22 · Score: 1

These are not robots. These are medical telepresence devices. They have no artificial intelligence or autonomy at all; they are intended to provide the surgeon with tiny hands and eyes in places they could not otherwise reach. They are cool machines, but they are not robots. That sounds good for all of the doctors in India and China and othe relatively poor countries. I'd expect their fees are much lower. When I need surgery, all I have to do is rent the machine, and hire one of them, and make sure that I have a very reliable connection so I can be assured that nothing goes wrong during the operatio..^%^*&(# NO CARRIER...
1. Re:Telesurgery by mbone · 2008-05-04 08:59 · Score: 1
  
  The 200-300 msec round trip latency between the US and India or China is thought to be fatal to such long distance surgery (no pun intended). However, the US DOD is, I think, interested in short distance telesurgery, say Kuwait to Iraq, which should be technically possible.
2. Re:Telesurgery by TheLink · 2008-05-04 16:14 · Score: 1
  
  Killed by lag...
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okay, let me get this straight by Anonymous Coward · 2008-05-04 08:58 · Score: 0

Somehow robots with guns that have uncommanded movements are something that should never be done because it could never be perfected, but robots with knives that are required to have delicate touch lest they kill someone accidentally is considered something that should be no problem to get working... yeah, that makes sense...
Re: by clint999 · 2008-05-05 02:05 · Score: 0

If I were having surgery done by a robot, I'd want one that was running open source software.

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I have used some surgery robots! by DRAGONWEEZEL · 2008-05-05 05:56 · Score: 1

I took part in a demo of a surgery robot (actually a remote control, not a robot). It was really intuitive! In seconds, I learned how to manipulate all the controls, everything felt very comfortable, I was able to move small rings, and place them over spikes, move and rotate in different directions and angles. It was sweet!

As for anatomy, anatomy is different from person to person! some people have their heart on the wrong side! some peoples liver is much larger than others (hopefully mine is I drink like it anyway...) This may work for simple things like stitches though!

A robot could / should not be doing surgery w/o some way to image and KNOW what the anatomy is that they are working on. I don't see robots replacing humans in this aspect for many many years(10 years after decent true AI). There is too much liability, the one time there is something different, OOPS... lawsuit)

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