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Cell Phones, Missing Persons, and Privacy

An anonymous reader sends in a Seattle PI story about the use of cell phone records in missing-person cases. Typically, phone companies turn over location information to police without a warrant if one of their customers is reported missing; the police need only to state that the person may be in danger. In any criminal case, a warrant from a judge would be required before the telcos divulged any information. While in some poster-child cases lives have been saved as a result of this practice, it seems like a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen. It is not a crime to go missing.

295 comments

  1. Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's probably how I'll be found when I crash my car in to a ditch.

  2. It is not a crime to go missing. by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No but it is a crime if someone has taken you against your will. They're not investigating the person missing for criminal activity but because they think that they have been victimized. Privacy is great, perspective is even better.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    1. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 1

      Reading all this just makes me think of "The Wire".

    2. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by juventasone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Made me think of "Into The Wild".

    3. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 5, Informative

      A few weeks ago I had to renew my CPR certification. We had to go over "complied consent". I imagine the same concept applies to cases like this. If the situation is life or death and the victim or their guardians do not decline, it is assumed that they would want any and all help within the ability of the rescuer.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    4. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by sqrt(2) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But you're not able to make that distinction beforehand, and if you can then you should have no trouble proving it to a judge. The ethical dilemma is that, if a person goes missing they may or may not be in danger so if you violate their privacy by tracking them down with their cellphone you're only justified if they were in danger. If they just decided they wanted to leave their town without telling anyone, you've committed a huge breach of their personal privacy for nothing. I usually find it best to err on the side of privacy rather than safety. There's also the precedent it sets of cooperation by the phone companies (as if we didn't have enough of that already) with the government without a warrant.

      If there is need for phone records to be accessed, we have appropriate channels that law enforcement needs to go through to obtain such information.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    5. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by anagama · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Perspective IS a great thing. Let's say I'm stalking you, maybe I'm a law enforcement person with a personal grudge, or a good social engineer with a personal grudge. What better way to get a nice map of your usual hangouts?

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    6. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      How do you decide i have been missing against my will?
      By your logic i must inform the local police office about my whereabouts all the time.
      Didn't the Gestapo have the same requirement in occupied France?

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    7. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by x2A · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're really that desperate for privacy, turn your phone off! For anyone not suffering delusions of grandure (yeah so satalites can read your clothes labels from space, but who thinks they're really that interesting?) and realises that we buy phones because most of us are social creatures rather than paranoid conspiracy nuts, and actually like being able to make contact with other human beings.

      "I usually find it best to err on the side of privacy rather than safety"

      Well, I have friends, we share our lives with each other, and would much prefer we look out for each other than live our lives in fear and have to hide from each other. Maybe we're just unique like that.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    8. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by x2A · · Score: 3, Funny

      Lets say I'm just a crazy person who's attracted to bright lights, and the feeling of a sharp knife going though soft flesh... better turn off all your lights too then!

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    9. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by smolloy · · Score: 3, Informative

      How do you decide i have been missing against my will? You can't. That's why they have to make a judgment call, and, in many cases, they will attempt to err on the side of caution

      By your logic i must inform the local police office about my whereabouts all the time. Not at all. By his logic, if you go missing, they'll try to find you using your cell phone. If you don't want to be found, just switch it off. If you want to ensure your privacy, don't carry a cell phone at all.

      Didn't the Gestapo have the same requirement in occupied France? I'm pretty surprised how quickly Godwin was invoked here!!
    10. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by x2A · · Score: 1

      "How do you decide i have been missing against my will?"

      By enforcing it mwuhahahaaa... I got the cage all ready to go... now just working out where you're likely to be using an IP locator

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    11. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by dave1791 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you want REAL privacy, dig that old phone out of the drawer and pay cash for a pre-pay sim.

      I'm no fan of nannying government or warrantless searches or secret warrants, but I find your position too fundamentalist for my taste; especially when your solution is so easy.

    12. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by cheater512 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you've been kidnapped, I believe the whole idea is to let the authorities find you.

      This only becomes a problem if they start telling the telcos that Mr Xyz is missing when he isnt.
      And then the lawsuit would be quite straight forward.
      Mr Xyz knows that he wasnt missing and can probably back that up.

    13. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by eggnoglatte · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wow, so all criminals have to do is make sure their victims are never found, thus making it illegal for police and others to even start searching? Brilliant!

      The consequences of finding somebody who doesn't want to be found are much, much less severe than the consequences of not finding somebody who needs help, or who has already been murdered.

      And by the way: if you REALLY want to get lost, and don't dump your cellphone, credit cards, etc. then you are a moron, and deserve to be found.

    14. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by syousef · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As much as I value and love my privacy, I'd want someone to investigate if I went missing without a trace. Now once I'd been found if I said I didn't want to reveal my whereabouts I'd hope that was respected.

      The only issue I see here is the potential for abuse. A police officer could lie to get the records and wouldn't be questioned about it. What if that police officer is corrupt? Sounds like a good way to find someone who was trying to dob them in and silence them. I bet other slashdotters can think of plenty of other hypotheticals for abuse.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    15. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by freedom_india · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If you don't want to be found, just switch it off. If you want to ensure your privacy, don't carry a cell phone at all. Yup. And if i don't want a headache, i just cut off my head! No sinus worries, no blocked nose, no headache. Nope.
      Sorry, it does not work. Unless there is a specific complaint regarding a missing person, the cops should have zero right to proactively locate a missing person.
      After all courts have repeatedly ruled that cops are not liable legally for not stopping a crime. So on same rule, they can't take action without a complaint to search for person they think is missing.
      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    16. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 1

      If they just decided they wanted to leave their town without telling anyone, you've committed a huge breach of their personal privacy for nothing.

      They could leave their cell phone behind, or remove the battery if they want to take the cell phone with them. Net result: a very slight inconvenience on those who want to leave town without telling someone.

    17. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Eskarel · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Just because you don't need a warrant doesn't mean you can do anything you want it'll still be logged that you made the request and if you start making a habit of it, folks are going to notice.

      If you want to worry about being stalked via your mobile phone, be worried about the phone company employees not the police.

      I don't trust law enforcement any more than the next guy, but so long as they're logging the requests somewhere and looking for suspicious patterns I don't see a problem.

    18. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by compro01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe the term is different where you are, but I'm fairly sure that's "implied consent".

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    19. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Reziac · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Is there anything in law where if the authorities go looking for a missing person, and find them, the "missing" person can state that they WANT to remain "lost" and the authorities will have to honour that??

      (I mean under normal, nonthreatening conditions, not just battered women's shelters and the like, where the assumption is already that you wish to remain "lost".)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    20. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. I "went missing" many a year ago (though not too long). My family were worried sick, and through the usual circumstances, running out of money etc, I did some petty crime, and was in fairly short order arrested. Sitting in the jail cell at the local police station (and I was over 18, though only just), a detective came in, and said "Did you realize you're listed as a missing person?"

      He went on to say, and this is despite me being charged with a crime (not that should make any difference, but clearly, he had no reason to do me any favors), "We can contact your family and let them know that you are alright. We won't, and can't, tell them where you are without your consent." (This was in Australia - YMMV)

      In the end, I asked him to tell them, and they came and helped out. All was well.

    21. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Far as I know, police will not actually institute a search for a missing person unless there is some likelihood of bodily harm or misadventure.

      However, I do think that if a missing person is "found" and declares that they wish to remain lost, the cops should, by law, be required to honour that.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    22. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most warrants are issued when there is no proof of criminal activity, only a realistic possibility ("probable cause") that it may be occurring. Think of it, if a crime is already proven, why waste time and money searching for more evidence?

      If a person is missing without living a reasonable explanation, it's more likely than not that a crime has been committed. Most people at least leave a note or make a phone call if they run away from their spouse. Running away as a minor, from your own children or from a debt is a crime by itself. Given the massive loss of public resources otherwise, the law should probably require a signed note, without indication of new address needed, if someone just wants to be left alone.

      Until then, if an adult with no outstanding obligation is found by police but does not wish to go back to his/her family, their whereabouts should not be revealed to any private citizens and their cell phone records should not be examined without a probable cause for investigating other crimes.

    23. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      How do you decide i have been missing against my will? Well, I could note that you a) under 18 and can not legally consent to be missing, b) not paying child support for 3 kids you left behind, c) did not file your tax report (with legally changed name and SSN if required by your personal privacy concerns) or d) neglected your credit card bills.
    24. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Are you sure? The consequences of the government invading an individual's privacy is the destruction of the foundation of our entire government. A person dying is business as usual and happens thousands of times a day.

      But yeah, "getting lost" while carrying all your identifying information doesn't make much sense either.

    25. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by hughk · · Score: 4, Informative

      I believe this the approach of the Salvation Army, who, although a God Squad do some good work amongst the down and outs and operate a very good missing persons service. Their approach on finding someone is to tell them they are being looked for and by whom and then to ask if it is ok to pass back the news that the person is in good health and then at the 'missing' person's choice, put them in contact with the person reporting them missing.

      The thing is that the Sally Army do a personal visit to check things are ok. A mobile company calling you to find out whether you want to be found is too liable to abuse. That is, you could be kidnapped by a cult and forced to say you were ok and nobody would be the wiser.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    26. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Stanislav_J · · Score: 4, Insightful

      .....we buy phones because most of us are social creatures rather than paranoid conspiracy nuts, and actually like being able to make contact with other human beings.

      Not necessarily. The reason -- and the ONLY reason -- I even own a cellphone is to keep tabs on my 80-year old disabled shut-in mother (for whom I am a full-time caretaker) and enable her to contact me in an emergency if I am out running errands. If it weren't for that need, I wouldn't have the slightest interest in the damn thing. Unlike most people nowadays, I like being alone with my thoughts, my music, or whatever while out and about, and do not have the compulsive need to be constantly talking to anyone about anything at all times. Yes, I have friends (very few -- I look for quality, not quantity), but I chat with them in the privacy and comfort of my own home, maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so. I do not have the need to be yakking with them for hours on end about trivia while riding the bus or shopping at the supermarket or eating lunch out, nor the desire to broadcast those personal conversations to all within earshot.

      To me, all these modern devices have made communication too easy and cheapened it, lowering it to the level of a nervous habit akin to chewing gum. We have vastly increased the ability to communicate, yet added nothing of substance or value to that communication. And I believe we are worse off as a society because of it.

      Feel free to mod me down as "-1 old fogy."

      --
      "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
    27. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I agree entirely that it needs to be done by an "escrow service" ... the cops could do it too, but I think a 3rd party would be better (given that anything gov't or gov't-mandated is too open to abuse). Didn't know the Sally Ann's did it, but definitely how it should be done -- so if you WANT to be missing, you can STAY missing.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    28. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      In all these instances, there is an external factor involved.
      Am not talking about these instances, where you are running away from fraud and legal duties.
      Iam talking about a person who has no dues legally, is above 18 yrs, and furthermore, just wishes to relocate anonymously. Yes he does file tax returns.
      Am talking about getting a new identity because i facing a hard time.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    29. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe he's thinking of Robocop-style consent:

      'You have 20 seconds to comply!'

    30. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by DontScotty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If that was true - then you could get by with a pager. You can get them - they are cheap. And, a simple analog pager would allow you to be -5 old fogey

    31. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by kitsunewarlock · · Score: 1

      Or the right type of walkie-talkie, assuming you don't go too far...

      --
      Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
    32. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by ray-auch · · Score: 1

      > How do you decide i have been missing against my will?

      If you were missing deliberately, and had any kind of a clue, you'd have ditched your phone - so tracing it won't make any difference.

    33. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by English+French+Man · · Score: 1

      In that case, who's going to look for him?

      His friends could just phone him if he keeps his cellphone on, couldn't they ? And if he doens't answer, authorities will find him, tell him his friends miss him, but if he is gone by free will, what can they possibly do?

      --
      If I'm wrong, please correct me ; learning is better than being right.
    34. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by hansraj · · Score: 1

      You are so irrational that even Euclid knew it!

    35. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by x2A · · Score: 1

      "and do not have the compulsive need to be constantly talking to anyone about anything at all times"

      No compulsive need here... but I have to say, I do like the fact that my friends know I'm there for them, wherever we are, if something goes wrong, they never have to deal with it alone, or if something good happens, they can always share it.

      "To me, all these modern devices have made communication too easy and cheapened it"

      I'm sorry that that has been your experience. Mine's been the oposite, and with it, I get the joy of watching a circle of good people strengthen as we all become more supportive of each other. It can be difficult for new people coming in, after being used to living more private/closed lives, but generally once the realisation comes that we're non judgemental (well, most of us), non manipulative people, the sharing inhibitions go, because there's no need for excessive privacy beyond basic decency. The proud don't feel the need to hide away, which more often than not, can give you more chance to have more to be proud about.

      I don't understand the complains about people talking on their phones. What if the other person they were talking to was right there? Still talking about the same things, still as much in your ear space... just that your brain's not trying to listen in to figure out the other side of the conversation, which is why people really have a problem with mobile phones.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    36. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by zennyboy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Reading all this just makes me think of "The Wire". Reading that made me think of "The Wife"
    37. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by zennyboy · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the complains about people talking on their phones. What if the other person they were talking to was right there? Volume :-)
    38. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "How do you decide i have been missing against my will?"

      Well if I were inspector plod the first thing I would do is call the mobile number supplied by your concerned relative and ask you. No answer or no number then I would make an official request to the phone company to give me your number to ask if your ok. Still no joy and I might try other technological means to find you and ask if your ok. If at any stage you say your ok then I will let your concerned relative know your ok, I would not give them any other information about you. In other words I would follow a common sense process worked out over many years to try and identify if someone really is in trouble and needs help.

      "Didn't the Gestapo have the same requirement in occupied France?"

      The nazi's loved paperwork and rubber stamps, they were regularly fooled by official looking documents simply because they had no way of easily detecting forgeries.

      Is there a possibility that I (as inspector plod) am a corrupt cop and will misuse the offical request to settle a personal grudge? - Well yes, however there is also a chance I could use my service pistol to shot you, my patrol car to run you over, or any of a miryiad of other government supplied "tools" to help me get at you.

      Taking away usefull tools will not solve corruption and in many cases would actually help corruption to flourish. The only way to minimise corruption is via accountability and transparency but nothing less than extinction of the human race will ever wipe it out completely.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    39. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by dreamchaser · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I don't understand the complains about people talking on their phones. What if the other person they were talking to was right there? Still talking about the same things, still as much in your ear space... "

      Speaking as someone who loves his mobile devices, I think you're missing the point on this bit. It's very annoying because it's LOUDER. When two people are engaged in conversation in person they tend to speak in lower tones, FAR lower than most cellphone talkers. It's rude and annoying and I'm glad some establishments are cracking down on the practice. There's a time and place to have a nice phone chat; while I am crammed into a seat next to you in a movie, eater, bus, or plane are not those times and places. Unless of course you want me to use your phone on you as a suppository :)

    40. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      If you're really that desperate for privacy, turn your phone off!

      But conversely, my kidnapper is likely to switch my phone off. I'm not likely to make any calls (except to emergency services) if I'm lying injured in a ditch.

      If my phone is on, working and making calls at semi-regular intervals, I'm probably OK.

      HAL.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    41. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by madjia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like being alone with my thoughts, my music, or whatever while out and about, and do not have the compulsive need to be constantly talking to anyone about anything at all times.

      You may not like to do that on cell phones or face to face very often, but obviously you enjoy discussing things on /., sharing thoughts and in a way being a social creature. Or am I seeing it all wrong?

      /. takes advantage of the increased ability to communicate worldwide about the latest news and to me it certainly has added value and substance.

      Just like the reason you own a cellphone certainly can have a lot of substance and our lives may be less without them. What if there's an emergency when you're going on an errand and there were no cell phones at all?
    42. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by pla · · Score: 2, Insightful

      lowering it to the level of a nervous habit akin to chewing gum.

      Oddly enough, I agree with you on everything except gum.

      Personally, I chew gum because it helps keeps my mouth clean and my teeth healthy... And yes, some studies have found it lowers stress, but I consider that a side-benefit rather than an actual reason to chew.

      But then, I suppose tis reflects a generational thing... Personally, I would much rather talk to someone chewing gum over someone on whose breath you can smell everything they've eaten over the course of the day. Mmmm, chive and lox, what better way to enforce a 10ft "personal space" zone around yourself? ;-)

    43. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by beadfulthings · · Score: 1

      If I run off the road or fall off a mountain, I hope you're running the search party rather than the person you've replied to. You can also feel free to call the fire department if you see smoke pouring from my house. I'll be sure to do the same for you.

      --
      "Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
    44. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by perlchild · · Score: 1

      So you're saying the cops should go get a warrant for those records(basically getting a judge to say he really thinks the person is missing) first? In a case of life or death, 99 out of a hundred privacy vs 1 death, the one death loses.

      However,I worry that with a too open policy of giving records to police, people would be found missing, just to get them tracked.

      I think the phone company should get a written statement saying the police is not interested in the potential victim as a suspect first, and will not use the information in any criminal case where the victim is not a victim(the legalese escapes me right now). What I'm saying is if the cops don't need to get a warrant for it, and it's protected by privacy, they shouldn't be able to use it, period, that way lies fishing for suspects and madness.

    45. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there anything in law where if the authorities go looking for a missing person, and find them, the "missing" person can state that they WANT to remain "lost" and the authorities will have to honour that?? No. I am fairly sure you have to be "found." I was involved in a case where a lost person's final phone call to a relative indicated that they were going to commit suicide. A week long search ensued near where his vehicle was found. He was later found across state lines, not wanting to be found.

      The end results of that case, I believe is that the state wound up going after him for the cost of the search. Not sure if they got it...
    46. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by exploder · · Score: 5, Funny

      Or a Bat-signal.

      --
      Yo dawg, I heard you like the Ackermann function, so OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD
    47. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .....we buy phones because most of us ... actually like being able to make contact with other human beings.



      Not necessarily. The reason -- and the ONLY reason -- I even own a cellphone is to keep tabs on my 80-year old disabled shut-in mother (for whom I am a full-time caretaker) and enable her to contact me in an emergency if I am out running errands.

      That is exactly the same as "making contact with other human beings," only in smaller scale.
    48. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Stanislav_J · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the complains about people talking on their phones. What if the other person they were talking to was right there? Still talking about the same things, still as much in your ear space...

      Actually, that can be just as bad, probably worse. It amazes me how LOUDLY some people seem to think they have to talk when their conversational partner is seated three feet away from them. Many a time I've been on a bus and, with my own headphones turned up loud, I can still hear and understand the conversation of people seated 2/3 of the way down the bus from me. There is a restaurant where I sometimes eat breakfast in which a group on 3 people often are there at the same time, and you can clearly hear their conversations throughout the entire (fairly large) room.

      I suppose what puzzles me is: I know that expecting folks to have any sense of courtesy towards others is long gone in our society. But what about YOU, Mr. or Ms. Loud Talker? Why do you not care that everybody within 50 feet of you can hear your private business? If I am in public chatting with a friend, my conversation is intended for that person's ears only, and needs go no further. And please don't give me that excuse along the lines of "well, some people just naturally talk loudly -- that is their 'normal' voice." Sorry -- we intelligent monkeys have these things call brains that regulate what our bodies do. My brain can instruct my voice to speak in a barely audible whisper, or scream at the top of my lungs, and everything in-between. It's not a matter of not being able to moderate one's voice -- it's a matter of not caring. And having no sense of self-control or caring that perfect strangers can hear all the details of your brother's operation, or the hot date you had last night. They don't want or need to hear it, and you shouldn't want them to hear it.

      --
      "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
    49. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      The nazi's loved paperwork and rubber stamps, they were regularly fooled by official looking documents simply because they had no way of easily detecting forgeries. Unfortunately not true.
      The nazis were able to capture every single agent dropped into occupied Denmark and with their help capture agents in paris.
      The underground was not so much serious trouble to them as the west press made it out to be (unlike Iraq today).
      The SS and Abwehr were much more organized although both were at each other's throats all the time.
      The SS primarily ruled by fear rather than tanks. (Paris had hardly tanks out in public except for show). And they knew the value of good intelligence acquired through contacts rather than beatings. They would rather resort to beating after the target was captured. But they never shot an informant.

      The threat and invisible show of force with the sinister smile and unknown secrets were more than enough to keep france occupied and not be liberated by partisans as Iraq today is.
      (Disclaimer: I do NOT condone SS nor do i support them. They were the most heinous criminals on Earth and each deserved to be hung on hooks many times over.)
      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    50. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Thyamine · · Score: 1

      I agree that this should stop most cases, but I think the gray area (in this already gray area) is that for the lawsuit you'd have to show that they should have known you were not truly in danger/missing. In theory this should require a friend/relative reporting it to the police, but I can imagine a few situations where the police may try and push the limit and the privacy victim may have no good recourse.

      --
      I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
    51. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1
      I'm pretty surprised how quickly Godwin was invoked here!!


      That's ok. Israeli President Shimon Peres Godwinned his recent speech.

      Of course the really fun part is how the term "never again" keeps popping up yet we've had Srebrenica, Rwanda, and now Darfur but no one, including Isreal, has lifted a finger to act upon "never again".

      But hey, it's easier to talk the talk than it is to walk the walk.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    52. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Foolicious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You really do sound like a bitter old man. Darn kids.

      So mod down -1 old fogie viewing past with rose-colored glasses. Also mod down -1 too much justification about "quantity vs. quality" of friendships. Also mod down -1 would use cellphone for which supposedly has for "ONLY" one reason for many, many other reasons if an emergency arose, or maybe even if wanted a pizza on the way home from work thus proving it's not so bad to use a cellphone sometimes. That is unless, of course, carry-out pizzas have some how cheapened the entire food experience and dining, in which case he wouldn't do so.

      In all seriousness, everybody talks about email, texting and cellphone use as "cheapening" communication, but it's merely changed it. Communication isn't like money where the primary basis is quantity, and the more you have, the less you usually appreciate it. I like being able to text my wife or friends with quick updates. I like being able to order food from my favorite places conveniently if I am out and about. Does this cheapen anything? No. It's not like I was pining for a deep, face-to-face conversation with the kid working the phones and the fryer at the takeout joint. And I don't try to have deep conversations with my wife using texts. But I just might have a deep conversation with her using our evil, communication-wrecking cellphones!

      --
      Please don't use "umm" or "err" or "erm".
    53. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
      ...some people just naturally talk loudly -- that is their 'normal' voice...My brain can instruct my voice to speak in a barely audible whisper, or scream at the top of my lungs...


      True, unless your feedback loop is broken. auditory damage, aging, and disease can alter one's perception of how loud one's speech is. I know several older folk who don't realize they're talking loudly when they're trying to whisper. They've said some amazingly rude things that were easily heard by the subject of their derision.

      I suffered a severe rupture of my left eardrum as a child, and while it healed people around me told me I was speaking louder than necessary.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    54. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      That really depends on who's missing him. Maybe he wasn't lost, injured, or kidnapped, but that doesn't mean that somebody reported him missing. Maybe he just decided that he had enough of his wife and wanted to get away form her, without the messy arguing that usually happens. Are they allowed to track him down without a warrant because his wife reported him missing?

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    55. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Stanislav_J · · Score: 1

      You may not like to do that on cell phones or face to face very often, but obviously you enjoy discussing things on /., sharing thoughts and in a way being a social creature. Or am I seeing it all wrong?

      Apples and oranges. One, I am typing quietly in the privacy of my own home -- I'm not assaulting innocent bystanders with my business. People who read my comments choose to read them -- I'm not broadcasting them to people who have no interest in this board. Two, I am conveying specific thoughts and comments in response to a particular subject or thread -- I'm not just idly pecking at my keyboard for the sake of something to do. I probably post 3 or 4 messages a week here, if that, and only when I have something that I believe to be germane to the ongoing discussion, whether in the form of a reasoned commentary or simply what I hope is a witty one-liner. (Though the latter are not always viewed as witty by the mods...)

      When it comes to many of the cellphone conversations I hear, a more apt parallel would be if I spent hours on end on Slashdot compulsively responding to every post and thread I could find for no particular reason other than boredom and the inability to be still and at rest. Have you ever actually listened to many of the cellphone conversations that take place around you? People talking endlessly about absolutely nothing of substance. Maybe I'm just a creature apart from most humans, but I don't get that. We communicate (supposedly) to convey information, to express an opinion, to comfort someone emotionally, etc. Talking to just fill up time, alleviate boredom, or avoid dealing with one's own inner thoughts is noise, not communication. (And noise that negatively impacts the lives of those within earshot.) We are losing the art and pleasure of being alone with ourselves -- to contemplate, meditate, or just clear out the cobwebs and relax. You can't do any of that while endlessly yakking about everything under the sun just to be heard.

      I suppose my whole attitude towards the subject is expressed in a favorite quote: "The intelligent man speaks because he has something to say -- the ignorant man speaks because he has to say something."

      --
      "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
    56. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with your examples, but there are also plenty of counter examples such as Shindler or the boys from Betchley park. In the real world the "truth" comes in shades of grey.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    57. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, I have friends, we share our lives with each other, and would much prefer we look out for each other than live our lives in fear and have to hide from each other.
      Straw man arguments are lies.
    58. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      A granny symbol!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    59. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're say that the only reason you bought a cell phone is because you're a .... social creature ...(taking care of another being) and ....like being able to make contact with other human beings. (even if it's only one.)

      Same thing.

    60. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      "Maybe I'm just a creature apart from most humans, but I don't get that. "

      You've got that right... Humans are first and foremost pack animals. As such, heavy communication is a trait of a normal, healthy human. Excessive seclusion, such as that which your comments show tends to point at a rather unhealthy mental state. If you look at other pack mammals, like monkeys, wolves, dolphins, they share the same traits. Dolphins in particular have a huge amount of idle chatter, as can be witnessed when they are at rest in an area.

      Also, you've misunderstood something: Just because YOU don't value the contents of what others discuss does not mean that it is empty. Even by just discussing the subjects they do, they are sharing their mental state etc with each other.

    61. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by dmatos · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's also much more distracting to hear only one side of a conversation. It's like looking at a picture of one half of a face. Your brain can't help but devote effort to try to fill in the other half.

      If you can hear both sides of the conversation, it's much easier to let it fall to the background.

      --

      It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
      --Scott Adams
    62. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by radish · · Score: 1

      Is there anything in law where if the authorities go looking for a missing person, and find them, the "missing" person can state that they WANT to remain "lost" and the authorities will have to honour that??

      Absoloutely (at least in the UK, I assume also in the US). I did some work with the National Missing Persons Helpline a while ago and they explained some of the details. Basically if you're under 18 and are reported missing, and then found, you'll be returned to your parents/guardians in almost all cases. The exceptions would be where there are doubts that you'd be safe there in which case you could be taken into care.

      Over 18 you're obviously responsible for yourself. If I vanished and my wife reported me missing the police would investigate - looking for foul play, but they'd have to suspect a crime had been committed before really searching for me. If they did find me (or if I contacted them myself to tell them I was OK) but I said that I wanted to remain "lost" they would typically tell my wife that I was OK but they'd have no right to tell her where I was. One exception to that would be if they decided I was not capable of making such a decision or looking after myself (e.g. I'd had a breakdown) in which case as my next of kin they'd notify her of my whereabouts.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    63. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      And if i don't want a headache, i just cut off my head! No sinus worries, no blocked nose, no headache. Nope.
      Sorry, it does not work.

      You equate turning off your cell-phone to cutting off your head? Look, I like my phone as much as anyone, but that seems just a little extreme. If you're so desperate to go missing, why exactly do you need your cellphone with you anyway? I imagine that if you're trying to disappear you'd probably not be taking phone-calls.
       

      Unless there is a specific complaint regarding a missing person, the cops should have zero right to proactively locate a missing person.

      Um, the police aren't just picking names out of the phone book to see if they're missing. *Somebody* is reporting them as missing, that's why they're being looked for. Surely you're not suggesting that the person who is missing is the one who has to contact the police to come find them....
       

      After all courts have repeatedly ruled that cops are not liable legally for not stopping a crime.

      "Exigent circumstances". For instance, if the police have good reason to believe that you're torturing someone in your basement, and that serious harm or injury to that person will result without immediate action, they can kick in your door without a warrant. Similarly, if you suddenly are 10 hours late coming home from work after 25 years of being on time, and your wife calls the police, there's a very good chance that something has happened to you and that you're lying on the side of the road in a car wreck. In the cases from TFA, someone called the police and reported a reason why they believed the person was in danger.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    64. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Running away as a minor, from your own children or from a debt is a crime by itself

      Where the heck did you get the idea that running away from a debt is a 'crime'? Running away with security collateral may be a crime. Running away from a court ordered judgment may be a crime. Running away from unsecured debts (or secured if you leave behind the security collateral) is not a crime in the United States of America. We don't have debtors prisons here.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    65. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...As such, heavy communication is a trait of a normal, healthy human. Excessive seclusion, such as that which your comments show tends to point at a rather unhealthy mental state... He's not like the rest of us. He needs re-education, so he can be just like everybody else.

      Quiet people can't be trusted - never know just what is going on it their unhealthy little minds.

      Stamp out non-conformity it weakens the nation.

      Elitist Urber Alles!
    66. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by sharkey · · Score: 1

      Nah, he forces the victim at gunpoint to allow CPR to be performed.

      --

      --
      "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    67. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understood the GP. He's talking more about the crowd where a person is ALWAYS on their cell phone (no offense, but I've seen this more in the teenage females, and it does get quite annoying).

      When I say always, I mean every second of their day talking. While walking down the street, while DRIVING a car, while in a store purchasing something (imagine how hard it is for the employee to ask a question when they dont shut up), etc. etc. The thing is glued to their ear and they hardly pay attention half the time because you don't feel like speaking louder than them/smashing your car into theirs cause they don't know what the hell a turn signal is when switching lanes.

      It's even more infuriating to see this happen in residential areas when kids are around playing in the street and they are talking away on their phones cruising 25-30. Think of the children indeed.

      --
      Disclaimer: I am not god.
      We may not be created equal
      But we can be treated equal.
    68. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Kaukomieli · · Score: 1

      If you want REAL privacy, dig that old phone out of the drawer and pay cash for a pre-pay sim.

      A couple of weeks ago I bought a couple of prepaid-sims for a company-event. They where intended for the staff of the rented building who I wanted to be available via phone.

      I had to leave copies of my personal ID for all six simcards...

    69. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Kaukomieli · · Score: 1

      Wow, so all criminals have to do is make sure their victims are never found, thus making it illegal for police and others to even start searching? Brilliant!

      Wow, so all criminals have to do is make sure their victims do not have cellphones on them when they dump the body, thus making it pointless to locate them via phone-records.

      If you would tell me that disoriented persons could be located that way I am all for it, but please do not start up some bogus-arguments about solving crimes that way.

    70. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Are they allowed to track him down without a warrant because his wife reported him missing?

      That depends, are they going to bill him $500,000 for the search when they find him?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    71. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They where intended for the staff of the rented building who I wanted to be available via phone.

      Hmmm sounds suspicous I'm calling INS.

    72. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by rodentia · · Score: 1

      Is it only here that the correct application of English language semantics can be regarded *insightful*? Or the willy-nilly introduction of a complete neologism as *informative*?

      Pace, Billy.

      --
      illegitimii non ingravare
    73. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      We don't have debtors prisons here. They are called fraudster prisons. You will not be put there if you intended to pay back at the time of making a loan and do not attempt to evade court orders such as wage garnishment. Vanishing casts serious doubt on both of these issues and gives police a probable cause to investigate a crime. Living under an assumed identity puts you in a proven violation of financial and other laws.

      If you think any debt is not criminal, try repeatedly writing bad checks.
    74. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      There are exceptions to the Fourth Amendment bar against warrantless searches. Law enforcement officers can enter private property without a warrant if there is an emergency. For instance, if they hear gunfire or a child begging for their lives, the cops can break in without going to a court first. Pretty much as long as it was reasonable to think there was a bona fide emergency, these searches are upheld. I think a similar provision would apply here.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    75. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Well, if you are still paying your cell phone bill and filing tax returns, police can ascertain that you are not a victim or perpetrator of a client. You better obtain your new identity through a legal court-approved name/SSN change that will again satisfy law enforcement regarding your safety. Buying a fake birth certificate in chinatown doesn't count.

    76. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by JimFive · · Score: 1

      It amazes me how LOUDLY some people seem to think they have to talk when their conversational partner is seated three feet away from them.
      This seems to be an American thing. When I was in France a couple of years ago it seemed that everyone spoke quite softly. Whatever restaurant we went into it seemed that the loudest voice was an American. And when it wasn't I'm concerned that it might have been us.

      --
      JimFive
      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    77. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a person is missing without living a reasonable explanation, it's more likely than not that a crime has been committed. Could you back up that claim somehow? This seems to me like a perfect example of the kind of statement that Schneier mentions:

      "People exaggerate spectacular but rare risks and downplay common risks. People have trouble estimating risks for anything not exactly like their normal situation. Personified risks are perceived to be greater than anonymous risks. People underestimate risks they willingly take and overestimate risks in situations they can't control. Last, people overestimate risks that are being talked about and remain an object of public scrutiny."

      I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but it seems to me that your claim that it's "more likely than not" that a crime is involved if someone disappears is based on your "common sense" rather than on any hard data.
    78. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      There is nothing wrong with someone wanted to disappear and not tell anyone. Most people however don't do that. Most people have someone in their lives that no matter how much they just wanted to disappear would feel compelled to tell that person they were leaving even if not where they were headed so they would not worry. It much more likely that when someone "just disappears" without notify anyone that something is wrong. I would say after you have called all the known friends and family to make certain nobody has heard anything its appropriate to go after cellular records, just not before.

      As long as people don't start getting lazy and skipping that call the friends and relatives step first its not really a privacy violation. I mean if you really really just want to disappear, (which makes you an asshole BTW but you have the right) then you probably have no need to take the cell phone with you anyway and won't and you would have though about your actions and removed the batter if you did want to take it.

      I don't think foul play is statistically all that common either. I bet most of these cases are my car broke down in nowhere USA and I have been waiting in some dumpy motel for the last two days while parts are being shipped to the local garage. I have been there done that.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    79. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by kipman725 · · Score: 1

      flares too goodd for you son? back in my day we had to make do with smoke signals!

    80. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Well, let's start with that a randomly chosen person either is or has a child under 18 years of age and can not legally go missing. The rest of us have bills to pay and responsibilities such as filing tax returns, registering for selective service and appearing for jury duty. I would say that the efforts to free oneself from all legal responsibilities are extensive enough that it will be obvious to authorities that the person is missing voluntarily. If for example you showed up in Caymen islands US embassy to resign your citizenship, a missing person report is probably not warranted.

    81. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It takes 20 minutes to get a warrant over the telephone from a judge. 20 minutes. When the United States Constitution was written, it took a hell of a lot longer to get the required warrant. However, the Bill of Rights still said:

      The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
      If they still do not want to get the warrant, that's fine. But then their violation of the United States Constitution is a legitimate basis for lawsuit.

      (captcha: suspect)
    82. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps YOU have not added substance to your communication. Leave the rest of us out of your lone wolf fantasies. Hopefully you feel your life is rich and fulfilling. I revel in the company and ease of communication. Most of my friends feel the same. We do have substantive talks and we meet in person as much or more than we did before the cell phone. The cell phone has made our meetings far easier to coordinate than before and we are all involved in each others lives. Have a nice isolation Stanislav.

    83. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      That is entirely the persons fault. If the persons last message to anyone was "I'm leaving and don't want to be found" instead of a suicide threat then the police wouldn't have wasted their time.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    84. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      do not attempt to evade court orders such as wage garnishment

      Actually it depends on how you 'evade' them. You aren't breaking the law if you 'evade' a garnishment order by quitting your job. There's no law that says you HAVE to remain gainfully employed.

      Likewise you aren't breaking the law if you leave your job for another company to 'evade' a garnishment order. Your creditors can call you in for a 'debtors examination' to find out where you work or bank and you are required to answer truthfully -- but what's true at 12pm doesn't still have to be true at 5pm -- and they can generally only demand you attend a DE once a year (depending on your state laws).

      Vanishing casts serious doubt on both of these issues and gives police a probable cause to investigate a crime

      If you think the police will 'investigate' someone who disappears while leaving behind consumer debts then I have a bridge that I'd like to sell you. Keeping your car without paying the note might be a crime -- but if I skip town and leave no forwarding address and $10,000 in unsecured debt good luck getting the police to help you.

      Living under an assumed identity puts you in a proven violation of financial and other laws.

      Who said you have to live under an assumed identity? I hid from my creditors for four years in plain sight. PO Boxes, un-listable phone numbers (VoIP and/or pre-paid cellular are popular options), non-local bank accounts (or no bank account) and a refusal to allow credit checks by a business that has your physical address (this is how the credit reporting agencies get your new address) are all perfectly legal steps that make it very hard for a creditor to locate you.

      There is no law that says I can't vanish from my creditors.

      If you think any debt is not criminal, try repeatedly writing bad checks.

      There's a bit of a difference between walking away from a consumer debt that you can't pay for but obtained in good faith and purposefully writing bad checks to defraud a merchant. Obtaining a loan that you have no intention of repaying is fraud (as is lying on a loan application for a Federally chartered bank or credit union) but walking away from a loan that you can't repay is not a criminal act in this country. Making it harder for your creditors to locate you is not a criminal act either.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    85. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 1

      You're right. There are a lot of people talking on their phones.

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    86. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      So on same rule, they can't take action without a complaint to search for person they think is missing. They obviously do think the person is missing. The police wouldn't know about the person without a missing persons report being filed.
      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    87. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0

      The consequences of the government invading an individual's privacy is the destruction of the foundation of our entire government. No, it is not, because the foundation of our entire government is not total privacy for all. The foundation of our entire government is liberty and freedom for all. One does not necessarily need total privacy to have liberty and freedom.
      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    88. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by sbeckstead · · Score: 0

      Neat attitude. I'd rather bring down the government than let someone die that could have been saved. Governments collapse all the time why is that a bad thing.

    89. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      Why the heck is law enforcement concerned about my safety?
      Why should they be?
      If i die in a crime because i dialled 911 and the cops didn't arrive within 5 mins, can my wife sue them?
      Numerous court rulings have set that cops need not stop a crime. They are here to catch the culprits.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    90. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      So, it is your contention that if someone is physically attacked and incapacitated but not robbed, finding that person and gathering the evidence at the scene will not help solve the crime.

      Exactly how do you think crimes are solved?

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    91. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Ioldanach · · Score: 1

      A child begging for their lives? You don't have kids, do you? Ours scream, wail, and beg for their lives when we tell them its time to set the table.

    92. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Probably not.

      Implied consent applies to people unable to respond.

      SO if you find someone in danger, it is assumed they want help;However, if there are able to respond, you need to ask their permission.

      Of course, as soon as they pass out, you have implied permission.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    93. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I usually find it best to err on the side of privacy rather than safety" Wow. I'm never making friends with you.
    94. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "I usually find it best to err on the side of privacy rather than safety."

      the key word there is usually.

      If I go camping and don't return when I say I am going to, find my ass.

      If I don't come home from work, find me.

      If your child doesn't come home from school, and has a cell phone, you probably want them to ne locates as soon as possible, by that I mean right the fuck now.

      No, that is not a 'think of the children' reply. That is a real world situation.

      "..only justified if they were in danger."
      nope. If you had a reason to believe there in danger, that's enough. If it turns out your friend tells you they will be back from camping on the 11th, and the 12th rolls by and he isn't back, you have reason to believe he is 'lost'.

      Now, if he has a history of being late, you may need to wait 3-4 days before anybody will actually do something.

      Now, if you have reason to believe someone was kidnapped, you really need to respond right then and not wait a day for a court order.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    95. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by magisterx · · Score: 1

      You describe the dilemma adequately, but you seem to miss two things: 1. Most people want a balance between privacy and safety, but when it comes down to the wire, most will err on the side of safety, especially when the privacy breach is only to parties that are at least theoretically trustworthy such as the police. (The situation changes if released to a PI for instance.) 2. Someone who decides to go off the net deliberately can readily and easily leave their cell phone behind removing much of that concern.

    96. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Reziac · · Score: 1

      That's true, but I suspect that in most cases where a person just suddenly goes missing AND does not want to be found, they were so overstressed (or wigged out) at the time that any sort of logical behaviour was out of the question, ESPECIALLY contact (even by the proxy of a note) with the people they wish to leave behind.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    97. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmm, I don't notice anyone talking louder. Usually it's about the same tone, sometime quitter.
      People who tlak loud, talk loud. Cell phone communication has gotten to the point where whispers can be heard. This isn't 1994.

      "..eater, bus, or plane "
      You have no expectation of silence in those areas.

      So your compliant actually isn't against cell phones, it's against loud people. Loud being 'more amplitude then a normal conversation.'

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    98. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      analog pager They still make those? o.0

      But seriously, while a pager may be fine for some people, it lacks some basic items that a simple phone would give you. For one thing, you can immediately find out why they had to call you. Maybe they just want you to bring home some OJ while you're out. Or maybe it's some life-threatening situation and they hit speed-dial for you instead of 911. If you miss the call, you can immediately call them back. Even if the don't answer, especially if they don't answer, you've already got a hell of a lot more information than you would have if you couldn't have called them at all. You'd have to ask yourself why they didn't answer.

      And for the GP, you're not an old fogy. Five years ago, my parents basically had to force me into getting my first (and still current) cellphone. It wasn't a money issue, they were going to pay for it. I simply didn't want or need one. I was 20 at the time.
    99. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Jake73 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Perhaps this should be the the impetus for a new "contract with society".

      In the event that I am lost and my cell phone or GPS bracelet or other tracking devices are the only way to find and save me, I agree to just sit there and die. In exchange, I want my privacy back and do not want such records made available to nearly anyone who asks.

    100. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      In some of these cases, the people in the conversation may not have your good hearing. I, for one, now have to ask people to speak up in cluttered surroundings such as a bus or a restaurant, because of hearing loss. I hear just fine in situations where there isn't a lot of background noise, and well enough in the cluttered situations that I don't want to get hearing aids. Sadly for you though, when I am conversing in a public situation, you're going to hear some of it.

      You won't always be young with everything working (except perhaps your compassion).

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    101. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      I'm going to ask how you knew it was an American and not simply someone speaking English.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    102. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On average, over 150000 people die every day. Do you really think governments collapse that often?

    103. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by JimFive · · Score: 1

      Accent and content. The one that really stands out in my memory is the woman talking loudly about the expensive diamond ring she was wearing that her husband bought her when they were in Aspen. And, apart from the rudeness, how stupid do you have to be to talk loudly about how expensive your jewelry is in a public place far from home. (Or even close to home, but at least there you speak the language and know people who might care enough to stop a thief.)
      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    104. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dunno about OP, but almost every person I see talking on a cellphone talks much louder than people in convo face2face. Fucking rude bastards most of them. I think yer in a minority here, mate.

    105. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Your creditors can call you in for a 'debtors examination' to find out where you work or bank and you are required to answer truthfully -- but what's true at 12pm doesn't still have to be true at 5pm -- and they can generally only demand you attend a DE once a year (depending on your state laws). and

      There is no law that says I can't vanish from my creditors. You seem to be so determined to run away from your obligations that you are confusing legality with the fact that you can delay the inevitable for a while or perhaps you are a small potato that is not worth the effort of the creditors or law enforcement. Yes, you don't have to update everyone with your minute-by-minute whereabouts. But eventually creditors can call you to a debtor examination. At this point they will know where you are and so will anyone who can show a legitimate concern. If you were a subject of missing person's report, police will know where you are from your credit report, although you can probably ask them not to make your place of residence public.

      You should have just faced the music and declared bankruptcy or worked out a payment plan. What you actually did could not have been any better for your credit rating or financial bottom line. If you were mistreated by law, you should explain your case rather than talking about the general situation.
    106. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      I do very much think it's cultural. (As an American) I've noticed that Germans and Brits seem to be very loud. Chinese as well. On the other hand Japanese and French seem to be quieter.

      And of course these are all horrifying stereotypes and anecdotal stories at that. Maybe someone should write a paper... ;-)

    107. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by GerardAtJob · · Score: 1

      If you want to leave town without telling anyone... just leave your phone too + a note!

      --
      I can't call that English ;-)
    108. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      In all seriousness, everybody talks about email, texting and cellphone use as "cheapening" communication, but it's merely changed it. Communication isn't like money where the primary basis is quantity, and the more you have, the less you usually appreciate it. I'm not entirely sure that I agree with you here (though I do agree with most of your post). I do think that frequency of communication can lessen the importance of communication. When you saw distant family members once a year, it meant a lot more than when you can get cousin billy's minute-to-minute updates on facebook, etc.

      Now on the otherhand, you CAN get cousin billy's updates, so that's vastly improved communication on a different level.
    109. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Reziac · · Score: 1

      All sounds reasonable enough... In that context, we should consider how the trackability of cellphones perverts the "right to be lost" (which is effectively the right to be anonymous) and how to prevent their abuse.

      Maybe the power switches need to have three settings: ON, OFF, and REALLY OFF. (Removing the batteries is a drag!)

      (No, I don't have a cellphone at all, and this is one reason why. Tho mostly it's "Nothing is so important that it can't wait til I get home!")

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    110. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by operagost · · Score: 1

      Then maybe you should have bought Tracfones with cash at the pharmacy or discount store.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    111. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      You seem to be so determined to run away from your obligations

      That's a pretty big assumption from someone that doesn't know me.

      that you are confusing legality with the fact that you can delay the inevitable for a while

      Actually you can delay it practically forever if you know what you are doing. I leave it to the reader to decide if that's something they want to do. I personally wouldn't advocate purposefully abandoning your 'obligations' but I also tend to think that your obligation to your family outweighs your obligation to Capital One. If you can't meet both of them for whatever reason then it should be painfully obvious to anyone who isn't in the debt collection industry which one is more important.

      But eventually creditors can call you to a debtor examination

      Yes, they can. If they've obtained a judgment against you and if they can locate you to inform you of the DE. You don't seem to realize how easy it is to slip below the radar even in our modern interconnected time. Unless you happen to work for Uncle Sam, good luck finding me if I decide to go underground.

      If you were a subject of missing person's report, police will know where you are from your credit report

      And how do you think your credit report gets your new address? It gets it when you give your new address to existing creditors (or they obtain it from the USPS if you leave a forwarding order) or you apply for new credit using the new address. Not a single one of my credit reports (or CLUE report for that matter) obtained my physical address in the four years that I was living below the radar. They only obtained my PO box because I let them (set up forwarding with the USPS).

      You should have just faced the music and declared bankruptcy or worked out a payment plan

      Actually I did eventually file Ch 7. Wish I had done it earlier. Live and learn.

      What you actually did could not have been any better for your credit rating or financial bottom line

      My financial bottom line has nothing to do with my credit rating. The balance on my savings account or 403(b) plan is not dependent on my credit score. The only service I absolutely need that is (somewhat) dependent on my credit rating is automobile insurance. Everything else is just gravy.

      Granted, my credit score 2.5 years from BK is pretty respectable (720 last month) but my credit score is not a major consideration in my financial planning. If I learned anything from filing bankruptcy it's living within my means and living a cash-only lifestyle. I see no reason to abandon either of those philosophies and I'm personally so disgusted by the practices of the credit card industry that I refuse to do any more business with them then necessary. I have a single credit card from my local credit union that I reserve for trips (hotels/car rentals) or doing business with outfits that I don't want having access to my checking account. And I'm a "deadbeat" -- I pay it off in full every month that I use it.

      If you were mistreated by law, you should explain your case rather than talking about the general situation.

      I wasn't mistreated by law. The only reason we are having this conversation is because I disagreed with your remark that running away from debt is a crime. You still haven't proved that it is either.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    112. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Trillan · · Score: 1

      Perceived value is not the same as value. Perhaps I value getting new photos from long-distance friends less now that they're on Facebook vs. when they would mail them to me. It's quite possible. Much like hot water or electricity, I take them for granted. But it would be very difficult to argue getting photos once a year is in any way a superior method of communication.

    113. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Ok, the person to whom I replied said "In all seriousness, everybody talks about email, texting and cellphone use as "cheapening" communication". That's what I quoted and replied to when I said that frequency can lessen importance. I then, one sentence later said that the frequency and kinds of modern communication can be called "vastly improved communication."

      So in other words, I don't get what you are disputing? Nothing I said could be construed as meaning that modern communication is inferior?

      Perceived value is actually all that matters. You took water for granted, and don't care about wells. Wells have no importance to you (or to me). The existence of municipal water has made them effectively irrelevant for most people. That has lessened the importance, and even cheapened the experience of using wells. That in no way means that wells are superior to plumbing and municipal water supplies! I hope that example works for you.

    114. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Mab_Mass · · Score: 1

      Unless of course you want me to use your phone on you as a suppository :)

      Your business plan intrigues me, and I'd like to hear more details.

    115. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Well, if I was on a jury in a criminal or civil court, someone evading creditors would be enough evidence to me that he/she didn't make the loan in good faith to start with. As it is, you got away with taking other people's money and because of you other Capital One cardholders had to pay higher interest on their accounts instead of taking care of THEIR families. You were just not important enough for the bank to utilize all the legally available resources to track you done. You can be legally obliged to appear in court by making several attempts to serve you in person and then just posting a notice in local newspaper. Your friends and relatives can be compelled to testify about your whereabouts or go to prison for contempt of court. A private detective can follow you after you pick up mail from your post box.

    116. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      From things I overhear, much of conversation is one person directly or indirectly soliciting the opinions of another. To me, it seems reasonable that one is able to benefit from the wisdom and experience of another. If you don't need others to help you come to an opinion, this can seem alien and pointless.

      Of course there's also the person who can't function without someone 'holding their hand' and this can be downright tiresome; I can tell your from experience that to attempt to work within earshot of such a person can be infinitely frustrating. Fortunately, I work in an environment where it's not _entirely_ frowned upon to scream 'shut uuuuuuuppppppppp!' at them (in the nicest possible way) :D

    117. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to disappear and not be traced, get rid of your phone. It is that simple, if you fail to take that simple step, it can be assumed you don't mind people trying to track you to see if you are okay. Phones are cheap these days, you can always buy a new phone in cash so you can't be traced if you really want to.

    118. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      As it is, you got away with taking other people's money and because of you other Capital One cardholders had to pay higher interest on their accounts instead of taking care of THEIR families.

      Are you a lobbyist for the credit card industry?

      You can be legally obliged to appear in court by making several attempts to serve you in person and then just posting a notice in local newspaper.

      Indeed you can. And if you don't show up they can obtain a default judgment. Of course if you no longer live in the 'local area' then that default judgment isn't worth the paper it's printed on (you can have it vacated later) and even if it is good luck collecting it -- ask this guy how effective a civil judgment is.

      Your friends and relatives can be compelled to testify about your whereabouts or go to prison for contempt of court

      That presupposes that they can identify who your friends or family are. I don't recall having to list all of my friends and family members on my last loan application.

      A private detective can follow you after you pick up mail from your post box.

      Yes, if they know where your PO box is.

      You were just not important enough for the bank to utilize all the legally available resources to track you done

      If they had bothered they would probably have found me -- and if I had bothered to hide better they wouldn't have been able to. So what's your point?

      BTW, I still haven't seen a justification for your earlier remark that it's a crime to skip out a debt. Until I do I don't really see any point in continuing this conversation.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    119. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      imagine if you had a device in your home that made noise every few hours. every few hours you had to rush to turn it off and make it shut up. when it makes that noise, you drop what you're doing and run to the device.

      Almost sounds like the device has you trained, doesn't it? Now think about your phone. I own a cellphone, but I don't give the number out and it's turned off at all times unless I am actively making a (n outbound) call on it. I simply hate that we're expected to drop what we're doing and talk to someone just because they called.

      "Let them leave a message", you say. After about 3 of those they get pissed off. The expectation is still that you're SUPPOSED to answer the phone when people call. People get a little freaked out when you don't comply to that norm and hate talking on the phone.

    120. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by iamacat · · Score: 1

      If O.J. Simpson is your role model in regards to handling matters of criminal and civil law, then you have in fact done a good job. He has done nothing illegal in the sense that he was found "not guilty" by the criminal jury and avoided paying a civil judgement. You keep talking about how skillful you were at running away from your creditors. If you have done nothing wrong, why did you have to run? If you obtained the load in good faith and were going to pay off as much of it as you were able, why not go for bankruptcy right away and compensate the creditors with sale of part of your property which is not a life necessity?

    121. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      Your business plan intrigues me, and I'd like to hear more details.

      But I don't have a newsletter...

    122. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by __aailob1448 · · Score: 1

      You're wrong. Cellphone Sound quality is much worse than in-person. Furthermore, there is no lip reading or body language available to assist you. As a general trend, people NEED to speak louder and clearer on a cellphone and sure enough, they do, to the dismay of some people in their vicinity sometimes.

      Stop wasting time nitpicking and talking about exceptions. They ALWAYS exist, we know already. They aren't the norm for sound technical reasons that you cannot ignore. Also, human memory is horribly unreliable and so is your recall of personal experiences.

      Let me reiterate for emphasis: You're wrong.

    123. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May be solution is to use special beacons(like http://findmespot.com/ (or program in cell phone that activates it in beacon mode(this mode can be also auto-activated)?

    124. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Meski · · Score: 1

      I'm going to ask how you knew it was an American and not simply someone speaking English. You must be joking? You've got a collection of quite identifiable accents. Well, so do we (Aussies) and English themselves - with a little practice, you could identify the region of the country as well.
    125. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by sqrt(2) · · Score: 1

      I got a lot of replies but I'm going to respond to this one because it caught my eye in particular.

      You say that, "...most will err on the side of safety" and I do not dispute this claim. In fact, I am all too aware of how true this is. It's also the wrong stance to take, giving up your small liberties, if you value the larger and important ones. Having your records or documents searched without a warrant isn't even a small liberty to lose, that's one of the big ones. It's one of the most important ones. In the end, the problem I have with this is that the police, a law enforcement agency and agent of the government, are seizing phone records without first obtaining a warrant as is required by law. The phone companies are complicit in this. Erosion of civil liberties starts with small things like this, and trading them in for safety is one of the most effective ways the government has of tricking you into cooperating as your rights are chiseled away a little at a time.

      If someone is missing, and it is believed a crime has taken place or they are in danger, there are established protocols for how the police must go about obtaining personal information to aid in the search or investigate a crime. Why does the situation somehow change when an electronic device is involved?

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    126. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by x2A · · Score: 1

      Sure, I don't too much like listening to people shouting, whether they're on their phone or not, but generally I find the main cause of shouting to be stupidity or deafness... if we could ban stupidity that would be great.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    127. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by magisterx · · Score: 1

      You have a good point, but it is a matter of balancing. Warrants, even so called emergency warrants can take time to obtain and that time can be a crucial factor if someone has been kidnapped, lost in the wilderness, etc. It is possible (and I presume as a complete non-expert that it is probably current practice) to draw a bright line between information gathered when someone is seen as a potential victim and as a suspect in terms of how that information can be used. I know personally that should I vanish for an involuntary reason that I would want the authorities to use any and all available resources to include my own records in finding me. Should I for some reason I cannot forsee decide I want to make myself vanish, I would have the foresight to discard the cell phone long before its information was relevant. Allowing the police access to those records prior to a warrant being drawn is definitely a balancing act and I am not saying the police should be given everything carte blanch, but I suspect the number that could be helped by that extra time could be substantial and the number harmed by would be near 0. It is a balance and one we must be careful of going too far down a slippery slope, but in this case I think it is a good trade off.

    128. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by x2A · · Score: 1

      That's gotta be the most stupid selfish pathetic thing I've ever heard, and trust me, you've had a lot of competition. So basically you think that people phoning you is rude, so you won't allow that to happen, and only turn your phone on to inflict on other people what you wouldn't have them do to you themselves? *lol*

      Also, this whole "people just let phones rudely interrupt them" thing that people come out with... what about if it wasn't a phone? What if it was someone knocking at the door? What would you do, ignore that? Or does someone knocking at the door have you well trained? What's so bad about being talked to?

      Jeez.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    129. Re:It is not a crime to go missing. by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      He has done nothing illegal in the sense that he was found "not guilty" by the criminal jury and avoided paying a civil judgement.

      So you admit that skipping out on debts isn't a criminal matter? Thank you, that's all I was looking for.

      You keep talking about how skillful you were at running away from your creditors. If you have done nothing wrong, why did you have to run? If you obtained the load in good faith and were going to pay off as much of it as you were able, why not go for bankruptcy right away

      Because I was a dumbass who bought into the industry propaganda that bankruptcy will ruin your life and forever trash your credit. In spite of the fact that my debt was doubling every 16 months or so (gotta love those 35% penalty APRs and fees) I still held out some hope that I could pay it off without having to file bankruptcy.

      Eventually I realized two things:

      1) I couldn't pay it off in any reasonable amount of time. Nine years was my best projection but that would have required living off ramen noodles for that whole time.
      2) The original creditors that loaned me the money wouldn't have gotten a dime back anyway. Bad debts are eventually sold outright (not assigned) to 'junk debt buyers' for pennies on the dollar. The JDB gets to keep 100% of anything they can manage to collect from you.

      The combination of those two factors and the pending bankruptcy law "reform" (which accomplished nothing other then driving up the cost of filing bankruptcy -- it didn't make it harder for the overwhelming majority of the people that file) convinced me that I had to file. In the years leading up to that I choose to live below the radar because I didn't feel like doing with harassing phone calls and letters from 'creditors' that I never borrowed money from (JDBs) and couldn't pay back in any event.

      Anyway, I wasn't looking for a debate on the morals of 'running away' from debt with you -- I was merely looking for a clarification on the whole "It's a crime to skip out on debt" remark. With few exceptions (child support, taxes, bad checks) that is not the case in the United States.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  3. Really hard to get worked up about this by WK2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's really hard to get worked up about this. If someone is missing, the police look for them. It's great that they use all of their resources. Privacy is great, but so is staying alive.

    --
    Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    1. Re:Really hard to get worked up about this by Cryacin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's really hard to get worked up about this. If someone is missing, the police look for them. It's great that they use all of their resources. Privacy is great, but so is staying alive I really tend to agree. Should I ever disappear willingly and not wish to be able to be found, I can assure you that the cell phone in my name would be on a rather long list of items that I would not be carrying on my person.
      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    2. Re:Really hard to get worked up about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It would be nice if you could tell the cell companies, "Under no circumstances short of a court order are you allowed to ever release my phone records." Then those of us who value privacy over security would be happy, and those who want the security factor would also be happy.

      I agree with the parent poster mostly, though. Personally, if I ever intentionally go missing and do take my phone (unlikely), it'll be without a battery except in the unlikely event I decide to use it.

    3. Re:Really hard to get worked up about this by eggnoglatte · · Score: 1

      Personally, if I ever intentionally go missing and do take my phone (unlikely), it'll be without a battery except in the unlikely event I decide to use it. And why would you take your old phone at all, if your intention was to get lost? You can get a new prepaid, instant activate phone at your local convenience store for something like $19. It ain't an iPhone or a Blackberry, but surely you'd have other priorities if you just decided to escape your old life and start over?
    4. Re:Really hard to get worked up about this by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      If YOU or your effects were searched illegally, as mine have been, then YOU would get worked THE FUCK up about it!!!!!!

      Here is one of the problems: once people look away when illegal searches are done, next thing you know 1000 innocent people (like me) get their records or personal effects searched for every "missing" person who is saved.

      This is clearly demonstrated by hundreds of hears of history. Get out your history books and read all about it.

    5. Re:Really hard to get worked up about this by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      It ain't an iPhone or a Blackberry, but surely you'd have other priorities if you just decided to escape your old life and start over?

      I think your perception of the average Slashdot reader, and mine, may vary significantly...

    6. Re:Really hard to get worked up about this by sheepofblue · · Score: 1

      Agree and if the telco contacted the customer telling them EXACTLY what was given to the police I have no issue. If the person is truly missing then they won't get the notice. If the person is being illegally tracked or harassed they can find out and take legal action against the police. This would seem like a simple answer that balances safety and freedom without damaging either.

  4. It's not a crime to go missing... BUT by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Informative

    The police can dispense with warrants and procedure in cases where they believe immenent harm is possible.

    Also, since we're reading about this in the "Seattle PI", it's worth mentioning that suicide is illegal in the State of Washington and the phone they were tracking belonged to a suicidal young man.

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:It's not a crime to go missing... BUT by violet16 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      it's worth mentioning that suicide is illegal in the State of Washington

      and attracts the death penalty.
    2. Re:It's not a crime to go missing... BUT by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      The police can dispense with warrants and procedure in cases where they believe immenent harm is possible. And who defines the word imminent harm?
      How come they can't be sued for NOT stopping a crime, but they can use imminent harm to dispense with warrants to search my home?
      Sorry, but if they claim they are immune from being sued for crimes being committed under their eyes, then am immune to searching my home without a warrant.
      Either you get a warrant UNDER ALL Conditions, or you don't get warrants under ANY condition.
      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    3. Re:It's not a crime to go missing... BUT by maxume · · Score: 1

      You might want things to be that way but that isn't how they are.

      Actions that police take because of imminent harm still have to pass a warrant style test to be used in a trial, and in most areas a police officer would be cautioned if he repeatedly failed to act appropriately.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:It's not a crime to go missing... BUT by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Oh no, not cautioned! Please, spare the poor law enforcement officer the word of caution!

      Repeatedly overstepping the Constitution should be cause for sentencing, not caution.

    5. Re:It's not a crime to go missing... BUT by maxume · · Score: 1

      Sure, but they get stuck at a desk, not stuck in jail, not liking it is no reason to ignore reality.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  5. Not a crime to go missing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I can only assume you won't be charged with a crime for going missing. Not sure what the point of the article is. If you want to "disappear", get rid of your cell phone.

  6. lawsuits either way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just wait. There will be a lawsuit where some white woman is found in a ditch somewhere and the family will say they and the police begged for the location, but were denied all information. Lawsuit will ensue. I bet they'll settle, too.

    1. Re:lawsuits either way by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      There will be a lawsuit where some white woman is found in a ditch somewhere

      An attractive, young white woman...

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    2. Re:lawsuits either way by scooter.higher · · Score: 1

      An attractive, young, blonde white woman...

      --
      Ramen
    3. Re:lawsuits either way by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      ...pregnant...

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    4. Re:lawsuits either way by icebike · · Score: 1

      With another baby at home...

      Won't somebody thing of the children...!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:lawsuits either way by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. They're complaining that they're so readily revealing information in a missing person's situation, but how big would the lawsuit be if they refused to reveal the details without a warrant and someone died because of it?

      People might complain about breaches of privacy, but they'll complain even more if that privacy leads to an otherwise avoidable death.

    6. Re:lawsuits either way by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Warrants can be issued in almost no time at all, and there are still provisions available to allow for a judge to retroactively provide a warrant in a time of emergency.

    7. Re:lawsuits either way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't forget rich

    8. Re:lawsuits either way by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      But then law enforcement have to put in the effort to prove a warrant is required and some judge has to put in the effort of signing it. Even if it is available quickly, it's still more paperwork and delay that people will want to avoid because it's too bureaucratic.

      Retroactive warrants worry me a little, though. By the time they get it then they've already done what they're wanted to do, whether the judge deemed it acceptable or not!

  7. Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by Discordia115 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    it's unlikely that the police would be able to use any unsavory information they uncovered in any sort of criminal trial. Given that, I can't really get too upset about it.

    1. Re:Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by PPH · · Score: 2, Funny

      The police don't use the information. They give, or sell it to someone else.

      Think industrial espionage. Your competitor wants to keep tabs on you, see who you are meeting with and when. They know someone on the police force who needs a couple of bucks and can use their credentials to get tracking info. and call data.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      Your competitor wants to keep tabs on you, see who you are meeting with and when. They know someone on the police force who needs a couple of bucks and can use their credentials to get tracking info. and call data.

      Oh my god! Jones from WidgetCo is at the Starbucks on main street, call the boys in accounting...

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    3. Re:Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by icebike · · Score: 1

      You've been sampling your inventory again?

      Save the crack for the customers!

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by freedom_india · · Score: 1
      Hey! Lay off him.

      He's correct.

      After all there are corrupt cops almost everywhere you turn around.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    5. Re:Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not so. As long as the police have a valid reason for being where they are (e.g. probable cause, exigent circumstances), they are allowed to see, think, and testify.

    6. Re:Given the fact that they don't get a warrant... by PPH · · Score: 1


      Laugh if you want. I worked for a guy who had been assigned the task of siting a new plant for a major aerospace company. When he was out scouting locations, developers were all over people in the office trying to figure out where he was.


      I've also done some work for a local private detective (fixing gadgets mainly). He tells me that one of his best sources for tracking deadbeats is to slip a couple of bucks to a buddy of his in the police depatment and have him access data.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  8. Franklin? by Gothmolly · · Score: 2, Insightful

    s/security/freedom/g

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:Franklin? by holophrastic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I entirely agree. And this is the perfect example too.

      To everyone else, of course, if I were missing, yeah I'd want my telco to help find me. And yes of course my safety is more important than my privacy and more important than the many many many ways in which this can be abused.

      But honestly folks, when was the last time that you went missing? How many times do you risk getting kidnapped? I'm not living out in the middle of nowhere where I accidentally dangle from a cliff. And I'm not in any sort of a dangerous city. And 90% of those dangers don't provide for the time to be rescued.

      So we're talking about a time when I need rescuing, and my government has the time to realize that I'm missing and then to actually find me. Come on. When does that happen?

      I'll tell you when it happens. It happens when a friend or family member is expecting me to be somewhere, and I'm a few hours late and unreachable. That's not police asking the telco, it's pretty much my next of kin.

      Now I have no problem organize a list of people, to whom I grant the power of grey skull to be given my mobile phone's location. Quite frankly, I think that's a great idea in general. But it won't be my government. It'll be my parents, my children, my wife, a few crazy-close friends, my business partners, and perhaps a really good neighbour. Oh, and my doctor and my lawyer. In other words, people who already have a key to my home, a code to my alarm, power of attorney, or some equivalent level of trust that far over-shadow my location as a point of privacy.

    2. Re:Franklin? by ColaMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now I have no problem organize a list of people, to whom I grant the power of grey skull to be given my mobile phone's location. Quite frankly, I think that's a great idea in general. But it won't be my government. It'll be my parents, my children, my wife, a few crazy-close friends, my business partners, and perhaps a really good neighbour. Oh, and my doctor and my lawyer. In other words, people who already have a key to my home, a code to my alarm, power of attorney, or some equivalent level of trust that far over-shadow my location as a point of privacy.

      I know! Lets ask some commonly-trusted community representative to act on behalf of all these people that could be concerned about your whereabouts. Some group that has a reasonable idea of law and procedure for these kind of things, and could be held accountable to some degree if they try and abuse said trust...... then anyone - anyone, not just those on your list - genuinely concerned for your whereabouts, could contact these representatives for help and make their case for further assistance. The telcos - having dealt with said representatives semi-regularly - would already have a relatively trusting arrangement with them, knowing already that they wouldn't generally ask if it wasn't generally necessary, with the overall setup saving time and hassles when someone has a legitimate concern for your safety.

      Note then that this setup doesn't require any action or upkeep from you, in case you forget to keep your list of friends/doctors/lawyers/neighbors/good samaritians in sync with the telcos list.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    3. Re:Franklin? by icebike · · Score: 1

      > I know! Lets ask some commonly-trusted community representative to act on behalf

      Good Idea.

      Lets have the representatives dress all the same so we know who they are, maybe in Blue (nice color), and they can do other things while they wait for us to be missing, like hand out parking tickets and eat excess donuts etc.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    4. Re:Franklin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are one of those people that believe the whole "protect and serve" jazz, aren't you?

      Hint: that's not really their job; they are there to enforce laws and that's about it.

    5. Re:Franklin? by Sigg3.net · · Score: 0

      I live in Norway, and I believe our climate to be similar to the "upper half" of North America.
      If you're going skiing to return at x o'clock, and you're taken by an avalanche or fog or a blizzard hits the area you'll be happy to have the cellphone with you.

      These things happen all the time and often in spite of a person's survival skills. A phonecall, gps, tower triangulation or even the light emitting from your cellphone screen could mean the difference between life or a very cold death. Heck, just before Easter they aired a story from 2006 where a girl was found by a helicopter pilot who saw her cellphone. It worked better than the IR scan that they had.

      Using telephone records in these instances, however, would probably mean you've been pining for the fjords for a long time.
      Just saying, people go missing all the time.

    6. Re:Franklin? by maxume · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If the state isn't acting appropriately 100% of the time, you don't have any chance of being free. Exceptional circumstances do not justify abrogating freedom.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Franklin? by rbane3 · · Score: 1

      First off, very well worded response, holophrastic.

      In regards to - Now I have no problem organize a list of people, to whom I grant the power of grey skull... - Sprint already has a service (http://www.nextel.com/en/services/gps/family_locator.shtml) much like this. As you detail, it allows family members and those you designate to see your location. It could be used, I suppose, to keep "track" of that mischevious teenage girl of yours, or in situations like the ones you describe.

      Disclaimer - I don't work for Sprint. I don't know if other cell phone carriers offer this same service. I simply noticed it when browsing my plan and options on their site.

    8. Re:Franklin? by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      If I'm skiing (or boating or skydiving), as I said before, by the time anyone realizes I'm late, it's too late. Not to mention that the avalanche could get me at the start of my two-hour run. So I wouldn't be "late" for another two hours.

      In any of those cases, the only way I survive by rescue is to have someone watching the mountain for an avalanche, or tracking me every minute.

      Look at something a heck of a lot less complicated. Look at swimming in a swimming pool. You can drown in 60 seconds from nothing more than a mis-taken breath. And the solution is just as simple -- someone watching you constantly. Of course it's a privacy issue -- sometimes I'd like to swim alone. But swimming is one of those things that amounts to "imminent danger" no matter how strong a swimmer you are. Skiing is the same way.

      Every-day life, however, is not. Almost by definition. I don't want my life-guard following me around where ever I go. That's called a body-guard, and that's for people in situations where every-day life is imminent danger.

      Mine is not.

    9. Re:Franklin? by jdmetz · · Score: 1

      If just the police were commonly trusted.

    10. Re:Franklin? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I know! Lets ask some commonly-trusted community representative

      This is a logical fallacy known as the "appeal to authority".

      to act on behalf of all these people that could be concerned about your whereabouts. Some group that has a reasonable idea of law and procedure for these kind of things

      Not sure what this one is called, but this, too, is a logical fallacy. A group that has a reasonable idea of law and procedure will not necessarily do the "right" thing. And, for that matter, the restrictions of law may not be sufficient for my tastes. In fact, they certainly are not.

      and could be held accountable to some degree if they try and abuse said trust......

      Ha, ha, ha. Ha ha.

      Are you really this naive?

      then anyone - anyone, not just those on your list - genuinely concerned for your whereabouts

      Let me help you: Anyone, just not those on your list - for any reason

      could contact these representatives for help and make their case for further assistance. The telcos - having dealt with said representatives semi-regularly - would already have a relatively trusting arrangement with them, knowing already that they wouldn't generally ask if it wasn't generally necessary,

      Oh, you really are this naive. The telcos, having dealt with said representatives semi-regularly already have a relatively trusting arrangement with them, knowing that they ask for information to which they have no right all the time, and they give it to them anyway because they depend on the regulatory blessing of the government in order to exist and continue doing business, which is the same reason that internet backbone providers and telcos are so willing to bend over for the NSA at the least provocation.

      with the overall setup saving time and hassles when someone has a legitimate concern for your safety.

      You mean, when someone wants to spy on you?

      I'm not denying that the system does occasionally save lives. I would however argue that it is actually abused more often than used correctly. The rub is that there's no way to verify it or prove me wrong. The major telco providers have moved or are moving to an entirely digital and packet-switched network for long distance telephone calls and your calls can be tapped undetectably, as can all of your other communications which are not encrypted. Given that we know that the government has admitted to be performing automated monitoring of phone calls and emails, it is only safe to assume that all communications which can be monitored are being monitored.

      Your faith in the system is chilling and hilarious at the same time. The system as it stands is designed to steal your money, not to help you. The police are not there to protect you; this is an impossible job. They are there to act as a system of punishment and generation of revenue.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:Franklin? by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      Like "A Modest Proposal," your sarcastic post misses one very obvious point: A random cop is not commonly-trusted, at least not here.

    12. Re:Franklin? by Sigg3.net · · Score: 0

      ...and in the cases when it's not too late?
      You seem like an intelligent wo/man, and you probably know that no one plans to get lost and that it can happen to the best. I don't see your point about constant surveillance, because no one buys a phone to save their life (or escape death entirely) in the first place.

      But saving your life using any of the methods above or others with whatever means available seems to be the right thing to do. Your privacy is worthless when you're not breathing any longer.

    13. Re:Franklin? by susano_otter · · Score: 1

      s/security/freedom/g

      This is incorrect. The correct proverb would result in

      s/temporary security/essential liberty/g

      Which is a very different proposition altogether, and requires careful consideration of what "essential liberty" and "temporary security" mean. These are debatable subjects, about which people of good will might well disagree, in their joint efforts to craft a more perfect society.

      Personally, I reject the idea we should never exchange any liberty for any security, either individually or as a community, and apparently the author of the quote you've mangled agrees with me.
      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    14. Re:Franklin? by holophrastic · · Score: 0, Troll

      A while back I was programming a database solution that needed to synchronize across typically off-line locations. I was devising some sort of way to ensure that uids didn't collide. Someone suggested that I use uuids instead. My response at the time was something to the effect of: "this is a mission-critical system, uuids can still collide however rarely, I'd prefer a solution that guaranteed no collisions." I was greeted with a response to the effect of "yes uuids can collide. but it's much more likely that your three distinct locations will each get hit my a meteorite on the same day." Imperfect solutions are quite often more than good enough.

      Now, if you want my mobile phone to guarantee my safety and security, you don't do it by tracking my location. You do it by having the device itself track my vital signs. When they reach a critical level, the device asks me if I'm sexually active or watching a scary movie. If I don't appease the device, then it calls the police/fire/ambulance/guardian/parent/nurse/child/neighbour/teacher for me -- a.k.a. a dead-man switch. You don't have the device ever listen to requests from the outside world. Ever. It's that simple.

      When you say things like "your privacy is worthless when you're not breathing any longer", it's really easy to win an argument. But that's true only because it's a statement that presents no alternative scenarios. That's that propeganda works. You state something with an absolute truth, and then you have every following argument linked to the first by syntax, instead of semantics.

      In this case, I have no reason to protect myself against getting lost. First, I don't get lost. Second, I live in a large very friendly city, with countless resources to someone who is lost. Third, I have the health to survive alone in the middle of no where for days without any permanent issues -- I'm not partially paralized, nor do I suffer from seizures nor even paranoia.

      What you're asking me to do, what many opt to do, is to protect myself from something that is incredibly unlikely to occur. A good example that I often use for many things is walking. I've been walking for decades.

      You know, I don't tend to trip and fall any more. I tihnk I've been walking without falling even once for the last ten years. I stumbled the other day, but recovered long before hitting the ground. But you know what, I may fall one day. And I may injure my knee in doing so. And it may never heal correctly. And I may wind up limping through the rest of my life. So clearly I should take steps (ha) to ensure that I am protected from such falls. Maybe I should were knee pads everywhere I go.

      That's the kind of absolute argument that easily works with anything that isn't ridiculous to begin with. I wouldn't have a limp forever because I've got the money for physical therapy. My knee would heal correctly because I live in a city with incredible hospitals and health-care all for free -- err, included with citizenship. If I do fall, odds are that I won't injure my knee to any real degree. And I'm not likely to fall in the first place.

      Is it worth $1.50 plus tax to protect each of my knees from life-long injury? For me, now, here, no. It's not worth $1.50 plus tax to protect my knee at the cost of having to wear even the lightest and thinnest knee pad everywhere I go. Now, if I were a hockey player, who falls about three times in a 45-second shift, then yeah the knee pad becomes crucial.

      For me, there are better ways to allocate resources. And the freedom to allow my knee to breathe, and to walk around with a little bit more comfort, is worth a lot more than protecting the knee from something that isn't likely to happen.

      Back to my old discussion about insurance, there will come a day when an insurance company will simply offer to ensure every second of your life -- car, home, theft, life, property, it's all the same. Every single second of your life would be covered. It's the glorious undo buffer to get money back

    15. Re:Franklin? by Sigg3.net · · Score: 0

      I think you took my post a bit too serious. I was just pointing out that people get lost all the time in general, not that You get lost all the time.

      I share your opinion on insurance though. It's a mind game. Then I was brutally robbed last year and barely escaped with my life. If it weren't for the fact that I live in a social democracy ('communism' to Americans) I would have been down several thousand crowners (at minimum $2000). I didn't have an insurance but our laws made it right (meaning I transferred the justifying settlement from the perpetrators to the state in case they'd never be apprehended - read more).I'm still critical to the 'philosophy' of insurance, because I'm not one for counter-facts. I'm just more careful about where I walk than I used to be.

      Then again, this is really off-topic:P

    16. Re:Franklin? by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      But see, that's the tihng about insurance, people get played. Your collected $2'000.00, but how much did you pay into the system -- in your case in terms of taxes? It's a good bet that you paid in more than you got out.

      That's actually not necessarily true. But in my case, it almost always is true. I live above -- ok, I recently learned way above -- the average income/class/health/tax category. That basically means I pay more taxes than everyone else, and I use feer social benefits. I never used public school, went to private. I don't use public health care -- I'm healthy, and have my own private health care. I don't use public transit, I drive.

      Now, I hate contributing to public transit because it's a huge drain on city funds. But I do see how my city is better off when people can get to work. I hate contributing to public school, but I do see how my city is better off with smarter people. I don't hate contributing to public health care, because I don't like seeing sick people in the streets. Actually, my city recently won the "fattest homeless people in the world". Now that's just funny. I'm proud of that.

      Incidentally, brutally robbed is really bad. It's not the $2'000.00 either. It's that life part that you mentioned. But I'm not sure any ordinary amount of insurance would make me happy about such a scenario.

      And yeah, Amuricans really are silly that way. I've spent some time in a few of their cities. They have a, well, interesting culture -- let's just say their own fear causes them to mistreat tourists. But that's another story.

  9. I dunno, I can see it. by jesdynf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Where is this person, we believe him to be in danger" is not "we wish to covertly monitor this person", nor is it "reveal to us this person's whereabouts for the last six months". The police *should* be able to locate people who are believed to be missing, and I'm not very worried about granting them broad powers to go about it. This is a useful task. Assuming the telco isn't enjoined to secrecy, this seems balanced to me.

    Yes, it's theoretically possible to parlay powers granted that way into other, less useful acts, but... look, I'm no apologist; I think that many things they do are thoughtless, wicked, and treasonous, but they do have their uses, and in this instance? I'd need to see a case of it being abused, and I'd need it proven that existing case law wasn't sufficient to redress the abuse, before I got too excited about it.

    --
    Yahoo! Pipes are awesome. How awesome? http://pipes.yahoo.com/jesdynf/slashdot
    1. Re:I dunno, I can see it. by jd · · Score: 1
      A glance at the high-rated posts suggests the majority would agree (at least to some degree), myself included. I would suggest an additional law which stipulated that any normally-granted immunity for the phone companies, police, etc, did not apply in cases where covert, unauthorized monitoring could be shown to have taken place in the knowledge that that ois what it was and that such immunity could neither be restored nor granted where it had not previously existed in such cases.

      (The idea is that with power must come responsibility, and that such responsibility should be enforceable without making the emergency services paranoid in the process. It's hard to have fully-functional checks and balances, there are probably better ways to do it than the above idea, but I am a firm believer in the principle that no power should be granted without an equal and opposite power being genuinely available when the original power is misused.)

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  10. Give people an opt out option by Cryacin · · Score: 1

    If you're that concerned about it, tick a box to say that you do not wish your location be disclosed if you are ever missing.

    Prevents lawsuits from the " found in a ditch" mob and the "I don't want to be located" group.

    I for one think that this is hardly a stab at liberty, but more a common sense exception when my life may be in danger.

    --
    Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
  11. Low Standard for "Missing" by apok04 · · Score: 2, Informative
    In California (my home state), the standard for a missing person is fairly low:

    In California, a missing person is someone whose whereabouts is unknown to the reporting party. This includes any child who may have run away, been taken involuntary or may be in need of assistance. It includes a child illegally taken, held or hidden by a parent or non-parent family member (See California Penal Code Sections 277-280).

    There is NO waiting period for reporting a person missing. All California police and sheriffs' departments must accept any report, including a report by telephone, of a missing person, including runaways, without delay and will give priority to the handling of the report.

    Seems to me that this opens the door for exploitation by many people, including law enforcement, since the police have to accept any and all reports, without any burden of proof on the part of the reporter (while it is illegal to file a false report, the standard is whether or not the reporter knew that the reportee was missing - sort of like he said/she said). But we have to think of the children!
    --
    It's not a bug, it's a feature
    1. Re:Low Standard for "Missing" by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      With all due respect to your state, most of us in the sane world view many of the laws coming out of California with a healthy degree of amazement/amusement/cynicism/sorrow/pity...

    2. Re:Low Standard for "Missing" by alzoron · · Score: 1

      I used to think their laws were amusing too until they started moving here in waves and changing our laws too.

      Oh, and to stay on topic, if the person is indeed missing it shouldn't be that hard to get a warrant. I'm all for helping to find missing people in danger and all, but this like jaywalking when the crosswalk is 5 feet away. Lazyness, pure and simple. We have a system in place, join civilization and use it.

    3. Re:Low Standard for "Missing" by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      With all due respect to your state, most of us in the sane world view many of the laws coming out of California with a healthy degree of amazement/amusement/cynicism/sorrow/pity...

      where is this sane world of which you speak?

      I agree that California's ideas about gun laws (and other various issues covered in the bill of rights) are pretty sketchy. Los Angeles banning trans fats instead of introducing mandatory labeling is retarded at best; I should be able to blow out my guts if I want to. It's not like we have national health care. But then again, our emissions laws are not only effective but necessary. Too bad the federal government announced their intention to sue us if we didn't retract our upcoming restrictions on automobile emissions.

      Aside from the incredibly misguided gun laws (remember, the democrats and republicans are part of the same system of fucking you) what else do you find so hilarious? Just curious, I didn't make the laws or anything and I think the government governs best which governs least.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  12. Why not an opt-in? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why should I have to ask for my freedom?

    (Yes, freedom comes with personal responsibilty)

    1. Re:Why not an opt-in? by icebike · · Score: 1

      You already Opted In when you bought the damn phone.

      You gave out your number. You wanted to be connected. If you change your mind, and want to sneak around on your wife, leave the phone at home or turn it off.

      What is so hard about that? Turn it OFF.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  13. Going Off The Grid 101 by edeloso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I thought lesson 1 was "Dump the cell phone."

    1. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by jamesh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's exactly right. Police can look out for your car registration number (even easier if you go through a tollway), look through cctv systems for your face, monitor the use of your credit cards, and probably a heap of other things. Maybe they need a warrant for some of them but not for just putting out a call to keep an eye out for your car registration number. It's not like your phone is some sacred thing.

      If you really wanted to go 'missing', maybe try telling someone first, just to let them know that you don't want to be found. Just going missing without telling anyone is a pretty selfish thing to do, and can tie up a heap of resources trying to find you again.

      Are there any states or countries where it is a crime to go missing? I don't think it is in Australia, although if it looked like you were deliberately wasting police/rescue workers time you might be charged with that.

    2. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by snl2587 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are there any states or countries where it is a crime to go missing?

      I certainly hope not anywhere in the "free world".

    3. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 1

      Absolutely it is in Australia - or rather, the wasting police time - witness the Queensland case of the 14yo girl who ran off with her 20 something boyfriend and was hidden by him (with her consent) for years.

    4. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the UK there is a company that has a lot of the traffic warden, parking, road clearing, etc resources tied up. Most of their vehicles carry cameras (mainly to spot tax avoiders) which log number plates against time and location. At some point, they're going to start selling that data.

    5. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by DieByWire · · Score: 1

      I thought lesson 1 was "Dump the cell phone."

      Historically speaking, that's lesson two, since cell phones were invented after credit cards.

      Credit cards give data that's more location specific. I'm not sure which data would be available closest to real time. Anyone?

      --
      Never shake hands with a man you meet in a fertility clinic.
    6. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that recently happened in the US with the "runaway bride" case.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Wilbanks

    7. Re:Going Off The Grid 101 by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      She didn't just go missing though, she lied and claimed that she had been kidnapped and raped.

  14. A big gray area here by mikesd81 · · Score: 1

    Okay, here comes the big gray area. As much as I love my privacy and hate it being violated, let's be real here. There are times when privacy can be JUSTIFIABLY violated. Especially if the case (I know this wasn't here, but still) involves a person who was in a violent relationship. Or (more towards this case) the person has been depressed or expressed desire to hurt him/her self. There has to be a little bit of a compromise where personal information should be able to be acquired.

    --
    That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
  15. As someone on a Search & Rescue team by nick0909 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have gone out on searches for missing people, including ones that have basically called 911 and was able to say basically "I am stuck in the snow and dieing" but they had no idea where they were. This was before most cellphones had a GPS, and our 911 center had no idea where the call came from. Calling the cell company, we had the Sheriff on the phone along with the parents of the missing kids, and the parents paid the bill, and AT&T would not release the location info. Their friend had another phone provider (MCI? I can't remember it was so long ago), and they released the last location ping to us immediately. We also were able to quickly pull the last credit card purchase from them and figured out between their gas and snack runs and their last cellphone tower used they were probably in a certain camping area. Sure enough, a airplane spotted them shortly after we re-focussed our efforts and a few hours after that the helicopters and ground teams on snowmobiles (of which I was one) reached the party of 6 and was able to pull them all back out to their families. While I am huge on privacy and a person's rights, I also was infuriated when the cell company that was used to make the 911 call for help refused to release the location information to us. I am sure they could have seen that 911 was recently dialed, and having the family members on the phone as well pleading with them to release it to us, they refused. There may be a class action suit on the way for releasing private information, but what about if they don't release it and the victims die? Does the family then sue the cell company for having life-saving information and withholding it, essentially preventing or hampering rescue efforts? Is this the same as not yielding to a fire engine responding to an emergency?

    1. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was quite a stupid thing for AT&T to do, particularly when, as you say, the 911 call was on their network. In the case of a missing/injured person privacy should not take precedence. Hot, single women who watch Stargate and/or Star Trek are also welcome to track me down.

    2. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by Redlazer · · Score: 1
      Well played sir. Your are exactly right - while I am a certainly very mucha supporter of privacy, Im pretty sure a missing person would rather be found than not found, and that's really all there is to the argument.

      -Red

      --
      Guns don't kill people, "with glowing hearts" kills people.
    3. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by stox · · Score: 1

      You're obviously talking about the OLD AT&T, where customer privacy was held in the highest regard. As opposed to the NEW AT&T, where they'll spill their guts at the flash of a badge. The old Ma Bell worked for their customers. The new ATT tolerates its customers.

      --
      "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
    4. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A person calling 911 and asking for help is explicitly asking to be found. If AT&T really did that, they should be sued for reckless endangerment. There's simply no excuse for that.

      In cases of a third-party report of the person being missing, that's a little different. That said, it is still better to err on the side of caution and send someone to find the person. Upon finding the missing person, the police should be obligated to reveal who is looking for him/her, and if the missing person says "I don't want to be found by him/her," the police should be obligated by law to report that and only that to the person looking for him/her. There should also be protections in place to prevent a corrupt police officer from falsely claiming that someone reported a person missing in order to stalk that person. That's a reasonable balance between safety and privacy for most sane people.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the family then sue the cell company for having life-saving information and withholding it, essentially preventing or hampering rescue efforts? Is this the same as not yielding to a fire engine responding to an emergency? Not at all. It is essentially impossible to reliably authenticate yourself over the phone. The flip side to this whole mess is pretexting, which, according to Mitnick, is the surest way to hack into a corporation, etc.
    6. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by Redlazer · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

      --
      Guns don't kill people, "with glowing hearts" kills people.
    7. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by houghi · · Score: 1

      This is one of those nice 'think about the children' if I ever heard one. It has all the ingredients. Somebodies kid in danger, a willing policeforce and a company that by following the rules brings the kid in danger.
      We even have the happy ending because of somebody else ignoring the rules.

      That said it is my point of view that the ONLY way a company should be allowed to hand over privacy related information is by a court order. No exceptions EVER, because that will lead to abuse sooner or later.

      So if this what was not possible, then the process of getting a courtorder should be changed to get the information, not making the information in itself more accesible.

      They should be able to get to somebody who can then give out the courtorder almost immidiatly.

      I have been in situations where the police tried to get information by lying about the situation. I am sure the moment they can get information by yelling 'kid in a well' they will do that.

      So I am not saying they should never hand over the information. I am saying the process of handing over the information should go through court and that process must be heavily documented.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    8. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Far less likely scenario that looks the same to AT&T: You're trying to kill someone, they escape and call 911 for help, then you call AT&T to get their location.

      If this guy's cell phone was on and he called 911, why couldn't he be the one authorizing the gps info release?

    9. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      spill their guts at flash of a badge. What the hell are you trying to do to them? Make them piss in their thongs?
      Dude, AT&T does not need a badge to rat your info.
      They just rat you out if a NSA employee inquires friendly about you.
      Heck, you need to flash a badge to make them charge you for ratting you out so that they don't charge the government by mistake.
      The old Ma Bell loved its customers.
      The new AT&T also loves its customers.
      Only that its definition of customer is now the US government.
      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    10. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by danzona · · Score: 1

      Calling the cell company, we had the Sheriff on the phone along with the parents of the missing kids, and the parents paid the bill, and AT&T would not release the location info.

      Maybe someone with more knowledge can explain to me how AT&T knows who is using the phone. If the parents are paying the bill, how does AT&T know that the parents aren't the ones using the phone?

    11. Re:As someone on a Search & Rescue team by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Two hours after he was reported missing, the man was found alive but unwell lying on his desk and taken to University Hospital for a psychological evaluation."

      Did it really require a technological intervention? Sounds like good old police work (or common sense) would have solved this. They really just wasted time trying to get a cell phone record when they could have been actually looking for him.

  16. Simple Solution by PPH · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the telco is required to inform the customer each time their location is provided to law enforcement (or anyone else), that will stop abuse. If I'm stuck in a ditch, a text message to the effect that my location has just been provided to assist in my rescue isn't going to upset me.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Simple Solution by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Might be handy information for kidnappers to know too ;)

      --
      Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
    2. Re:Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you've been kidnapped, whoever is holding you probably gets that message first - not that I've ever been kidnapped but I believe that you're usually not allowed to keep your phone, instead the kidnappers keep it (or perhaps toss it away now that it might be used to reveal your location). I can't really come up with a simple solution - any notification or e.g. a request that "can we hand over information about your location to authorities?" would be bad in a kidnap case whilst the absence of such would violate privacy.

    3. Re:Simple Solution by skiingyac · · Score: 1

      Well if people already know you've been kidnapped, then the notification requirement wouldn't apply.

      If people didn't know you were kidnapped, they've already tried calling your cell phone before contacting the police so the kidnappers already know you have a cell phone on you.

      Or just to be safe the notification could be sent after 48 hours or whatever so the police have had a chance to find you first. I would think that any evidence the police get as part of such a search would already be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree" or whatever so abuse doesn't seem very useful. There's still a problem with a corrupt police officer "coming to get you" I guess, but I don't think I'd carry MY cell phone around with me if I was worried about something like that.

      Either way, if someone thinks I am missing, the cell phone company had better turn over the records right away.

  17. A well-publicized rescue based on cell signals by shankarunni · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For those of you who remember this incident a couple of years ago:

    http://www.news.com/2100-1028_3-6140118.html

    James Kim's family was rescued because of a *single* ping received from a dying cell phone at a remote tower in Oregon.

    1. Re:A well-publicized rescue based on cell signals by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      They were missing for quite a long time. A warrant could have been issued almost instantly, and would not have hampered the search in any way.

    2. Re:A well-publicized rescue based on cell signals by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      A warrant for what? Being missing isn't against the law.....remember, way back when you read the summary: "It is not a crime to go missing."

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    3. Re:A well-publicized rescue based on cell signals by Hyppy · · Score: 1

      No, but a person who is missing, with no explanation, could pose probable cause to believe that a crime has occurred.

      As long as they get a warrant, I'm okay with it.

    4. Re:A well-publicized rescue based on cell signals by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      A warrant for what? As mentioned in TFA:

      Missing persons cases present an unusual problem for police -- it's not a crime to disappear. Without a crime, police can't get a search warrant. In a criminal case, no warrant would mean no phone records for authorities.

      You're probably far more likely to go missing due to an accident (car goes off the road, injure yourself while hiking, etc) than to be kidnapped by mobsters.

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
  18. Which side of the coin? by ubermichael · · Score: 1

    If you choose to go missing, then you obviously should be allowed to do so. Like anything else you do, you have to be responsible. Cancel your phone, your bank accounts, credit cards, and the like. Use cash to pay for everything for as long as you want to be missing. Leave a note, if you don't want people to think you've been "disappeared"

    If you go missing against your will, then the police have every right to search for you. But they cannot know if you choose to go away unless you tell them first.

  19. Community Caretaking by Valdrax · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Police perform searches that would normally be in violation of the 4th Amendment if they were looking for evidence or suspects all the time to check up on people on behalf of worried family members. This is known as a "community caretaking search," and was established as a legal basis for searches in Cady v. Dombrowski.

    It's worth noting that 4th Amendment rights almost entirely enforced via evidence suppression motions in criminal trials. If you aren't on trial for a crime, then generally you have no real legal way of challenging a search.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    1. Re:Community Caretaking by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I believe that you took that example out of context. For example, a family might consent to have their son's or daughter's room searched (even if over 18) in order to find clues to their whereabouts... but this is a very different matter.

      Further, most 4th Amendment cases are probably brought up in criminal cases because that is where the question arises most often! That doesn't mean that challenging an illegal search is pointless or "not done".

      I was personally searched by police, illegally and in public, for a reason that would have still been illegal even it had not turned out to be imaginary. Believe me, when it happens to you, you don't take it so goddamned lightly!

      "community caretaking" bedamned. If they searched MY telephone records without a warrant I would sue their asses off, and I think I would have a pretty good chance of making it stick.

  20. Don't call me. by Beer_Smurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Perhaps there should be a box to check when you sign your contract as to if you prefer privacy or help.

  21. Meet you out at bus 142 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sigh. An Alaskan trip would be nice right about now. Damn life and all its responsibilities.

    1. Re:Meet you out at bus 142 by Ironsides · · Score: 1

      Just make sure you don't wind up the same way as he did.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  22. It's not rocket science by Wapiti-eater · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they use that info to find a lost person - cool. Mama and Papa are happy - nice newspaper articles are printed and everyone feels good and shags their squeeze feeling the hero they are.

    If any info used for a criminal case is obtained 'illegally' (such as without a warrant) it is declared 'tainted' and is unusable. No one gets shagged, no one's a hero, some DA ripps some one a new ass and whatever nasties were discovered are now protected.

    What's the big deal? It's not a perfect system - but parts of it generally do work, now and then.

    --
    Senior NCO in the fight against entropy. I've seen things, man. Things no one should have to see.....
  23. Isn't it a crime? by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm pretty sure it's criminally negligent to fail to disclose your whereabouts to people who are likely to worry and file a missing persons' report.
    Causing cops extra work for no reward is universally punishable by law, by some strange coincidence.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

    1. Re:Isn't it a crime? by RoboRay · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm worried about you, but I don't know where you are. Report your current physical location immediately or prepare to be arrested.

    2. Re:Isn't it a crime? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So I should tell that crazy ex-girlfriend that's one complaint short of a restraining order that I'm going off the grid? Or maybe I just plain don't want to talk to my father anymore, that he's crazy and refuses to see reason.



      There's a thing called "malicious intent" or even just "intent," which has to be proven. I have to have intended to waste government resources. It's not my fault if I just say fuck off to the world and the government goes batshit crazy of their own accord, or because of some worried citizen/family member who didn't get that I just wanted to be left alone.


  24. Mandatory implanting people with tracking units... by Prisoner's+Dilemma · · Score: 4, Interesting

    would also help find the occasional kid.

    Cell phones with GPS (mandated for our benefit) could also be used to help find missing people, like those terrorists. Terrorists that speak out against the government, or a political party, or anyone claiming to be law enforcement.

  25. Judge's signature necessary? FALLACY. by chriscappuccio · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most states have laws which allow state district attorneys to sign a warrant to obtain phone or internet records. A JUDGE'S SIGNATURE IS NOT NECESSARY. There is also a federal version of this law for our attorney friends in federal offices. This whole idea that the information is legally protected is COMPLETE BULLSHIT. NO ISP OR PHONE COMPANY REQUIRES A JUDGE'S SIGNATURE TO OBTAIN RECORDS.

    Any Telco/ISP that receives a DA-signed warrant will either 1. comply or 2. get owners/officers dragged into court, and into jail if they refuse to comply.

    I know this because I brought such a case to the Oregon ACLU, who was very interested. So intersted that within 12 hours of my detailed e-mail, they asked their lawyers to look at it. The lawyers pointed out the Oregon and federal laws to me, and explained that other states had equivalent statutes. Game over.

    The basic case was this: Somebody with a laptop lojack-type tracking software installed had their laptop stolen. The company who managed the tracking software had pinpointed it to an IP address on my network. A Portland, OR police detective then sent an affidavit signed by a Portland DA to get the identity of the user behind this IP address. I refused to give him the information, thinking that there was legal protection for my network user. The detective threatened to drag me into court and so I contacted the ACLU. The ACLU's contact page said I should wait up to 36 days to get a reply. This was around 8 PM. At 8:30 AM the next morning, the office of the director called me back with a keen interest in the case. Cool, eh?

    hen, their lawyers got involved. They informed me of the multitude of laws which make this perfectly legitimate activity. This was not the answer I expected (and apparently not the answer that the Oregon ACLU director's office expected, either, because they completely lost interest.) They also told me that the threats to force us to appear in court over the matter were no joking matter.

    In the end, we never heard from the customer that we outed, or at least they still pay their bill. So, it may have worked out ok for everyone. Anyways, the guys who are out there selling anyone's phone records for the asking are doing the same thing with the carriers - pretending to be district attorneys, not judges.

  26. That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is "missing", and there is "missing". I, too, have been on searches (sometimes with S&R) for missing people. But a 911 call or a child missing is a VASTLY different situation from someone who has simply "vanished" and nobody has seen them for a day or two.

    As I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I have been the victim of illegal search by overzealous law enforcement. And if I find out that somebody has illegally accessed or searched my phone records (or other private records), then they would get sued. Period. I would use the best lawyer I could manage to retain, and I would go for the throat.

    Again, your situation was a 911 call, and you were right to be furious. But the primary matter under discussion here is VERY different.

    And I can answer one of your questions above quite easily: the cell phone company is prohibited by law from disclosing those phone records. You would not get anywhere suing them for complying with the law. But you could most likely sue them for violating it by giving up your records without a warrant.

    And no, in the vast majority of cases it is nothing at all like not yielding to a fire engine that is responding, because they are very seldom "911" situations. And if they are, the police CAN typically get an "emergency" warrant in under an hour. So the illegal search is STILL not justified.

    1. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I have been the victim of illegal search by overzealous law enforcement. And if I find out that somebody has illegally accessed or searched my phone records Okay, we get it. We won't track your cell phone if you ever go missing. And then when you get kidnapped and wonder why there's no one rescuing you since, after all, you still have your cell phone on and with you, you can remember this series of posts.

      And then post some more about how unfair it was that you weren't rescued sooner.

    2. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by Devistater · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. A couple years ago, the FCC ruled that telco's could sell/trade EVERYTHING about you (including who you call, what times, your address, everything they know about you and your usage), to anyone who is in even a remotely related industry. Previously this information called CPNI (customer proprietary network information) was in an opt in setup, where you had to tell them they could do this. Now its an opt-out because of FCC decision, meaning you have to call your telco and request that they do not do this.
      http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/07/18/1245202

      So all the authorities have to do is hookup with some company that sells something remotely related, say cell phone batteries on ebay from china, and bang, they are legit.

    3. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yes, apparently you DO get it. Except for the complaining part, anyway. So what's your point?

    4. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by NiteShaed · · Score: 1

      Okay, now this is getting weird and you've piqued my curiosity.....you'd really rather be kidnapped and held prisoner indefinitely by some unknown person than have the police check your cell-phone record and come rescue you? Really? I'm kinda having a hard time believing that......

      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
    5. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by Frenchy_2001 · · Score: 1

      I can chime in with the opposite experience.
      I've been lost in the woods and gone "missing" for 6 days. cell was in the car and could have been located, but the company refused to release the information. Their decision was great for our privacy, but very dangerous for our well being.

      We fell off the grid by mistake and our family and friends pushed very hard for the rescue effort. Police would not move before 72h (and did not do much even after that), phone provider would not release data. We did not tell anyone where we went.

      *IF* the cell phone provider had given the last ping position it may have helped find us faster (i use may as cell phone reception was spotty and last reception could have been a way off, but still a better location than "no idea where to start").

      So, this is a fine line between privacy and security. As long as only the police access this record only to prevent accidents, I'm all for it (and they look for the person, contact her and then decide if there was danger and how to release the resulting information). But it is a fine line and a possible slippery slope...

    6. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Not at all. I guess you missed the point after all. So I will put it in a nutshell:

      I would rather take the VANISHINGLY SMALL RISK that I would get kidnapped and that a cell phone would otherwise have saved me, than saddle society with the relative CERTAINTY (as clearly indicated by history) that yet another power to search will be abused, and innocent people will suffer.

      Get it now?

      "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." -- U.S. Justice Louis Dembitz Brandeis

      "That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved." -- Benjamin Franklin

    7. Re:That is a DIFFERENT MATTER by NiteShaed · · Score: 1
      yeah, except what you answered that you'd be okay with, without complaint, was this:

      And then when you get kidnapped and wonder why there's no one rescuing you since, after all, you still have your cell phone on and with you, you can remember this series of posts.

      Loosen the tinfoil, it's gonna start to chafe.
      --
      Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
  27. Uh... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    If you are stuck in a ditch and can receive a text message, then there is no need for them to track you down.

    Okay, okay, I guess you meant get a text message later. I can buy that. :0)

  28. Dear Police: by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Funny

    I am disappearing on purpose. Have a nice day. Sincerely, Jane.

  29. But "It's for the children!" by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Come on, folks! It's painless! And if we could implant them ALL as soon as they are born, we might be able to save as many as 10 or 12 lives every year!

    1. Re:But "It's for the children!" by jamesh · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, with skull mounted trackers we'd finally have the correct answer to the question "It's 10pm. Do you know where your children are?". You'd just whip out the offspring locater, press a few buttons, and you'd know instantly where they are.

      Or at least where their skull is.

    2. Re:But "It's for the children!" by Prisoner's+Dilemma · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the same parents that don't manage their spawn now probably wouldn't even do that. There might be one or two parents that currently are too laze to manage the children but could muster enough energy to push the locater button.

  30. WRONG by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Maybe you are right in Oregon, but hardly everywhere. A DA-signed document is not a "judicial warrant". That would be like allowing the head County prosecutor to authorize searches in criminal cases... and that would be ridiculous. Further, there ARE communications companies that refuse to give over records without a judicial warrant (QWEST was a recent high-profile example).

    So maybe Oregon has such state laws, but in my state that would never fly.

    There are a number of federal laws, also, that make it ILLEGAL for at least some communications companies (telephone companies in particular) to turn over records without a warrant. (And by warrant I mean a normal judicial warrant, authorized by a judge with jurisdiction.)

    Perhaps these same "common carrier" laws do not apply to ISPs... but they should.

  31. Don't you think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a person was kidnapped then they would take the phone off the victim? If a person went missing then they don't want to be found? If a person is lost then they deserve to be?

    1. Re:Don't you think by compro01 · · Score: 1

      If a person was kidnapped then they would take the phone off the victim? criminals are generally idiots.
      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
  32. Bivens and Section 1983 by Valdrax · · Score: 1

    Further, most 4th Amendment cases are probably brought up in criminal cases because that is where the question arises most often! That doesn't mean that challenging an illegal search is pointless or "not done". Yeah, yeah, you can file a Bivens or a 42 USC 1983 claim, but those are extremely rare, and you'd have to distinguish Cady.

    Good luck with that.
    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  33. TOS by nguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I suspect that the TOS allow it (or would quickly get a clause to that effect). Then the ball is in your court.

    If you want to disappear without your family being able to find you, just get yourself a new cell phone. It seems kind of stupid to keep running around with the old one anyway.

  34. But maybe not... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Hmmm.... I read your post again and noticed that there is a lot you did not say.

    Was the information requested as part of the discovery process in an ongoing trial? If so, then a subpoena is all that is necessary, not a warrant.

    Did the owner of the equipment give consent to have his property tracked? (Probably, if it was LoJacked.) If so, then the IP that it was sending from might NOT be considered private information at all, and a warrant would not be necessary! After all, it is the owner's equipment. He should be able to waive all the privacy he wants related to his property. An ISP's user account still does not tie an IP to a particular individual, as has been clarified many times in the courts just recently. Even so, if the equipment owner does not want his information private, I do not see how a thief could then claim that privacy rights prevent that information from being given over.

    And so on. There are a number of circumstances that might form exceptions to the usual privacy rules. But that doesn't mean they apply to the general case.

  35. ah damn it.. that is how they found me... by atarione · · Score: 1

    so I tried to disappear.. planned everything out booked travel online paid by credit card at hotels kept my cellphone turned on and with me... SOMEHOW??? they found me...??? must have been the god damned cell?

    --
    actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
  36. I'd have thought it was obvious by hyades1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sign a place on your cell contract that either permits or denies permission to use your records in the event you go missing. Seems easy enough.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  37. Ok, just ask first... by GryMor · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure I care, so long as they ask first. Specifically, call me up and ask me if it's ok for them to check where I am. If I answer, it makes both of our lives simple (well, assuming they follow my directions as to the checking part, who knows, I may not know where I am and be quite happy for them to tell me). If I don't answer, then likely I want to be found as the damned phone is pretty much attached to me. But, if I don't want to be found, the phone will be sitting at home, amusing my cat (or I do want to be found but my kidnapper read this post).

    --
    Realities just a bunch of bits.
  38. Good safeguard. by Eternal+Annoyance · · Score: 1

    The telcos could ask for who (family, work) reported the person in question missing (including contact information), go check the information (maybe a special independent organization needed to do the checking).

    Now, the telcos should only be allowed to turn over that information if the information is correct and confirmed.

    This should raise the bar for abuse by the police.

  39. be mindful of your privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let me give you a completely different perspective.

    When I go somewhere and I don't want people to know where I am (or I don't want to be disturbed), I travel "light" - no mobile/cell phones. There's a catch: this is usually within the city limits.

    When I'm out in the country side or at most other times, I travel with my mobile phone knowing full well that it is a "personal tracking device." It serves as a way for me to make an emergency phone call (if I'm able to) and as a way for people to have some idea of where I might be if I'm missing for longer than I should.

    The point is, I don't know when I might go missing or where that will happen or where I'll be when I run into trouble. If I could plan it, I'd make sure it was outside a hospital or clinic - but I can't.

    The police (in general) have better things to do than try and track where each of the millions of mobile phone subscribers are every second of the day, so I'm all for them using phone tower information to try and find someone if someone is reported as "missing." Maybe I'm putting too much faith in police, but I'm expecting that they will do the "are you family/empoler/relative" kind of filtering before they undertake trying to find me.

    I suppose the real question about this is if there is a warrant out for your arrest, you've skipped bail or failed to show up at a police station on a "checkin day" as part of your bail, do they have the right to use this kind of information to check up on you?

    And I think the answer to that is this goes back to being a criminal problem and that evidence needs to be gained by the police through lawful measures (ie warrants) to be accepted by the courts. Using mobile phone information to locate someone who is missing is qualatively different.

    The interesting question would be if you've been kidnapped, mobile phone data leads the police to you and the kidnappers, can the kidnappers be arrested if the police didn't get a warrant for using the mobile phone tower data first?

  40. Bit of a false dichotomy by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, I have friends, we share our lives with each other, and would much prefer we look out for each other than live our lives in fear and have to hide from each other. Maybe we're just unique like that.


    Well, that's a bit of a false dichotomy there. There are about 6 billion shades of grey between 100% social, sharing every single moment with everyone, and 100% paranoid, affraid of everything that moves.

    And even for a given person there are nuances in how much you trust them. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, either you broadcast every waking moment and detail of your life to them, or you fear them and hide from them.

    E.g., I trust mom, but I wouldn't tell her my passwords. I don't "hide" from her, I don't "fear" her, and I certainly don't have any "delusions of grandeur", but it's just something that she doesn't need to know and accidentally end up telling everyone she knows. (For all her good intentions, she _is_ a terminal chatterbox and sometimes her mouth gets a whole lap ahead of her judgment.)

    E.g., I trust grandma, but I wouldn't necessarily tell her each time I took a taxi to the railway station. She's seen a great depression as a child, and then a war, and still has certain... immutable ideas about money management, which would make the stereotypical Scotsman look positively spendthrift. So I'm just avoiding an unnecessary talk about how not only it's an abomination to blow a few euros on the taxi.

    And from there it's even more shades of grey when it comes to who is entitled to know what. If you get far enough from there, some people don't need to know anything about me. A few people _are_ to be avoided.

    And the implication is starting to somewhat bother me that, basically, if you want any privacy at all, then you're one of those guys that "live our lives in fear and have to hide from each other." It's just called being realistic enough, not being a paranoid hermit.

    So let's lay that fallacy to rest already. So you have friends and talk to them. Even on the phone. Big deal. We all do. So you look out for each other. Big deal. Again, we all do. It still doesn't automatically overrule all and every privacy concerns. You don't need to be paranoid and afraid to not broadcast every moment of your life, you just need to be realistic enough.
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by maxume · · Score: 2, Funny

      There's no place for reason and nuance on this internet.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And even for a given person there are nuances in how much you trust them. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, either you broadcast every waking moment and detail of your life to them, or you fear them and hide from them.

      But you actually seem to be argueing the extremes as well. Everyone else has a phone because they want to broadcast every moment of their lives. I have a phone to be social, but I use it to arrange meetings with friends, let them know I'm running behind, If I get stuck in traffic, I can call and let them know. If I get lost, I can call and get directions. Its revolutionized my job hunt, because I no longer need to camp by the home phone. I have no compulsion to answer it, if its not appropriate or I don't want to be disturbed, I press the little button that mutes the ring.

      Given a choice between being able to be located quickly in an emergency and being able to hide more effectively, I take the former. If I don't want to be disturbed I'll tell whoever comes looking for me I don't want to be disturbed. The real potential issue here is "False reports"; my SO decides I'm cheating on her and falsely reports me missing, getting the police to track me down; or police agent uses this info to track "political enemies" to gather info to be used aganst him, or ID additional "conspirators" (Think Nixon).

    3. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      6 billion shades of grey, that's 32 bits just for one color. What are you using, 1024 bit color?

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    4. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, really he's dithering, but of course doesn't really advertise that.

    5. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by Meski · · Score: 1

      No, really he's dithering, but of course doesn't really advertise that. Waste of a funny line, AC
    6. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Temporal Dithering with a 2 bit panel...

    7. Re:Bit of a false dichotomy by x2A · · Score: 1

      What part of the word "prefer" to you implies an assumed dichotomy? Surely, prefer is a conscious tendancy to lean towards one of the two oposites, which to me implies lack of a dichotomy not the presence of one, as with a dichotomy, there's no 'leaning towards', because you're either that or you're not.

      "I trust mom, but I wouldn't tell her my passwords. I don't "hide" from her"

      The "activeness" is the point though, surely. You might not announce to her your passwords, but you don't have to look over your shoulder every time you log in somewhere to make sure she's not trying to sneak a peak at your passwords right? I know I have no interest in finding out my mom's passwords, and she has no interest in finding out mine. She could even see my typing them in, but she'd have no interest in committing to memory each keypress in which order, so it's not something I have to worry about.

      "I trust grandma, but I wouldn't necessarily tell her each time I took a taxi to the railway station"

      But you don't have to look over your shoulder each time you jump in a cab to make sure she's not watching? Assuming she's able to get out still (okay this might not be the case, but for the sake of demonstrating a point...) it wouldn't be a problem if she did coincidentally see you taking a taxi one time? Unless she was following you around everywhere so saw you taking lots of taxis, but if that was the case, you'd in fact have other problems, and as we have laws against stalking already, I don't think we need new rules or anything to cover that scenario.

      So as you I hope can see the point I'm making... privacy can exist in a mutual exclusion sense, rather than it being "something I must protect or even fight for with laws/regulations/cryptography". Things I do prefer to do in private (take obvious more extreme example, going to the toilet) I don't have to worry that people might be around, because I know they have no interest in watching that, and vacate of their own occord. In the same way, I don't need laws protecting my phone records from people I know, because I know they have no interest in looking at them, and people who don't know me... well they don't know me, they're not exactly going to be going through my phone records! Maybe collecting stats, but a computer is more likely to be used for that, and there's no personal link, they're not gonna be sniggering at the fact I called one person lots for a month then stopped, so I don't see how that would be a privacy issue.

      Privacy works best through mutual voluntary exclusion, enforced exclusion I don't see as being too much of a requirement.

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
  41. Lawsuit?! by nmg196 · · Score: 1

    > it seems like a class-action lawsuit waiting to happen

    Yeah.. all the people who's children are lost are really going to try and sue to the phone companies for giving out the last known location of their children without a judge's warrant. Very likely.

  42. If you want to go missing... by Tastecicles · · Score: 1

    ...drop off the grid and STAY OFF THE GRID. Don't use your SSN. Don't open or use a bank account. Don't take out medical insurance. Don't use a contract phone. Don't have a landline. Don't use email. Don't do anything other than hard cash. OK, this makes life insteresting, but to truly disappear into the crowd, you need to be just another anonymous face.

    --
    Operation Guillotine is in effect.
  43. Won't somebody think of the children ? by daveime · · Score: 1

    Sorry for trotting out that old cliche, it has very little to do with my opinion, but we must supply a subject so there you go.

    In my opinion, where a minor is involved, i.e. still the legal responsibility of a parent / guardian, the privacy rights of the minor are decided by that parent / guardian.

    However if the missing person is not a minor, then they have every right to their privacy too.

    Just as in a hospital, a consent form must be signed before an operation by either the person in question or parent / guardian in the case of minors, then this should ALSO apply before a cell company hands over the private records of an individual.

    It's a double edged sword, balancing the privacy of the individual against the possible benefits to police / other authorities in tracking them down in emergency cases.

    But given authorities appauling record when it comes to the rights of an individual, who defines WHAT is constituted as an "emergency"

    They are missing ?
    They are suspected of a crime ?
    They didn't pay their taxes ?
    They have a goatee and kneel down to pray on a mat ?

    If only the bloody authorities could be trusted to behave in the manner we elected them to behave in, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion. Common sense says that it might be useful to find someone by their cell records ... but then authority comes along and abuses that priviledge for whatever purpose THEY deem to be valid, and screw up the whole thing.

  44. Simple workaround? by moosesocks · · Score: 1

    Why can't we simply set up a special system by which a judge is able to issue some sort of special warrant on extremely short notice for cases that are extremely time-sensitive (eg. missing persons)?

    At the very least, this would leave a paperwork trail, protect the rights of the person being searched, and hold the investigators accountable for their actions.

    --
    -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  45. You forgot the word "ALLEGEDLY" by mikelieman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    belonged to AN ALLEGEDLY suicidal young man

    --
    Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
  46. Ask Uncle Sam... by _14k4 · · Score: 1

    It is not a crime to go missing. - yeah, ass, I'm pretty sure it _is_ a crime.

    Also, it's damn expensive; both for your family, and for the rescue services trying to find you.

    I've only been a firefighter for a couple of years, and have only had at max two missing persons cases - none of which involved any sort of cell phone or record search... (did involve an autistic child, however) - but I can tell you that as a rescue worker, if I was trying to find someone and the cell phone company didn't release records in time, I am sure someone would sue for the PTSD that would come from finding a child's corpse in the woods that probably would have lived if the phone company got its head out of its ass.

    1. Re:Ask Uncle Sam... by russotto · · Score: 1

      but I can tell you that as a rescue worker, if I was trying to find someone and the cell phone company didn't release records in time, I am sure someone would sue for the PTSD that would come from finding a child's corpse in the woods that probably would have lived if the phone company got its head out of its ass.


      If you're a rescue worker, finding dead bodies is part and parcel of the job. If it was going to give you PTSD you should have gone into a different career.

      And a phone company not releasing private information about one of its customers without a damned good reason (like a warrant; the unsworn testimony of J. Random Cop doesn't really cut it) is not "having its head up its ass". It's protecting its customer's privacy.
    2. Re:Ask Uncle Sam... by _14k4 · · Score: 1

      ...I think you missed the point (about ptsd..)

      The *cough* parents */cough* will get plenty of ptsd when they know we've found the dead child.

      Me? I've seen plenty a beat up person - it sticks with you for a bit, and children always make you upset - it's part of being human, and part of why we train more, seriously, and (hopefully) better.

  47. THe vector of action ... by kamathln · · Score: 1

    ... consists of technology as the scalar and human mind as the vector.

  48. Missing Persons != Dogs searching forests by igb · · Score: 1

    You're missing the point. If an adult decides to drop contact with their family and friends, move to another town and start work as a waiter, they have committed precisely no crimes. Firefighters don't comb woods for that: it's a regular event. If there are dependent children then, depending on the law in the country you live in, it's possible you might be financially or criminally liable (oddly, the first parent to leave financially, the second criminally) and if you're married then, depending on your local divorce laws, you might be liable. But if a single man or woman over 18/21/whatever who doesn't have (or continues to pay) debts decides to break contact with their parents and friends, then that's nobody else's business. As an extension, cases in which couples and their children break contact with one or both sets of parents (ie the children's grandparents) are not uncommon, especially in mixed culture marriages.

  49. If suicide is a crime, what's the punishment? by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 2, Insightful

    OK, I know this is off topic, but if suicide is illegal in the state of Washington, can someone please tell me what the "punishment" for attempted suicide is (since successful suicide would appear to be too late)?

    I'm genuinely curious; this is not meant to be a troll. Hopefully some meaningful intervention is mandated to help the victim.

    --
    uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
    1. Re:If suicide is a crime, what's the punishment? by slackerboy · · Score: 1

      OK, I know this is off topic, but if suicide is illegal in the state of Washington, can someone please tell me what the "punishment" for attempted suicide is (since successful suicide would appear to be too late)? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "Life".
      --
      Things to do today: See list of things to do yesterday
    2. Re:If suicide is a crime, what's the punishment? by KarmaOverDogma · · Score: 1

      Laws typically have punishments as means of enforcement. I highly doubt "Life" was the sole "punishment" that Washington state lawmakers had in mind when their legislation was crafted, unless they meant to be tongue-in-cheek, which I highly doubt.

      How does one "punish" one who wants to die or has tried? Clearly one implication meant by your answer is: to not let them. But your juvenile response does nothing to answer the question of "how?" Instead, it could lend to or imply the following type of exchange (please excuse my Reductio Ad Absurdum):

      Washington State: Don't kill yourself!
      Dejected Person: Why not? (my) Life is hopless!
      Washington State: It's Illegal!
      Dejected Person: So! That's the least of my worries!
      Washington State: If you try to kill yourself, we'll arrest you!
      Dejected Person: (thinks a moment and applies his/her morbid logic to the problem)
      ***BANG!!***
      State of Washington: Arrest that corpse!

      --
      uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
  50. If Wanted To Go Missing by aquatone282 · · Score: 1

    The FIRST thing I'd get rid of is my cell phone, followed by my credit and debit cards. Then I'd buy (with cash) a bus ticket to Winnemucca, Nevada.

    It's real easy to disappear when you're in the middle of nowhere.

    --
    What?
  51. I don't think so. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    Even if the telephone companies can sell the information, that does not mean that "the authorities" have automatic access... as strange as that may seem.

    Though they might be able to buy it. And that is fucked up enough.

  52. Good morning flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another worthless flamebait article on Slashdot this morning imagine that. Slashdot needs to add the Microsoft to their company name somewhere or pay them royalties or something. The have a MS bash every 5 minutes now. The first 1,000,000 that I read were entertaining. The last 500,000,000 are starting to get a little old.

    1. Re:Good morning flamebait by MLease · · Score: 1

      In what way is this article bashing MS? Or did you mean to post this elsewhere?

      -Mike

      --
      I'm sorry; I don't know what I was thinking!
  53. Turn it off. by kcdoodle · · Score: 1

    Most people cannot turn their cell phones off.

    In the movies, in the classroom, while paying at the cash register.

    I read somewhere that youth craves constant companionship and hates being alone. Well, call me old. I value my solitude. I do not need to be talking to someone every minute of my drive to/from work. Mostly, when my cell phone rings, it is someone asking me to do something for them. So I have no problem turning the thing off for days at a time. Saves on the bill too.

    If you do not want to be tracked, take the battery out of your cell phone, drive a car made before 1990 (or about then), obey all traffic laws, use only cash, be polite, but not memorable. (They said something like the last part to Matt Damon in Ocean 11.)

    --

    - I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted
    1. Re:Turn it off. by russotto · · Score: 1

      If you do not want to be tracked, take the battery out of your cell phone, drive a car made before 1990 (or about then), obey all traffic laws, use only cash, be polite, but not memorable. (They said something like the last part to Matt Damon in Ocean 11.)


      No need for the pre-1990 car; the proposed OBD-III (with remote monitoring) still hasn't been implemented, so the only way you are going to be tracked from your car is the license plate. Obeying all traffic laws will get you interest from law enforcement, so that's not such a great idea either.
    2. Re:Turn it off. by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      Unless of course you have OnStar, Lojack, a bridge toll Fastpass, or um..probably some other things I've forgotten about. I love my country, but damn if I trust the idiot squad we have in charge now.

      No need for the pre-1990 car; the proposed OBD-III (with remote monitoring) still hasn't been implemented, so the only way you are going to be tracked from your car is the license plate. Obeying all traffic laws will get you interest from law enforcement, so that's not such a great idea either.
    3. Re:Turn it off. by Piazzola · · Score: 1

      I read somewhere that youth craves constant companionship and hates being alone.

      Ah, yes, let's fall back on the stereotypes of the younger generation. My cell phone goes days with a dead battery on a regular basis, because I don't use it that much in the course of my day-to-day life, but oh, I'm only 21, I guess I'm a youth who can't stand to be alone with my thoughts for more than five minutes!

      I'm sick of hearing people throw around the stereotypes about the "youth of today" like we're some kind of gigantic homogeneous morass. It's a variation on the same us vs. them mentality that's gotten the US into the ridiculous foreign policy situation it's in right now -- 'If you're not one of us, then you're all just a bunch of crazy-eyed nuts out to destroy our way of life!'

  54. Police had reason to believe it was an emergency by CA_Jim · · Score: 1

    I read a lot of the comments and nobody has mentioned that the police did have reason to believe it was an emergency. If you read the article, the fellow was distraught, hinting at suicide and didn't show up at a meeting with his mother as planned. Of course the police acted. A lot of people here are arguing from very abstract positions when the reality of the situation is a whole lot less intrusive.

  55. Simple solution: Ask ahead of time by davidwr · · Score: 1

    The simple solution is to send all phone customers a form:
    "In the event of incapacity or that I am declared missing by the police, the following people have permission to request release of private phone data: ...."

    Then do a publicity effort to encourage people to send in the form.

    Also, have a blanket policy that parents of minor children have this permission unless applicable law says otherwise.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  56. Re:Police had reason to believe it was an emergenc by danzona · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Your post indicates that you think that a person does not have the right to take their own life (i.e, it is an emergency and they need to be saved them from themselves).

    I don't think this forum is appropriate to debate whether or not a person does have such a right, but it would probably help to understand the other posts if you realize that many people consider suicide to be an inalienable right.

  57. Re:Police had reason to believe it was an emergenc by Etcetera · · Score: 1

    It's not a right in Oregon. In fact, it's specifically against the law there (and in many other States).

  58. long-term storage of phone location records? by tech-law-ny · · Score: 1

    The critical question is not why the cell phone records are released, but what records exist and why they exist. News reports often state that, at the very beginning of an investigation, law enforcement had information such as "the last time this person's phone pinged a tower was in Bridgehampton three days ago at noon." Wireless carriers can't predict who might be investigated, so this may imply long-term storage of every person's location. Questions include: A. Can I compel my carrier to tell me what information it currently retains about my own previous locations? B. How about other people's locations, with a civil subpoena? C. Is my carrier using my historical location data for its own internal purposes (marketing, etc.)?

    1. Re:long-term storage of phone location records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess our (non USA) system is probably fairly typical. We can trace what calls you have made or received, and where you were when you made them. (only to the cell, we don't get anything more detailed. Some systems can provide more accurate locations. ) This is kept on line for a month. I am not sure if it is archived. However, access to the systems is limited to staff with "need to know". For instance if you ring in complaining about a coverage problem then the initial call taker won't be able to trace but it will be escalated to someone who can. So in that case the information is used to find out which cell site is faulty.

      We have a policy that this sort of information is not given out without a warrant or court order. That includes situation A, eg we will not give out your own information to you. In situation B, well, it will have to be a warrant or court order.

      For C, Well, to the best of my knowledge individual information about location is not used. I think most companies would be wary of the likely backlash, although there has been talk around the industry of things like targeted ads as you pass various locations. That would make me turn my phone off, and I suspect many others so I don't think it is a good idea. Obviously overall cell usage statistics are used to plan network expansion and the like. I could beleive that individual usage information would be used to make special offers to certain customers, eg offer a special deal to high value customers, but I don't work in that area. I don't think it is a problem to say "We see you are a heavy text user. Did you know about our special text plan...". Saying " We see you hang out around the yacht harbour a lot. We have a special deal on boats" would be a whole different can of worms.

  59. Recipe for Abuse by Tiger4 · · Score: 1

    The cops shouldn't need a warrant (signed out by a judge), but they should definitely be signing an affadavit, the first part of the process. The cop is absolutely swearing that to the best of his knowledge the person being sought is likely in danger and the search is official business. There are too many real life incidents where people abuse searches for personal gain (hello UCLA medical). And cops are known to be just as jealous of their spouses as anyone else. A fake request could just be someone checking on a wayward soon-to-be-ex that didn't come home last night. Not exactly missing, just spending the night at a "friend's".

    --
    Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
  60. Re:Police had reason to believe it was an emergenc by danzona · · Score: 1

    I can't believe I am typing this, but according to your logic if the law says that slavery is legal then it means that people don't have a basic human right to not be slaves.

  61. There is a better way.... by rnbc · · Score: 1

    In my country at least (Portugal) the police will track anyone missing, but they can't legally tell anybody else where that person is unless the person allows them. Unless it's a minor, of course...

    The most they will tell the family by default is "we found it, and it's alive and well".

    --
    You cannot proceed from the informal to formal by formal means
  62. You will be sued by family if person harmed by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 1

    The ethical dilemma is that, if a person goes missing they may or may not be in danger so if you violate their privacy by tracking them down with their cellphone you're only justified if they were in danger. If they just decided they wanted to leave their town without telling anyone, you've committed a huge breach of their personal privacy for nothing. I usually find it best to err on the side of privacy rather than safety.

    First, your logic fails in that the desire for rescue is nearly always greater than the desire for privacy, especially given the fact that a cell phone may be turned off or the battery removed if true isolation and privacy is desired by the individual.

    Second, your conclusion that it is best to err on privacy is ludicrous. If harm should befall an individual you will be sued by the family, a jury will be highly sympathetic and likely to award a large judgement against you. In contrast, a person who sues because their privacy was intruded upon will most likely fail to persuade a jury when you state that family and law enforcement told you that the customer was in immediate peril. Your decision to provide information would be most likely considered reasonable. More importantly, you probably anticipated something like this put a clause into the subscriber contract that you would assist in rescues, etc.

  63. Re:Police had reason to believe it was an emergenc by CA_Jim · · Score: 1

    I pulled the description directly from the news article so you are really reaching trying to read my opinion on suicide. But you can read in what the authorities knew at the time they started searching for him which many people would consider serious if not emergency. It appears that the police are following a reasonable procedure when dealing with missing people. Could it be more formally and perhaps uniformly codified. Certainly. Could there be an abuse. Certainly. Could a third party nefariously trace someone? Obviously yes, by providing misleading and false information to authorities. All I'm saying is in this situation, the authorities don't seem out of line.

  64. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    If the "missing person" is carrying their cell phone, couldn't you just call them and ask them "Hey... where the hell are you?"



    To me, he fact that their phone is on but they are not answering sounds like there is a good probability that they are in trouble and therefore are not able to answer. If they really didn't want to talk to anyone, why not just turn the phone off?

  65. It is NOT a crime to disappear by Steve+Hamlin · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure it's criminally negligent to fail to disclose your whereabouts to people who are likely to worry and file a missing persons' report.

    Source, please? I've never heard of such a thing in the U.S.

    From the article: "Missing persons cases present an unusual problem for police -- it's not a crime to disappear."

    It may be thoughtless and even cruel, but it's not criminal, and probably not even civilly actionable.