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French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP
Racketiciel writes "A French user asked for a refund after buying an ASUS computer
that came with Windows XP and other software pre-installed. ASUS tried to
apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer than they
will give back... The court ruled in favor of the user,
who received back 130 Euro (~200 $) for the software.
Here is the ruling (PDF, French). In France, this is the fourth victory for refund seekers during the last two years,
and many people are now filing for refunds (in French). Two French associations (AFUL
and April) published
a press release on this victory the same day an important hearing happened." The English-language press release linked above gives a pretty good idea of what happened here, for those unsuited to wading through French.
Tying a product with something else violates article L122-1 of the French law. The argument is that some giant corporation might convince or coerce somebody to bundle one of its products, creating a de facto monopoly. This is the same reason no telecom operator can force you to buy a subscription with your iPhone.
If you don't like the law, stay out of France. The majority of the population here like it very much as it keeps the competition alive and healthy.
Res publica non dominetur
Does your car dealer sell you a car, you drive it away, then when you go to use the power windows it pops up an EULA with onerous terms that you don't agree to?
Here in France it's forbidden by law to sell a product only if you also buy another: the customer must be able to buy it alone. You car analogy is bad because the "whole" car is considered as a single product, while the computer is a product without it's operating system. And even if you don't agree with this concept or anything, that's not the point here: since it's forbidden by law, any customer who asks a refund (without previously using the packed Windows of course) will win in court. That doesn't mean they have to sell computers without operating systems at all, they only need to give a *real* way to get a refund. Not asus' crappy "yeah we keep your computer for a month and you pay the shipping too, then we give you back 30euros".
Thats complete and utter BS.
If I wanted an ASUS Computer, I should be able to buy JUST THAT. Most manufacturers still dont have a "No OS" option for their configured systems, and I'm damn sure that there isn't a single computer sold in a retail store that has "No OS" as an optional package(at least in the US).
Look, if the guy doesn't want to pay the Microsoft Tax, then he shouldn't have to. Last time I checked, they were 2 completely seperate companies, ASUS and Microsoft. Imagine that if every manufacturer pre-installed a $1000 copy of Adobe CS3 and you couldn't opt out of it, wouldn't you be a little pissed off? Wouldn't you feel that you'd have the right to get your money back for something you didn't want in the first place? This isn't the slightest bit different. Not to mention the whole EULA problem. If you can't see the EULA before you purchase something, you can't just say "Oh, well, I won't buy this then". If he didn't agree with the EULA upon starting his computer (which it may not have even appeared, if ASUS preinstalled XP, which would create a whole new problem in itself) then he has every right to tell ASUS to kiss his ass and give him his money back.
All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
ASUS in France offers to buy back the Windows license, but the user must ship the computer two ways at his own expense, and he gets only 25 Euros back for the Windows license, and ASUS can keep the computer as long as they want to do that. French law forbids tie-ins, such as forcing someone to buy a computer with an OS already installed. The court felt that the 25 Euros combined with the cost of shipping the computer both ways and the fact that the procedure had undetermined duration was effectively discouraging the user from using that capability. Therefore ASUS lost.
Your analogy is not sound, you _can_ buy a car without power windows or AC, it's extremely difficult to buy a computer without a Microsoft operating system.
The computer was sold with XP pre-installed & a "shrink-wrapped" EULA. She wanted a computer but not XP, but was unable to buy a computer without XP pre-installed. This is generally called "The Microsoft Tax", because people who buy computers in order to run other Operating Systems (yes there are others) are forced to pay this tax.
She didn't want to pay this "tax" so asked to be refunded the cost of XP.
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
Those people don't care about the choice and wouldn't know how to make it if one were present. The exceptions to that statement buy Macs.
The best part is that the abbreviation is SEX. It's not even a joke.
Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
Unlike USA - where the DOJ's anti-trust ruling has no real impact on MS's business - the Eurpoeans take this more seriously. They feel that there should be options other than the monopolistic one.
Forcing vendors to give back more than the XP cost sends a clear message: give non-MS options or feel the pain.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
The *real* second wrong here is that the person had to go to court to get what they should have been able to buy in the first place.
It doesn't force them to consider Linux at all, there's no law on the books that says "if Windows is a pain in the ass, you must offer Linux."
What it will do is encourage the companies to not force bundled software. Either they'll make a point of selling bare-bones PC's, or they'll start honoring refund requests. If their licensing with Microsoft prevents that, then maybe they'll consider another operating system (which Microsoft would never allow to happen, Microsoft will just lower the price of licensing to make sure sales continue).
Nothing says it'd have to be Linux, it could be joe schmoes Perl-based OS if that's what Asus thought was a good deal for customers.
Tied selling, whether applied to banks forcing you to buy insurance to get a loan, even when you are already insured, or to buying a PC with MS Windows pre-installed, is illegal in many jurisdictions. The MS EULA also says something to the effect that you can refuse to use it and get a refund. These lawsuits simply hold the sellers responsible for all their promises.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
In fact... if I'm not mistaken, France was the first country in which an unlocked iPhone was required to be offered as an alternative to the usual operator lock-in.
I am French (and I glanced the ruling). However, the 130Euros cost for the software is somehow realistic (100Euros for Windows, 30Euros for extras). It is even a bit more than that. A "laptop sold with "Windows Vista Edition Familiale Premium" on http://materiel.net/ (some home version of Vista, without any extra software) has a price tag of 1000Euros and exactly the same laptop without any OS is sold 870Euros. So the customer price tag for this Windows is 130Euros. (it is quite difficult to buy a laptop without OS, but there are some few offers). So the 100 euros estimate by the French judge is probably a bit too small but not far from the reality. And the judgment is based upon consumer laws. The price tag should be what the consumer has to pay, not what the seller paid.
No, the point is that a French customer should be able to buy a hardware without any software. There should be no obligation to buy any software when a French consumer is buying hardware. It is not about buying a PC with Linux, it is about the right to be able to buy a PC without software!
Yeah being part of Canada would be AWFUL. You'd have a decent minimum wage and free health care. What a nightmare that'd be.
1. It's the law. If you don't like French law, stay out of the fucking country, it's not like Asus was forced to come here anyway.
... A FUCKING REFUCKINGFUND. The judge said that a refund should be a full, no question asked, no bothersome bullshit ship your computer at your own cost pseudo refund.
2. It's the fucking law.
3. The EULA says that if you don't agree, you are entitled to
4. IT'S THE FUCKING LAW.
If the memory of the people in the US went a little more back into history they'd also notice that France actually totally kicked the Western World's ass lead by a tiny Corsican. It's not like the can't fight, you know.
And Germany (then Prussia) saved the world from France once. At the battle of Waterloo.
Not only did Blücher's troops play a huge part in it, Wellington's troops also had a big share of German troops.
So I guess if you dig around long enough then most of the major nations have once saved other nation's asses and at other times kicked other nation's asses. So what.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Yeah, but I doubt that was the parent post's point, rather a computer without any operating system.
But since you brought up Apple, what if someone for whatever reason wanted to by an Apple computer, but didn't want OSX? Apple doesn't give you the option to buy a Mac pro w/o an OS. Of course that's a moot point, since most people would buy a Mac because of the OS rather than them simply getting a PC and taking whatever OS they're given.
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
Actually Norway never surrendered. They moved their administration to London.
Indeed. Perhaps there should be a meme according to which the Jews are ridiculed for surrendering and letting themselves be herded off to camps, instead of nobly fighting to the death on their doorsteps as they ought to have? No, I didn't think so.
More to the point, all this WWI and WWII talk is just a retrospective justification. The real reason we hear Americans (and only Americans) making these bigoted comments is because Jacques Chirac used the UN veto against an attack on Iraq, thus making the subsequent invasion a war crime under the Nuremberg Principles. The fact that Chirac has now been proven quite right, with WMDs and suchlike now known to be a pack of lies, does not seem to embarrass the bigots at all.The "French surrender a lot" meme is different - whatever its origin, and the Onion article that helped propagate it in the ~2000 timeframe, the US right wing started pushing it heavily during the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq, because the French weren't jumping onto Bush's bandwagon, and it was a convenient way to get the rubes to attack anyone who wasn't cooperating, further drawing them in to the neo-con's frame of reference.
But it was especially important for Bush, because the obvious name to call the Iraqis who fought back against the US-led invasion would have been The "Iraqi Resistance", in parallel to the French Resistance of WWII, who everybody remembers at least vaguely as having been brave fighters against an overwhelming attacker, which was really really not the meme that Rove et al wanted to have around.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Because in order to use the software installed, you had to agree to a separate license agreement with a third party who was not involved in the legal and financial transaction of buying the computer. Furthermore, that license agreement was not conveyed to you before you purchased the computer. If your car was a Honda civic, and it was advertised as coming with AC, but when you got it, it had a sticker over the AC button that said "By pressing this button you agree to be bound into the following legal agreement with Acme AC conditioners Ltd, France. You agree that any and all disputes will be governed by the laws of France. If you do not agree with this agreement, return this AC unit for a refund." etc etc. What would your response be? I suspect you would feel that you should be able to take it back and say "I'll take the refund". Furthermore, I suspect that if they said "We will have to charge you the cost to tow the car to and from the garage, they will keep it as long as they want, and you'll get 1/10 the price of buying the AC unit alone back" you would be a little upset.
I think you'll find that it's part of the American culture to assume that they got where they are on their own, under their own steam by the sweat of their own brow, and that the rest of the world is a bunch of useless incompetent fools who blunder along blindly. Kind of the same attitude that teenagers have about their parents and grandparents. Not having the slightest clue what it was like for them and that they haven't actually gone through *anything* without someone holding their hand yet.
The truth of history is completely at odds with this, Americas success came from being geographically isolated from it all and more than a bit of international help when needed. This and the same double crossing ruthlessness that they accuse the rest of the world of has led to the USA of now, not some magical concoction of pixie dust available only to Americans. Just population and a smooth run for over 100 years. My country's the same, but we just call ourselves lucky.
It's nicer to believe myths than the truth, especially a truth that painfully goes against everything you 'know'.
Even the truth of what the French endured last century is quite painful to understand to a reasonable person. How many tens of millions dead and wounded, how viciously they fought in WW1, under conditions that make Iraq and Vietnam look like a stay at the Hilton in comparison. Where chemical weapons were used by both sides like regular munitions, fields were metres thick with the dead tens of thousands of men, who died to gain inches of land. Then 20 years later they have to do it all over again.
Then fifty years later three thousand out of two hundred million yanks die in the first attack on her home soil...well ever, and the biggest tantrum in the last fifty years is thrown and we're told over and over and over again how we should all feel so sorry and damn it, it's just the worst thing ever to happen to anyone! We listen for nearly a decade about how awful it all was, patting them on the head, saying "there there it's ok". All the while quietly waiting for them to grow a pair and grow the fuck up. How they have the audacity to put shit on the frogs who each and everyone lived through, experienced *personally* not just on the TV or paper, and fought valiantly in the most awful warfare in the history of this world...twice, when they carry on like such a bunch of drama queens about such a tiny incident in the history of the world is quite frankly embarrassing.
It's ok to have a bit of a dig and friendly rivalry, but the yanks seem to have started believing their bullshit. The comparison of an immature bratty teenager really is apt.
France didn't get taken over in the first world war. The French army moved reserves to the front line when it appeared Paris may fall (even using taxis) and stopped the aggressor German imperial army, and then the next four years was spent without the front moving much.
I'm an Australian and I haven't heard that joke before. Perhaps more indicative is the fact that in two world wars French freedom stood for something that Australians were willing to die for. The French had no useful allies in the second world war in their time of need: the Americans didn't care and the British hardly had an army, let alone an army on the Continent. The disaster that befell France happened due to inaction of the democracies from 1935 onwards; the French army in 1940 can't take much of the blame, the situation was completely hopeless by then.
SEX is better when it is free
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Needed to be said. As a Briton I've more fondness for France than America (an unusually position as most people here loathe them both with equal measure) and am getting tired of these French=Cowards jokes. In many ways their country is better than ours, and this should be a source of embarrassment for us because they have a similar sized economy and population. I guess that is why it is deemed necessary for the media to lay on the French-hate so thick, in case British people start to say "Hey, why can't we have fast trains that turn up on time?" and such stuff.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?