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French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP
Racketiciel writes "A French user asked for a refund after buying an ASUS computer
that came with Windows XP and other software pre-installed. ASUS tried to
apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer than they
will give back... The court ruled in favor of the user,
who received back 130 Euro (~200 $) for the software.
Here is the ruling (PDF, French). In France, this is the fourth victory for refund seekers during the last two years,
and many people are now filing for refunds (in French). Two French associations (AFUL
and April) published
a press release on this victory the same day an important hearing happened." The English-language press release linked above gives a pretty good idea of what happened here, for those unsuited to wading through French.
welcome our anti-XP French overlords.
I don't know that I have anything solid to base this on, but I've always guessed that the real cost per copy that larger systems makers have to pass on to Microsoft is more in the $30 range.
.."système d'exploitation". In the case of Windows, that seems appropriate.
Did he know it came with XP Pre-Installed?... If he did, I don't agree with this, if he didn't, then I do, provided it wasn't his own negligence.
ASUS (or wherever distributor) probably has the option of having a barebones components only option for purchasing, so do that, or at least ask if you can get one if its not advertised.
If it says "Comes With Windows XP Pre-Installed"... and he bought it, and then said "hey wait I dont want this"... too damn bad... keep the machine, or send the entire PC back... its not like it failed (jokes aside) as if it was a dud NIC or something...
"ASUS tried to apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer that they will give back..."
Tried? it seemed to have worked.
Anyone have a more informative non-french link to exactly what he bought, and what was advertised, etc?
Do Asus sell computers without Windows pre-installed in France? My French isn't good enough to find out, so if you could provide the link to this, it would be much appreciated for the rest of us /. readers not au fait with French.
The Mothership
But if i'm not mistaken the EULA does say "Click Disagree" and then take it back for a refund?
I have no idea what the EULA is. If I found something distasteful in it, I have the option of refusing and returning the software (the software itself generally says this).
How can I agree to something I haven't read yet?
The EULA includes the option to reject it. And ProCD, the leading case for the enforceability of EULAs, supports the proposition that a EULA wouldn't be enforceable if you couldn't reject it and return the software for a refund. If people weren't supposed to be free to take advantage of the option, it wouldn't be there. So no, people shouldn't be stuck with it.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Except that, the power windows and AC didn't come with paperwork, provided only after the sale, that not only said "you must agree with this", but also "if you don't, give it back and you'll get a refund for it".
Collector's Edition
Tying a product with something else violates article L122-1 of the French law. The argument is that some giant corporation might convince or coerce somebody to bundle one of its products, creating a de facto monopoly. This is the same reason no telecom operator can force you to buy a subscription with your iPhone.
If you don't like the law, stay out of France. The majority of the population here like it very much as it keeps the competition alive and healthy.
Res publica non dominetur
Does your car dealer sell you a car, you drive it away, then when you go to use the power windows it pops up an EULA with onerous terms that you don't agree to?
Here in France it's forbidden by law to sell a product only if you also buy another: the customer must be able to buy it alone. You car analogy is bad because the "whole" car is considered as a single product, while the computer is a product without it's operating system. And even if you don't agree with this concept or anything, that's not the point here: since it's forbidden by law, any customer who asks a refund (without previously using the packed Windows of course) will win in court. That doesn't mean they have to sell computers without operating systems at all, they only need to give a *real* way to get a refund. Not asus' crappy "yeah we keep your computer for a month and you pay the shipping too, then we give you back 30euros".
Thats complete and utter BS.
If I wanted an ASUS Computer, I should be able to buy JUST THAT. Most manufacturers still dont have a "No OS" option for their configured systems, and I'm damn sure that there isn't a single computer sold in a retail store that has "No OS" as an optional package(at least in the US).
Look, if the guy doesn't want to pay the Microsoft Tax, then he shouldn't have to. Last time I checked, they were 2 completely seperate companies, ASUS and Microsoft. Imagine that if every manufacturer pre-installed a $1000 copy of Adobe CS3 and you couldn't opt out of it, wouldn't you be a little pissed off? Wouldn't you feel that you'd have the right to get your money back for something you didn't want in the first place? This isn't the slightest bit different. Not to mention the whole EULA problem. If you can't see the EULA before you purchase something, you can't just say "Oh, well, I won't buy this then". If he didn't agree with the EULA upon starting his computer (which it may not have even appeared, if ASUS preinstalled XP, which would create a whole new problem in itself) then he has every right to tell ASUS to kiss his ass and give him his money back.
All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
"you don't have a "right" to buy a computer not bundled with Windows XP"
Actually you're wrong, in France this is a right covered by law: two products sold together must be available alone too. You may agree or not with it, but in the end it's law and computer seller have to do it, so when an user go to court he wins.
ASUS in France offers to buy back the Windows license, but the user must ship the computer two ways at his own expense, and he gets only 25 Euros back for the Windows license, and ASUS can keep the computer as long as they want to do that. French law forbids tie-ins, such as forcing someone to buy a computer with an OS already installed. The court felt that the 25 Euros combined with the cost of shipping the computer both ways and the fact that the procedure had undetermined duration was effectively discouraging the user from using that capability. Therefore ASUS lost.
Your analogy is not sound, you _can_ buy a car without power windows or AC, it's extremely difficult to buy a computer without a Microsoft operating system.
The computer was sold with XP pre-installed & a "shrink-wrapped" EULA. She wanted a computer but not XP, but was unable to buy a computer without XP pre-installed. This is generally called "The Microsoft Tax", because people who buy computers in order to run other Operating Systems (yes there are others) are forced to pay this tax.
She didn't want to pay this "tax" so asked to be refunded the cost of XP.
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
This will force the PC vendors (in France anyway) to provide better Linux options.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Those people don't care about the choice and wouldn't know how to make it if one were present. The exceptions to that statement buy Macs.
Can't MS just send some programmers over there to take over the country?
It's not like they'd put up a fight...
You mean, like they did when they defeated the British Army and won the American War of Independence?
Unlike USA - where the DOJ's anti-trust ruling has no real impact on MS's business - the Eurpoeans take this more seriously. They feel that there should be options other than the monopolistic one.
Forcing vendors to give back more than the XP cost sends a clear message: give non-MS options or feel the pain.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
You missed the point. The laws says that it is illegal to refuse to sell you a computer if you are willing to pay for it. The law also says that the store cannot legally tie two products together.
This means that if you want to buy a computer without the OS they must sell it to you without it
and not charge you for windows that you don't want.
Why is a car considered a single product, while a computer including an operating system is not? The computer is pretty useless without an operating system. This law is stupid because if consistently applied it would lead to unbelievably absurd outcomes.
Frosty piss posts are worthless, GNAA posts are worthless and hurtful, but they are the least of this site's neuroses.
actually the russians did all the hard work to win the war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II , so mebe you could argue that Paris would be Doestroyevskigrad or something.
Whilst it may be trivial to remove an OS from a computer, it's certainly not trivial to get refunded for something you do not want. In this case it took a court case.
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
The *real* second wrong here is that the person had to go to court to get what they should have been able to buy in the first place.
Agree completely. Here in the UK I can buy unencumbered computer-tooters from Novatech.
:-)
Yay.
Disclaimer: I have no association with them other than being a satisfied customer
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
Nah, that's a bullshit analogy. That's like your saying that a car needs power windows or AC to be usable - it's as if you're saying that an OS is an optional extra.
To be really useful cars, whether or not they have AC, need roads. Even off-road cars don't last long without them. Roads are the things that facilitate the application of the tool (car) to the task (transport), much like computer operating systems are to computers.
For a better analogy, try this:
See the difference?
I don't therefore I'm not.
You can't force someone to accept the terms of a license simply thru purchase. If you could, then I would sell iPhones for $1 which also include my special new license that entitles me to half of your yearly salary.
Your "too bad you bought it" doesn't hold up. If it did, then does that mean that once we make the purchase we can copy and redistribute it? Or decompile and alter it? If you say "too bad you bought it", then I've got my own theory that says "too bad you sold it to me".
Well, it turns out that the situation isn't so lawless, because there's something called a software license. Once again, you can't force someone to accept a license, especially if you haven't even been given the opportunity to read the license yet. The license says that you don't have to accept it, but if you do then you can't do things such as modify the software or copy it and distribute it to others for free. But the people in bed with M$ are hoping that you won't decline the software license, because there's usually a part in it which says that you're entitled to a refund if you don't agree.
I applaud the people in these articles for standing up for their rights. It's not stupid socialist law, it's simply using the software license against M$. They're hoping you won't take them up on that part of the deal, and will blindly accept the Microsoft Tax even if you don't want it.
What surprises me is that the French got labelled as surrender-happy, when Norway, Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg all did the same thing, not to mention the Italians which switched sides in both world wars to avoid being the losing side.
:P ).
Btw France fought tooth and nail in the first world war, so its not from that (and it certainly wasn't taken over, you might want to brush up on history a bit
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
Tied selling, whether applied to banks forcing you to buy insurance to get a loan, even when you are already insured, or to buying a PC with MS Windows pre-installed, is illegal in many jurisdictions. The MS EULA also says something to the effect that you can refuse to use it and get a refund. These lawsuits simply hold the sellers responsible for all their promises.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Only if its applied by stupid people, for whom common sense is a little too much to ask. My guess is you have spent too much time in the US.
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
You MUST be an american. I know of no german speaking like this. For a simple reason : they get history taught in college there. France was not "taken over" in both world war, only 1. The "great war" the trench/battle limit went back and forth north of France, but nobody took over France. For the second war, what did you expect them ? To die like a single man ? Are you for real ? You are aware that "die in honor" is an outdated previous century concept, and all modern commander would accept surrendering ? There was no cowardiness shown by france during WW2, don't get me started also on resistance and the work thereof under extremly awful condition (torture, execution, hostage killing etc...). And by perpetuating this mostly US joke, all you show is your pettiness of spirit. Jeez and I bet you will be one of the first to complain that french give you the finger.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I like your enthusiasm but you're wrong!
Point 1) As offered by the VENDOR, the customer simply exercised their LEGAL right to not agree with the EULA supplied with laptop as they didn't want the OS but wanted the laptop.
Point 2) Well, thats just silly. Again, please read Point 1.
But I suppose having people exercise their rights to not be ripped off by what amounts to not much more than collusion is somehow against the constitution?
Bear in mind, quite often in principle the groups supporting people like this, are also the groups supporting things like, not being discriminated against with DNA testing, health insurance, etc, etc. But I guess you would see things like that as bad for business too?
So... people should have to pay in order to NOT have this crap pre-installed on computers they buy, so as not to hurt poor little Asus? A simple request should damn well be enough not to have a ton crap I don't want on the computer I'm already paying for. I shouldn't have to pay extra to get it removed. (This is part of why I always build my own.) You say two wrongs don't make a right, but how the hell is it wrong for a court to rule that the consumer has the right to buy a computer without crap pre-installed on it without paying extra?
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.
This is the point I was trying to get at. If my AC example isn't sufficient, we can use the example of a car's engine. She buys a Honda Civic and those jackass Honda people include a crappy Civic engine. Why should she be forced to use it when she wants to put in a Mustang engine. Should Honda offer everyone a car without an engine by law, or should there be a law requiring Honda to remove the engine on demand and reimburse the person for the cost-as-new of the removed engine?
I'm asking seriously, how is this any different than a computer. The point is if you start to apply this law to other items it illustrates how absurd it is, and how nonsensical it becomes to do business over any product that isn't a single component.
You get relegated to selling only apples, single cuts of meat, individual plates, DVD seasons that are sold by disc - the case also separate, and every piece of electronic equipment is a build-it-yourself of basic single electronic components (sold separately by law)!
So in your reasoning: If I bought a boeing jet-line, but it only came with passenger seats and I wanted a cargo version, you could force me to buy all the passenger seats?
How could she possibly know the content of the EULA before buying the computer? It isn't represented to the person until boot.
On top of that, most sane courts in the EU laughs at contracts like the EULA.
Also you totally missed the point about the rights of the consumer in France, seeing your sig you are obviously from the US which is probably why you never heard of consumer rights.
And the last thing - most of us wouldn't mind if MS packed their backs and got the fudge out of EU.
In fact... if I'm not mistaken, France was the first country in which an unlocked iPhone was required to be offered as an alternative to the usual operator lock-in.
The fact is the Windows EULA is presented on first boot of any new computer that comes with windows.
This agreement states that if you do not agree to the terms you may turn off the computer and request a refund for Windows.
Anyone and Everyone who buys a new computer with windows pre-installed has the right to get a refund for Windows.
The reason this went to court was because ASUS was charging the customer more for shipping than they were refunding for Windows.
Anyone who says this shouldn't have gone to court is shooting themselves in the foot.. Even us in the USA have the right to return windows if we disagree with the EULA. I don't want OEM's making it cost me money to do so!
Yeah being part of Canada would be AWFUL. You'd have a decent minimum wage and free health care. What a nightmare that'd be.
The law explictly, specifically, prohibits tie-ins. It's the fucking law. It applies to carpets, car insurance, hair stylists and frozen vegetables. So why shouldn't it apply to computer and operating systems?
If you or Asus don't like it, why don't you fucking go to Russia or something?
1. It's the law. If you don't like French law, stay out of the fucking country, it's not like Asus was forced to come here anyway.
... A FUCKING REFUCKINGFUND. The judge said that a refund should be a full, no question asked, no bothersome bullshit ship your computer at your own cost pseudo refund.
2. It's the fucking law.
3. The EULA says that if you don't agree, you are entitled to
4. IT'S THE FUCKING LAW.
No, people exercising their rights is fine. No one should be ripped off. What I'm saying however, is if the vendor did not sell her the product the way she wanted it, why would she buy it just to sue? I'm more than certain that she had alternative choices.
Because she didn't have any alternative choices. Unless you're a techno-geek who knows how to build your own system from parts, or you're looking for a subnotebook like the XO or the EEE, it's incredibly difficult to find anything that doesn't come with a Microsoft OS bundled. If you're looking for a name-brand consumer machine (ie. you're not buying on a corporate account), it's effectively impossible. This person, like most, had two choices: buy a computer with some variety of Windows bundled, or don't buy a computer.
The French court here seems to be saying "The specific OS isn't an integral part of the computer, witness all the ones sold with different OSes. It's easy enough for vendors to supply a machine without an OS. Under French law the consumer has the right not to be forced to buy additional products just to get the one they're nominally buying. The vendor's refund program appears to acknowledge that, but it's more convoluted and costly than it has any reason to be. Vendor, stop playing games and give her the money back like the law says you have to.".
The EULA says she has to abides by its term or get a refund if she declines. Well, guess what, the judge felt that the vendor had to respect the terms of what it put forth.
Big fucking surprise.
This thread is so full of fail, it's painful.
If the memory of the people in the US went a little more back into history they'd also notice that France actually totally kicked the Western World's ass lead by a tiny Corsican. It's not like the can't fight, you know.
And Germany (then Prussia) saved the world from France once. At the battle of Waterloo.
Not only did Blücher's troops play a huge part in it, Wellington's troops also had a big share of German troops.
So I guess if you dig around long enough then most of the major nations have once saved other nation's asses and at other times kicked other nation's asses. So what.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Yeah, but I doubt that was the parent post's point, rather a computer without any operating system.
But since you brought up Apple, what if someone for whatever reason wanted to by an Apple computer, but didn't want OSX? Apple doesn't give you the option to buy a Mac pro w/o an OS. Of course that's a moot point, since most people would buy a Mac because of the OS rather than them simply getting a PC and taking whatever OS they're given.
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
I've fought that battle, and believe me, PC manufacturers are terrified by Microsoft's behind-the-scenes bullying and price manipulations should they dare to try selling machines without Windows. It took me seven years of work and four years of convincing to get ONE brand-name manufacturer to sell me laptops without operating system to sell to my customers, and that manufacturer is Fujitsu-Siemens. Every single other brand chickened out of the deal, including big names like Lenovo (then IBM).
So no, I'm reasonably sure it wasn't possible to get that machine without Windows, which is product tying and illegal (in France and other countries) anyway. Second, she couldn't read the EULA before she bought the product, but as the EULA allows her to return the Windows license for a refund if she doesn't agree with it, she's completely right.
I find it even more astonishing to see the lengths most English native speakers go to as not to be forced to speak any other language at all.
I've been living in Japan for 12 years now, and it's really amazing how perseveringly most English native speakers manage not to learn the local language beyond the level of a 4-year-old. It's amazing.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Actually Norway never surrendered. They moved their administration to London.
Suppose every computer came with an intel chip, even the AMD systems - you can get an AMD, but itel gets paid either way. Would you object to that being illegal?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
After all, they're only interested in their customer's benefit. Surely MS is glad that french customers have now more choice than ever.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
The "French surrender a lot" meme is different - whatever its origin, and the Onion article that helped propagate it in the ~2000 timeframe, the US right wing started pushing it heavily during the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq, because the French weren't jumping onto Bush's bandwagon, and it was a convenient way to get the rubes to attack anyone who wasn't cooperating, further drawing them in to the neo-con's frame of reference.
But it was especially important for Bush, because the obvious name to call the Iraqis who fought back against the US-led invasion would have been The "Iraqi Resistance", in parallel to the French Resistance of WWII, who everybody remembers at least vaguely as having been brave fighters against an overwhelming attacker, which was really really not the meme that Rove et al wanted to have around.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Because in order to use the software installed, you had to agree to a separate license agreement with a third party who was not involved in the legal and financial transaction of buying the computer. Furthermore, that license agreement was not conveyed to you before you purchased the computer. If your car was a Honda civic, and it was advertised as coming with AC, but when you got it, it had a sticker over the AC button that said "By pressing this button you agree to be bound into the following legal agreement with Acme AC conditioners Ltd, France. You agree that any and all disputes will be governed by the laws of France. If you do not agree with this agreement, return this AC unit for a refund." etc etc. What would your response be? I suspect you would feel that you should be able to take it back and say "I'll take the refund". Furthermore, I suspect that if they said "We will have to charge you the cost to tow the car to and from the garage, they will keep it as long as they want, and you'll get 1/10 the price of buying the AC unit alone back" you would be a little upset.
I think you'll find that it's part of the American culture to assume that they got where they are on their own, under their own steam by the sweat of their own brow, and that the rest of the world is a bunch of useless incompetent fools who blunder along blindly. Kind of the same attitude that teenagers have about their parents and grandparents. Not having the slightest clue what it was like for them and that they haven't actually gone through *anything* without someone holding their hand yet.
The truth of history is completely at odds with this, Americas success came from being geographically isolated from it all and more than a bit of international help when needed. This and the same double crossing ruthlessness that they accuse the rest of the world of has led to the USA of now, not some magical concoction of pixie dust available only to Americans. Just population and a smooth run for over 100 years. My country's the same, but we just call ourselves lucky.
It's nicer to believe myths than the truth, especially a truth that painfully goes against everything you 'know'.
Even the truth of what the French endured last century is quite painful to understand to a reasonable person. How many tens of millions dead and wounded, how viciously they fought in WW1, under conditions that make Iraq and Vietnam look like a stay at the Hilton in comparison. Where chemical weapons were used by both sides like regular munitions, fields were metres thick with the dead tens of thousands of men, who died to gain inches of land. Then 20 years later they have to do it all over again.
Then fifty years later three thousand out of two hundred million yanks die in the first attack on her home soil...well ever, and the biggest tantrum in the last fifty years is thrown and we're told over and over and over again how we should all feel so sorry and damn it, it's just the worst thing ever to happen to anyone! We listen for nearly a decade about how awful it all was, patting them on the head, saying "there there it's ok". All the while quietly waiting for them to grow a pair and grow the fuck up. How they have the audacity to put shit on the frogs who each and everyone lived through, experienced *personally* not just on the TV or paper, and fought valiantly in the most awful warfare in the history of this world...twice, when they carry on like such a bunch of drama queens about such a tiny incident in the history of the world is quite frankly embarrassing.
It's ok to have a bit of a dig and friendly rivalry, but the yanks seem to have started believing their bullshit. The comparison of an immature bratty teenager really is apt.
This whole argument has nothing to do with IF the supplier offers systems without the product. The whole argument here is that as a user you can choose not to agree with the EULA and therefore are not buying the software.
What the court has said was that it was not fair to charge you $200 for the software but only refund you $25 if you didn't choose to accept it.
And doesn't matter where you are from or how you buy your software/systems/pc - charging you $200 for something and refunding you $25 for it in an unused state is simply not fair.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
Your point interests me in a way you do not intend.
The only reason we view engines and air conditioning as irreplaceable parts of the car is the historical way we got here.
It would be fairly easy to force car makers to use standard connections and mounts and form factors for air conditioners and alternators instead of allowing the auto companies to customize them so they can be bundled.
I can't see that there is a need for more than a few kinds of alternators or A/C units.
Even for engines, the mountings could be standard even if the guts are custom.
AND if they were standardized, then the costs should drop dramatically. All the standardized parts would be commodotized.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
MSI announced two versions of the "Wind" UMPC notebook, Windows versions and Linux versions.
They are pulling this scam too by making the linux version with 50% less RAM, 50% less battery and taking away bluetooth!
Needless to say, many are miffed that they would have an unwanted software charge attached to the price just to get the more capable hardware!
Independent of this article I was bloody well going to ask for a refund on the unused XP as the precedent is already several years old IIRC. This news just makes my surety to demand it off them go from 50% to 95%.
Here's the basic rundown of US consumer rights:
-You have the right to not be misled regarding what you are buying.
-You have the right to refuse to buy something.
That's it (I don't think I've missed anything big). In addition to those, we have anti-monopoly laws, the basic gist of which is:
-You cannot, through monopolistic powers, interfere with the business of competitors.
For instance, you can't say (to a consumer) "I'll sell you my widgets cheaper if you agree to not buy widgets from Bob for the next year." You also cannot say (to a distributer) "I won't allow you to distribute my goods so long as you also carry Bob's brand of goods." The reason these things are are bad is that you are pushing Bob out of the market without actually competing with him. And that's the essence of these laws: competition.
Now the reason this French law seems stupid to Americans is because Microsoft is not preventing competition with anyone! Certainly if they are using their market power to keep ASUS from bundling with competitors (or, I suppose, selling an unbundled product), that's a problem; but really what the French law is trying to do is **preempt** the harmful act, and in doing so it is overly broad.
At least that's how Americans see it.
Jokes are just that.
In Texas, we make all kinds of jokes about "Aggies" implying they are exceptionally stupid.
And then there are blond and dead baby jokes.
Your average french citizen is similar to people from other cultures.
I'm sure the french soldiers on the Magenot [sp] line would have fought very hard to defend france but they got driven around. The folks behind the line were not ready to fight germans with tanks with virtually no warning. To have something like the impact of a blitzkrieg war today, imagine that an enemy country could teleport their entire army inside your country.
However, just like an "aggie" joke or a "blonde" joke or a "dead baby" joke wouldn't make any sense with some other subject, the "french surrender" jokes wouldn't be funny with someone else now. I laughed at the "French military rifles for sale, dropped once" joke myself.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
The French law forbids to tie-in a product (like a computer) with a service (like a software license). You must sell each of them individually.
To make a better car analogy, it would be like selling a car with a mandatory insurance policy or a 10-year repair contract.
Don't be obtuse. You surely know that consumer PCs without preinstalled Windows are about as common as new cars sold without engines. And please don't tell me that I'm wrong just because your notions of what the free market should provide don't match the reality of what the free market does provide.
I imagine that it is no easier to find a Windowless PC in France than in the US. In fact, it is damn near impossible for a consumer in the US to buy a PC without Vista much less without a Microsoft OS.
Don't believe me? Try it. I have. It's possible. It's not easy.
About the only MS-less PC you can buy easily in the US is Wal-Mart's $199 PC (Everex TC2502) which comes with a Linux gOS that is gorgeous visually, but quite buggy compared to other Debian based Linuxes. The TC2502 uses a Via C7 CPU running at 1.5GHz. I personally think that's good because of its low power consumption, but this is a low end machine with 500mb of memory, 80GB hard drive, ho-hum graphics, slow CPU. If I recall correctly, they have to upgrade the hardware (and the price of course) in order to shoehorn Vista into it.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Free beer is never free as in speech. Free speech is always free as in beer.
I don't like the "if applicable" at the end of this sentence. Who decides, and based on what reasons?
Open Source Alternatives
Actually, The Netherlands only surrendered because the Germans flattened Rotterdam (an unprotected city) by bombarding it unannounced. After that they threatened to do the same to other cities in the country.
The other countries that you mention as having surrendered didn't get the same treatment.
I can still remember that some years ago the slashdot crowd cheered at the people who have tried to get a refund for OEM Windows preinstalled on their computers.
Either the people here are different now or it is french bashing time. Maybe both.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
americans are loud mouths, who have no idea about anything outside their own country.
And like all teenagers they think they can fix all the worlds problems, almost cute
preview button, my computer does't have any preview button
PS: not polite to reply to my own post: another thing is that The Netherlands was neutral in the first world war, and also claimed neutrality here. Even though France and Belgium had already declared war to Germany in 1939.
So when Belgium and France surrendered, they surrendered to a country they themselves were at war with. But when Germany invaded the Netherlands they attacked a country that had invested little in the military since the turn of the century and that explicitly chosen to stay neutral in the conflict.
France didn't get taken over in the first world war. The French army moved reserves to the front line when it appeared Paris may fall (even using taxis) and stopped the aggressor German imperial army, and then the next four years was spent without the front moving much.
I'm an Australian and I haven't heard that joke before. Perhaps more indicative is the fact that in two world wars French freedom stood for something that Australians were willing to die for. The French had no useful allies in the second world war in their time of need: the Americans didn't care and the British hardly had an army, let alone an army on the Continent. The disaster that befell France happened due to inaction of the democracies from 1935 onwards; the French army in 1940 can't take much of the blame, the situation was completely hopeless by then.
You knew what the EULA was
No you don't. The EULA is INSIDE the package, genius.
Besides, how the hell are we supposed to produce Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Maseratis? By playing a righteous and possibly loosing game? The world isn't waiting for "Italian character" or needing it for that matter. It just wants the insane and magnificent works of art. And yes, I count the cars produced by aforementioned companies as works of art.
"But how 'bout the shitty cars we produce?", you may ask. Well these generate the capital to be able to create artworks. Having said that, currently Fiat isn't doing badly. Also, Alfa seems to have closed the horrifying period that started in the 80ies and went well on into the late 90ies. Now if they start making lighter, rear wheel driven cars and a bit more stuff lke the 8C they will truly excel. Again.
Art is the ultimate expression of civilisation. When everything alse is achieved, that's what you will consider next.
In short, our apologies for being crap at fighting righteous wars. However, we do compensate.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
(US Marine, College Student, and Proud Parent!)
US Marine > I suspect you must be an authoritarians, hence your tendency to side with authority (in this case, Microsoft), no matter how wrong, against the little guy, no matter how right.
That's the same mindset that make some people blame the victim in case of rape (look at what she was wearing!), prisoner abuse (if he was in prison he probably deserved it!), war crimes, and so on.
It's not your fault, just follow the link in my sig and educate yourself.
In Europe we tend to prefer to not rely on the whims of the corporations and instead just force them to do what we want.
2) English are pompous
I believe you mean imperious, you colonial peon.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
A heck of a lot of us live in countries where the native language isn't English. I'm English from the UK, but living 20 years over here in Greece (Europe).
Most of the laptop vendors ship *only* the local native language version of (mostly) Windows Vista. If you're really lucky then you might see the English version. I spend a lot of time "cleaning" bloody Greek Vista *off* new Acers, HP notebooks and replacing it with English XP. You see - here in Athens (Greece if you forgot) we have lots and lots of people from all over the world (who don't want a Greek system but got stuck with it when they bought their nice new shiny whatever).
I have the pleasure of babysitting a friends internet cafe (on sundays it's more like Manilla than Athens because that's the day the girls from the Phillipines get their day off - eat yer heart out basement dwellers (grins)).
Some of this nonsense wouldn't be needed if Vista shipped MUI out of the tin . (Curiously though the MUI version of XP seems to be the norm amongst my friends from the arab world).
If a machine ships with what is essentially a "useless" system, then you should be able to refuse the EULA and get a refund. What i'd really like to see is some EU wide ruling as to the *size* of that refund so that consumers would be aware of their rights . Fitness for use etc. is an issue.
Andy.
I can't believe one second that you're German. As a French living in Arras, town that was on the frontline of both wars, I can tell you that you're disgusting me..
One of the few things I know of my grand-grand-father is that he had drank his pee while defending his country from (probably) your grand grand father? This war was terrible. Millions died, not least by the incompetency of the generals, and on both sides soldiers did their duty to the end in the most horrific conditions. No one could live the battlefront with any sanity left. Don't talk me about being taken over, because we didn't fail despite contrary odds, and thanks to the US and English and Canadian and Australian help.
When came the second world war, with the generals having made more or less the same errors as before ww1, I can understand that people only wanted to avoid a second tranch war. Actually, given that my small town of birth (Saint Laurent Blangy) was flattened (higher wall left after the war in the whole town: 1 meter) during ww1, my grand mother told me many times how women and children alike thrown themselves on the roads as soon as they knew ww2 was coming. This was an exodus to the south.
http://images.google.com/images?q=arras%20ruines%20guerre&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enFR258FR258&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
ps: let's hope you don't keep other funny ideas in your "German psyche / German blood".
pps: yeah for Europe.
Here are the highlights from the judgement.
Keep in mind that currently, 1 Euro is around
1.50 Dollars.
1 The buyer requested the vendor to run the init
routine and refuse the EULA. He left the shop with
a blank hard disk.
2 The EULA did offer refund to the non agreeing customer.
3 It was quite clear that ASUS' offer of 25 Euros plus at least a week turn-around plus courier to be paid by the customer would defeat most customers.
4 The plaintiff got 100 Euros for Windows, 30 Euros for crapware, 150 Euros for handling/shipping. He did not get the punitive 1000 Euros he wanted.
5 All costs for the case are on ASUS.
Last but not least: this is not the first French
judgement I read which is set up as a single sentence. You would not believe the wooden crap language they use.
I think Ferraris are commonly considered overcompensation...
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
They might have been "gutless" but they didn't surrender. And while certain elements were certainly nazi-friendly (notably the king), a lot of Swedes were actively helping the Norwegian resistance in bringing people who needed to escape over the border. A lot of Norwegian resistance fighters who got close to being captured can thank them for getting a safe haven when the nazis started closing in on them in Norway.
And then the place of purchase says 'not applicable, sucker'. Yes, every fucking time I've tried it in the US. Good thing there are countries with anti-tie-in laws as mentioned in TFA.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Americans (I am one) had no problem with the French I think until it came time to drop bombs on Lybia. The French denied fly-over rights. Now we are in a war with Iraq and the French haven't sent troops. I think both decisions by France were wise and justifiable. Now Americans blame the French for a big costly war when instead they should blame themselves for their own gullibility. Americans have a "with us or for terrorism" ideology, which is a silly ideology. You'll see some idiots quote stats about the the percentage of the French population that is Muslim and other pseuodo-intellectual arguments. Personally, I think Americans should get a grip on reality, grow some brains, get the hell out of Iraq, stop pissing every one off, and stop blaming every one else for their problems. I'm an American and I've done it.
That said, I personally have a problem with France because of mimes. Mimes suck and France should never had invented them.
Just callin' it like I see it.
Needed to be said. As a Briton I've more fondness for France than America (an unusually position as most people here loathe them both with equal measure) and am getting tired of these French=Cowards jokes. In many ways their country is better than ours, and this should be a source of embarrassment for us because they have a similar sized economy and population. I guess that is why it is deemed necessary for the media to lay on the French-hate so thick, in case British people start to say "Hey, why can't we have fast trains that turn up on time?" and such stuff.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Fix
It
Again
Tomorrow
"Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Actually in France Apple gives you a refund of OSX if you ask within 7days after having bought the computer. Some people like to waste their money and buy a Mac to run GNU/Linux.
where's my dear suddenoutbreakofcommonsense ??
The GPL is not an EULA. You only need agree to it if you ever redistribute GPL software; personal use & copying is granted explictly, unconditionally, and free of charge.
Windows wants you to agree to an EULA. Said EULA says that if you refuse you can get a refund.
We want the damn refund.
That is all.
I'm actually a Windows fan, and I don't like Linux at all, but I think this French law should be an example for every other country. Bundling software leads to anticompetitive behaviour and forces us all to pay more for software. In addition we end up with all the crapware bundled by manufacturers. I would love to be able to buy bare but brand name computer without anything preinstalled and have my own choice of what OS and what applications I want to install. It would also open up opportunity for the businesses that sell computers to offer preinstalled, customized software opackages or services of preinstalling software a la carte when customers buys new computer at their store. Competition is always good for the consumer. JacekM
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's a leftover of initial reactions in the media of Britain and the US to the shocking defeat of France in just a few weeks in 1940.
A similar thing happened in the first few days American stwith the Netherlands. While the Dutch army was being ripped apart by the Germans, newspapers in the rest of the world were wildly speculating about fifth columns and the neutral Dutch's unwillingness to really put up a fight (in other words treason).
Even though everyone already knew that the Dutch would be no match for the Germans, public opinion was simply not prepared for a war in which a country could be overrun in a matter of days. Even a lackluster performance should have been able to hold off the enemy for "just a month" in people's minds (with WWI as a frame of reference) to give the French time to deploy.
After the Germans finished off the Dutch, just a few days later the French-Belgian-British defence also started collapsing, and the newspapers shifted their attention to perceived French cowardice and incompetent leadership (treason being a lesser explanation here, since the French weren't neutral).
Since the Germans didn't KO any more formidable powers than France after that, this analysis of events got stuck in people's minds.
The events of 1940 of course clearly show the superiority of Germany over their neighbours, but comparing US performance in later years to the losers of 1940 is really apples and oranges: in the spring of 1940 the US standing army was no larger and hardly better prepared than the mobilized Dutch or Belgian one, and in 1940 all of Europe had just started producing newly designed aircraft and tanks that would have given them the edge over the Germans given a year. It is just distance and a large body of water that makes the difference.
That said (going with Europe since Europe seems to be the chosen "enemy" in this little discussion), our country is darned near as big as the entire continent of Europe. Our individual states are the size of many countries there. International travel isn't going to be as common - we can travel all over and see all sorts of different cultures, ideals, and geographic features within our own country. As far as variations and ideas, and regional politics, your average American has a lot more to keep track of to follow only "their own country" compared to most citizens of European nations.
Trust me, for all the animosity you might think we harbor towards you guys, most Americans don't really care one way or another, and we pick on ourselves much more. Heck just watch and wait until a story about a Southern US state pops up. You'll see countless (just as stereotyped and unwarranted) jokes about incest or the IQ of people in that state.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Check out also Battles_of_Narvik on Wikipedia. Combined British, French, Polish, and Norwegian forces won the first victory of WWII against the Wehrmacht there. We still honor every year those who fought with us and for us.