Slashdot Mirror
Total Phone and Email Database Proposed In UK
mishmash writes "The Times of London is reporting a proposal for a massive government database holding details of all phone calls, emails, and time spent on the Internet. This is to be justified as being 'part of the fight against crime and terrorism.' Quoting: 'Internet service providers and telecoms companies would hand over the records to the Home Office under plans put forward by officials.' If you want to write to representatives to let them know your views, contact details are available at Write to Them." UK telecoms are already required to keep records of phone calls and text messages for 12 months, accessible by subpoena; the requirement is already slated to expand to records of Internet usage, emails, and VoIP. This new proposal aims to centralize all that information in a single database in the Home Office.
Mr.Orwell! A telephone call for Mr.Orwell ....
But how about a much cheaper and effective method of keeping the UK safe from Teh Terrorists:
1. Stop supporting Israeli terrorism
2. Stop acting the lapdog to the United States rampaging through the Middle East in an effort to secure oil resources and pipelines and wacky Christian end of world judegement day type crazyness.
When doing something that is both unpopular and demonstrably ineffective, the obvious solution is to do more of it. Those clever Brits! A perfect model for the future of U.S. legislation!
If the British Government had any balls, they'd build their own version of the Great Firewall and log everything that goes through a node on their national infrastructure.
That way you can call it what it is.
Instead, the ISPs are being pulled into doing the dirty work, which means the gov't gets shielded from some of the heat.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Often the fact that you communicated with a certain individual is suspicious enough, especially if encryption was used. You don't necessarily need to know what was said to learn a lot of useful information.
In fact, if you can get enough people to write in fearing some sort of massive problem, any bill that can be seen to have the slightest association with that fear, no matter how much the original fear was inflated, will never come to pass.
My preferred name is frazz, but someone keeps taking it. If you see him, tell him I said hi.
Because history shows that a negative public reaction will make them think twice. The whole point of this "leak" is to test that public opinion, and allows MPs to avoid thorny questions. Frankly, being called a paranoid kook is preferable to being on a database.
insecurity asks the wrong question irritation gives the wrong answer
Being a U.S.-centric site, a lot of vitriol gets directed towards the US government around here (and so it should in relation to many laws and policies relating to "terrorism" and "security").
But what on earth is going on in the UK? Security cameras literally everywhere, compulsory DNA databases, laws permitting detention without charge or trial for long periods of time, that insane proposal for a law to allow laws to be made and abolished by regulation (i.e. without a vote in parliament), and this obsession with centralising government control over information, particularly insofar as it relates to the movements and communications of private citizens. The list goes on and on.
Britain stood virtually alone against fascism in World War Two, and was a bastion against the totalitarian Soviet bloc during the Cold War. Before then the UK resisted the power of the Catholic church, eliminated any real power for its despotic monarchs, and even briefly pioneered the field of total republican independence from hereditory rule, later embraced by some more celebrated republics. Before any of that you managed to write the Magna Carta, perhaps the greatest document on the rights of the individual in human history.
Why did you even bother, only to willingly turn yourselves into a bureaucractic authoritarian state? Sure, you're not murdering millions of your citizens in gas chambers, but you're only a hop, skip and a jump away from East Germany under the Stasi - total state surveillance and the tyranny of a huge, opaque executive government where faceless "officials" control the lives of citizens.
Wake up, before it's too late.
Read Pynchon.
Here it is:
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Brilliant stuff. Really sad. But brilliant.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
You know, stories like this make clear its a good thing the Nazis didn't win WWII. Just imagine if the Nazis had won, they might have tapped everyone's.....
er..... Nevermind....
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
This is the first comment I read. I do not need to go any further before saying that you are not only right, but have put forth the truth in such an eloquent manner.
History does repeat itself, or so they say.
1700-1900 is NOT that long of a time span at all in the grand scheme of things. Now consider all of the world changing events we saw in just two hundred years. The change saw are almost unimaginable by even the most creative of minds. What will another 200 years and scarce resources bring?
I do not think even the most intellectual of us can fathom what the world will look like in a hundred years. If it comes down to it, the police state WILL be enforced if deemed necessary, and it will all be already in place ready to go...
We think we are so different from those before us, but are you so naive to think that they did not feel the same way about their previous generations?
It really is time to get up and do something if you live in the UK. This kind of stuff makes me feel good to be in the US... for once.
Carl Marx wasn't a fascist he was a communist. Please don't confuse the the two, as the red scare really makes communism look worse than it is.
Help fight spam
It sounds like that we are moving to the state of "Pre-crime" where we will be charged with suspicious activity even when no crime has yet been committed.
All they need now is some curfews and laws against private gatherings.
Cue the 1812 Overture...
If I were British I would be considerably more afraid of my government than any terrorist. Believe me. I am. And when we raise our concerns, they ignore us and do what they want anyway. Learn this, we are no longer a democracy (rule of the majority), we're a totalitarianistic state. The vote is just something they 'allow' us to have because it appeases the masses. And please don't mod this down unless you actually live in the UK. I WISH this were a flamebait or a troll. I really do.
Have you guys seen what's been happening to the republican assholes who've been running our government?
I won't blame the Republicans, the powers that the PATRIOT Act gave Bush Clinton tried to grab as president too.
FalconShould there be a Law?
this is not just something the UK citizens should be protesting / revolting over... if this goes through it will set a precedence for other governments to follow. but that's not to say that it isn't already happening, black ops do happen
I think a few Russian journalists would beg to differ (if they were still alive, that is).
While the Prime Minister is appointed he is the leader of the party that dominates parliament. So in practice the people vote along party lines to get a certain PM.
The power of the house of lords has been curtailed quite a bit over history, especially at the beginning and end of the 20th century.
They can only delay bills, 1 month for monetary bills (new taxes etc) and 2 sessions of parliament or 1 year for other bills.
I believe that much of the opposition against the current police state has actually come from the house of lords.
I personally think that having a second house who's members don't have to worry about reelection to allow delays for second thoughts on legislation is actually a good idea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
But what on earth is going on in the UK? Security cameras literally everywhere, compulsory DNA databases, laws permitting detention without charge or trial for long periods of time ...
I understand where you are coming from, and I hate being surveilled myself, but let's try to understand the context in which this is happening. Necessity is the mother of invention. For the better part of a half a century, the UK has been under constant terrorist threat and subject to numerous (often hightly deadly) attacks. They have a lot of experience dealing with this and these measures have developed over time (accompanied by some very poor curial decisions). This is not unqualifiedly good, but neither is it surprising.
Now that sections of Islam have declared war on Western civilisation, the UK faces a particularly nasty threat, namely a HUGE number of poorly socialised (into British culture) and radicalised Islamic youth living within their very borders. As we sit here from a safe distance, several hundred potential Islamic suicide bombers are devising way to kill the maximum number of Britons possible.
Perhaps the problem was that the British state (which after all is not separated from the Anglican church), has been too tolerant of religious diversity in the past.</irony>
Sorry I'm not up to speed here. Delegated legislation is long established and is in use in virtually every common law country in the world. That's what a 'Regulation' (as opposed to an 'Act') is. Which particular insane proposal are you referring to that puts a new twist on this?
Britain stood virtually alone against fascism in World War Two, and was a bastion against the totalitarian Soviet bloc during the Cold War ... Why did you even bother, only to willingly turn yourselves into a bureaucractic authoritarian state?
Here you are simply committing an error of logic. While it is true that a "bureaucractic authoritarian state" would benefit from a highly surveilled society, a highly surveilled society by no means implies a "bureaucractic authoritarian state!" (Neither is the absence of effective surveillance a guarantee against authoritarian rule). This really depends on how robust British democracy is, how safe the legal framework is regarding the proper use surveillance, presumptions of innocence vs. protection of the public, data protection, privacy etc. etc. I don't think you should write off British democracy just yet (I mean it's not like they use electronic voting machines! ;)
Wake up, before it's too late.
I believe that's what they are doing! And one hopes that their basic liberal-democratic* values survive the challenge.
*I mean 'liberal-democratic' in the traditional sense of the term (ie. representative democracy through free elections balanced by respect for the rights of individuals, as embodied in the rule of law), not in the recent abusive misuse of the term to signify left-of-centre US Democrats, as employed by people who got their politcal education off the back of a Corn Flakes pack.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
But what on earth is going on in the UK? Security cameras literally everywhere,
... which will be talked about for a while, then thrown out.
Except there isn't
compulsory DNA databases,
If you're charged with a crime, you get a DNA sample taken. If it doesn't go to court for whatever reason, or you are not found guilty, the sample is destroyed (unless you've got a prior criminal record)
laws permitting detention without charge or trial for long periods of time
Yeah, the US has *nothing* like that that
insane proposal for a law to allow laws to be made and abolished by regulation (i.e. without a vote in parliament),
Laughed out of the house as soon as it was proposed
and this obsession with centralising government control over information, particularly insofar as it relates to the movements and communications of private citizens
The UK may have its faults, but I'd rather live here than in the US, where you've got a policeman training his gun on you wherever you go, ready to shoot and kill you at a moment's notice.
I emigrated from the UK to Australia five years ago, because basically, as one tradesman-type person said to me very succinctly before I left: "Yeah, Don't blame yer mate, it's all fucked, innit?".
And it is. It's not just the government though - it's also overpopulation, and the fact the the average Brit is happy to work all hours for faceless corps who don't give a fuck about them, because they're all up to their eyeballs in mortgage debt (and are led to believe that owning ones own house is the be-all and end-all of existence, so it's all worth it really). Towns are unfriendly and jammed with cars - there are now so many cars you can't move for the fucking things, being used or just parked. Housing estates are horrible hideous anonymous places with bad architecture, built so shoddily and close together that everyone's at each others' throats about the noise and where everyone shuns their neighbours because there is just no fucking privacy anymore. Simple fact - 60 million people and counting simply do not FIT into the British Isles.
People pay insane prices for food and other basic needs, and put up with crap quality because they have gradually forgotten what good quality IS. Supermarkets have taken over every town and turned them all into identikit clones of each other - distinguishable only by the small differences in their dysfunctional traffic-saturated ring-road systems. And what are the supermarkets full of? Ready meals full of chemicals - for FUCKS sake Britain, cook your own food!
There's no pride in anything - ones work, ones environment, ones town, and nobody actually makes anything anymore - it's all "service industry" whatever the fuck that means, what 'industry'?
I don't believe in conspiracy theories generally, (after all, conspiracies require competence, and that's a precious commodity these days), but if some shady organisation had wanted to hatch a plot (in the 1960s, say) to turn Britain into a sleepwalking nation of compliant consumers that took any old shit thrown at them with a shrug, they could not have done better than what has actually taken place since then. Britain can be a beautiful place, and it has its good points, and good people, but as a nation it's lost its soul. Very sad. WAKEY WAKEY!!!
I stopped reading at "Now that sections of Islam have declared war on Western civilisation.." Let me fix that for you: "Now that Western imperialist wars on Islamic countries have triggered terrorist responses.." Please, please get it right. Contrary to what you hear from adults around the playground "Who started it" is very important.
https://dalgamotor.wordpress.com/ - Elektronik beyinlere ozgurluk asisi (Turkish)
No, the mods are just Americans. The story was published and commented upon while everyone in Britain was asleep.
The reverse happens when America hasn't woken up when a story is published.
One of the problems in EU is that when a law is make at Brussels, it doesn't apply instantly (it have to be implemented locally) so people don't care. And when it's time to implement the law locally, well, it's too late, because states are obliged to implement Brussel's laws.
"Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom." Max Stirner
Oh for Goodness' sake. I know that it's very fashionable at the moment to claim that the UK and US are turning into repressive police states, but is this comment actually based on any knowledge?
Russia is moving toward becoming more free? Under Putin the state control of the media increased massively, the President's powers were increased hugely and the Duma was reduced to almost nothing. Now we have Medvedev, who won in a landslide that could never have been anything other than a landslide, while Putin is Prime Minister and still hugely powerful, leading a party with a constitutional majority and his hand-picked successor as president.
China is pretty much the archetypal example of a repressive regime working today. A country employing the most complex control system ever built to prevent the people exercising any control and employing methods that have been associated with tyranny since the days of Aristotle.
Claiming that these countries are as free as the UK or the US is a very strong statement, especially when you assert it with no evidence or information of any sort. It's a long time since we have been any different? The Republic of China has existed for 58 years, the Russian Federation for 16. And even if we just look at the UK it's difficult to see what you could be talking about.
In the UK we have a three party system. The candidates embody genuine differences in philosophy, have massive differences in their manifestos and represent different sides of the political divide. It's very popular at the moment to make fun of the parties for having no real differences in policy, but it's mostly popular among people who have no idea what the parties' policies are. People "go on about the vote as if it makes a difference" because it does make a difference - you sound like you're in the UK so you have probably noticed there are some by-elections on at the moment, and the peoples' votes are forcing the Government to give people what they want. If the by-elections are as bad for Labour as many people expect, their entire policy agenda will have to change. This accountability is one of the things the vote guarantees; politicians have to govern reasonably or lose office.
What's wrong with them? I think I've got a good idea...
Don't forget they have actually had a number of terror related incidents... more than one the US has had.
Yup, and we had a whole load more terror related incidents in the decades prior to 2000 from the IRA. We didn't need to treat the whole population as potential terrorists to deal with the threat then so why do we need to now?
When I was younger, and we had a constant threat of IRA terrorism, everyone always downplayed the dangers in an effort to keep people calm. Ever since 9/11, the US have been making a big deal about terrorism and (rather stupidly) the UK government have aligned themselves with the US. These days, the UK government seems to be following the US's lead and actively *hyping up* the terrorist threat - trying to make the public as scared as possible so they can push through new legislation like this.
This is not helped by the modern media who try to sensationalise stories as much as possible, to the detriment of the society as a whole. You don't even need to look at terrorism to see the effects the media have - last year, sensationalist reporting caused a run on the Northern Rock bank which was only saved from collapse by being hurriedly nationalised.
Back in the IRA days, it was often said that if we change the way we live because of terrorist threats then the terrorists have won. Well I guess we know who's won now don't we?
Who are the terrorists these days? Extremists - yes, they are going around blowing people up as they always have. The government - definitely, they are now terrorising the public by overstating the extremist threat in an effort to further their own political agenda.
http://blog.nexusuk.org