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UK Academics Arrested For Researching al-Qaida
D Afifi writes "Two political researchers at the University of Nottingham, in the UK, have been arrested under the Terrorism Act for downloading Al-Qaida material from a US government website. The material was to be used for research in terrorist tactics. There has been a huge public outcry, with university staff planning a march to demonstrate against the attack on academic freedom. Yet, one of the students, an Algerian, is still held in custody under immigration charges and is being fast-tracked for deportation."
The UK is the country furthest along the road to 1984.
in order to control the masses.
Fear is a common tactic used since the begging of civilization to manipulate people.
- Zeus will destroy you all!
- The devil will come for you and burn you for all eternity!
- Terrorists! omg! seek shelter at once!
- Human knowledge belongs to the world
Anyone have a link to the material in question? (Is it in English?)
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
They were reading material from a US government website. These are the same idiot agencies who attacked Iraq to "get rid of Weapons of Mass Destruction". Clearly if anyone is less able to produce proper intelligence and material - it's these gaffs.
It's like reading an article on how to improve your country's economy written by George Bush.
No offense to any American's reading btw - it's the agencies I have no respect for.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
You shall lose both, and deserve neither.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Fear drives so much in the form of bad governmental behavior. I feel for my British friends, as they must feel for Americans. Blair and Bush (now Brown), leading their countries down the path to an oil war-- not terrorism-- oil. Not religious self-righteousness-- war for oil and to destabilize governments not marching in-step with them.
The quotations of American and British patriots that warn that liberty at the cost of security is folly are now sadly worn out. My British friends have less hope because they believe that Tory and Labor, just like Democrats and Republicans, are largely the same. This is a dangerous time in the world for people not to believe in the integrity and veracity of their governments; more is at stake in interdependency than ever before. I hope, no pray, they listen to their constituents.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
As I RTFA I realized that this looks like standard jobsworth cops at large and could happen any day here in the U.S. Too much responsibility too little brains.
The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
Information should never be illegal unless it is a matter of (real) national security. Terrorist tactics are not a matter of national security, therefore the information should not be illegal. With the suppression of information comes the suppression of our freedoms. Read 1984 and see how close we are to becoming a similar society. In all dictatorships, it was first the information that was "dangerous to the state" then it became "dangerous to the state's morals" until all you can get is government propaganda.
Knowing terrorist tactics neither makes you a threat nor makes you a terrorist.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
1984 assumes the government is competent and really out to get everyone. In reality its more like the movie Brazil. Everyone mindlessly doing their job without any critical thought. Watching Brazil and comparing it to current events is truly horrifying.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
No one else seems to have covered this angle, so I'll bring it up. WTF is wrong with the University of Nottingham? I cannot believe a supposed institution of higher learning would sell its scholars down the river like that. This whole thing flies in the face of what a University is suppose to stand for. Perhaps I'm just naive.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
The problem is that the guy is "Facing Imminent Deportation Without Hearing" and that's the real issue here. Looks like the police just wants him swept under the rug. As reported, he has a visa, but there are questions: due to confusion over his visa documentation, charged with offences relating to his immigration status. He sought legal advice and representation regarding these matters whilst in custody. On Friday 23rd May, the Home Office informed his solicitor that he was being removed on Sunday 1st June and Hicham was moved to an immigration detention centre. Now, is it reasonable to deport someone (who lived in the country for 13 years) within only 7 days, without proper court hearings, presentation of witnesses, debates about the applicable law? The Home Office just wants him out, and with him being out there will be no hearings, and no inconvenient truth will come out. But until his status is investigated, and his lawyers can speak for him and argue his status, we can not say that he is legal or illegal immigrant. That is to be determined, and the fight is for his right to be heard in court, and his status determined by the judge - not by a bureaucrat.
I'm guessing that Mr AC doesn't remember that other 'terrorist' attack in the US. Down in Oklahoma? Memory getting better? There is very little reason to think that a Muslim is more likely than a white to create an act of great violence inside the US borders... school shootings anyone? Kent state? There are lots of examples. My how the black man cheered when the DC snipers turned out to be black... their first notable serial mass murderer. Up till then, all mass murderers were expected to be white.
How many Muslims are in the world? The Muslim population in 2006 is 1610.42 million. from http://www.islamicpopulation.com/world_general.html That's 1.6 BILLION or so Muslims.
Of that, 25 or so have attacked US citizens. Lets be generous and say 50 have attacked western countries. That amounts to... uhmmmm about 3.1047801194719389972802126153426e-6 percent of the Muslim population seems to be hell bent on knocking down buildings. The rest are trying to survive where they are. That, by the way, is a huge bunch of non-violent Muslims. Racial profiling does seem to make sense on face value, but dig a bit deeper and you find that the risk of violence from not invading privacy and personal rights is smaller than
I don't care if you are afraid of shadows, diminishing MY rights because of your irrational fears is still wrong, will always be wrong, and always has been WRONG.
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By my estimates there are many government and other activities which could be considered 'terrorist' by some definitions of the word. Back in South Africa Nelson Mandela was considered a 'terrorist'. So how do we define 'terrorism' without implicating the so-called 'good guys'?
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Just wanted to clarify why he's being deported. The brits' reaction to the downloading of the document was a bit extreme, but if ya want to live in a country then ya gotta play by their(sometimes idiotic) rules
But there is something fundamentally wrong with the government if you're an academic and visiting a web site brings you to the attention of the immigration departmnet in the first place.
I think it is pretty obvious that the government decision and policy makers are useless without the people to execute their orders.
Why aren't we actively protesting to those people? These people are responsible for their actions and are responsible for acting on their own conscience. It's easy to show that various campaigns to influence government policy and direction even in small degrees.
How possible might it be to influence the arms and legs of bad government to refuse to act against its conscience?
Well considering they're in the UK and getting it off a US site, entrapment would probably be a far stretch.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
Tagged: 1984 (of course)
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was studying passenger jets, not Al Qaida literature. The real terrorists plotting a crime have already been recruited, and don't need to read any more Al Qaida stuff. Arresting someone for reading Al Qaida stuff is at best a "pre-crime": they might be converted and decide to commit crimes in the future so we have to stop them now. More likely, this is another case of panicked stupidity causing the innocent to suffer.
Just wanted to clarify that the UK still has due process. Being *charged* with an immigration crime is not the same as being guilty of said crime. Your reaction to the arrest was a bit extreme, but if ya want to have free speech then ya gotta put up with reactionary (sometimes total bullshit) posts on message boards.
Thank you Dave Raggett
I wonder how many of the 7/7 students (and 9/11 airflight "students") researched terrorist tactics before they went off to kill others.
The question on your mind really should be "How many people have researched terrorist tactics before they went off and killed no one?" TLAs are a good place to start looking -- they're full of people who specialize in terrorism. Military men of all stripes are now familiar with at least the basics of urban guerrilla warfare. Curious gawkers, military aficionados, Medal of Honor players.
So, let me get this straight. In order to uphold peace, freedom, civilization and whatnot, we clamp down hard on the academics. So far, so familiar. Now, just for the masterstroke, We focus out little witch hunt on pro-UK moderates, from middle eastern cultural and ethnic backgrounds, with an academic interest in terrorism. Y'know, because it isn't like those sorts of people might prove useful or anything? WTF. Cracking down on academic researchers under some sort of all-encompassing "state's power to do whatever, to whomever" act is bad enough; but not even doing it pragmatically? If 10 Downing Street were to enter the twilight zone, would anybody notice?
... I don't think that it was a "war for oil" because had it been a "war for oil" we would have more oil. We had a War On Drugs, and now there are more and cheaper narcotics than ever before.We had a War On Poverty, which widened the gap between rich and poor.
We're in a War On Terror, and there is more war and fear and uncertainty about the future of the world than at any other time since World War II.
What makes you think a War For Oil would mean more oil?
Just like all of these other wars on concepts, the War For Oil means two things. Firstly, the oil is not for you, and the control of said oil is not for your benefit. Secondly, thanks to Hubbert's Peak, the war was probably already lost before it started.
(AC: posting from work)
In a lot of places student and working visas are subject to a wide range of conditions. If the same thing happened in Australia for example the person could be found to have failed the "character requirements" by being the subject of a police investigation and could then be immediately deported even if nothing unfavourable is found in the course of the investigation. It is likely that the UK has something similar in place.
As an atheist, I am a little disturbed how you said:
or even Atheists.Is this supposed to imply you'd EXPECT such behaviour from those of us with no belief in a higher power?! Or even consider it to be more likely?
Atheists are, in general, far LESS likely to tend towards extreme terrorist acts than religious people, for the simple fact that we are pretty well convinced that when we die it's GAME OVER - no afterlife - NOTHING is worth dying for. Plus of course, we are in general a more intelligent bunch (on the average... there are smart religious people, and dumb atheists, but averaged out, we're smarter) and fully realise that any kind of behaviour like this is pretty likely to get us killed, even if it's not a suicide attack specifically.
Oh that that's right... those damn Catholics... no wait...You weren't in Northern Ireland a decade or two back were you?
only the members of Islam can do that for them by changing the way they preach and practice their faith as a group.I consider most religions to be very dangerous things that can lead people to doing horrible things, but I don't consider Islam to be any more dangerous than Christianity. The religious texts are very similar (in fact, a lot of the religious texts are the same) and the standard teachings of peace and love are also identical. If you go to an average Islamic religious service, you'll hear exactly the same things being preached to the people there as if you went to an average Christian one. You could cherry pick and find an extremist Islamic teacher, and the same could be done for Christianity.
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This is a gross mistake anyway, but it's a quite a bit less 1984-ish than one might think from the summary. I disagree. It's an essential of any police state to get a good piece of the populace involved in helping you suppress the population. This was as true of the fictional state in 1984 as it has been of all real-world police states, it's just that in 1984 they had more technological help than is usual.
The fact that university staff was behind it is worse than if it were just the police. If the government is evil but the populace is pure then you have hope. If the populace is complicit in the evil then it becomes vastly harder to get rid of it.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
In some jurisdictions you'd be put on a list just for reading this post on slashdot.
Come to think of it, imagine what they'd do to you if you actually bothered to type a response and pressed sub...
Don't quote me on this.
Yo renounce your citizenship you clown, it happens all the time.
Oh please shut the fuck up. You don't want "personal freedom" as it really exists, because if you did you could just move to one of the many near lawless locations ALL OVER THE FUCKING WORLD where you could have all the freedom you like.
But that's REAL freedom, i.e., the unsafe, unclean, unruly, uncivilized kind. The kind of freedom people talk about wanting until they have it.
You want the safe, clean, happy freedom that so many people idealize, without appreciating that it's artificial and never lasts.
Long story short, move to Africa. You can get "freedom" out the ass, just don't be a crybaby when you realize the true cost.
Oddly, I see this argument all the time from religious folk, but have never met another atheist that would agree with this. This really seems to be the "religious person's view of the atheist mind" rather than the actual "atheist mind".
I am an atheist, and I don't want to die. The fact that there's no "judgement" doesn't comfort me in the least! I fully intend to live as long as I possibly can, and have as happy a life as I can during that time.
I believe the argument about there being no "judgement" allowing an atheist to do whatever he wants (including be very evil) fails to account for the fact that there's also no GOOD REASON to be very evil. Religious folk can say, "I did it because my deity commanded it" or similar. Atheists don't have that. So, the only reason to do bad things is to gain power. And most of us are clever enough to realise that this generally doesn't work. (note: MOST, not all - there have been some pretty nasty atheists in history, but that's because they're nasty PEOPLE, not because they're atheists)
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The problem is your definition of "freedom" is unworkable. If you feel you only have freedom when you can do whatever you want, well then you can never be free. The reason is that if we let you do whatever you want, we are going to be infringing on someone else's freedom. You see situations like that in dictatorships, like say North Korea. Kim Jong-il has essentially total personal freedom. He can do whatever he wants. However, the price his country pays is that they are all extremely oppressed for that. While the one man may be free, the rest of them aren't.
So, in actual free nations, we have to work towards a balance of freedoms. You have to make sure that one person's freedoms don't infringe on another person's freedoms. That way everyone can be free to do pretty much what they want, and not have to worry about others forcing their will on them.
If you can't accept that kind of freedom, well, then you are a very selfish individual.