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New Agreement May End the Cable Box
esocid clues us to news that Sony and the National Cable and Telecommunications Association have come to agreement on the way forward for two-way TV without set-top boxes. The actual agreement was not made public, pending review by other members of the Consumer Electronics Association, and as a result the coverage of the agreement is uniformly pretty incoherent. The background is that the NCTA and the CEA submitted competing proposals to the FCC on how to handle two-way, interactive TV services. None of the articles I turned up made clear what the future of the CableCard is to be. This was an interim solution to allow competition in set-top box manufacture, but its adoption has been plagued with problems. "Sony and the cable companies — Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Cox, Charter, Cablevision, and Bright House Networks — agreed to adopt: the Java-based 'tru2way' solution powered by CableLabs; new streamlined technology licenses; and new ways for all those involved to cooperate in the development of tru2way technology at CableLabs."
new streamlined technology licenses;
Engineer: Faster, cheaper, more reliable, more efficient.
Businessman: Slightly less annoying, but still entirely arbitrary, restrictions on how you can what you already paid for.
Next time you wonder "what the hell has gone wrong us as a species", ask yourself which of those two run the world.
Sorting Through the Analog to Digital TV Mess
Many Analog TV Watchers Aren't Aware of Upcoming Switchover
FCC Says Analog TV Lives Until 2012
Not that sort of two-way TV. This story discusses a sort of two-way TV where there can be commands sent by the viewer, for interactive applications or choosing a pay-per-view program for instance.
:)
In before Big Brother references!
without set-top boxes
Set-top boxes have been gone for ages..
flat-screen TVs are just too thin for that
-- LP-Research
A lot of cable companies rely on the ignorance of the average consumer to put cable boxes out there. Cable boxes are a way of insuring higher rates. If they have to have a box to watch TV, then the company can charge per box. There's more than one cable company that doesn't even have analog TV going over their cable anymore with lame excuses to the customer sighting imaginary technical reasons such as "you can't do regular analog cable once you deploy digital" or "The FCC says we have to do digital now" (that's broadcast, not cable). A lot of them refuse to do QAM, etc.... on the same basis so you have to pay for the proprietary box and lock in.
A standard is good for consumers, not for cable companies.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
It looks like those of you who wanted a brand-new Internet might just get it.
You guys actually *watch* TV when you have the internet??
Well, you have to get the two-way tech adopted by most before you can mandate it, then the web-cams can be added for Big Brother goodness later.
I guess I just don't see what the point of two-way TV is in the first place, but then I haven't had cable for over a decade now. If I don't want PPV, what else would 2-way TV give me that a simple digital recording of a TV show doesn't?
I'll be annoyed when my analog antenna stops working, but hopefully by then a digital antenna + tuner will be $20.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Seriously though... this opencable platform has some undeniable hacking potential. Replace a MythTV box with an opencable compatible media center application... in Java! Somebody should do up some perl bindings...
BLAM!
I have a strange suspicion that a standard decided upon by Sony and the cable companies will be good for no one...
I shudder to think what would constitute a hand sign to get to the playboy channel.
The history of the CableCard is long and confusing. Particularly because the cable companies don't want you to adopt it. Then they lose their cable box renting fee. 2truway is just the next step in the CableCard evolution.
Originally, CableCards only had one directional transmission capability. This prevented services such as on demand, pay per view, and guide data. At least, that's what the cable companies wanted you to think. In actuality, the hardware (developed by independent companies) for the cards supported 2-way transmissions. The hardware complied with the CableCard 2.0 specification but the software for each card did not. The cable companies didn't want manufacturers to use their own software in the boxes/televisions/DVRs that would be using the cable cards. No, the cable companies wanted them to use OpenCable Application Platform (OCAP). Of course this isn't an open platform at all.
Picture your Tivo now, with its great recording software. Compare that to the crappy software your cable company uses on their DVR. Well, the OCAP part of the CableCard 2.0 standard requires all hardware be running the cable company's software. In other words, your Tivo would have to be running Comcast/Cox/whoever's horrid interface instead of the standard one. At least, that's how I understand it.
Consumer electronics companies didn't like this at all. So they fought and protested, allowing the CableCard standard in general to slowly die. That's why most new TVs now don't even have card slots.
CableLabs eventually realized that this just wouldn't work. So, they decided "hey, let's just rename OCAP to something cooler." Thus, Tru2way was born from the remnants of OCAP, a subset of the CableCard 2.0 spec. The cable companies also lightened up on the licensing restrictions for the software. Now, the Tru2way standard is getting much more support. Why? I'm really not sure. All I know is that more television companies are saying they'll be adding support for it (and thus cablecards) in their upcoming television models.
I think that's a fairly accurate summary of the history of CableCard and tru2way. No, this will not replace CableCards. Actually, this is just another step in the process towards adopting them.
Frankly, my only concern is that I'm allowed to use my open source MythTV box with a CableCard in order to record shows off encrypted QAM channels like Discovery HD. Currently, I cannot do this due to the ridiculous certified media center PC and Vista requirement. If anyone knows a way around this, please tell me. The analog cutoff is looming and I don't want to lose my recording ability.
In before Big Brother references!
I don't know about the US, but over here the BBC make extensive use of it.
From any BBC channel you can get information such as the latest news, weather, and tv schedules by browsing a text based menu.
They also use it for large events such as The Olympics, and music festivals to allow you to choose what you want to be watching at the moment.
During Wimbledon for example you were able to pick which match you wanted to watch out of three or four different options.
How about on-demand services? It could be a fine way to counter the PVR market if you could watch any show, any time, but not be able to skip commercials.
It would be amusing to see all the people who claim they don't skip commercials on their Tivo come screaming out of the closet.
I already canceled my cable tv service, and life is just so much better without it. (no, I did not switch to FiOS TV or to satellite either) TV sucks more than an MMO.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
Yeah, just like people don't use HDMI...oh wait more and more do.
Cable boxes won't go away, but newer TV's and third party DVR's will finally be able to do two way communication with cable service. Nobody expects everyone to switch overnight but as more TV's supporting this standard are produced, fewer people will need cable boxes.
Let me know if you need to have anything else simple explained to you.
The parent really could use a bump to the top of the conversation. The bit about OCAP/tru2way is the critical bit of information out of this announcement.
When Comcast wins, we all lose. This agreement signifies that the CEA has gone ahead and finally agreed to CableLabs terms; compliant devices will have to run the local cable company's Java middleware. This severely limits what 3rd party cable tuners can do, it will allow manufacturers to add functionality that doesn't relate directly to manipulating the signal (e.g. playing back movies from a file server) but it will prevent manufacturers from offering anything that involves the signal (no custom guides, no additional recording options, no custom interface, etc). Basically cable TV is now a Java application in hardware enforced authentication chain - your cable company will dictate what you get to watch and how. If they (or the networks they partner with) decide you can't keep a recorded program forever for example, then their middleware can be set to enforce that, and there's nothing you can do.
Crappy middleware for all, freedom (both to record and to innovate) for none!
I do not have Digital Cable. The reason is I don't want to use a Digital cable box to get cable because I have a MythTV PVR and the cable box would ruin that. So I need to ask, is there a ATSC based Digital cable standard that my MythTV PVR can use to get the unencrypted Digital channels from the cable company? Is this availible as part of say, a VHS VCR?
The problem is far worse than 99.9% of the public realizes yet. Why? SDV (Switched Digital Video) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_digital_video
It is being rolled out even now, and creating chaos for users of cable cards, TiVo, Media Centers, Myth, etc. Why is this a nightmare? Because SDV is *INCOMPATIBLE* with *EVERYTHING* out there that doesn't belong to the cable company. I bought a new HD TiVo months ago and it worked great. I had access to everything I wanted, and in ways far superior to the Cox-rented "DVR". Then Cox suddenly, without warning, without TELLING anyone, without even training their support staff, rolled out SDV and all the new HD channels were suddenly unavailable to anyone that didn't have "approved" Cox-owned equipment.
I was FURIOUS! SDV totally defeats the ENTIRE purpose of cable cards. There was nothing TiVo could do about it. And I wasted countless hours on the phone with clueless "support" techs at Cox and with them coming to my house. Their only suggestion? Throw away all my equipment and rent the "wonderful" Cox "DVR". And after weeks of this nightmare, Cox suddenly stopped using SDV on the new HD channels and everything returned to normal. Why? Who knows? They wouldn't say. Perhaps a lot of people like me were complaining? (Every person using anything with a cable card was affected). Perhaps Cox even had problems with their own equipment.
But one thing is for sure, it is not going away... I am positive it will be back. Other cable companies are either experimenting with it now or have already ruined the experience of many of their customers by implementing it "permanently".
Supposedly TiVo is working with the cable companies to develop yet another "box" that would sit between the TiVo and the cable to address SDV. But how much will THAT cost? What other problems will it cause? And that does nothing at all for non-TiVo users.
The real kicker is that Cox didn't even really NEED to implement SDV, there was plenty of bandwidth to add all the new HD channels (as they have now proved). And if they were running low on bandwidth, why didn't they put only some of the obscure/(IMHO "stupid") channels on SDV, not things like History Channel, National Geographic, Discover Channel, etc?
My advice? Email your cable company's PR departments NOW and tell them you do not want SDV, especially in its current form. And if nothing else, they should act responsibly and tell all current AND FUTURE customers, EXACTLY what SDV means.
Seriously, how is this a win? I've had a perfectly adequate TV for years and years now, and three or four different cable boxes in the same time frame. Each cable box has had better features that I wanted, but I've never felt the urge to replace my TV. What's so great about a system that would force me to replace BOTH devices when I only wanted to upgrade one? I mean, it would cost me a lot of money--
Ah. I get it now.
Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.
Lots of stuff runs Java just fine. Your DVD player runs Java. You should worry less about it being Java based and worry more about what the Java programmers have made it do at the behest of companies known to install rootkits, intercept selected packets, and in general spy on everyone.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
And tracking what non-pay channels you watch.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
That was then, now it's about control. I've been out of the Biz long enough and my NDA's have expired so I can talk about it.
Cable companies DESPERATELY want to force cable boxes on everyone for 3 main reasons.
1 - it allows them to cut their installer workforce by 2/3rd's. if you can leave the CATV connection to every home live and use cable boxes to disconnect service you save way more money and can increase profits and executive salaries.
2 - It allows demographic data collection. right now they pay Nielsen and Scarborough for Demo data. this is expensive and old data (last month, Last quarter). By forcing the use of cable boxes I can gather and monitor demographic data hour by hour and minute by minute. I can tell advertisers that 65,000 people in the #23 market saw their ad. This allows my sales people to pressure the customer (not you, people that BUY ad's are the customer you are the product) to buy more.
3 - Content protection. By going cable box only it eliminates these damned Tivo's and other PVR's thjat allow commercial skip. Fast Forward is OK because you still view the commercial and the company's name get's imprinted. with more and more content companies buying voting shares in cable companies they also want to protect their assets from you damned consumers.
THOSE are the only reason they want the cable box forced upon everyone and in that order. They will save a CRAPLOAD by getting rid of a huge chunk of their workforce. and then being able to generate their own demographic data instead of buying it is next in line.
every bit of it is about making them more money and none of it is about you.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
In my experience, that means that 'tru2way' technology will be a stReaming pile of shit.
There, I fixed it for you.
Really, WHO CARES if fewer or more people need cable boxes. What was ever
the bother anyways? The real problem is that all of this BS is making it
impossible for 3rd parties to interesting recording devices. This whole
DRM nonsense has effectively killed off the VCR or any device like it
with few exceptions.
It creates too much of a bother and an expense for young innovators with
strange new ideas that might scare content providers or content owners.
The path between "cable" and the TV should be unencrypted.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
This isn't entirely true. Cable companies still rent out the cable cards, so they don't lose the fee. The real reason they don't want you to adopt it is that they want you to be trapped in their "interactive TV" system, instead of seeing somebody else's screens.
This also misses the big point that most people miss when it comes to CableCARD 2.0. Specifically that there is no reason for the card to support bi-directional communications for any of the services that the cable companies claim it will be used for. Switched digital video, video on demand, pay-per-view, etc... Those can all be supported with any device at all doing the transmitting. Since the CableCARD is supposedly a decryption device primarily, there's no reason that outgoing communications need to pass through the card. This is especially true since in a CableCARD 2.0 bi-directional device, the DOCSIS hardware is in the CableCARD compliant device, and not in the card itself. The only reasons to have a bi-directional CableCARD are so the cable company can choose what data to send back (things a third party box might not choose to send, like what channels you're watching, etc..), and to lock you into their screens. A bi-directional CableCARD is essentially a PCMCIA form-factor cable box.
This will never happen. The cable industry has tricked the FCC into a back-door in the integration ban. You will have a cable box, but it will be tiny, and unlike old-style cable boxes they can now also dictate what you can attach it to. This is why this new spec is suddenly getting more support. They are claiming more control over their customer's use of their signal, while claiming openness.
You could do this with 70's era technology.
There's no need to make it something java-like. The
technical requirements for this stuff is really quite
basic.
No, all of this is just an excuse to lock up the path
to the TV so that no other devices can sit in there and
add value to the customer.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
> In the space of one of those analog channels, we can push 6 SD digital channels and 2-3 HD channels down the pipe
Great... 6x more CRAP or 3x more CRAP at high resolution.
Neither of these is anything I care about as a consumer. I am not convinced that
anyone else really cares about this either. Although it probably is easy to "wow
the rubes" with absurd claims about how many channels you have.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
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This has been in the works for a long time.
Most of the cable box vendors are already standardized on DOCSIS3.0 and OCAP. OCAP is an OpenCable Application Platform that is based on Java and most cable boxes already are using it, this is why they are so darn slow when pulling up channel guides and flipping channels, and let's not forget the occasional crash.
Cable TV people don't do anything fast or radical, I don't know if I'd call them conservative as much as lethargic.
So now the marketing people have invented a new pretend technical term "tru2way" and we are supposed to believe they have done something innovative, while really they are just starting to roll out 5 year old technology. Yawn...
These cable boxes really are terrible.
At some point far enough out in the future we will just have a flat TCP/IP network for everything and everyone will live on the same even playing field.
Then I will be able to watch Star Wars IX on opening day using 3D video goggles in 4K Digital Cinema resolution on my Google IPTV Set top box streaming live in real time.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso