KDE 4.1 Beta 1 Released

appelza contributed a link to Tuesday's announcement of the next step toward KDE 4.1: "The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users. KDE 4.1 beta 1 is available as binary packages for a wide range of platforms, and as source packages. KDE 4.1 is due for final release in July 2008." I haven't used KDE much for the past few years, but the screenshots of a "grown-up" plasma are enough to make me correct that.

Comments

Re:Ob

[pak9rabid]

Does it run on linux? More importantly, does it not rely on KDE3 apps anymore?

Re:Thank god

[Tubal-Cain]

EDE?

Re:Ob

[wizardforce]

depends on what linux distro you're using. so far there are packages for mandriva, opensuse, debian and fedora. the release has also been ported to windows and mac with a set of packages for kubuntu coming up in a little bit however you can compile from source if you really really need to have the beta on other distros/OSes

At least its getting updated

[pacroon]

I think that besides whats already been stated about the obvious nifts 'n gigglez with eyecandy, it looks a little less "overdone" than the previous ones. I'm not a big KDE fan myself, but in this particular period in time, I'm mostly happy that large free applications are being updated at all. :)

That's a fast /.

[Yoooder]

So there wasn't even a comment posted (even after a refresh) before the site was slashdotted and nearly dead.

Impressive!

Re:Thank god

[ArcherB]

No. Must be the CLI.

I dunno....

[mpapet]

My concern is not so much the desktop environment itself.

How many KDE3-guified apps are going to switch over to KDE4? I don't expect to see very many this year, but next year should be very telling regarding the desktop's popularity.

Re:I dunno....

[Tanktalus]

I dunno ... I'm running kde 4.0.4 right now, and I have to say that while there are apps that are prone to crashing (darned open-source imperative to release early and release often, but, hey, I knew that before electing to install it), I do love what they've done with many things. A few things stick out in my mind: konqueror - VASTLY improved, okular - replaces kpdf and can read MS's "compiled html" (.chm) format (which is helpful for me), the composite effects are not all just eye candy - things like dimming background windows help me focus on the foreground application and pushing my mouse into a corner of the screen (default: top-left) to show all the windows on the desktop (or on all desktops) is HUGELY helpful.

That's just some of the KDE3 apps that are already ported to KDE4. Even extras like ktorrent have already been ported to KDE4, which is nice.

I really miss the PIM stuff (kmail, knode, kalarm, kaddressbook, etc), so I'm really looking forward to seeing KDE 4.1 in the main Gentoo portage tree, even masked, as soon as possible.

I expect to see MANY kde3 apps moved to KDE4 this year.

Heck, I was running the KDE4 version of ktorrent on KDE 3.5.8 earlier this year (yes, I know, 3.5.9 is out), so it's not like it's entirely a problem to have these apps coexist. This provides apps the opportunity to port to KDE4 without needing their users to actually use KDE4 as their desktop.

Re:I dunno....

[novakyu]

How many KDE3-guified apps are going to switch over to KDE4? I don't know about how much things are different under the hood, but as far as GUI goes, QT4 has compatibility objects and methods for programs transitioning from QT3, if the developer doesn't want to re-implement everything with QT4.

Except for very old, stable programs that are not being updated anymore, I don't see what would stop someone from switching over to QT4 (and presumably KDE4).

Re:I dunno....

[HappySmileMan]

Amarok, Konversation, K3b, KDevelop and Kontact are main blockers in this regard, all are being ported.

Amarok and KDevelop already have Alpha/Beta releases out, and should be done within a couple of months I think (original plan was to coincide with 4.1 but not sure if they will), Kontact will be a part of 4.1.

Konversation and K3b are going to be ported, but I don't know when

Re:I dunno....

[3p1ph4ny]

FYI: kchmviewer does the same thing with .chm files in 3.5.9. I used it a lot this year and it's a great app (tabbed browsing, etc.)

Re:I dunno....

[krelian]

looking forward to seeing KDE 4.1 in the main Gentoo portage tree How long does it take to compile the beast?

Re:I dunno....

[Max Littlemore]

kmail, knode, kalarm, kaddressbook, etc

Probably been said before by others, but the biggest reason I don't use kde is the kutesy put a "k" in everything naming konvention. Not trying to troll here, it's one of those things that shits me enough for me to not want to install it at all, regardless of how far it's kome.

Re:I dunno....

[Tanktalus]

On an AMD Phenom Quad Core 2.5GHz processor with 8GB RAM? The amount of KDE 4.0.4 that I have only took a couple hours. :-P 1:46:53, to be exact.

(No games, no koffice, etc., mostly just the core system.)

Re:I dunno....

[Tanktalus]

To each his own, I guess. However, do you not think it says a lot about you that you care more about the superficiality of the name of the software you are evaluating than the actual usefulness and productiveness of it? Not saying you would be productive with it, just that you're evaluating it on something superficial instead of something significant.

Personally, I find it useful to tell whether something targets kde vs gnome vs being agnostic. The leading 'g' in an app won't stop me from trying it, though the leading 'k' often piques my interest first as it's more likely to mesh with the rest of my system.

Re:I dunno....

[Dionysus]

I take it you have the same problem with all the x-applications (xeyes, xpdf, xscreensavers...), gnome applications, gnu applications etc etc

Re:other ob.

[jps25]

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop. Not for those using Debian...

Re:Ob

[ArcherB]

Does it run on linux? I tried to run the 4.0 version on Linux (Linux Mint 4.0). I have to say, NO, it does not run on Linux.

Re:Thank god

[Tubal-Cain]

The CLI is not a Desktop Environment, per se.

Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[ryanisflyboy]

I am not a window manager guru by any stretch. I use Gnome since that is what a lot of my friends use, and at the time I made the choice KDE didn't seem as capable. Now I look at KDE and get the impression that Gnome is falling behind in breadth and depth of features, configurability, and ease of use. Is that an accurate view of the situation? If so, why isn't Gnome able to keep up?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I look at KDE and get the impression that Gnome is falling behind in breadth and depth of features, configurability, and ease of use. It always had been. I'm a GNOME user who remembers the years of file chooser abuse by the GTK devs. I'm using GNOME because the whole thing feels more "solid", I like nautilus better than Konq, and that Firefox uses gtk.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[domatic]

The GNOME guys idea of user friendly is strip features and configurability rather than refining features, picking good defaults, and laying out dialogs for ease of use by normal users and having tastefully accessible extra options for the particular and demanding power user. And no guys, clicking around in gconf which may not even respect those customizations on the next login doesn't cut it.

Historically KDE has fallen down by making configurability difficult for casual users and a pain for power users but at least power users could eventually get things the way they want them. I read good things about how KDE4 is going with that but have yet to see it for myself as it was a mass of regressions from KDE 3.5 the last time I tried it. Once it acquires polish and forward ported features and apps from 3.5, I'll be switching too.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Frekko]

As a long time KDE user I can tell you that this is not true. Not that KDE 4 isn't very impressive (I love, that's why I use it) but these two projects are developed in parallel. They watch each other as hawks and most of the features are in fact quite similar. Yes, there are some differences, but hey they are different products.

Love the fact that we have competition on the desktop on Linux. It's our greatest blessing!

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Chineseyes]

Taking the lead of what exactly? Gnome has followed a trend of removing features and giving users few options while KDE has been giving users more features and more options.

Some people feel that completely removing options is a good idea because they are looking to target corporations and limiting options makes support easier, but I have always felt that KDE's approach is much better. Give the users all the options they could imagine and then let them decide what is best. With KDE's approach you can always have some sort of locked down "corporate default" setting that would make support easier but with Gnome's approach what do you do when a user wants a feature that has been removed?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Hoplite3]

I use KDE, but I don't think Gnome has fallen behind. I'd say both are about at the same level.

If anything, the big tragedy is all of the stuff that's now done by KDE/Gnome that should be done by non-X related systems. Wifi association, laptop power stuff, suspend/resume functionality, and so on... all of these things are now handled through Gnome and KDE subsystems to some degree, rather than handled by a non-X related program that communicates to some graphical widget.

There's been a big loss of separation between parts. It's a shame.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[theJavaMan]

I would say it's the design philosophy. Gnome says "Do this our way, because it is better" (see the ok-cancel button debate). KDE says "You can do it this way, but you can also configure your own way".

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[cozziewozzie]

The KDE team has been rewriting/porting basically everything over to Qt4, which was a gargantuan task.

During this time, they used the opportunity to fix some long-standing issues and redesign some key components. Things were broken and in development for a long time, while the stable release 3.5.x went into bugfixing mode. Gnome was making steady improvements to their 2.x codebase this entire time.

KDE is only now starting to reap the fruits of this effort. The real power of the platform will become more obvious in the coming years.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[QCompson]

Gnome has always been behind KDE when it comes to features and configurability. Not anymore. Have you tried KDE4?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Chineseyes]

Desktop icons were deprecated in favor of a folder view applet, that you can have on your desktop, so you can still have desktop icons on your desktop via the applet.

From Aaron Seigo's blog:

"Hey!" I hear you say, "I see icons on that desktop!" That's quite right. (And, I must say, you are quite observant today. ;) So what was a mumbling about earlier then when I said the icons were gone?

Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik Höglund. It can view any folder you want, including the desktop folder. You can also set a filter, making it possible to, for instance, view just images or whatever. It uses KIO so you can view remote folders as well. You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. It lines everything up in a nice grid and uses the same drawing routines that Dolphin, Konqueror, KRunner and others use from kdelibs for the icons.

As you can see they didn't get rid of desktop icons, they made having desktop icons BETTER.

Image of icons on the desktop via the applet Original Blog Post

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[cloakable]

I don't know about that. On my laptop, suspend/power management is done through dbus to a daemon backend (I don't know what that is). Networking is done through dbus too, using the NetworkManager daemon and KNetworkManager.

But I agree, more stuff like this would be nice.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Niten]

No, there's a huge difference between removing options and leaving advanced under-the-hood features, well, under the hood.

GNOME takes very much the same approach as OS X here. For instance, in order to let users adjust how Spaces handles new windows popping up in different workplaces, Apple didn't throw yet another checkbox into some huge and unnavigable control panel. Rather, they left it as an option to be configured with defaults write com.apple.Dock ..., because 95% of users won't want to change this behavior, and those who do won't have any trouble figuring out defaults write anyway.

Likewise, a lot of obscure GNOME / Metacity / GTK+ configuration options that aren't wasting space on a control panel somewhere are still accessible through GConf or a separate configuration file. I'm an "advanced" user, and I like this because it gives me less junk to hunt through when I want to change something in the GUI; and I know many "beginner" users who appreciate GNOME for the very same reason.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[cloakable]

It does that? Nifty, that'll make groupings of icons much easier.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[PitaBred]

Naah. They're handled through freedesktop.org interfaces. NetworkManager, powernowd, all that just provide hooks that KDE and Gnome take advantage of with their controller widgets. It's the same underpinnings, just a different fascia depending on the DE.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[harry666t]

Icons are not going away. Fact, in 4.1 you will have them only as in a Plasma applet, but with 4.2 they'll be coming back in their full glory, but as a part of a more modularized and flexible desktop. RTFA before you rant.

Oh, wait, this is /.

Nevermind

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Hoplite3]

Ah, but set the rules for what happens when you close the laptop lid in Gnome, then fire up KDE and close the lid ... the result is the default for KDE.

Likewise, log in to a VT rather than an X session. NetworkManager won't associate with any known basepoint around at login. nmtool doesn't even have the ability to force a connection.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[HalAtWork]

with Gnome's approach what do you do when a user wants a feature that has been removed?

You write a basic task-oriented application. You could argue that Gnome is a more modular approach while KDE is a more monolithic approach.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[SanityInAnarchy]

They tell me that most of the features are still there, just in config files (without GUI dialogs).

They also tell me that a lot is coming back in 4.1, and that 4.2 will be fully ready to take over from kde3.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[scorp1us]

Well, KDE uses Qt. Qt is commercial, and has commercial funding in addition to its opensource side. I've always suggested that commercial corporations can have better direction than undirected opensource scratch-an-itch development. (That is not to say that all opensource development is scratch-an-itch. I'd never be so naive.) Really, KDE4 is just riding on the back of Qt4, which tries to make money by getting commercial developers to buy it. And I think that's where it is different from GTK/GNOME. GTK/GNOME doesn't have that aspect. I also think Having Qt as C++ helps, where GTK is more C-based (though there are wrappers) But with Qt having the core toolkit in C++, means there are no C developers, and the toolkit itself is capable of innovating faster. Everything on top of Qt is a wrapper, but your inheritance doesn't come into play until gtkmm, meaning that you have to worry about what level it gets put into.

I'm no GTK expert, but I am an avid Qt4 user.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Ever since they started on KDE 4, they seem to have decided to run the entire project as if it were a perpetual beta. Something doesn't work? Rewrite it! Can't finish the feature on time? Release anyway! And because of this, it should have been called a beta. They tell me that 4.2 will finally be ready...

Unless they go back to their previous development method where they actually gave a shit about quality, I'm afraid KDE will plummet in popularity. I've already switched away from it. Well, I find that 3.5 is still more usable than anything else, so I'm staying with that until 4 becomes usable. If it never does, I'll write my own.

No, I'm not kidding about that last part. Probably start with DWM or something -- I don't need that much out of a WM/desktop environment. Just a few more features to Fluxbox or Compiz and I'll be happy.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[__aabvlw4075]

I've been using linux since 1999, and in that time I don't recall there ever being a moment when it would make any sense to say that KDE didn't seem as capable as GNOME. Some people prefer GNOME's appearance, design philosophy, or set of apps to KDE's -- and vice versa -- but when it comes to capabilities, KDE has always (at least since '99) been the clear winner. In fact, lack of capabilities is GNOME's selling point -- less capabilities means a simpler interface that many people prefer.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[joeslugg]

Yes. I think my biggest pet peeve about GNOME, other than button issues is instant apply.

So very annoying (to me).

If someone knows how to make this go away in GNOME, I'm all ears.
If KDE ever started adopting it, I'd be very sad.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[HappySmileMan]

Which, by the time KDE4.1 is released, will be able to look however you want, even transparent and maximised :O, so you can use it the exact same way you always have.

Personally I'd prefer the box, not full screen, but preferably with a slightly transparent background, that way I can have plasma applets on most of screen without icons getting in way when I add something or if I put too much icons there.

Now you can have it function the way you want to keep it. And I can have it the way I want it.
Or would you prefer your way to be my only choice?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[HappySmileMan]

because 95% of users won't want to change this behavior, and those who do won't have any trouble figuring out defaults write anyway.

Well when I was using GNOME there were many things I wanted to change, and I had trouble figuring out how to change them, eventually I managed to change half of them and was told the other half were impossible to change "because people generally don't want to change that" or some shit like that.

I'm sorry for not figuring out GNOME, but somehow on KDE I can change anything I want (to be fair, 4.0 is missing a lot of configuration dialogs for plasma, but that's temporary, they'll be back in 4.1 or 4.2, which I can't say for the GNOME ones)

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[christurkel]

Gnome is fine just fine the way it is. Clean, easy to use. Gnome developers know when to quit.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[jadrian]

First of all, these are not window managers but desktop environments. Window manager only manages windows.

I don't know when you made your choice, but what do you mean with KDE less capable than gnome? KDE has been ahead in most fronts, in term of technology (like kio slaves and kparts), user options, and quality of applications (like amarok and k3b). What exactly can you do with Gnome that KDE is not capable of?

Gnome cannot keep up because gtk sucks. Really. Qt (used by kde) is miles ahead of gtk (used by gnome), just look how much each of them as evolved in the last 5 years! Qt provides an amazing foundation on which KDE builds, no need to keep reinventing the wheel, you got Qt developers taking off much of the development weight off the kde team, Qt provides for much faster and safer development than Qt.

I really believe the Gnome team has a problem... The reason why there is no Gnome 3 in sight is not that they prefer incremental development. Is simply that they don't have an alternative. In KDE 4 moving to Qt 4.x was a big part of the motivation. With Gnome... they'd be using the same old gtk 2. When KDE 4 finally becomes stable and feature complete (my guess would be KDE 4.3), there will be an immense difference between the 2 desktops, a difference that can be measured in years of development.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[theJavaMan]

But the thing they replaced it with, is way cooler :)

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[westyvw]

Gnome isnt falling behind, its always been behind. Gnome drives me nuts because there just isnt power there (well its getting better). KDE, configurable but not easily configurable, yet with KIO slaves, seemless interaction, clicking options up the wazoo, shortcuts, drag and drop options, menu items, linking, I could go on for days. Gnome was like a sleepy, well Gnome. Not much going on, maybe dependable at best.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[10Ghz]

You still have desktop-icons in 4.1. Just because you keep on whining about this issue, does not mean that your whining is based on a real problem.

And before you start whining about the "big black box".... I would say that is up to the theme you are using. Don't like big black boxes? then use some other theme. And how about actually USING the software before whining how bad it is? Sheesh....

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[10Ghz]

KDE 4.1 has completely removed the ability to put files or icons on the desktop. No they haven't, and claiming that they have only makes you an idiot. For starters, the new method is more flexible and powerful. Previously, you had a desktop-folder that had all the stuff that was in your desktop. This new way allows you to have several such folders which contents is displayed on the desktop. You can also have filters that only show certain type of files, instead of shoving all the files in the folder.

In the future you could have an automated system that changes according to the app you are using, You could have a plasmoid that displays a contents of a folder. Then you fire up a video-editor (for example), and the plasmoid switches to showing your video-files, or your project-folder or something like that.

The old way (which is still used by other systems) is really about "you can do it this way, and only this way".

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[qbast]

I would not call it 'riding on the back'. Trolltech is getting as much as it gives - lots of testing, constant stream of fixes flowing back, even whole components like WebKit and Phonon. They also have KDE as their biggest showcase of Qt abilities.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[sydneyfong]

Any examples?

I've been using GNOME for years, and they really lacked options when GNOME2 began, but things generally got better (very) gradually, and these days the options I see are usually the options I want changed. So I'm curious (definitely not here to start a flamewar ;-p)... what options are you talking about which can't be changed?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[JasterBobaMereel]

GNOME says do it the default way (but you can change it if you really want to)

KDE says here's the default but do you want to do it one of these other twenty ways instead ....

Both work but GNOME is less intimidating to novices (and the GNOME philosophy is that people who want to change things will work out how ....)

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Almahtar]

Here's one I've been seeking for about a year - mouse wheel over the desktop switches virtual desktops.

Interesting

[bobwrit]

Well it looks good(google images search). At least they're not relesing a new 1.0 incremant every time a developer sneezes.

Re:Links Please

[mpapet]

I'd love to apt-get it on my Debian Lenny boxes. Can you post sources.list entries please?

Re:Thank god

[junglee_iitk]

JWM

Re:Thank god

[ArcherB]

The CLI is not a Desktop Environment, per se. I run it on my desktop. Is it a notebook environment? :-)

(and I could be wrong, but I believe the proper term is GUI or WM.

Nope! Looks like I really am wrong. You are correct, sir!)

Re:Ob

[wizardforce]

if you're trying to use the debian port, know that Linux Mint being based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian is no longer close enough to use Debian's experimental branch packages. for an experimental beta like this, you would probably be better off either compiling from source [pain in the arse if you ask me] or installing the debian port on debian through a virtual machine of course any of the other OS/port combos would likely work too.

Am I Missing Something?

[rhartness]

I'm looking at the screen shots and I'm wondering with a couple of them-- What's up with the jaggies? Is it really that difficult to implement a little anti-aliasing on the edges of the apps when you apply certain effects?

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[Fez]

I can't get to TFA to check the screenshots, but it may be the same as Gnome in my case. On one of my systems I have running Ubuntu 8.04, some compiz effects have jagged edges. It is especially noticeable with the Wobbly Windows effect.

I may have an option turned off, something misconfigured, or perhaps AA is only used for higher-end video cards than I have.

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[bersl2]

What video card(s)/driver(s) are you using?

Mesa doesn't support AA IIRC.

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[Fez]

On that box I'm using Nvidia's binary drivers on an NV18-based GeForce4 MX440.

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[Fez]

Hate to reply to myself but there is another detail: I am using the nvidia-glx driver, as that card did not seem to take to well to the most recent set of drivers. I might try it again, though.

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[SanityInAnarchy]

From what I remember, Beryl (the Compiz fork that everyone used until it was merged again) never supported antialiasing. I don't remember what the reason was, but I suspect that there's something that makes it tricky to apply these effects to a desktop (versus a game).

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[Fez]

It doesn't bother me at all, so I haven't given it much concern.

It may also chew up too much CPU or GPU time to use it on a desktop, more than any perceived benefit.

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[Fez]

Looks like I'll be trying this tomorrow:

Appendix E. OpenGL Environment Variable Settings, which was referred to by this thread, which happened to be the first hit for "compiz anti-aliasing" in Google. Go figure. :)

Re:Thank god

[Anonymous Coward]

Emacs!

Re:other ob.

[zarr]

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop. It is. Whether or not the majority of computer users are running it is irrelevant.

Re:Nothing new

[Tubal-Cain]

x.5 has more features than x.0 or x.1. Who would have guessed? 4.x will eventually outdo 3.5's features. Just not 4.0 or 4.1.

Not that you shouldn't stick with 3.5 if you feel that best serves your needs.

Beta?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1"

What?! The first beta of beta?

Re:Beta?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

"The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1"

What?! The first beta of beta?

Naw. The Department of Redundancy Department got its hands on the press release.

Re:Beta?

[Jesus_666]

Actually, they included rounded corners and JavaScript, which allowed them to add gratuitous AJAX. The result is KDE 4.1 2.0 Beta. Since it's not entirely done yet and they're still testing they released a beta version, KDE 4.1 2.0 Beta Beta.

Re:Beta?

[Fri13]

Did you miss the dot after "KDE 4.1"? ;-)

Re:Beta?

[wasge]

Are 2 separate sentences: ([1])The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. ([2])Beta 1 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[zapakh]

Is this is the release that has no more desktop icons? Did you read the rest of that page?

Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik HÃglund. It can view any folder you want, including the desktop folder. You can also set a filter, making it possible to, for instance, view just images or whatever. It uses KIO so you can view remote folders as well. You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. It lines everything up in a nice grid and uses the same drawing routines that Dolphin, Konqueror, KRunner and others use from kdelibs for the icons.

You can have 0, 1 or more of these folder views in your plasma, all viewing different (or the same, I suppose) folders. You can put them on different activity areas (aka "desktop containments") as well.

In the future we'll have a little label in the folderview telling you which folder you are looking at, it will turn into an icon with a menu listing in horizontally constrained containments (e.g. panels), it will be collapsible on the desktop with a single click (it's already resizable, rotatable and removable) and you will be able to use it as a containment itself.

That last bit is important: it means that you can have an Old Skool(tm) desktop with an icon mess if that's what you really, really want. So don't bother with that flame, nobody has anything to complain about. ;) Nothing about "no more desktop icons"; just that the desktop-icon concept has been reformulated as an instance of something more general and configurable.

Re:other ob.

[zeromorph]

Or BSD desktop?

*ducks*

Re:Ob

[ArcherB]

if you're trying to use the debian port, know that Linux Mint being based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian is no longer close enough to use Debian's experimental branch packages. for an experimental beta like this, you would probably be better off either compiling from source [pain in the arse if you ask me] or installing the debian port on debian through a virtual machine of course any of the other OS/port combos would likely work too. Well, in my case, "Runs" can be measured in terms of degree. Sure, it launched and I was able to put a few widgets (or whatever) on my desktop. I could even launch an app or two before the whole thing fell apart. At one point, I was even able to drag my desktop wallpaper around the desktop as if it were a giant icon.

I am using the what appears to be Kubuntu repo's btw:
http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-members-kde4/ubuntu/

Re:Links Please

[wizardforce]

Debian has KDE 4.1beta1 in the experimental branch. debian unstable and experimental should satify the requirements for KDE4.1: eg.
deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ experimental main non-free contrib
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ experimental main non-free contrib

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[Hatta]

That would be the best thing ever. Desktop icons are an abomination. I find myself unable to use them with proper discipline, and my desktop becomes a complete and utter mess. All I can do is use a WM that doesn't support them (fluxbox). I might actually have to check out kde4 now.

Re:One word

[dotancohen]

Are you not aware that Qt4 uses less resources than Qt3? KDE4 is therefore less resource intensive than KDE3 (Or at least will be when the KDE3 apps are rewritten for KDE4. Until then, both Qt3 and Qt4 must be loaded).

Re:Ob

[jamstar7]

I gave it a shot on Hardy. Couldn't get Plasma to run stable, so I went back to 3.5.x.

Wake me up when 4.1 is stable.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:One word

[Frekko]

And here is a memory usage test written by a gnome guy a couple of years back for KDE3. Gnome and KDE use more or less the same amount of memory: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/kdevsgnome.html

So unless our troll is using emacs or windowmaker or something like that for his "desktop environment" he should take his anonymous coward business elsewhere.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[hemna]

I completely disagree. I put many frequently used icons on my desktop as it speeds up my access to them. My hand is already on the mouse and it just takes 1 click to lauch/use said application if I am able to put an icon on the desktop.

Now in kde4.1 I have to have a big huge ugly black box around my icons...for no reason. I have used KDE for years over gnome, but this change will make me take a look at gnome again. It's a bad decision forcing users to work in a specific way without being able to configure it....Sounds a lot like M$ to me.

I'm sorry...no desktop icons for you! Desktop icons...bad....big black box...good.

Re:other ob.

[garett_spencley]

Feel free to mod this redundant or OT but I just ordered a Dell Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu and I feel really good about it :)

My wife and I have been talking about me getting a laptop for the last 4 years since I work from home, so this is going to give me a lot more mobility. I may finally be able to take a vacation. Anyway I really didn't want to pay the MS Tax and at the same time I wanted to send the message that I want Linux. It's a little ironic that this comes the same day /. posts a story about Dell being hammered in court for false advertising but I really don't care. I've been using Linux since '97/'98 and this is the first time I've bought a computer that's had Linux pre-installed and I can't even begin to tell you how good that feels.

This really IS the year of Linux on the desktop even if most people still don't give a flying fsck.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[Hatta]

I'd be pretty surprised if you couldn't theme the icon box to be the same color as the desktop so it's not visible.

In fluxbox, I just use the slit instead of desktop apps. There are plenty of app launcher dock apps to use. They take a little more effort to set up than just dragging an icon onto the desktop, but that makes them harder for me to abuse. A feature, IMHO.

Re:Important Caveats

[Jesus_666]

Actually, KDE 4.1 is what the average user considers to be "KDE 4". 4.0 was mainly the technical basis on which the actual GUI would be built.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[clampolo]

Gnome has a reputation for being more stable than KDE. On the downside it doesn't have as many features as KDE. (I'm on Gnome, I'm jealous of those sexy screenshots.)

Kind of makes sense that with most of the money coming from business they would rather have something more solid than feature-rich. But this is just a guess on my part.

Re:other ob.

[V!NCENT]

Although many will think you might be joking, this might in fact be true. When Wine hits 1.0 (within a month?) major apps will work (Photoshop, MS Office, etc.) and Wine will have two series of releases: stable (regressions are a thing in the past!) and unstable (major changes). In my county (The Netherlands) Linux laptops are now the 'must-haves' on the 'front page' in folders of the giant PC retailers. MS is going to release the new SP for Office 2007 with out-of-the-box ODF support. Support for hardware is about to hit the same height where Windows is today. OGG files are now on every CD I have bought for the last year or so and my Samsung MP3 player supports it... and the list goes on and on...

So... is this it? Is 2008 going to be the year of the Linux desktop? It probably will, because all signs are pointing at that direction...

KDE3 replacement finally?

[otis wildflower]

Huzzah! I've been fixin' to upgrade.. When will this be pushed to stable for kde-redhat RPMs?

Re:Ob

[harry666t]

Sure. And on Mac OS X and on Windows too. And even on BSD (although I heard that it is dying).

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[Abcd1234]

Yes... now you have a big, black box that has to be as big as the area you want icons in. Wow... that's so much more awesome. :)

IMHO, any change like this should at least make it possible to mirror the old way of doing things, in case people like it. Me, I like folders on my desktop... I can put handy things there within easy reach... heck, the whole desktop applet thing is really just an extension of that, and it seems pretty popular to me.

So the question for me is, why not have their cool icon area thinger, but make it possible to have it a) transparent, and b) occupy the whole desktop. Then you can use it as you see fit... emulate the old way (transparent, maximized, and possibly omnipresent), or fiddle around with novel configurations. Seems like an easy change that would make everyone happy.

Re:Important Caveats

[PitaBred]

4.0 was advertised as a "base" platform for application developers and bleeding-edge adopters, a feature-freeze for the KDE 4.0 frameworks, not necessarily a feature-complete desktop environment. Was there somewhere or someone that said otherwise? If so, they should be slapped with a trout.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[V!NCENT]

I thought KDE was dropping the entire 'K-thing'.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[SiChemist]

Gnome has a reputation for being more stable than KDE. On the downside it doesn't have as many features as KDE. (I'm on Gnome, I'm jealous of those sexy screenshots.)

Reputation for stability among whom? Gnome users? ;-) Seriously, I've been using KDE for years and never had any serious stability problems.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[halivar]

I kan't stand it, either, komrade.

Re:Important Caveats

[lattyware]

Yeah, when KDE4.0 was released, they basically said look to KDE4.1 for our first proper release.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, you COULD just disable icons on the desktop instead of throwing out the baby with the water. :)

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[carnalforge]

1. Let us disable the underlined letters in UI elements that signify the accelerators And how is one supposed to know what combiantion to use for accelerators? Mind reading interface?

Re:other ob.

[carnalforge]

Those are waiting for GNU Emacs D.E. to run under GNU hurd, forgot?

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Important Caveats

[StormReaver]

KDE 4.0 was never intended for mainstream use, but rather as the first implementation of the new KDE libraries that allowed developers to begin porting their KDE 3.x applications to KDE 4. As such, KDE 4.0 was largely unusable. However, its goals (the main porting effort) were achieved, so it was considered a success.

KDE 4.1 is supposed to be the first KDE 4 version usable by real people. There was a lot of space between 4.0 and actual usability; but the developers have been making rapid progress, and KDE 4.1 seems good in the article, so I'm allowing myself a bit of optimism that it might have enough of 3.5's functionality to be useful -- especially if I can uninstall Dolphin without trashing the rest of the desktop.

Re:other ob.

[carnalforge]

Yes, having an unix underneath a nice graphical desktop environment.

Re:Debian Lenny How-to kde4

[mpapet]

Warning, if KDE3 is your working desktop, you may be wise to copy ~/.kde to restore it if KDE4 doesn't work for you.

1. use the url's above minus the [bracketed] words in /etc/apt/sources.list
2. Set pin priority. I borrowed from http://wiki.debian.org/Kde4schroot I also prioritized a couple of packages to be sure they didn't get upgraded. (mythtv-frontend is my biggie)
3. apt-get update
4. aptitude install -t experimental kde4 (this might take a while to calculate a solution that works for your system)
5. Restart X.

Big thanks to the author of the kde4schroot page.

http://wiki.debian.org/Kde4schroot
http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kde4

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[harry666t]

2. I handle this issue by having ":$HOME/bin" added to my PATH and having symlinks to all the apps I use frequently put there. Then I have Win+X bound to a launch box, and I have to type only one or two first letters of a program name to launch it (KWin's launch box is smart enough to remember which programs I use most often). Or do you just look at the program names and repeat them in your head so frequently that you can't stand the K letter anymore? Then you have a different sort of problem...

obvious response:

[spazdor]

Does Apple?

more like, does it run on FreeBSD

[CDMA_Demo]

[n/t]

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[zapakh]

So the question for me is, why not have their cool icon area thinger, but make it possible to have it a) transparent, and b) occupy the whole desktop. Then you can use it as you see fit... emulate the old way (transparent, maximized, and possibly omnipresent), or fiddle around with novel configurations. Seems like an easy change that would make everyone happy. There ought to be a way to run the applet in question in the root window.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[Just Some Guy]

Drop the stupid K prefix.

iThere iAre iTwo iOther iCompeting gschools gof gthough, i'll grant iou.

Re:Important Caveats

[dbodner]

But the more time I spend learning about it, the more it looks like KDE4.1 should have been KDE4.0. KDE4.0 isn't a stable release. KDE4.1 is meant to be the finished product.

Re:Ob

[SanityInAnarchy]

I remember KDE4 being able to run without KDE3 apps, so long as I didn't want to use the apps (Kontact, AmaroK) that hadn't been ported yet.

Does it actually use KDE3 somewhere under the hood? Or did you mean you want more apps to be ported?

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those features? Well, I can get all the nice graphics with Compiz Fusion (some of them actually are helpful like Expo, ADD Helper, Advanced Zoom, etc.). Many people complain that GNOME removes features and options. They don't. If anyone thinks that, I think they should read the Human Interface Guidelines. They make A LOT of sense.

Re:Important Caveats

[SanityInAnarchy]

Was there somewhere or someone that said otherwise? Only the convention of a "dot-oh" release since the beginning of... since forever.

If it was meant for bleeding-edge adopters, it should have been called alpha or beta. If it was meant for application developers, call it a release candidate, or split it into two projects and call this one "kdebase 4.0".

Calling it "KDE 4.0" was a mistake.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[dbcad7]

This is from the "plasma wiki" faq ...

I heard there are no more icons on the desktop in KDE 4.1...
That is not entirely correct. You can have icons and launchers (shortcuts) by dragging
them from Dolphin or the K-menu. What has changed is that the desktop will no longer
display the contents of the Desktop folder. However, you can show an arbitrary number
of folders (local or remote) on your desktop view, instead of being forced to display only
the contents of the "Desktop" folder. To do so, a new applet has been introduced, the
Folder View applet.

I've read it a few times .. and still vague on what the heck they are trying to do.. of course it's probably simpler to use than it sounds.. This whole thing has peaked my interest in KDE though.. I tried 4.0 on another partition, and immediately went back to gnome.. but I'll give 4.1 beta a shot what the hey.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[SanityInAnarchy]

1. Let us disable the underlined letters in UI elements that signify the accelerators I'm curious -- why? At the very least, I hope it stays in there by default.

2. Drop the stupid K prefix. Tell you what, we'll do that when Apple drops the stupid i prefix.

Re:Ob

[HappySmileMan]

I think he means he wants apps ported. It obviously doesn't run KDE3 under the hood, or it wouldn't be KDE4, it'd be a very different version of KDE3. However Amarok, K3B, Kontact and Konversation, among others, haven't been ported yet

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[matelmaster]

IMHO, any change like this should at least make it possible to mirror the old way of doing things, in case people like it. Reading the comments on Aaron Seigos blog it seems that that's actually possible. A reply of his to a comment similar to yours was

@Dass: "mmh CRAZY IDEA:" not crazy at all. that's *exactly* how folderview-as-your-containment works. neat, huh? =)

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[Vectronic]

They do?

Im not sure which distro's you use, but so far every distro I use has a choice between KDE or Gnome (of which i choose the former) aswell as the usual other more lean ones.

There are some distro's that frown upon Gnome aswell (Slackware for example, which happens to be my favorite)

Distro's that come with KDE (not a complete list)
http://www.kde.org/download/distributions.php

Distro's that come with Gnome (Probably not complete)
http://www.gnome.org/~davyd/footware.shtml

Re:Nothing new

[HappySmileMan]

Well I can't think of a single feature that's on 3.5 and not on 4.1... But maybe I just didn't use enough of 3.5's features.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[HappySmileMan]

You can ALSO have shortcuts on the desktop, in the exact same way you always have, if I read the comments correctly, Aseigo himself says that. And it will be possible to have it transparent, and any size you want, but I think it has to use Plasma's default theme for now. And you can't really judge it from what it's like now, since it was made less than a week ago and won't officially be finished until July

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[Vectronic]

Agreed, I think a lot of people tend to forget that its been some 3 years since KDE 3.5x and basically everything with KDE 4 is still rather beta, whereas Gnome, has for the most part continued its path since 2.0 (6-ish years ago) and thus appears more stable because its more consistent, which arguably could be said is more stable, but I have yet to crash KDE 3.5x...

Disclaimer: I havent used Gnome since about 2001 except for brief periods in Live CD's before installing and switching to KDE... so it may indeed actually be more "stable" however, its layout and style is "incompatible" with my preferences, and reminds me too much of (leaves before the tomatoes hit)...

Re:Ob

[El_Oscuro]

But does it run on Windows?

Seriously, if there was a Windows version, I could replace the crappy Windows shell with it. I still need Windows for certain critical applications like Rollercoaster Tycoon and Battlezone. Losing the Windows shell (and I.E of course) would reduce the attack surface area somewhat and maybe allow me to connect to the Internet occasionally with it.

By slowly replacing Windows components with Linux ones (OOO, Firefox, KDE), it makes it much easier to convert someone to Linux later.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[HappySmileMan]

It means that icons and launchers will be on desktop in exact same way... But it won't show the contents of Desktop folder... As in, the desktop won't contain FILES, it will contain shortcuts and launchers.

The files will be stored in folders, which can be kept in folderview.

What this means is that you could have more than one folder on your desktop, in separate boxes (which I think WILL be themable separately), you could use much more advanced features, like only show certain file types, you can sort the files within that containment. And if you don't want all that, you can always just maximise it, make it transparent and enjoy... (Don't think you can do it YET, but this is a beta)

KDE 4.1 examples on Youtube

[Macka]

The screenshots don't really do KDE 4 development justice. Go to Youtube and search for "KDE Commit-Digest". Change the sort order to Date Added and then scan down the list for interesting looking additions.

Plasma Containments, Issue 85 (Parts 1 & 2) are some of my favourites.

Bloat = many apps on a desktop, with few libs

[CarpetShark]

KDE is absolutely not bloated. A modern desktop SHOULD provide a wide range of services to apps --- including net IO, a web browser component, rss, clipboards, drag and drop, color management, printing, contacts, emailing, calendaring, multimedia, threading, event passing, IPC, tagging, database access, URL shortcuts, launching, file management, thumbnails, etc. Many modern apps use these these things, and it makes absolutely no sense for them all to have dis-integrated separate implementations.

If you want to see bloat, look at the apps for any popular desktop that DOESN'T provide a solid, modern, complete core. Run any modern workflow, like quoting a webpage and editing photos to embed in your spell-checked word processor document, to email to someone whose name is all you can recall. Compare memory use, workflow, and integration, AFTER getting used to each desktop for a few months and learning all of the little integration features provided by each solution. I challenge anyone to do it on linux and find a desktop that beats KDE.

Re:Bloat = many apps on a desktop, with few libs

[JasterBobaMereel]

net IO - That would be the OS's problem
web browser - Not the desktop
rss - Web Browser
clipboards - I only need one ...?
drag and drop - Window manager
colour management - Windows manager
printing - OS
contacts - Contact manager
emailing - Email Client
calendaring - Calendar Client
multimedia - Various
threading - Kernel
event passing - Kernel, X.Org, Windows manager etc ..

Almost none of these should be a part of the "Desktop" give me a clean simple desktop with a separate Window manager, separate everything, but let them talk to each other... rather than the "I do everything" bloat both KDE and Gnome are turning into

Re:Bloat = many apps on a desktop, with few libs

[CarpetShark]

Given that open source generally wants to run on more than one kernel, most of your kernel points are accurate and recommendable, but impractical. Your "windows manager", "web browser" and "rss - web browser" points are simply wrong though, and show what an inferior desktop experience you must be used to up to now. No modern, full-featured desktop could be done with the design you suggest.

Re:Bloat = many apps on a desktop, with few libs

[JasterBobaMereel]

Sorry ... but KDE is a collection of apps and an SDK which allows the applications to share resources and communicate in a consistent way this makes for a much nicer desktop experience but is not unique to KDE or GNOME except for the number of Apps that support the extra features ...

Please do not confuse the parts of the system with the whole... you can run all the parts of KDE separately and they will still work (given the right supporting libraries) but together they are designed to work in tandem so as to work in a consistent and integrated way

Threading should never be done in the Desktop environment it is not an operating system!

The apps should communicate and integrate with the desktop apps but should not be confused with the desktop?

Re:Debian Lenny How-to kde4

[Dragonslicer]

This is distribution-specific. At least in Kubuntu, the users' KDE directory is ~/.kde4, which allows you to have both versions installed without them conflicting with each other.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[RiotingPacifist]

Now in kde4.1 I have to have a big huge ugly black box around my icons...for no reason. I have used KDE for years over gnome, but this change will make me take a look at gnome again. It's a bad decision forcing users to work in a specific way without being able to configure it....Sounds a lot like gnome to me. I switched from gnome to kde because I could actually setup my KDE to be MINE, but now the 'usability' experts are creeping in and taking that away. unless unit kontact is more stable in kde4 i have no reason to switch, and even then ill probably keep kde3 for most parts

Re:other ob.

[The Great Pretender]

I appreciate that you're looking for a pat on the back and feel proud about this moment, so for what it's worth Good For You!! You make me proud.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[pizzach]

Agh! That's it! I'm just going to switch to Knome!

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[rhavenn]

You can also just disable them? I run KDE3 and have zero icons on my desktop.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's piqued, not peaked.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[gardyloo]

If you like KDE, why not just choose to not use desktop icons? Control Center (i.e. kcontrol) -> Desktop -> Behavior -> uncheck "Show icons on desktop". I've been doing this for years (and something similar on Windows) and I like it much better.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[dbcad7]

Ok.. I get it.. I think..maybe this is an over simplification..

Desktop Icons & Launchers = links
Folderview = Link to a directory that has some customizing features.. to the point where it could even be like what is currently a destop.(not a knock as you could create multiple types of desktops)

Sounds interesting... I hope they do it correctly so that broken links are not a problem.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[pizzach]

Okay, lets play a little game for giggles. I want to to name at least 10 major KDE programs that don't have an obnoxious "k" in them. I'll take care of Mac OS and Gnome. Mac apps without a prefixed "i" in the name made by Apple:

1. Finder
2. Address Book
3. Automater
4. Calculator
5. Dashboard
6. Chess
7. Dvd Player
8. Image Capture
9. Mail
10. Preview
11. Quicktime
12. Sherlock
13. Stickies
14. Spot Light
15. Final Cut Pro
16. Aperture
17. Dock
18. expose

Gnome apps without a prefixed "g" included with Gnome:

1. Tomboy
2. Beagle
3. File-roller
4. AisleRiot Solitaire
5. glchess
6. Totem
7. Nautilus
8. Evince
9. Rhythmbox
10. Pidgin
11. Epiphany
12. Ekiga
13. Firefox
14. Thunderbird
15. Banshee
16. vinagre
17. empathy
18. Evolution

Remember, I want at least 10 different KDE programs. They should be notable because they are included or many people use it, and it is preferable that the executable itself does not have the k in it. Go!

Re:Debian Lenny How-to kde4

[cheater512]

It might be a Gentoo patch but my KDE 4 uses .kde4.0 and .kde is a symlink.

Re:Nothing new

[cheater512]

There are some things KDE 4.1 doesnt have yet but damn the things it does have make up for it. :)

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[427_ci_505]

1. Amaro..damn it! 2. Kaffe...argh 3. Konque...)(*&*) 4. Kaffei...*sigh* 5. Kopet...wtf 6. JuK....:( 7. Akregator 8. KSnaps...(&* 9. Koffi...fuck 10. Kmai...bob saget OMG I found one! Gwenview! -KDE User

Companies don't like free software

[CarpetShark]

why don't most distros use KDE? any political / license i dont know about?

Yes. KDE is GPL'd, whereas GNOME is LGPL'd. LGPG is, to quote the free software foundation's own website, "a retreat for free software", which grants concessions to commercial companies (including redhat, sun, novell, etc.). KDE, on the other hand, is free software through and through, and so companies have no way to make a fortune off it once they get a lot of users into their distro's clutches.

Re:Companies don't like free software

[Spicerun]

Keep telling yourself that...but it isn't the full story. A lot of companies/independent developers wouldn't mind using KDE except for 1)dealing with the trolltech Qt license, and 2) the commercial terms are expensive for development...and they aren't allowed to develop their program on the free qtlib libraries first, then switch to the commercial libs.

On top of that, at least with regular GPL'd programs, the sources as well as the sources of the version required for GPL'd libraries to run the application can be distributed. Not so, with Qt. Instead, the user of any program relying on a GPL'd version of qt has to download their own copy qt (including trying to get the correct version of it). The Author of the GPL'd program is not permitted to redistribute any GPL'd versions (aka as the free-qt version) of Qt with the program.

Don't believe me? Check the Trolltech licensing. It's the reason I won't develop anything using Qtlib.

Re:Companies don't like free software

[bain_online]

I checked and rechecked Trolltech site for license... If you chose GPL'ed version of QT, it is "GPLed" with just one exception, if you _do_ have the porprietary license and develop qt app, you can link this app with GPL'ed qt and need not open your source. But apart from the exception.... it is _GPLed_ and as long as you stick to gpl nothing prevents you from distributing qt with your app...

Re:Companies don't like free software

[richlv]

...and they aren't allowed to develop their program on the free qtlib libraries first, then switch to the commercial libs.

On top of that, at least with regular GPL'd programs, the sources as well as the sources of the version required for GPL'd libraries to run the application can be distributed. Not so, with Qt. Instead, the user of any program relying on a GPL'd version of qt has to download their own copy qt (including trying to get the correct version of it). The Author of the GPL'd program is not permitted to redistribute any GPL'd versions (aka as the free-qt version) of Qt with the program. troll alert. not trolltech one, no, just plain troll.
it is impossible to be so uninformed but still convinced of oneself.
oh, ot would be kinda cool if you could quote gpl license parts that prohibit distribution, all linux distros will have to remove qt now, *horror*.

Re:Companies don't like free software

[CarpetShark]

The Trolltech Qt license is the GPL, for any company that intends to provide free software. You made my point for me.

Re:Companies don't like free software

[CarpetShark]

it is impossible to be so uninformed but still convinced of oneself.

In your case, it seems the answer is yes. If you want to reply, please make an argument instead of childish ad hominem attacks.

Re:Companies don't like free software

[Almahtar]

I've thought about this a bit... why couldn't you develop your app as GPL until it's ready, then get the development license? The only catch is that while it's GPL, don't distribute it to anyone.

The GPL doesn't require you make your source available to the universe, just to those you distribute your app to. If you don't distribute your app to anyone, you're following it to the letter.

Am I missing something?

Re:Important Caveats

[QCompson]

KDE4.0 isn't a stable release. KDE4.1 is meant to be the finished product. Oh yes, of course. That makes perfect sense.

My eyes can't roll any higher.

Re:other ob.

[Anonymous Coward]

My girlfriend (proud owner of an Eee PC) was in the Royal Bank today and discovered that they currently have a promotion where if you change your non-RBC chequing account over to them on some $13 a month plan, they give you a free Eee PC. Just like that. The freaking bank.

It really is the year of Linux on the desktop.

I'm a new linux user, and I want to like kde4....

[teshuvah]

I recently setup ubuntu, kubuntu with kde3, and kubuntu with kde4 on 3 separate volumes on my macbook. With ubuntu and kubuntu/kde3, i booted into it and it saw my wireless network, asked me for the wpa key, and i was signed in. i was pleasantly surprised. with kde4, it didn't event realize i had a wireless card, evn though it showed that it was using a restricted driver for it. i tried for an hour to get wireless to work, but with no avail.

for my second test, i connected to all 3 of these instances remotely via Leopard's builtin vnc viewer. again, with ubuntu and kde3 everything works great. with kde4, the remote screen had color splotches everywhere, menus would disappear, etc. the actual desktop on the computer was ok, but messed up in vnc.

these tests were all done about 2 weeks ago using ubuntu/kubuntu 8.04 with all the latest patches at the time. in my limited experience, kde4 felt like alpha software at best. i really want to like kde4, so hopefully 4.1 will fix these issues.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[dbIII]

Unfortunately not in my situation - gnome still handles remote windows badly which can result in a lot of lockups. KDE has other problems so I have a mixed environment for the users in my workplace.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[digidave]

"I completely disagree. I put many frequently used icons on my desktop as it speeds up my access to them."

The desktop is covered by one or more windows most of the time, so how is it easier to move or minimize windows to launch a program or browse a directory? Any time one important thing is covered by another important thing, it's broken. That's why I hate desktop widgets, desktop icons, and windows that cover each other (not that I have a better idea for that last one).

From my perspective I think KDE 4.1 should put a lot more focus on Krunner (the run dialog). First, they should give it a quicker shortcut so it's easier to launch. I use ctrl-space. It's a better program launcher than icons on the desktop or the K menu because I just start typing the name and after a few letters I can hit enter and it launches. It handles web site bookmarks as well. If it worked that easily for directories and previously connected ssh sessions I'd be all set.

Re:Ob

[SanityInAnarchy]

It obviously doesn't run KDE3 under the hood, or it wouldn't be KDE4... I'm thinking more along the lines of, 99% of everything is KDE4, but some critical daemon or library has to be KDE3 for some reason.

I didn't think so, though, especially given how much longer a KDE3 app takes to start on KDE4 than the equivalent KDE4 app. (Which doesn't say anything about their respective speed; the converse is also true.)

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[SanityInAnarchy]

And this exercise proves... what, exactly?

Keep in mind, also, that you're including things which aren't part of the GNOME distribution -- at least, Firefox is not. It just happens to use the gtk+ libs. So, just running through my fairly standard Kubuntu menu:

Strigi
SpeedCrunch
Printing
Hardware Drivers Manager
Install
Adept Manager
Screensaver
Bovo
Shishen-Sho
Patience Card Game
Potato Guy
SameGame (I should get double points for this -- your version is called SameGNOME, if I remember)
System Settings
Gwenview

And on KDE4, there's also Plasma, Phonon, and friends -- pretty much none of the new technologies have K in the word.

Now can we get back to why you even care?

Re:Ob

[porl]

most of the kde programs are going to be ported to windows, but not the kwin desktop environment itself. so you will be able to run amarok, kate etc in windows, but it will still look like boring old windows with the explorer shell.

porl

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[furbyhater]

I'm bored, so:

1. Basket
2. Anymeal
3. Bibletime
4. Dolphin
5. Labplot
6. Filelight
7. Gwenview
8. Mailody
9. Strigi
10. Tellico
11. Vym
12. Wlassistant
13. Videocut
14. Taskjuggler
15. Rsibreak
16. Score-reading-trainer
17. Picwiz
18. Icecc
19. Eyesapplet
20. Fifteenapplet
21. Bulmacont
22. Bulmafact
23. Bulmages
24. Biblemeorizer

Most of them probably aren't considered "notable".

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[pizzach]

Interestin'! Are they all 3.5 programs, or 4.0 programs?

Now can we get back to why you even care?

Well...I don't use KDE and I am curious. Seems like reason enough. The impression I get from KDE is that all of the major programs have to have a k in them more often than other DEs/Mac OS with their own respective letters.

I thought afterwards that the firefox/thunderbird thing was a bit contrived, but it doesn't help that Ubuntu defaults to Firefox and it has no qt front-end.

Thanks for the reply :)

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[SanityInAnarchy]

Some are 3.5, some are 4.0, and some are both. I used to have 4.0 on this machine, until I discovered just how badly KDE has screwed with the concept of what a dot-oh release means. So I still have some cases where I've got two identical menu items, except one of them ends in a (KDE4).

Going through the list:

Strigi is most likely 3.5, if anything.
SpeedCrunch appears to be 3.5.
Printing and Hardware Drivers Manager are very likely Ubuntu-specific
Install is the Ubuntu installer. Probably 3.5.
Adept Manager is an apt frontend for KDE. Probably 3.5.
Screensaver is hopefully both by now.
Bovo is a game for KDE4.
Shishen-Sho, Patience, Potato Guy, and SameGame are all games, for both.

System Settings is integrated as of 4.0, but has been in Kubuntu on 3.5 for awhile. It's an alternate frontend for all of the KDE control widgets, and it looks and feels exactly like System Preferences on OS X. The widgets themselves have always been there, this just organizes them better.

It seems like all the new technology for KDE4 that's fit to name ends up with a non-K name. Plasma is the widget manager, which makes up the desktop/dashboard and the panel. Phonon is the multimedia metaframework.

Not everything that's new in KDE4 lacks the K -- there's Okular, a replacement for KPDF. But that's not exactly a deep, system-level difference -- although, this being KDE, everywhere there could possibly be a PDF, there's a fair shot I can have an embedded Okular.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[Just Some Guy]

That's stupid, GNOME has stopped using 'g' on their names long ago.

So has KDE for new applications:

Phonon
Solid
Plasma
Gwenview
Decibel
Strigi
Soprano
Dolphin

Sure, there are the obligatory "K" apps, many of them having been around for quite a few years and unlikely to change names for no good reason. The new stuff is pretty unconstrained, though, and certainly no more so than their Gnome counterparts.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[jhol13]

Seriously, those screenshots makes me want to puke.

I know there are very few who dislike distractions like animations, etc. For me Compiz is PITA.

Even the "less candy" setting in Ubuntu 8.04 is a bit annoying. Unfortunately it seems there is no way to enable transparency and still get exactly zero animations - when I minimise a program I bloody hell know I minimised it because the window disappeared, I do not need more visual feedback. The "wobbly windows" setting seems to be designed for people who use computers instead of the applications.

KDE on windows

[armanox]

Go check out http://windows.kde.org/

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[armanox]

In KDE (3.x and 4.x) transparency by itself is simple to enable by itself. In KDE 3.x, Control Center -> Desktop -> Window Behavior -> Translucency. Adjust accordingly. In KDE 4, the controls are similar, just disable everything but transparency.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[anishm]

So, what's your point. That Apple and Gnome need to do much a better job of naming? :->. BTW, I think the K prefix serves a useful purpose. E.g. if I wanted to remove KDE, I could just remove all the K* packages :->. PS: I haven't actually ever needed to remove KDE, I do all my work in KDE or ion.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[jopsen]

Reputation for stability among whom? Gnome users? ;-) Seriously, I've been using KDE for years and never had any serious stability problems. You're probably right about that... But most distros today focuses on Gnome and therefore Gnome often feels better integrated and thus more stable than KDE... I remember using Kubuntu and some of the dialogs would fit on my 1024x768 screen so I could click ok... :)

Re:Nothing new

[richlv]

stability ;)
really, 3.5 series have been very, very stable.
while 3.0, 3.1 had some crashes, some high memoery usage cases, latest versions have concentrated on bugfixes and minor features, so this is a very pleasant desktop to use without nasty surprises.

oh, and quite a lot of apps aren't yet fully ported to qt/kde4, so you would have to run kde3 versions - which increases memory usage.

Re:Important Caveats

[quag7]

This was so widely discussed all over the Internet, I find it difficult to believe anyone didn't know what 4.0 was. People fell all over themselves to make it clear that 4.0 was not intended for primetime use.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[vdboor]

Yes... now you have a big, black box that has to be as big as the area you want icons in. Wow... that's so much more awesome. :)

The plasma developers are aware of the fact that a black box is ugly, but they like to implement the applet background mechanism in a generic clean way first. Not something hackish which causes compatibility issues later.

The idea is the following:

• The folderview can be set as central desktop applet *by design*, to have the old situation if you like.
• In KDE 4.2 (hopefully earlier) the background image can be set for it.
• You can have multiple folder views.
• Each one can display a different folder.

So instead of grouping icons yourself in various corners by theme, you can have multiple folder views for your desktop, documents and download folder. I think it will be far more powerful then grouping icons yourself.

Since the desktop background is just an applet, you could technically use every other applet for it. Like an animated applet or 3D planet instead of a boring wallpaper :)

Plasma gives you all the building blocks to build your own desktop. The background, panels, taskbar and systray are all applets. Eveything can all be torn apart, replaced, and put together as you like.

How is that for a change?

On the developer side, everything is scriptable too. So nothing stops you from making a desktop visualisation or taskbar in python :) API's are provided to get the required data for the taskbar, window, clocks, icons, rss feeds, devices and more. That avoids code duplication and makes it really easy to write applets.

You could imagine it takes time to implement all building blocks properly. With the details I sketch here, can you imagine what would be possible in the future? So we need some patience here. Plasma is going to rock!

Re:Ob

[Hucko]

Sheesh I thought you were EL Lobo and I's thinking that we had seen a major WinFanboi fall!... now I'll get back to my drudgery.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[Hucko]

Make sense, and allow me to change my computer the way I want may (in the case of Gnome, is) two different things. Also, does scrolling menus make sense??? I'll read them as you suggest one day, but I'm not a fan of Gnome's do it our way...

Re:other ob.

[Hucko]

Wine 1.0 is not really going to be the messiah you are suggesting... wine 1.0 will be compatible 4 apps. Photoshop (as you said) but three MSOffice document viewers-not the Office suite, just the viewers.

Re:Important Caveats

[Hucko]

think of it this way: A complete overhaul/redesign of the DE is coming in KDE architecture, which, as it is preceded by KDE 3, will be known as 4. The version 4 being worked on currently is a .xx (0) release just like any other alpha/beta product and will become known as 1x. So very simple; . ...

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[donaldm]

All Linux distributions have the option of using KDE or Gnome or any other GUI if you wish, it really is up to your preferences and what is installed on your system. Personally I always install both KDE and Gnome since it gives everyone in my family a choice.

I use Fedora 9 which has KDE 4.0.4-2 (latest update) however I was disappointed when I compare it to KDE 3.5 which seemed to scale its fonts on the task bar correctly. Try putting the KDE 4 task bar to your right or left on the screen, KDE 4 now has a widget to do this instead of drag and drop. I would not mind this since it is easy to do but the fonts don't scale accordingly. In fact not only did I find KDE 4.0 annoying my wife was not impressed either until I showed her how to switch to Gnome by selecting Gnome just before you login (you have been able to do this for years). I did some minor customisation for her (hide the task bars) and she is very happy. I also made the switch as well.

Before anyone makes a comment on saying "we have another convert to Gnome" I have also found some annoyances with Gnome as well and from my perspective it is just that the current Gnome IMHO is much better than 4.0 (I found KDE 3.5 much better) but I do realise that KDE 4.0 is what I would call a Beta and definately needs some fixing.

To the KDE developers "Bring back the old 3.5 configuration widget although do enhance it for 4.1 but please don't have lots of little widgets, that is so annoying". Also bring back the drag and drop menu bar and make sure your fonts scale accordingly when changing the position of your task bar.

When KDE 4.1 comes out I will make the switch back from Gnome because I personally like KDE over Gnome but again like I said it is a personal preference. Of course I will switch back if KDE 4.1 is not what I consider better. If they are equal I may have KDE and Gnome days depending on what I want to do.

Aesthetics

[full-of-beans]

Minor point I admit but I hope you can adjust the amount of fixed space underneath the icons on the task bar, 'cos having no space makes the larger icons touch the bottom of the screen - It's the first thing I noticed and to my eyes its just not aesthetically pleasing.

Re:other ob.

[stefanPryor]

wow people on slashdot have such a great sense of humor.
it really tickles my funny bone

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[sonofagunn]

So what happens when I want to drag a file over to the desktop and dump it there?

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[Lord Lode]

Really? I thought there were enough K's yet in KDE. There are some opportunities to reduce the amount of C's that they haven't taken! E.g. KCalc isn't called "Kalkulator", KColorEdit isn't called "KolorEdit", and KDE Control Center isn't called "Kontrol Center".

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[Just Some Guy]

Bwahaha, and here I sat trying to figure out what strange desktop environment prefixing everything with and inverted exclamationmark :P

Presumably something coming from Miguel.

Free Eee PC from RBC

[Kimos]

OT but it seems legit:
http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/products/deposits/nolimit/index.html

Re:other ob.

[larry bagina]

OpenStep/NeXTStep. CDE.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[JasterBobaMereel]

Icons, on your desktop .... why?

I don't on Linux : Gnome - Disabled all the desktop Icons

I don't on Windows (XP) - I run Litestep with desktop folder icons ....

Don't miss them, don't miss the clutter ...

Re:Important Caveats

[pherthyl]

Sorry but that's bull. I read the kde dev blogs, I use KDE 4.1 packages, and I love KDE, but the release was certainly not advertised as unstable nearly enough.

Have a look at the official release announcement. Not a word that it's not actually meant for users. http://kde.org/announcements/4.0/

I love KDE, but that release was a bad move. Luckily KDE 4.1 will actually be pretty good for users, so it won't be repeated.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[pizzach]

I'm actually a bit surprised no one has mentioned Skype.

Re:Ob

[Risen888]

If you're on 8.04, the ppa repo is no longer necessary. Just pull from main.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[Anonymous Coward]

More than 10 major KDE programs that don't have "k" in them:

Dolphin
Dragon Player (new in KDE 4.1)
Filelight
Fraqtive
Gwenview
Marble
Noatun
Quanta Plus
Rosegarden
showimg
Strigi
Guarddog

BTW, Firefox and Thunderbird aren't Gnome apps although you listed them as such. Instead, Gnome has Epiphany, Balsa and Evolution. But Guarddog and Rosegarden aren't officially part of KDE, either.

Re:Ob

[pak9rabid]

Does it actually use KDE3 somewhere under the hood? Or did you mean you want more apps to be ported? I meant that I want more apps to be ported. I'm not really sure how kde4 differs under the hood from kde3 to be honest.

Re:Important Caveats

[Almahtar]

Not everything that's released is meant for humans (the relevant comment is 30 seconds in)

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[furbyhater]

Skype != OSS

"We don't like these type o' folks 'round here" ;-)

Also, Skype isn't a KDE package.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[HappySmileMan]

Well from what Aaron said in the comments, it'll work almost exactly like it does now, I'm not sure exactly what that means, I'm not a KDE developer, just someone who took the time to read the comments before coming here to post

Re:Nothing new

[HappySmileMan]

Ah touche, but instability is to be expected until 4.1 or 4.2, in my opinion it's worth it, KDE4 seems to be a bit faster and much less RAM intensive than KDE3, and I'm assuming it'll only get better when Konversation, Amarok and KMail are ported (the KDE3 programs I'm using)

Re:Ob

[HappySmileMan]

I'm thinking more along the lines of, 99% of everything is KDE4, but some critical daemon or library has to be KDE3 for some reason. Everything released with KDE4 now uses the proper KDE4 libraries, Qt4, etc... Only unofficial stuff hasn't been ported (or, in cases like Kontact, they haven't been ported but haven't been released yet with it (until this Beta)) so no KDE3 libs running unless you install them yourself.

OTOH considering some important and successful programs like Amarok haven't been ported, almost everyone using KDE4 does have some KDE3 libs running

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[V!NCENT]

Speedcrunch is not the default calculator for KDE4...
You also have Dolphin (file manager), Dragon Player (video player), Plasma (desktop), Phonon (lib), Marble (Google earth but without the satalite pictures), etc, etc...