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H-1B Foes Challenge Bush Administration In Court
theodp writes "Computerworld reports that the Bush administration's recent decision to extend the amount of time foreign nationals can work in the U.S. on student visas is being challenged in a federal lawsuit by H-1B visa opponents. The suit, filed in US District Court by the Immigration Reform Law Institute and joined by The Programmers Guild and other groups, charges that the administration — acting through the Department of Homeland Security — exceeded its legal authority with a no-notice-no-comments 'emergency' rule change that extended the Optional Practical Training work period from one year to 29 months. Critics say this is little more than an effort to skirt around the H-1B cap limit. Because extended stays are limited to those whose degrees are in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) fields, educators are speculating that the rule change will drive international students away from non-STEM majors."
The fact of the matter we need to increase educational spending so we lessen the need for things like H-1B's. Let alone bickering about a supposed increased cap.
On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
Why do people keep implying that insisting that immigrants come here legally (and in this case, discussing what that will mean) is the same thing as insisting that they are unwelcome? Do you not see the dishonesty of that?
Saying that this is a "land of immigrants", while true, is also irrelevant since no one is trying to prove that it isn't. The issue being settled is the duration of a visa. The argument is how much time is needed to realize the stated purpose of the visa. You first have to have immigrants (more like visitors, in this case) who are welcome here before there is a question of how long they may stay.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
H1B has turned into a huge scam for corporate slavery. Employers know they can get cheap labor and throw them away when done. Most visas go to giant corporations like MicroSoft. If we want to "welcome the tired and huddle masses" then re-open Ellis Island and take them in and give them Green Cards or Citizenship papers and let them walk into a free country and decide what to do. This equine excrement that ties them to the sponsoring employer should be viewed for what it is which is a disposable cheap worker program.
Ezekiel 23:20
regardless of what you think of immigration, education, H1B's, and DHS, why are so many comments about immigration, employers, etc - and not governmental abuse of power?
if anyone would like to explain how using emergency powers in a non-emergency setting isn't abuse, please, step up to the plate.
the united states is a nation of laws; badly written and randomly enforced -- frank zappa
Certain skills still are in strong demand, says Ms. Chota, adding that the company can't find enough qualified graduates with degrees in computer science and those who have knowledge of both business and IT. "In the U.S., unfortunately, there are not enough great computer-science graduates," Ms. Chota says.""
Um excuse me? So, Americans are not good enough for IBM. Even though they go to the same great American universities just like the smarter foreigners.
So, which is it?!?
You cannot "immigrate illegally". Why do you, the freedom-loving Americans, deny the people the basic right of moving anywhere they want to?
It's unnatural, unfair and counterproductive to criminalize people for just coming to your country. Why not go further and impose Soviet-like registration of citizens, penalizing them for moving from state to state or even from city to city "illegally"? It's the same way of thinking.
Coding etudes
It's interesting to note that only when people discuss education does the phrase "throw money at the problem" come up.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
The lottery system you refer to isn't the only way to get an H1B. That "game" was invented as a way to increase the diversity of people immigrating. My guess is that the US has similar problems a lot of other "first world" countries have: They are the primary goal of people from certain countries. France has its Maghreb (i.e. northern Africa), Germany has Turkey and the US have Mexico. People from those areas and countries emigrate primarily to a certain country.
What all those "target" countries fear is a strong, united "foreign block" that may abuse the democratic system to muscle for more say and more cultural influence. You can already notice it how candidates start wooing those immigrants by offering them something that is not necessarily in the interest of the rest of the people who are not from those areas.
That's what this immigration lottery is about. When you look carefully, you'll see that certain countries may not participate. Why do you think is it that way?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I think that the most of international students in the US are planning to settle there sooner or later. So "reduces number of American students" argument is invalid - those students will eventually become Americans, too.
Lowering wages? Well... The golden billion of human population finally starts to feel the globalization effects.
Coding etudes
That's the reason I won't work in the US. I always get a giggle fit when the guy at INS asks me whether I plan to work there (having a travel visa when you're on the visa waiver list sure raises some brows, I tell you...).
Let's see, I get 5 weeks of paid vacation, free health care, free retirement insurance, free accident and handicap insurance, free and limitless unemployment insurance, secured workplace even when I'm sick for 2 months (they can't lay me off just because I'm sick), cheap housing and more money than in the US (especially with the current USD:EUR rate). Care to tell me again why I should want to work in the US?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Essentially, Homeland Security is now in charge of all immigration issues. State, which properly oversees such matters, has been reduced to a hollow shell (and not just on immigration; the Bush administration has basically been waging war on the entire department since the run-up to the Iraq war.) DHS is a hydra which has taken on many formerly well-defined functions of other departments and handles none of them well.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Fewer lawyers could also mean that they all can make a living and don't have to resort to make-money-fast schemes like sending cease and desist notices about.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Actually, that has not been the case for a while now.
The big trend has been to come to the U.S., get an education, save up some money, go home and buy some land and live well.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
The CS program attendance plummeted at the same time salaries and job security in the field plummeted.
The talent is there, they don't want to work in a field where companies don't want to reward them.
They can't get americans to buy their crappy pay, benefits, and job security, so they want to farm out slave labor they can have deported at their whim.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
How is this online? (Section: YRO.) Shouldn't it be in Politics?
I disagree, simply because this would increase competition if vouchers were given. If a private school produces far more students that get into top 30 universities, either public schools will have to direct efforts to educating their students or face a loss of funding as parents use a voucher to put their child in a private school.
Nuclear engineers build weapons. Civil engineers build targets.
The most hurt by this will be Americans. These graduates won't disappear from the face of the earth, they'll just be working for Microsoft, IBM, Google, etc. in Europe, India, and China, make their inventions there, start startups there, and pay their taxes there. No US job will be saved by this action; to the contrary, as more and more R&D moves overseas, the supporting jobs will move with them.
Of course, if the H-1b foes persist in this, it also completely screws people who have lived in the US for many years. But they aren't Americans, so who cares, right?
I'm happy this is finally happening. Why the hell should we educate them and then let them work for less money and displace others of us who deserve those positions.
You know, that remark is so stupid that I'm not sure you can even be serious, but I suppose there must be a reason you have trouble finding a good job. So, let's walk through this.
Why do you think the US (usually foundations and universities) are investing $500k in the education of these students? It's because they can't find Americans willing and capable of getting educated in these areas. So, after all that money is invested, you just want to send them away. What do you think they are going to do with their $500k education in India or China or Europe or Canada? Plant rice? Perform folk dances for American tourists? Work as bartenders?
I'll tell you what they'll do: they'll work for Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, Google, whatever. Or they'll start their own startups and compete with US companies.
You won't get a job out of this. If Oracle doesn't want you now, refusing an H-1b visa to the candidate they want won't make them hire you. Instead, they'll just move that job and all the required support staff to countries where they can hire the candidates they want to hire.
Not to troll but after seeing Chinese students protesting against the Lama in Univ Washington and picking up fights in other countries against the local students... I think I'll be happy to miss out on some of those brainwashed chinese kids.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Indeed. I am from the US and have worked in Europe for many years. I loved living in Europe, I loved having 6 weeks of vacation per year and being paid in Euros is a nice perk these days.
There is a downside to all that nicety however. Unemployment tends to be high. Try finding a job in southern Germany, even with the qualifications. Be prepared for a long and painful job search. I saw a friend - an engineer - search for a job for two years so that the could live in the same city as his wife. Why? Companies are reluctant to hire people because they can't fire them so easily. Try starting a company in Europe. Try getting VC. Better yet, start a company and fail at the first go. In the US, that would be shrugged off as a learning experience. In Europe, it makes you a lepper.
I'm in India right now and I see something different. I see a place where new tech parks are rising like crabgrass and replacing shacks. I see people equally as intelligent as their counterparts in Europe and the US willing to work much harder (already in school).
Are you trolling, or do you seriously believe that people have a right to move wherever in the world they want to? I mean, if you seriously believe that, I don't have a bridge to sell you, but I do have some blackhat friends you should meet. That is, if you're willing to exercise the same God-given right as them and move to the West Bank.
Oh, and since we have the right to move wherever we like, I'm sending an invasion force of immigrants to Japan. Once there they'll vote themselves a roughly Anglo-European system of government, but they've got a right to go there and swamp the aging population.
Myths and Realities About the USA H1-B Program
Myth: H1-Bs are the "best and brightest"
Reality: If that were true then the typical H1-B would a Nobel prize winning scientist. The truth is, the typical H1-B is an average student, hired right out of college with only a four year degree. The typical H1-B is no more qualified than the US graduates who are not getting jobs. The H1-Bs are just cheaper. And because of the lottery nature of the H1-B process, employers do not even know who they are getting. So how do employers know that they are getting the best and brightest?
Also, isn't it funny that almost all of the "best and brightest" come from countries where people earn as little as $1 a day? If it's really about the "best and brightest" then why aren't there more European H1-Bs?
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Myth: H1-Bs are needed because of the critical shortage of US technology workers
Reality: Serious academic studies clearly indicate that skills shortage is a myth.
> These studies done at Duke aren't alone in their assessment that there is in fact no skills shortage. They're backed up by other studies conducted by RAND Corporation, The Urban Institute and Stanford University, among others, all of which settle upon the same conclusion: There is no shortage of educated IT workers.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1081923#PaperDownload
This according to a well researched article at baselinemag.com:
http://tinyurl.com/yoy2rw
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Myth: H1-Bs do compete unfairly, because H1-Bs are paid the prevailing wage
Reality:
> According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Occupational Employment Statistics (OES) as the measurement of U.S. wages, and the H-1B LCA disclosure data to measure H-1B wages, 90% of H-1B employers' prevailing wage claims for programmers were below the median U.S. wage for that occupation and location, with 62% of them falling in the bottom 25th percentile of U.S. wages, said Miano [founder of the Programmer's Guild].
> Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology (currently on leave) and a research associate at the Economic Policy Institute, pointed to USCIS's most recent report to Congress, which shows that the medium wage in 2005 for new H-1B computing professionals was just $50,000 -- even lower than the entry-level wages that a newly graduated tech worker with a bachelor's degree and no experience would command.
http://tinyurl.com/4bvwyh
According to the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Service's (USCIS) annual report to Congress in 2005, the aggregate data for computing professionals lend support to the argument that the practice of paying H-1Bs below-market wages is quite common.
http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html
H1-Bs are hired at four different skill levels, "4" being the highest. But most H1-Bs are hired for the lowest "1" level jobs - regardless of what kind of work the H1-Bs actually do.
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Myth: In the USA enrollment in technical disciplines is declining. Proof the USA needs to hire more foreign workers
Reality: This myth is designed to confuse cause and effect. Employers are not forced to hire offshore because enrollment is down. Rather, enrollment is down because of aggressive offshoring by employers. But even with enrollments down, there are still more than enough US workers.
> Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," said Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Euge
Come on mods, why is this user's opinion "informative" with the only information being that they attended private school? this person listed almost no justification for their opinion and is in no way informative! I would love to be able to discuss this with you but you didn't say anything other than your opinion!
I also went to private school but I think that they are a good thing for the education system, i doubt they are a silver bullet that will solve all problems if we only had vouchers but that doesn't mean they are useless.
I enjoyed my school because of a more intimate environment, the majority (not all) of the students were more academically minded and while my school was far from the best by any means it was still leaps and bounds upon the public school which was in an intense competition with the neighboring county over which was the worst public highschool in the state.
If for no other reason I think the slashdot community can see the advantage in private schools so that those who shun science and demand to be taught creation can go to a private institution and leave the public schools to teach evolution in peace.
http://greenobyl.com/ please.... think of the children!!