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Prediction Markets and the 2008 Electoral Map

Electionwatch submitted a predicted electoral map of the 2008 US Presidential election, based on the bets made by the intrade prediction markets. I'm always interested in these markets and how accurate they end up being. This one calls it for Obama, but then again you probably could guess that by just watching 10 minutes of any TV "News" channel.

55 of 813 comments (clear)

  1. Obama will win! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    He can walk on water and make the dead rise.

    1. Re:Obama will win! by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Funny

      If it didn't work for the indians, why would you expect it to work for his dog?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:Obama will win! by mosb1000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To be fair, he was trying to say "I will veto any bill containing earmarks", and the word beer is a mixture of the word bill and ear. I don't know why people make such a big deal when candidates misspeak, I say shit like that all the time. I think most people do. I'd doubt it has anything to do with his age.

  2. Called if for Obama by bit+trollent · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I think that the computer really only needs a few numbers to call this election for Obama:
    1. Value of the Dollar
    2. Number of people killed in Iraq
    3. Number of WMDs found in Iraq
    4. Percentage of bankruptcies caused by lack of health care coverage
    5. Number of houses lost to predatory lenders - this is what deregulation is all about
    1. Re:Called if for Obama by pubjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, I think there are going to be powerful dark forces at work to try get the Republicans back in again.

      People are easily swayed. Another terrorist attack in the USA I think could sway the elections.

    2. Re:Called if for Obama by tonyreadsnews · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right because so many things like this weren't against Bush when he was elected the 2nd time.

      Never underestimate the power of fear, doubt, and money.

    3. Re:Called if for Obama by sayfawa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Too bad those numbers didn't call it for Kerry. The only point that wasn't a big issue in '04 is number 5. So who knows what will happen. Also, you forgot one:

      6. Teh ghey marriage!

      --
      Free the Quark 3 from asymptotic confinement! Bring your charm! Don't get down! All colours and flavours welcome!
    4. Re:Called if for Obama by r_jensen11 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, I think there are going to be powerful dark forces at work to try get the Republicans back in again.

      People are easily swayed. Another terrorist attack in the USA I think could sway the elections. That after 8 years, Republicans can't protect America?
    5. Re:Called if for Obama by jgarra23 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That after 8 years, Republicans can't protect America?
      Not to take any of the blame from the Repubs but I think it's safe to include the Dems in there as well. Any ounce of thoughtful prevention from anyone has been quickly buried by both.

      Score one for the politicians, I'm surprised that no one has realized that there really is only one party with two different subsets in America.

    6. Re:Called if for Obama by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Never underestimate the power of fear, doubt, and money.
      Also, never underestimate the power of unverifiable electronic vote capturing in key districts.

      And never underestimate the power of election tampering by directing poor urban voters to the wrong site... or by undersupplying voting machines in poor urban districts...
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    7. Re:Called if for Obama by rhakka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I was just out collecting signatures yesterday to fight RealID and the concessions we're making towards it in maine.

      let me tell you; people in rural maine are still afraid of terrorists. I got my sigs because many rural mainers are also damn near libertarians and luckily this time around realID is an unfunded mandate and mainers hate taxes, but I lost plenty to people who want the government to be covering us all like some big, faceless security blanket.

    8. Re:Called if for Obama by indifferent+children · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Poor innocent borrowers that had loans forced down their throat. Give me a break.

      So when you pit an individual with a 100 IQ, working a full-time job, who has had one, maybe two mortgages before in his/her life, against an army of investors, lenders, brokers, lawyers, etc., whose only job is to create create and tweak these "instruments", that is a level playing field? At the very least, the borrower should have been able to trust that the lenders were looking out for their (the lenders) own best interest. Even that safeguard didn't exist.

      When I closed on my loan, I had a stack of about 400 pages of documents to be signed and initialed in a few dozen places. These papers were not given to me until the hour of the actual closing. The language (much of it) was legalese. I checked the interest rate and the length of the loan. Most of the rest was taken on faith (this is just how it's done). Note: I have a simple, fixed-rate, 30-year loan; I'm not complaining because I got bit (I didn't), but don't feel disdain for people who got screwed by predatory lending practices.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    9. Re:Called if for Obama by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe it's just because I'm Canadian, but I can't really see why anybody is against gay marriage. Marry whoever you want. It doesn't affect anybody except the people entering into the marriage. You may not agree with it, but you may also not agree with marrying somebody that only makes 1/2 as much money as you do. That doesn't mean that everybody should have to marry in the same income bracket. To me it seems like a no-brainer. Let people marry whoever they want. As long as the people getting married are mentally capable of entering into a contract, I see no reason why anybody should stop them. I really don't understand why there would be any controversy.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    10. Re:Called if for Obama by fishbowl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >Kerry. He's such a loser.

      You must be a *very* successful person, to be able to say that.
      How is it that you find time to post on slashdot?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  3. Pretty close to CNN by jeiler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/10/electoral.map/index.html

    --

    If you haven't been down-modded lately, you aren't trying.

    Sacred cows make the best hamburger.

    1. Re:Pretty close to CNN by mh1997 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Was there ever a time that the political "news" centered on the candidates and not polls and predictions?

    2. Re:Pretty close to CNN by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're being far too harsh. Today's political news certainly does focus on the candidates. Who paid what for a haircut, who teared up in front of the cameras, whether the candidate is black enough or too abrasive or can't bowl for crap or too old or too young. Then they discuss how each of these factors plays with the various "key demographics", whether they be white soccer moms, elderly Florida Jews, Cuban exiles, blue collar males, urban Hispanics, NASCAR dads, and the Amish.

      I think that the giant, sucking gap that you're noticing is a vacuous, superficial, talking-point centered discussion of *policy*. :)

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

  4. I, for one, welcome our new Votemaster! by Iambic+Pentametor · · Score: 5, Informative

    I visit http://www.electoral-vote.com/ every day.

    --
    So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now.
    1. Re:I, for one, welcome our new Votemaster! by Falkkin · · Score: 4, Informative

      "also a tech guy" ... yes, and an infamous one: "LINUX is obsolete [...] LINUX is a monolithic style system. This is a giant step back into the 1970s. That is like taking an existing, working C program and rewriting it in BASIC. To me, writing a monolithic system in 1991 is a truly poor idea." -Andrew S. Tanenbaum, comp.os.minix, Jan. 29 1992.

      Right before the 2004 election, electoral-vote.com called the election for Kerry. Oops!

      I appreciate his sentiments and his methodology but it seems he doesn't have a great track record for picking winners :)

    2. Re:I, for one, welcome our new Votemaster! by pjp6259 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Right before the 2004 election, electoral-vote.com called the election for Kerry. Oops!

      nope. Here's the page from the day of the election:
      http://electoral-vote.com/evp2004/nov/nov02.html

      He gives Kerry 262 electoral votes. Since you need 270 to win, you can't really say he called it for Kerry.

      --
      Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
  5. Some of those predictions seem overly confident by SputnikPanic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    McCain 70-80% likely to pick up Florida? Obama 70-80% likely to grab Pennsylvania? Everyone is expecting those two to be big battleground states. Those probabilities seem pretty lofty to me.

  6. Cool Wired Article on the Problems w/ Predictions by absent_speaker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you interested in prediction markets, check out this wired article:

    http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-06/st_essay

    It's a good piece on some of the challenges prediction markets have: small trading populations, mostly community insiders trading on things they care/know a lot about, small stakes. It's an interesting read!

  7. My predictions by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Funny

    After only a string of 43 previous presidents, the country will finally rejoice when we elect a Christian male to the highest office in the land. It's about time! :P

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  8. Wait... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 5, Funny

    Should this map be on the Diebold site?

  9. Re:Go Obama!! by Frequency+Domain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Go Obama!! Don't you mean Ron Paul? No, because I've actually studied economics (as opposed to reading a few Ayn Rand novels).
  10. Dolt by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "1. Value of the Dollar"

    And how exactly is printing more money (in the form of "tax rebate" checks funded through deficit spending) going to increase the value of the dollar? (Source) Doesn't it do the exact opposite?

    "4. Percentage of bankruptcies caused by lack of health care coverage"

    And Obama would replace that number with the "percentage of Americans completely losing their property rights to socialism", which of course would be 100%. McCain is of course doing the same thing, though possibly to a lesser degree (or maybe he's just better at hiding it).

    "5. Number of houses lost to predatory lenders."

    I have no sympathy for people who sign contracts without reading them, nor for banks that associate with such shady sources. Companies and individuals that purposely do not investigate the risk of such endeavors will fall. It is not our responsibility to provide a safety net for bad practices - doing so brings the whole system down, because everyone starts thinking they can make mistakes and someone will protect them from the consequences (for free at that!)

    As for Iraq, all I see is a lot of empty talk from the candidates. I doubt either has a viable plan that is without dangerous consequences; they will instead elect to do nothing.

    1. Re:Dolt by SBacks · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have no sympathy for people who sign contracts without reading them, nor for banks that associate with such shady sources. Companies and individuals that purposely do not investigate the risk of such endeavors will fall. It is not our responsibility to provide a safety net for bad practices - doing so brings the whole system down, because everyone starts thinking they can make mistakes and someone will protect them from the consequences (for free at that!) I agree with you in principle. The "predatory" lending was completely laid out in the contracts people signed. However, many people (not the crowd that reads this) don't have even a slight understanding of what any of it means, let alone know how to realistically budget for years in advance or how to prepare for less than status quo times.

      Its people like this that lending laws are designed to protect. As uninformed as they may be, most/many of them are productive members of society.
    2. Re:Dolt by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Socialism? Bought into the right wing bullet points, huh?

      What "bullet points" are these. I'm going simply on the definition of socialism. Take a service, prevent private organizations from providing it, and have the government provide it instead, funded through forced taxation. That is what Obama wants to do with healthcare, and I'm sure McCain will support it when it's politically profitable too.

      "Just a matter of values, oh, and McCain is devoid of them."

      Agreed. Obama's only value is altruism, which he puts higher than all of our rights - to property, to privacy, and so on.

    3. Re:Dolt by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So socialized medicine, which has been proven to work far better than privatized medicine in the entire rest of the developed world, somehow equates to 100% of Americans losing their property rights?

      If socialism is so evil, I'm sure you'd like to do away with socialized armed forces, police, fire departments, roads, sewers, electric companies and all the other evil socialist practices America currently has?

      Where is Obama against privacy? Where is he against personal, as opposed to corporate property rights? You are simply scare mongering, not presenting a rational position.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    4. Re:Dolt by JustinOpinion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is not our responsibility to provide a safety net for bad practices - doing so brings the whole system down, because everyone starts thinking they can make mistakes and someone will protect them from the consequences (for free at that!) Your comment criticizes safety nets for irresponsible borrowing. But allow me to extend it to social programs in general (I'm not claiming this is your opinion, since I obviously don't know; I'm merely using your comment as a starting point for this thought...). Applied to social programs in general, your comment nicely highlights the difference in thinking between the two viewpoints.

      On the one side, you have people who believe that social safety nets bring down the whole system--because they are a burden to everyone (even those who are able to do without), and they allow people to be lazy.

      On the other side, you have people who believe that social safety nets bring up the whole system--because they limit the formation of a highly disenfranchised class (who then turn to crime, etc.), protect everyone (even those who have, so far, been lucky enough to not need them), and they allow people to take "risks" (like getting an education), which often leads to progress.

      Both viewpoints have some merit. On the balance, I think that a well-run social program can lift society more than the distributed burden it engenders (e.g. I think libraries do more good in educating than the cost we must communally bear to fund them). I do, however, agree that people need to take responsibility for their actions (e.g. irresponsible borrowing of money).
    5. Re:Dolt by WaZiX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's fine that they are still productive. But members of the public should not be forced to give up some of their own productivity (in the form of money) to support such individuals when they become unproductive. Unless not saving them would mean all our productivity would go down the drain... which is exactly the problem that we are facing today.
    6. Re:Dolt by SBacks · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So why do they sign the contract? Why do they not ask any questions about what is meant by the text they don't understand? They often times do. Unfortunately, they usually trust the lender or real estate agent to act in their best interest. And, in many cases, the agent will just lie or say that its just there for the lawyers.

      It's fine that they are still productive. But members of the public should not be forced to give up some of their own productivity (in the form of money) to support such individuals when they become unproductive. Why would I have to give up any of my money? Giving these people tax dollars isn't the solution. The lending companies are the ones that should be targeted. They can either be forced to remove all predatory practices (like increasing your interest rate by several hundred percent due to one late payment), or simply forced to erase the mortgage completely and give total ownership to the individuals.

      The only people hurt by that are the ones that work for/invest in the predatory lending companies. But, they're the ones I don't have any sympathy for. If I were to start up a company that sends out emails from Nigeria, the people investing in my company are much more to blame than the people that send me their bank account info in hopes of becoming rich.
    7. Re:Dolt by moderatorrater · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then prosecute for fraud and make the fraudster pay. Unless, as I suspect, they went in without doing the required research first and didn't read/understand the contracts they signed. Either way, there's no reason for me to pay for that mistake and they need to learn their lesson.

    8. Re:Dolt by sqrt(2) · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't think anyone has a right to keep 100% of the wealth they produce, unless maybe you live a completely self-sufficient self-sustaining lifestyle off the grid in some remote place. I recognize that an individual does have some responsibility to the collective society which allowed that individual to succeed. For the most part, far right-wingers and libertarians just want to take their ball and go home, forgetting that their success is in part due to the work done by others before them. Wanting to wiggle out of your responsibilities of the social contract while retaining the benefits is pretty self-centered and short sighted.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    9. Re:Dolt by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're confusing the issue; fraud has always been a problem, and when provable people have gone to jail.

      The reason for the current "crisis" (that's what they call everything now) is that people over-bought. They weren't exactly discouraged by the lenders from taking out loans that would have kept them living in poverty, but there was nothing fraudulent about it.

      I'm a good example... when I bought my house 10 years ago, the lender looked at my credit history (since vastly cleaned up) and said "With your income, we'd normally approve you up to $300,000, but you look like you have some debt..."

      To which I got all bug eyed and said "WHAT? That's ridiculous! I'm looking for, like, HALF that!"

      "Oh, OK then."

      But how many people would be like "$300k? Really? Wow, I could get a GREAT house for that!" I said that if I bought a house for that much (at the time), there'd be nothing left to buy things to put in it. I'd be a slave to the mortgage company. And it's not like I was experienced in the matter, it was my first house... I don't think it takes much brainpower to realistically figure out what you can pay.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    10. Re:Dolt by bbasgen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The government is charged with upholding rights. That is done through the courts and by force through through the executive branch. So of course we need armed forced and police to uphold our rights. You've made a leap in logic here, and it reveals the flaw in your premise on "rights". If force of arms is necessary to maintain property rights, then what do you suppose is necessary to provide equal rights? You can't, after all, use a gun to enforce free speech, but you can provide equal public access to the media. Just as you presume an innate property right, an equally axiomatic assumption can be made about a right to health care. You can't suggest that a property right is sustained in any way other than through redistribution of wealth, simply, it is a form of redistribution through which you approve (free market) rather than a redistribution that you loathe (communal funding).

      I'm just saying that such taxation is only justified if it is voluntary. No, you are actually saying taxation is only justified when it doesn't interfere with property rights. You've taken that single right and made it superior to all others; other rights exist only to the extent that they are subservient to that single right that you worship.
    11. Re:Dolt by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. Everyone has a right to property they freely acquired from other freely-acting individual. When the government (or anyone else) starts forcefully taking away that property, that right is being violated. Fine then, you don't want to be part of the public. You're hereby restricted from using any public property in any way and will be charged with trespass if you do. I think you need to use public property more than the other way around. Oh wait what's that? I hope you're not going to point so some silly paper like the constitution now, because it's the same silly paper that imposes taxes on you.

      So of course we need armed forced and police to uphold our rights. I'm just saying that such taxation is only justified if it is voluntary. Just as you freely choose to pay some amount for insurance against emergencies, you would also freely choose to pay toward upholding your rights (and the rights of everyone else). Tell the IRS that next time you see them. And are you suppose to go without due process if you haven't paid your Court Tax? You have a very disturbed ideal society.

      "fire departments, roads, sewers, electric companies and all the other evil socialist practices America currently has" Yes, there is no reason why these services could not be provided by private organizations, and in fact all of these services are and have been provided by private organizations. Ok, fire insurance is individual but tell me how a fire department is supposed to work... Are they going to check which tenants in my building have paid their fire department subscription, and save only those apartments? Or are they going to save the building and try presenting me with a bill for a job I didn't ask for?

      I suppose you could have a private interstate that you could charge toll on, but how the fuck would private roads operate? If you own the downtown roads, there's no way to build more without tearing down city blocks, not to mention the insane amounts of overpasses it would require to have separate road networks.

      Private sewage might work in rural areas, but try patching up a few city blocks with multiple independant sewage systems, particularly if some of them are asshats and won't let you pipe through even if you don't want their service all while keeping a downward flow in all pipes.

      None of these are going to happen, instead you'll create private mini-monopolies where there's no competition whatsoever. That is if you seriously want to privatize all that, not have the government hire private companies to run it (which would mean competition, but still paid for by tax dollars).

      Do you think you will have any control over your personal records (medical, financial, etc) under a system where an entity backed by force is controlling the service that is utilizing those records? You would be incorrect to assume that. So far, the track record is that you have zero control unless backed by law. It's also my impression that private companies are far more likely to break those laws in search of profit, while public companies use it a as lever to gain more funding. I actually prefer the latter.

      Both he and his wife have spoken very openly about altruism, which by definition must require the curbing (read: abolition) of property rights. Is there any color except black and white in your world? Don't you have say, restrictions on playing loud music at 3AM? OMG private property is abolished, welcome to Soviet America. Stay off the drugs, man.
      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    12. Re:Dolt by swillden · · Score: 3, Informative

      For the most part, far right-wingers and libertarians just want to take their ball and go home, forgetting that their success is in part due to the work done by others before them.

      Libertarians in no way forget the value that society has contributed to their own success, and they absolutely believe in providing benefit to society. They just don't recognize government as the agency that should be allowed to determine how those societal benefits are distributed.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  11. Re:Why McCain? by mikeee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apparently we're going to have to do the 60's-70's again to reintroduce people who weren't paying attention at the time to what it looks like when the country actually gets messed up. OMG, the economy is only growing at a 2.5% annualized rate and unemployment is over 5%!!!@!!!@!!

    Hopefully we can avoid disco this time.

  12. No, You. by bit+trollent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) And how exactly is printing more money (in the form of "tax rebate" checks funded through deficit spending) going to increase the value of the dollar? (Source) Doesn't it do the exact opposite? A tax rebate check is only printed money if you are running deficits like we are under Republican rule, not if you have a surplusses like we had by the time Bill Clinton left office.

    Not only that, but consider the difference between a one time stimulous check, and an occupation of a foreign country that costs us $341 Million per day and has left us less safe. That is $341 Million of printed money per day. Convenient you would forget about that

    4) And Obama would replace that number with the "percentage of Americans completely losing their property rights to socialism", which of course would be 100%. McCain is of course doing the same thing, though possibly to a lesser degree (or maybe he's just better at hiding it).

    The only alternative to letting people bankrupt themselves until they die broke, their illness untreated is to scare people with the idea of socialism. If you want to pay through the nose for health "coverage" that specifically excludes the pre-existing conditions you need it for, I support your right to do that.

    It is immoral to bankrupt people for getting sick and any society that has the ability to prevent this has a moral duty to. All other industrialized nations provide a health care system to their citizens that actually treats their conditions rather than just extracting as much money while providing as little healthcare as possible.

    5) have no sympathy for people who sign contracts without reading them, nor for banks that associate with such shady sources. Companies and individuals that purposely do not investigate the risk of such endeavors will fall.

    Falling home prices hurt everyone, not just people who took out bad loans - often while being tricked in to thinking they were agreeing to different terms. If you need to move for a job and find that your home is now worth significantly less than you paid for it, you are screwed.

    At that point do you give thanks to a regulatory system that let some slimey, deceptive, piece of shit make a buck at everyone else's expense?

    1. Re:No, You. by Moofie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not possible to make a free choice when your alternatives are:

      1) Pay for expensive treatments that your insurance has decided (arbitrarily) are not covered
      2) Die

      That's the very definition of "under duress".

      You pretend that there is a continuum of medical care available at varying prices and efficacies. That's simply not true.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    2. Re:No, You. by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "It is immoral to bankrupt people for getting sick and any society that has the ability to prevent this has a moral duty to."

      Who is "bankrupting" who? If people opt for expensive treatments, then they should pay for that treatment. Or, if they can't afford it, they should choose a less expensive treatment. If the government is preventing less expensive treatments from being available to the public (which is at the root of your concern), then such laws should be overturned, allowing less expensive treatments to exist. Because homeopathy is so much cheaper than chemotherapy and radiation.

      How much would you pay to alleviate your own suffering and avert your own death?
      For most people the answer is, "Everything I have."
      And also, for most people, the response to that is, "That's a good start, but it still isn't enough."

      Money is just a tool. It's an abstract representation of a civilization's capacity to solve problems, and only an indirect symbol of Liberty, not Liberty itself. There's only a small subset of society such as yourself who treat it as the Ultimate Goal. Keeping people alive is the ultimate goal.
      --
      There's a perfect xkcd for my sig but I'm too lazy to look it up. sudo someone go find it.
    3. Re:No, You. by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      I addressed that in the very next sentence that you conveniently disregarded... yeeesh...

      You didn't address it. You 'offered' this:

      If the government is preventing less expensive treatments from being available to the public (which is at the root of your concern), then such laws should be overturned, allowing less expensive treatments to exist.

      Do you really think the sole reason that health care is so prohibitively expensive is the Government preventing less expensive treatments from being available? Might it have anything to do with drug patents and pharmaceutical companies that spend more money on marketing than they do on research and development?

      That right there has always boggled my mind. Why the hell should drugs need to be marketed? "This is what our drug can treat, this is when you would prescribe it and these are the contraindications" seems to me to be the extent of the "marketing" that should be required for prescription drugs.

      The public services are funded through an unjustifiable rights violation

      I don't see any of the examples I cited as an "unjustifiable rights violation".

      Competition among private services gives private companies an incentive to provide the best possible service at the lowest price

      Is that why the cost of text messaging has increased from free to $0.02/ea to $0.10/ea to $0.15/ea to $0.20/ea? Is that why my cable bill goes up each year even though they face competition from satellite and even the telco (in some areas)? Is that why nearly every major credit card company adopts fee increases and draconian policies like universal default at the same time?

      I admire your faith in the free market but history doesn't seem to justify it. It seems to me that smaller more nimble companies will be focused on providing the best service at the best price but that eventually they grow to a size where it becomes easier to just gobble up most of the competition and establish a oligopoly with those that are too big to buy out. The cellular industry is the perfect example of this. We are now down to just four major carriers all of whom have the exact same anti-consumer policies. None of whom have any incentive to change them. All of whom are using their riches to buy up spectrum to stop anyone new from entering the market.

      I'll grant you that in some cases the Government deserves some blame for this (cable franchise agreements come to mind) but I just don't share your faith in that things would be any different under a true laissez-faire type system.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:No, You. by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is immoral to bankrupt people for getting sick

      The start voting against God. Life's a bitch. People get sick and it can take a tremendous amount of resources to even mitigate that, and even that isn't reliable.

      and any society that has the ability to prevent this has a moral duty to.

      No society (yet) has the ability to keep illness from happening or from being expensive. But maybe some day we'll be able to climb into our autodocs. I'm all for encouraging technological development, and making government stop actively doing things that cause health care to be even more expensive than it would naturally be.

      But shuffling around who pays for what, doesn't fix anything. All that indirection can accomplish, is create opportunities and incentives for irresponsibility and fraud. You can't have billions of dollars filtered through the government without having a lot of it disappear, and you can't have government encode how it will be spent, without removing human judgement.

      If you say other governments have done it successfully, fine. I'm very skeptical, but even if I accept that, I know my government (USA) is too irresponsible and corrupt to do it. Show me they can handle a small project where the stakes are small, and maybe I'll trust them with something more important. Every time a Democrat criticizes the war in Iraq, they need to realize they are also criticizing universal health care. They're talking about having the exact same kind of people who handled one situation, handle the other.

      Falling home prices hurt everyone

      I don't own a house. Personall, falling prices are the best news I've ever heard. The price of houses are starting to approach the value of houses. What's wrong with that?

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  13. Re:Depends on where you work. by tjstork · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Don't underestimate the importance of a strong Dollar for the US. With the USD losing value by the hour now, a lot of countries are pondering aloud whether they should accept other currencies in international trade.

    Let them. Let the price of European and Japanese goods rise so high that they do not export to the USA any more. I've got ten million US manufacturing workers ready to go back to work, and the unions to back them.

    Do you have a faint idea what it would mean for the USD if oil (or any internationally traded commodity that you have to import) was suddenly handled in EUR instead? Or what this would mean for the US economy? I doubt Ford can prop up that disaster!

    If worse comes to worse, the USA has 150,000 men sitting on top of 200 billion barrels of oil in Iraq. Do you really think it prudent that they leave at this time?

    But, be that as it may, its US corn and US wheat and US coal that are really driving exports right now. If the asian countries do not want to accept US dollars, than, certainly, we can demand that they pay for food in gold.

    --
    This is my sig.
  14. Re:It's not just the economy...... by porcupine8 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Republican excesses in areas like civil liberties

    You mean like that PRO-IP Act a few stories down, the one that turns a civil matter into a felony and gives the feds the right to confiscate your computer if they think you might have maybe downloaded something illegal? The one that was introduced by a Democrat and voted against by only 4 Democrats (and only 7 Republicans, don't worry, I fully acknowledge that they BOTH suck)?

    --
    Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
  15. Re:Why McCain? by Cornflake917 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Obama offers the American public the policy of surrender and blame America first. He has no plan for Iraq other than surrender, despite the success we've been having recently. I'm sorry, your regurgitation of conservative punditry is not adequate. You need to use the word "surrender" at least twice per sentence when describing Obama's exit plan to make the other side seem like a bunch of pussies.

    Last time I checked, Obama doesn't want American soldiers in Iraq to hold up white flags and then allow themselves to be help captive by insurgents. If you have legitimate reasons for not voting for Obama, then be my guest and vote for the candidate that will continue the policies that have brought the U.S. to where it's at now. However, you look like a complete, biased idiot when you use inaccurate and sensationalist words like "surrender" to describe a candidates policies.
  16. Re:Why McCain? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This alone is reason enough for me to vote against him. No matter if the alternative is a water cooler.

    Think about what "lower taxes" basically means. Lower taxes means less money in governmental pockets. Thus less governmental spending (or increasing the national debt, either way you're fu..ed). Less fed spending means less money for public schools, less money for roads, less money for wellfare, less...

    Wait, you don't care about wellfare you say? Doesn't affect you? It does.

    Allow me to tell you something about my country, in Europe. We pay taxes that would make your head spin. All in all, when my buck is spent, only about 30 cents thereof go to some sort of good or service, the rest is siphoned away in taxes, directly or indirectly. Wage tax, healthcare tax, VAT... pretty much the only thing not taxed is taxes. And you pay extra tax on alcohole, fuel, housing, you name it.

    In other words, my country has quite a bit of cash to spend. And they do. Wellfare checks are about a thousand bucks a month. You can easily live on that. If you have family, you get more. And your rent is paid as well.

    Why does that affect me, when I have to work so that moocher can sit on his lazy ass and get fat? Because people have something to lose. People who don't have anything to lose don't care if they have to bash your head in for the 20 bucks you have on you.

    Our crime rate is low. Incredibly low. I live in the capital, still a murder makes the evening news, and is certainly the headline of tomorrow's papers. It happens once a year, so it's quite some event!

    What I want to say is that you have to pay for what you want, one way or another. When you're done paying for healthcare, security (which includes living in a "good" neighborhood, buying some alarm system and maybe even hiring security goons), retirement and other insurances, you're probably where I am.

    Though I'd guess, you have less money on your hands than I do. Despite paying about 30% of my income directly in taxes, and another 50% indirectly.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  17. Re:Go Obama!! by scipiodog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Go Obama!! Don't you mean Ron Paul? No, because I've actually studied economics (as opposed to reading a few Ayn Rand novels).

    Yes, of course, and Ron Paul hasn't studied, for example, Ludwig Von Mises, Frederik Hayek, and other noted economists...

    Just because he doesn't subscribe to your Keynesian theories (or whatever other current fad they taught you) doesn't mean he's wrong.

    I think you'll find that many people who've actually studied economics seriously also agree with much of what he says - it's not as if he's invented a new economic theory, he is an advocate of the Austrian school of economics. Nothing to do with Ayn Rand (although there are similarities.)

    But, looking at it that way might make a little harder to blindly dismiss him as trivial, wouldn't it? So, let's not do that.

    --
    http://clightnirish.wordpress.com/
  18. Classic Rookie mistake. People are not logical. by DrJimbo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unfortunately, I think there are going to be powerful dark forces at work to try get the Republicans back in again. People are easily swayed. Another terrorist attack in the USA I think could sway the elections. That after 8 years, Republicans can't protect America? You need to read New World, New Mind by Robert E. Ornstein and Paul Ehrlich. Pdf's available here.

    The book explains that people are not rational or logical especially when it comes to risk assessment. The best recent example (the book was written in 1989) is America's reaction to the 9/11 attacks. More people died of hunger that day than were killed in the attack. The US response to the attacks was totally illogical because people felt threatened and this caused them to stop using the higher levels of their brains. They instead, reverted to their reptilian "flight or fight" instincts.

    Another similar (or worse) attack will most likely produce a similar response from the American people. They will stop thinking rationally, which is probably the only way the Republicans can beat Obama on November 4th.

    --
    We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
    -- Anais Nin
  19. Re:Go Obama!! by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While the Austrian school economists are a step up, they still have an inordinate fondness for self-evident propositions that aren't self-evident (particularly, the action axiom). Unprovable statements that one claims are "self-evident" is just a disease of rational thought.

  20. Externalities by TerranFury · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dude, you're not thinking clearly. Commercial transactions don't capture all value.

    I live in a city. When there are a ton of desperate poor around, it affects my quality of life. I can't go outside at night.

    By myself, I cannot do a damn thing to change this: I do not have the resources. If we want to change the city, we require collective action. Government is the means by which collective action is achieved.

    If an epidemic spreads through the city, simply having enough money to pay for my own medical bills isn't enough. No: What was really needed was for the first poor schmuck who caught the disease to begin with and started spreading it around to have received adequate medical care before the situation ballooned out of control.

    Libertarianism is dogs eating dogs. You might win, but it won't have been very pleasant for you even if you do.

  21. Re:Classic Rookie mistake. People are not logical. by Omestes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's like being bitten by a snake. I do not turn around and reason with the snake. I cut its head off.

    Yes, we should NEVER reason with people, only chop their heads off. Perhaps understanding WHY 9/11 happened would have been a good thing, it would have probably have been better to do that before ensuring that more people want to blow us up.

    snakes != collections of people

    I might remind you that the "intellectual classes" are the FIRST people who are off'd after a military coup. Not because of their intelligence, but because they are quick and easy prey who only realize their mistake when it's too late. Stalin called them "useful idiots." OTOH, those so-called "reptilian flight or fight" instincts have a lot to be said for and have kept our butts alive for millions of years.

    Anti-intellectual movements FTW! Look what electing a moron (which is the opposite of intellectual) got us. I don't want "folk" running our country, folk are ignorant, superstitious, illiterate, yokels, with no ability to reason in advance, or ponder consequences of their actions.

    No one in power should be common. My experience with the common, non-educated, man is not encouraging.

    --
    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  22. Re:Rock and hard place by Omestes · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm an even bigger wacko... I have empathy for the poor, and don't want to see anyone suffer. I also missed the day when they were passing out the Ayn Rand kool-aid, and thus don't see pure greed as a valid ethical stance, and thus don't feel bad forcing inhumane people to act humanely.

    People should always come first, period.

    Granted I don't think we should elevate the poor to the level of the rich, or topple the rich to the middle class or below, achievement does have some worth, but there comes a point where too much is too much. Eventually greed begins to cost civilization as a whole, and at that point society should demand it fixed.

    Often times libertarianism comes across as sociopathy. I have meet some sane libertarians, but they seem to be the exception, and not the rule.

    --
    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  23. Libertarianism is also unstable by Stephen+Ma · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Libertarianism is also unstable: it's extremely likely to decay to fascism or feudalism. A few libertarians know this and are eagerly looking forward to it. The vast bulk of them are too stupid to realize how badly they are being duped.

    In a libertarian country, who would prevent the Mafia from taking over? Certainly not the government, which would be so tiny it may as well not exist. Most libertarians have never even considered this vital question. The question is of primary importance because it directly addresses the stability and therefore the durability of a libertarian society.

    A few might offer up the feeble answer, "hire a private security firm against the Mafia", but this is not looking far enough ahead. Nothing would prevent these firms from merging with each other or with the Mafia, and growing ever more powerful. And as history teaches us again and again, power corrupts. Eventually, some sufficently merged security firm would become your lord and master, and you would be at its mercy.

    Isn't it obvious how easily a libertarian society could descend to feudalism or fascism?