$50 to Get XP On a New Dell

CWmike writes "Dell will charge customers up to $50 for factory-installed Windows XP on some PCs after Wednesday, according to the company's Web site. Buyers of the low-priced Vostro line of desktops and notebooks will pay $20 to $50 more for Windows XP Professional installed as a 'downgrade' from Windows Vista Business or Vista Ultimate than they would for Vista only."

Comments

It's like divorce

[Trigun]

it's expensive, but it's worth it.

Re:It's like divorce

[memojuez]

It's a pretty sad statement about a product when people are willing to pay MORE not to use it.

Forget about Apple Mr. Gates, you're doing a good job of self-destructing.

Re:It's like divorce

[Vectronic]

Yeah, and the reason for the divorce?

She's gaining weight and trying to control you.

Re:It's like divorce

[GreyWolf3000]

I want the Operating System I married 5-7 years ago!

Re:It's like divorce

[frosty_tsm]

Or she's cheating on you.

Re:It's like divorce

[CastrTroy]

It's only sad because MS spent 5+ years working on Vista, and now people want to pay not to use it. It's not sad in the more general sense, that people want to pay more to use a better product.

Re:It's like divorce

[192939495969798999]

And just like divorce, the one you switch to is lighter weight, less nag-y, and easier to use. In this case it is older but it also has more experience.

Re:It's like divorce

[Jhon]

I would have paid $50 to have Win98 installed over ME a number of years ago. It's somehow comforting to know that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re:It's like divorce

[g0bshiTe]

MS business model

1. Write software that works 90% of the time and crashes randomly 10% of the time (who cares the 10% is during critical computing)
2. Wait, release patches.
3. Release new version of OS so crappy the public will be happy to use the 90% ware and pay to downgrade
4. Profit

Re:It's like divorce

[hkgroove]

XP is officially a cougar.

Re:It's like divorce

[BigJClark]

This is because of the requirement of having a fscking graphics card to run an OS.

Historically, its been the other way around :/

Re:It's like divorce

[ohcrapitssteve]

That is pretty funny, but interestingly enough, the original XBOX360 dev kits were Apple G5s (IBM PPC 970) running some kind of NT kernel. At some video game industry shows, playable game demos were actually running on Apple G5 workstations.

Re:It's like divorce

[Peet42]

It's not sad in the more general sense, that people want to pay more to use a better product.

Indeed, but for my $50 I would rather have a properly supported version of Windows 2000. It's all been downhill since there.

Re:It's like divorce

[TeamSPAM]

I guess Apple will have to avoid using cougar as a code name for OS X. Don't want MS suing you for creating confusion in the marketplace.

Re:It's like divorce

[smitty97]

Doesnt surprise me, Halo was originally demoed at MacWorld- it was supposed to be a Mac game.

Re:It's like divorce

[morgan_greywolf]

Nice the generic windows diss... My only question is, What of us gamers running win boxes that are rock solid? And have never had anything but a rock solid box? Aside from the odd hardware failures that is... ;)

DirectX is a fantastic API that allows developers to effectively bypass some pretty piss-poor Win32 APIs. Games are written for DirectX, not for Windows. The fact is that DirectX runs in other environments, like Xbox and Xbox360. If all you're doing is gaming, then you shouldn't be surprised if your box is 'rock solid.'

Re:It's like divorce

[kyz]

It'd probably be more solid if you filled it with cement... Microsoft already offer that:
http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/

Re:It's like divorce

[Phroggy]

The difference is, nobody was offering Win98 for $50 more back then.

Re:It's like divorce

[mrchaotica]

"Activation." (I.e., having to beg somebody for permission to use your own property.)

Re:It's like divorce

[Peet42]

It may just be me, but *every* Micro$oft default in XP needs to be reversed before I can live with it. And, while it's not as bad as Vista, it still has the occasional habit of asking "Are you sure you want to do that?" and when you say "Yes" it'll do something, but quietly revert to its previous default after a reboot. It was the first generation of "Micro$oft Knows Best".

And it's a fallacy that XP runs significantly more packages than 2000 does. It's just that Micro$oft rewrote their installers to check and exit if they were run under 2000. I have successfully installed and used several "XP Only" packages under 2000 by using a hacked set of installer DLLs.

Re:It's like divorce

[Dekortage]

That's because Bungie was originally a Mac-only game developer. Then MS bought 'em for Halo, and nixed all their Mac development.

Re:It's like divorce

[mrchaotica]

A piece of software is in no way "your own property", just like every other piece of Imaginary Property.

I think you're confused; My copy is my property, and the claims that it isn't because it's Imaginary are just that: imaginary themselves!

Re:It's like divorce

[Kjella]

WinME is just the wierdest release Microsoft ever did, only one year after 98SE and a year before XP Home, both technically and marketwise. In retrospect I think it was the Golgafrincham B Ark of Microsoft developers, where all the good brainpower was transferred to the 2k/XP line while those too incompetent to bring on and yet not incompetent enough to outright fire were left on the 98/ME line. The bean counters wanted some ROI so instead of releasing a service pack to 98 and so WinME came to be. I don't think Vista can be described in much the same way.

That said, many people would use XP because it's XP and for no other reason. It has all the buttons in the right places and works exactly the same as it's "supposed to" work. Let others figure out the funny stuff for you, then you migrate when you need to. I migrated from 2000 SP4 to XP SP2, now I run XP in a virtualbox under Linux but maybe someday I'll upgrade to a Vista version too. Not today though, not tomorrow either.

Re:It's like divorce

[DrVomact]

I'm curious: what makes XP "downhill" from 2000? Because I used both, and XP feels like a cleaner version of 2000 (once you turn off theming, anyway).

So you judge an OS by the quality of its GUI? By that measure, I'd say Win 2000 wins (the two OSs pretty well come out even on every other measure). XP definitely had a far more irritating GUI than Win 2000. I don't remember what "theming" is, but I remember having to:

• Turn off balloon "help"
• Turn off "notifications" (balloons that nag you from the task bar (I think that required a reg edit)
• Reverting to Windows "classic"
  • folders
  • windows
  • menus
• Turning off the wonderful "firewall"
• Telling XP not to hide "inactive" icons in the tool bar.
• Generally finding every option that tells XP to STFU

Only time I ever found a reason to prefer XP over 2000 was when I was messing with wireless, and learned that it was a pain to support anything better than WEP encryption on 2000 (something MS could have easily done in a patch). Only reason I've been paying for XP these days is that it will be supported with fixes for all those security holes longer than 2000.

Re:It's like divorce

[TheNetAvenger]

The fact is that DirectX runs in other environments, like Xbox and Xbox360. If all you're doing is gaming, then you shouldn't be surprised if your box is 'rock solid.'


1) Environments would not be the correct term.
2) XBox and XBox360 both run Windows- XBox is Win2K, XBox360 is XP x64.

This whole thread is based on the premise that Windows crashes, and reliability studies continue to show that since Win2k and XP, crashes are as rare on Windows as they are on any other OS. Vista so far is reporting to be even more stable than any OS, which is a bit surprising.

Windows stability issues is an old tale that needs to finally stop. People stopped bitching about Apple OS 9 when it was replaced with OS X, yet people still make fun of Windows based on the Win9x era.

Windows users don't see crashes, this is not the Win9x kernel era, the 'Windows crashes all the time' myth crap needs to stop once and for all...

Re:It's like divorce

[mrchaotica]

Right. And my point was the contrapositive: since it is really my property, then I shouldn't have to beg someone else's permission to use! That's why XP is intolerable compared to 2000.

It's an upgrade,

[El_Muerte_TDS]

why else would you pay more.

Downgrade?

[sconeu]

If it's a "Downgrade", shouldn't it be *CHEAPER*?????

Re:Downgrade?

[indifferent children]

XP is smaller, faster, less buggy, and doesn't come encumbered with a ton of DRM crap. How is that a "downgrade"?

Re:Downgrade?

[tambo]

If it's a "Downgrade", shouldn't it be *CHEAPER*?????

It's a "downgrade" only because Microsoft wants to preserve the illusion that Vista is better, and the pricing is set to discourage people from buying it.

But, yes... a significant share of the consumer market, and practically *all* of the informed market, consider XP a vastly improved upgrade over Vista.

I've been using Microsoft OSes since MS-DOS 3.2 (circa 1988), and I've never been nearly as frustrated, disappointed, and often outraged by an OS as I am with Vista. I've been using it for two months, and it's horrid in many, many aspects.

I have been making a list of irritations that are novel to Vista. Every time I run across some new irritant, I pop open this text file and add a line to it. I am also making a list of Vista features that I have turned off because they are buggy, poorly implemented, resource hogs, unsecure, frustrating to use, etc., etc. They are both very long lists, and they continue to grow.

Re:Downgrade?

[TheGratefulNet]

and doesn't come encumbered with a ton of DRM crap

its all relative, isn't it?

compare win2k that had NO activation and you could copy the system disk from one box to another and it would work fine (if the hardware/kernel were compatible).

I am forced to use an acronis (or similar) tool to dupe my system disk. that hurdle should NOT exist but XP sure does like to stop you doing things you need to, at the system level.

not to mention activation, which kept a lot of people OFF xp and made win2k the last 'great' os from MS.

the only useful xp is a corp edition (non activation), sp2, pre-WGA. all others are bolloxed-up. (fwiw, at least SP3 on xp didn't turn on WGA on the corp version I tested it with. so a corp SP2 with SP3 update still seems 'mostly safe' to use).

Or...

[oodaloop]

you could just get Ubuntu from Dell. Hell, I'd take one of their DOS machines before buying Vista.

Re:$50 for assurance of less headache ?

[KiltedKnight]

Then how much would you pay for Ubuntu, which causes even fewer headaches than Windows XP as long as GNU/Linux supports your hardware?

Why, nothing of course. :)

other side of the coin

[night_flyer]

As opposed to buying a copy of XP from someone else for $150?

What about refunds?

[MarcoG42]

So, when I get the PC home do I get to not accept the EULA, and call for a rebate of the cost of Vista + the $20-$50 more I payed for my "downgrade?"

Better idea:

[Penguinisto]

How much would they add as a surcharge to ship any model I choose WITHOUT a Microsoft operating system on it?

As in: "...can you just send me the laptop with nothing at all installed on the hard disk? I intend to install (Ubuntu/Fedora/OpenSuSE) on it. No, I really don't want anything in the way of tech support outside of parts and labor."

/P

It's Twitter, Slashdot Duped Again!

[Anonymous Coward]

This story is a cut and paste job from Twitter's journal, made within two hours of the twitter post. CWMike must be another Twitter sock puppet and this story is just more hysterical FUD about Vista.

Re:It's Twitter, Slashdot Duped Again!

[eln]

Who cares who posted it, it's a legitimate news story from a fairly reliable source (computer world). This story is of interest to the tech world in general.

And no, I'm not a twitter sock puppet, and I generally think he's kind of over the top, but this article looks like a pretty straightforward summary of the article it links to. This particular piece is not in any way "hysterical FUD." Do you add anyone who responds to twitter's posts or reads his journal to his list of sock puppets?

Labor ain't free

[RingDev]

The HD's are likely all imaged with a single Vista image. In order to mass market XP, they will likely have to re-tool slightly to continue producing XP imaged drives in addition to Vista imaged drives. It's not much, but it does add to the labor, and while $50 is a bit steep, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the combination of tooling, labor, and licensing adds up to close to that amount.

-Rick

Re:Labor ain't free

[zappepcs]

The costs that you spoke of have already been paid for. It's part of the taking Vista on as a new product process. The hardware/factory space etc. required is the same for both Vista and XP. Since OEMs are not producing imaged HDs 24/7, building 2 different but equally supported (in the factory) systems is neither more difficult or more expensive than doing just one. They have to support how many versions of Vista? They supported all those versions of Vista while they were still supporting versions of XP but now the price is increased?

There is far more to this than manufacturing costs.

Re:$50 for assurance of less headache ?

[Penguinisto]

Then how much would you pay for Ubuntu, which causes even fewer headaches than Windows XP as long as GNU/Linux supports your hardware?

...as much free tech support for it (Ubuntu, or any Linux distro, really) as my friends and relatives can stand.

...time and effort in teaching others (including random strangers) how to use it if they ask.

...time and effort in explaining in detail how I manage to get neat stuff to happen on it (e.g. getting the Windows version of the 3D app Poser to work in OpenSuSE).

...any and all code modifications that I make to customize and/or bugfix any open-source component of it - even if I don't distribute the binaries or project source code myself.

(there are many more ways, but yeah - it's worth paying-back that way, if not in other ways as well).

/P

A respectable number

[tepples]

Didn't you hear? There are now 42 games for Linux. And once you include all the free-and-Free games in Ubuntu's repository, you have more games than were released for the Atari 7800 (60 titles) and Virtual Boy (22) put together. And no, not all of them are just Tetris clones either.

Re:A respectable number

[Jasonjk74]

And most of those games are still on an Atari 7800 level in 2008. And before I'm told that I don't understand Linux/FOSS; I use Linux every day, but the Linux gaming situation is pitiful. Now, I'll expect one of the following responses from someone here: 1. "But it runs World of Warcraft (in Wine)!" 2. "Linux users aren't worried about games, buy an XBox 360. Lack of games is a feature of Linux!"

Microsoft Monopoly

[mlwmohawk]

Yet again we see proof that Microsoft has a monopoly. If there were real competition in the market, people would not be forced to bend over and pay more. There would be competition, Dell would have to offer it at the same price or another operating system would win.

Also, if there were competition, Microsoft would not have the economic ability to decide to drop a product that people wanted and force them into something they didn't. If I was a share holder and there was actual competition in the market place, I'd have the board and CEO fired for failing their fiduciary responsibilities.

But since they have a monopoly, there is no economic feedback.

Re:Wasting money

[LWATCDR]

How bad is Vista? Well that depends. The UAC does break a good amount of software that works just fine on XP.
Also the journal playback doesn't work with the UAC turned on. It was a security issue but it is also how some programs did simple macros and allowed you to create applications that pushed text into other windows apps.
Also the USB system seems to have some bugs in it.
Also the sound system can be really odd at times. Some computers produce really crappy sound if you record at less than 16 bit 22 khz stereo. That shouldn't be an issue for just recording voice.
It does use more disk space and memory than XP.
It is also different and often it seems like it is different not to be better but to just be different.
So as you have put it if you turn off all the extras then it isn't that bad.
But if you turn off all the extras is it any better than XP?
That is what makes Vista so bad. It really is a lot to some pain for little to no gain.
XP works as well as Vista, uses less resources, and everybody knows most of it's quirks and problems. I feel that Vista is a case of not worth it. And what I find shocking is that most of the normal users out there feel the same way.

Re:Wasting money

[Rary]

So the question is, from what I understand, if you turn off all the extras, Vista is not that bad. I don't suppose I can get an unbiased assessment on slashdot, though. Is it really that buggy? More than XP?

There are a handful of people here on Slashdot who actually like Vista and admit it. I'm one of them.

I haven't turned off any of the extras. Regarding the eye candy, they did an awesome job. It's a slick looking user interface. Regarding performance, it runs beautifully on my Acer laptop (1.6 GHz dual core, 2 GB RAM, GeForce Go7300).

The biggest annoyance for me is the automatic horizontal scrolling in the folder pane of Windows Explorer. I absolutely hate it and want to turn it off, but there is no option.

I've only encountered two actual bugs, and they were both extremely minor. One of them I only encountered once, and can't actually remember what it is right now. The other is just a small bug that occurs when you create a new folder and then try to rename it too quickly.

Overall, I'm happy with it.

Staying with Windows 2000

[Animats]

I'm still running Windows 2000 on the last Windows machine. It's so drama-free. No pushed updates, no annoying popups from Microsoft, no crashes in years.

You run Windows 2000. XP is tied to the mothership in Redmond. With Vista, Microsoft runs you.

Re:XP crashes apps minutes after installing

[furrydave]

If it was an HP, then it's not XP's fault. HP, especially their 2000 series laptops, do not have any drivers for XP. Or rather, they don't work. I have Vista on my HP 2000 laptop, and Ubuntu 8.04. Both work great. XP just isn't worth the hassle to try to install because the drivers aren't there. Now on my desktop, I have all 3 installed, and I've never run into a situation where my PC ran better in Vista then it did in XP. XP is just faster and more solid then Vista. Ubuntu cleans house over both MS products...

5+ Years

[Kozar_The_Malignant]

I think this is a big part of the problem. When you have that kind of time line, the project loses focus. Remember all of the things that were supposed to be in Vista but were dropped along the way? There never seemed to be a clear vision of what it was supposed to be. It doesn't have to be that way. NASA certainly has shown that long term projects can have spectacular results.

Re:5+ Years

[timeOday]

It doesn't have to be that way. NASA certainly has shown that long term projects can have spectacular results.

Linux has shown that OS development doesn't have to be phased in huge long-term projects in the first place. The kernel changes continuously, often supporting both the current "best" way of doing something as well as the previous "deprecated" interface that will disappear after a few years.

Now, you could say "you can't leap a chasm two inches at a time," but where is the great leap forward with Vista?

Re:5+ Years

[TimothyDavis]

Do you also remember Microsoft dropping work on Vista to heavily invest in XP.SP2? Do you remember the significant changes that went into security training and code analysis to finally work on securing Windows?

The ship took a massive course change during the product cycle for Vista - which changed what the priorities were for the final release. This should not be overlooked.

Don't get me wrong, the Vista that did ship was a huge piece of junk - but SP1 has fixed many of the significant problems people faced. Now if they would just work on the fit and finish, and the bloat, it would be a good OS.

As for Dell charging more for XP, you *do* realize that it costs Dell money to test and support this OS on their hardware, right? Many of the device driver models changed between XP and Vista - much of this was to sandbox drivers or move them out of the kernel. This is a good thing.

At this point the demand for XP has dropped to a minority share - so why *not* pass the cost to the folks who are generating it? Do you think that you can reasonably request Dell put Win98SE on your machine for no extra charge?

Re:Wasting money

[Rogerborg]

We had the same type and level of whining when switching from 2000 to XP, or from 98SE to 2000. Anyone here want to go back to either of those two?

"go back"? I'm still waiting for a compelling reason to upgrade from 2K to XP. Seriously.

Hello! You get both operating systems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Look folks, the reason for the extra $50 is simple. You get both Vista AND XP.

I know it's a lot more fun to misinterpret the summary, then comment on your misinterpretation. But if you actually RTFA, it's not so sensational.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey look, this is the HOLY CRAP MS IS TEH SUCK party. You take your logic elsewhere.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[Just Some Guy]

Look folks, the reason for the extra $50 is simple. You get both Vista AND XP.

For probably 90% of the people paying extra to get XP, that's functionally identical to getting only XP.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[MrMacman2u]

Soooo... two pieces of crap for the price of one?

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[NiceGeek]

If you refuse to take Vista do you get the $50 back? No? Then people are still paying $50 to avoid using Vista.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[CastrTroy]

I don't think it's MS that is charging you more. I think it's Dell, who is charging you for the work involved in doing the downgrade. You could do it at home by yourself, without incurring any extra cost.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[sm62704]

Look folks, the reason for the extra $50 is simple. You get both a rabid dog, AND dogshit.

I know it's a lot more fun to make fun of the summary, than to commit Microsoft executives to an insane asylum. But if you actually use Windows, it's not so pathetic.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[hansamurai]

Yes, but Microsoft gets to say they sold a copy of Vista too, padding their sales charts.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[Jason Earl]

These people are paying an extra $50 off of the most expensive versions of Vista so that they can run Windows XP. People that are willing to pay a premium to run XP are not excited about the fact that they get Vista as well.

Seriously, if these thought that Vista was worth running, they'd save their $50 and run Vista. There is essentially no way to spin this that is good for Microsoft or Vista. Heck, downgrading to Windows XP on most computers of the Vostro line (which ship with Vista Home Basic by default) adds $150 to the price tag.

Re:Hello! You get both operating systems.

[Just Some Guy]

Yes, but you can't really market that as a benefit to Dell's customers. "Buy XP! Help MS cook the books for only $50!"

Re:$50 for assurance of less headache ?

[flappinbooger]

So it's $50 for labor?

Is this for real? Any copy of vista you pay for you can take an OEM CD of XP and install it and you're legal?

What code do you enter when it asks? The one for the vista install? Does it activate? Who has done this?

Most people will have a copy of XP around, probably OEM. I have a CD for pro and home, so this may just make the vista thing a non-issue. You're still buying a copy of AN operating system, there's just an extra step of the format/reinstall to fix it.

tooling/labor/licensing costs... what???

[JonTurner]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the combination of tooling, labor, and licensing adds up to close to that amount. Because, as we all know, this is the first time they have ever sold Windows XP and they have to create the entire install and assembly process from scratch and re-engineer their business process to support this extremely rare special case...

Yes, that was sarcasm.

Re:tooling/labor/licensing costs... what???

[RingDev]

I appreciate your sarcasm, but have you ever run a low overhead high efficiency production line?

If you have exactly the right amount of resources to distribute Vista as per your current plan, where are you going to get the resources to distribute XP? Sure, maybe it's 1 extra man-hour a day to get the installs done, or to swap bins and output trays for pre-loaded XP hard drives. But that's 1 hour of labor that you have to pay for only because you are offering XP. 1 hour could be $20 payment for a union factory worker with seniority. Figure another $10 in taxes, SS, UE, etc on top of that, $4 to the health care plan, and another $1 to the retirement plan. You've just paid an extra $35 for 1 hour of labor.

Now you also need to update your sales catalog to reflect the new availability and pricing.

Update you web site to include the configuration option.

Update your marketing material to let consumers know they have the choice.

Update your support documentation so that your Tier 1 script readers know to ask "Do you have Windows XP or Vista?"

Duplicate your warehouse and distribution organization to handle identical models of PCs and laptops with both OS's.

Continuously review production and sales data to determine if you need to increase, decrease, or suspend production of XP PC/Laptops.

etc...

And, if what another commenter has mentioned is true, about Dell no longer having distribution rights to XP to allow them to use pre-loaded HD's, you are looking at having to pay the labor to have each and every laptop loaded manually.

So yeah, it costs a bit extra for them to offer it. Could part of the $50 be due to MS trying to push them away from the selling it? Likely. Could some of the $50 be due to Dell trying to dissuade people from buying it? Also likely. But to claim that running extra product varieties on an existing production line will not increase production costs is just short sighted.

-Rick

Re:I'm in the minority

[Anonymous Coward]

I rooted her box.

Re:$50 for assurance of less headache ?

[cjb658]

According to this, business and ultimate are eligable for a free downgrade to XP Professional:

Rights to OEM versions of systems software are granted in the OEM License Terms. The OEM License Terms for most OEM versions of systems software do not grant downgrade rights. The exception is the OEM License Terms for the Windows® XP Professional operating system and the Windows Vistaâ Business and Windows Vista Ultimate operating systems, which grant downgrade rights. See the full text of the OEM License Terms for the specific downgrade rights.

I want to see how they plan on downgrading...

[Khyber]

Considering NVIDIA is too lazy to put in a simple entry in their driver's .INF file so their newer mobile cards would work in XP I want to see how many of the newer model laptops could POSSIBLY downgrade without doing what I had to do - hack the .INF and get the deviceid in there so XP would see the hardware (8600M GS).

Seriously, people at NVIDIA must be REALLY LAZY to not include one line of code into an .INF file so their card would work under XP (since they ARE using a unified driver architecture and all for the very purpose of keeping things compatible across the board)

Sometimes

[InvisiBill]

http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/2/3/d23b9533-169d-4996-b198-7b9d3fe15611/downgrade_chart.doc

Rights to OEM versions of systems software are granted in the OEM License Terms. The OEM License Terms for most OEM versions of systems software do not grant downgrade rights. The exception is the OEM License Terms for the Windows® XP Professional operating system and the Windows Vistaâ Business and Windows Vista Ultimate operating systems, which grant downgrade rights. See the full text of the OEM License Terms for the specific downgrade rights.

How about a better deal?

[cayenne8]

How about an even better deal.

Dell sells you the box without any software or OS installed, and takes $50 off the price?