Slashdot Mirror
Bavarian Police Can Legally Place Trojans On PCs
An anonymous reader writes "The Bavarian Parliament passed a law that allows Bavarian police to place 'Remote Forensic Software' (Google translation) on a suspect's computer as well as on the computers of a suspect's contacts. They may break into houses in secret to install the RFS if a remote installation is not possible; and while they are there a (physical) search is permitted too. The RFS may be used to read, delete, and alter data." The translation says that RFSs may be used in cases of an "urgent threat to the existence or the security of the Federation or a country or physical, life or liberty of a person... Even where there is a reasonable assumptions on concrete preparatory acts for such serious offenses."
but does the trojan run on linux?
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
In my ignorance, I asked myself "where the hell is Bavaria?". So I wiki'd it. Turns out, it's in Germany.
The more you know...
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
Does this imply that they can install a virus on my PC in Canada if I'm talking to a suspect in Bavaria?
I hope not.
Will this code be safe? What if it opens the infected PC up to access by hackers and the PC is damaged or materials (virtual) are stolen? Is there any liability for the police?
Who stole my key?
I thought that the memories of the Geheime Staatspolizei made sure the germans would never approve of such things...
Polizei in lederhosen kann deine computerhosen.
Um, "forensic" software is typically designed to *prevent* the alteration of data. Otherwise you can't reliably go into court and prove that you haven't planted the evidence. Last I heard, Germany still embraced the concept of due process...
Not sure whether this is a crazy law passed by some locals that will be struck down by German courts, a bad write up, or a bad translation...
I know this is slashdot and jumping at anything so we can scream 1984!!! POLICE STATE!!11!!! gets you modded informative or insightful, but this slashdot article is just crap.
The "Bundestrojaner" will only be used as a last resort and in defense to terrorism, as you can read here in an article posted today, denying the Bavarian request to use it for other crimes not directly related to terrorism.
Poor google translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2FBundesrat-will-heimliche-Online-Durchsuchungen-auf-Terrorabwehr-beschraenken--%2Fmeldung%2F110466&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=de&tl=en
Ah, screw it. 1984!!! ORWELLIAN STATE!! BURN THE WITCHES!
Yeah it's funny when you put it that way, but that's how it usually is. When a government takes an action under the guise of national security, the nation is actually less secure because a stronger government is a greater threat to liberty.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
...the point! http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9159/germanybavariaalpschurcob4.jpg
Thats simply because not enough of it is on fire to make it stand out on google earth!
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
If you encrypt your drive, and don't leave it running while you are gone, unless they guess your password not much they can do.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The "Bundestrojaner" will only be used as a last resort and in defense to terrorism
when the law that allows the police to monitor ALL communication (email, gsm, landline) at all times, without needing any warrant was passed here, (turkey) and gave the daily running of the operation to a small board that would be directly appointed by the prime minister and his cabinet, many idiots believed that 'only as a last resort and in defense against terrorism' bullshit too.
...
then somehow the private conversations of opposition party members who have had a strife with the administration have been leaked to the newspapers and media that were backing the administration. then the private conversations of state attorneys have somehow leaked to the same islamist newspapers. then suddenly the conversations of generals that are opposed to the islamist party (the military is tasked with ensuring the continuance of secular, western style republic, according to turkish laws) have somehow slipped to islamist newspapers backing the administration.
yea. there were idiots who were believing that it would only be used as a last resort and against terrorism here too
Read radical news here
If the software they install can delete and alter files, how can any evidence they procure be admissible in a court of law?
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
Bill Clinton had Carnivor and Magic lantern for this sort of thing long before Bush was even in the White House, around 1995.
The Federal government has been violating due process and the US Constitution since FDR was in office.
Don't try and pretend that Bush was the first to do this sort of thing with the Patriot Act, all he did was use it to amend the Constitution.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
in a court of law even if the trojan is programmed to download porn and other things over the Internet. I can recall American employers using trojans like that to fake employees surfing the Internet too much to fire them for it. "He surfed for porn for more than 5 hours each day, so he fired him" when really the trojan surfed porn and planted it on his computer. They do that sort of thing when they want to discriminate against an employee for their religion, race, color, national origin, disability, age, gender, or whatever. It is a way to avoid discrimination laws and civil rights, just fake evidence that the employee did something wrong and that is good enough to get a court to agree with you that you didn't violate his/her rights.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
What puzzles me is why this would be something the Bavarian Parliment would do. I would think this would be done at the national level; US laws that enable wiretaps are all at the Federal level.
They tried to. It came as far as the constitutional court in Germany, and failed miserably. The law now returns, slightly changed.
You have to know that in Germany, each "Land" (~County) has its own law. If there's a matter on which both a county's law and federal law exist, the federal law supercedes county law. The federal law on computer trojans failed before the constitutional court. It's been slightly changed and they're going to give it another try on the federal level the next few weeks. Meanwhile, Bavaria layed out its own law regarding trojan infection of suspects' computers. It will probably also fail before court as soon as somebody bothers to sue (and a lot will, believe me), but until that happens, it's there and it's valid.
I suspect it's all some show-off attempt for big guys in politics, along the lines of "look, we were the first to arm our police with the necessary tools against terrorism", paired with a boxcar load of right-wing attitude...
Although this law will get smashed soon, it pretty much shows there the wind blows from in Germany. Or Europe, for that matter. Or the world...
Barbarian Police Can Legally Place Trojans On PCs
Symantec and Grisoft most likely are doing the spineless thing in regards to such tools already. I have a suspicion the ClamAV guys wouldn't have a problem with the signatures and even if they do third parties have ClamAV sigs now.
Sorry, most of what you said or suspected is wrong. The system is actually a very clever design which prevents interruption of data/fax calls by the phone and in fact also eavesdropping from another phone inside the house.
The "multi-way phone sockets" are usually of the NFN-Type. Here F means "Fernsprecher" (Phone) while N means "Nicht-Fernsprecher" (Non-Phone). The socket is designed so that the line goes first to the left N socket , then to the right N socket and finally to the F socket. The phone will always be the last in chain. A non-phone device (fax, modem) plugged into one of the N sockets is supposed to have two electronic switches inside which will chain-through the line to the next socket when the device does not use the line. So if you are not sending a fax or surfing the net, you will be able to use the phone normally. However when the fax/modem takes over, the phone will be cut off. This clever trick prevents you from interfering with the transmission by picking up the phone.
As you are not supposed to plug two phones into one box, this also prevents eavesdropping. Overload prevention is not the reason. There were and are devices available which either are put before the NFN-box and allow to wire another NFN-box or contain a F or NFN socket themselves. Both will allow to wire a second phone and of course you could use more than one of these devices. These device however contain a automatic switch will will cut-off the other phone when one is in use. But they will all ring.
RFSs may be used in cases of an "urgent threat to the existence or the security of the Federation or a country or physical, life or liberty of a person...
Apparently, they are drawing on a century of experience that Germany has with intrusion into people's private lives, both under right wing and left wing extremist states. Even the language of the law itself is... classic.
But watch: there will be abuses immediately (cops cannot help themselves, they have a compulsion to "fight crime") and in about 3 years one will be egregious and funded enough to make it to seriously senior courts. Then one of these (especially the EU) will seek to exert its' jurisdiction with a ruling like the US "fruit of the poisoned vine" doctrine.
Odd thing is, the bayricherbeamter are anything but stupid and may even see and desire this.
Run Linux
Encrypt Boot and home disks.
Encrypt everything.
md5sum *everything*
Boot off a knoppix or install CD periodically.
Keep a spare motherboard around and/or change motherboards frequently.
Always buy a name brand ethernet card that is a different chipset than your motherboard.
Run wireshark on your laptop which you *NEVER* let out of your sight.
Remember, thieves will only steal your stuff. The government will steal your life and liberty if it is politically possible.
The RFS may be used to read, delete, and alter data.
So, getting this straight... They have the right to modify data in ways that can't be [reasonably] detected... and then they can use this data to press charges?
"Of course not your honor! It was different data we changed. The incredibly convenient file that says, 'I am guilty, it's a fair cop, guv! Oh yeah, it was me!' was there all along."
You're on incredibly shaky ground when you allow the police to manufacture information where they may subsequently use information to support charges. As soon as one dirty cop gets caught manufacturing evidence, you've devalued the entire method for gaining it. How long before the standard defense becomes, "My client has never seen that file before. Given the police routinely add and modify files on people's computers, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they didn't put it there themselves and then change the logs to simply make it look like my client did it."