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Why Do We Have To Restart Routers?
jaypaulw writes "I've owned a WRT54G, some cheap D-Link home Wi-Fi/firewall/routers, and now an Apple Airport Extreme (100/10 ethernet ports). In the context of the discussion about the worst uses of Windows — installation in places where an embedded device is superior — I've gotten to wondering why it's necessary to reboot these devices so frequently, like every few days. It seems like routers, purpose-built with an embedded OS, should be the most stable devices on my network."
It shouldn't be necessary to do that.
Usually, though, it would be either a problem in the firmware leading to instability or a change in routing, DNS, or DHCP assignments that the router can't handle live for some reason. It could also be possible that the firmware allows no changes at all to the running configuration, forcing a restart for any change made in an attempt at making it less hackable.
-1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
I'm guessing what you actually need to do is reset the connection to your modem or release and renew DHCP, Every router I've used allows you to login to a web based configuration and do these things.
If your having to restart yours every couple of days...something is wrong. The one here at the house has been up for last 173 days. I checked the main router at work and its been up almost 300 days.
I have a pair of Apple Airport routers, and the only time they get rebooted is when I change settings and restart them. That happens whenever I want to let another computer use my network, about every couple of months.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Bought a Buffalo router and flashed it with DD-WRT. The only time the thing reset was when the power went out. If you're restarting your router every few days, I'd suggest looking into your config for the problem.
P.P.S. I'm doing Science and I'm still alive.
TCP connection timeouts on some routers default to 3600 seconds or one hour. So, when you use some Bittorrent or such, opening lots of connections, your router keeps these connections (even after disconnection) in its memory for up to an hour. It fills up and your router grinds to a halt, opening connections very slowly.
There's other timeouts too, but I'm not sure exactly what they do. Firmware like HyperWRT lets you change these timeouts to something much shorter, like 90 seconds, which typically prevents lock-ups like that.
(I'm actually not 100% sure that this is the sole cause for router lock-ups)
Not to be a dick, but I use a wrt54g with tomato firmware and it's about the most stable and powerful (QOS is great on it) router anywhere close to the consumer price range.
I never have to restart my DSL router or Vonage router either, and I've kept all this stuff up 24/7 often with heavy use for years at a time.
If you're restarting networking stuff all the time, perhaps you've misconfigured it...
The hardware on your router might be failing, power supply or whatever. I had the same problem with a DSL modem once, it eventually just outright died. The new one I bought (netgear DG834G) hasn't had to be reset once.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
I'm running DD-WRT 23v2 on two Buffalo WHR-HP-54G routers, and I never have to reset them. However, I did have to update their configuration from the default settings in order to make them reliably stable. With the default settings, I would have to reset them occasionally. I changed the "maximum ports" from the default of 512 to 4096, and changed TCP and UDP timeouts from the default of 3600 seconds to 120 seconds. The reason for this (as stated in the DD-WRT help documentation) is that P2P apps often open many ports without closing them properly. These settings allow the router to handle that kind of usage much better.
I had several "consumer" grade routers before finally finding the Dlink gamer lounge.
I've never been happier. I've had it for almost 2 years and I never have to reset it. The wireless always works, the gigabit is nice and the "Gamefuel" QOS is fairly effective.
The $100+ linksys routers aren't much improved over their $50 brethren, but the $100+ Dlink most certainly is.
I'm a network admin for an ISP, and we've been recommending UPSs for the frequent-reboot routers that our customers have. We've found that routers (especially Linksys) have a real problem with power fluctuations that most other systems and devices don't notice. A decent line-conditioning UPS might solve your problems, but a cheap one will suffice.
Also, could be the device is running out of memory, if your ISP is changing the properties of your connection a lot, or you might have a duplex issue causing a lot of retransmissions. . .
Just a couple of thoughts :)
"He may be mad, but there's method in his madness. [...] It's what drives men mad, being methodical." G.K.Chesterton
I have a similar setup on my Linksys WRT54GS. With the factory software it would lock up every other week -- wouldn't pass traffic and I couldn't log into it. Had to pull power to reset it. I loaded DD-WRT (23v2) and set it as you described and it has never failed to pass traffic, although every 3-4 months I can't access it from the Web GUI for some reason. I can still telnet into it though, so I just login from there and reset it.
I have a second WRT54GS (on it's own subnet providing open access to anyone in the area) and it's never locked me out of the GUI, although it doesn't pass nearly the traffic mine does.
I used to have a Blitzz router/AP that required rebooting every 3.5 days, regular as clockwork, regardless of traffic or number of connections. Pitched it in the dumpster when I got the second WRT54GS.
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I think you're right. This seems to be especially common on D-Link routers. I used to run a DI-624 which was stable for years, until one day it just started rebooting itself. Did it infrequently at first, but progressed to the point where it rebooted continuously and was unuseable. Poking around, I discovered that the AC adapter (power brick) was not only VERY warm, the plastic shell was actually deformed a little on one side. I replaced the AC adapter, and the router worked good as new... until a few years later, when AGAIN it started rebooting, then stopped working entirely. And AGAIN, the AC adapter was at fault (totally dead this time). And again, replacing the AC adapter resurrected the DI-624.
It seems to me that the manufacturers of residential-class routers really skimp on the power supply, or at least D-Link does. The AC adapters they've bundled in recent years are smaller than a deck of cards, yet I'm supposed to believe that they can put out 3 amps of current at 5VDC indefinitely?
Cisco's 800, 1800, and 2800 line are certainly affordable (where "affordable" is closer to the $1000 mark than some free-after-rebate special).
I go this route these days instead of flashing el-cleapos because I don't have the time I did when I was young and single. Sure, the 2801 with a DSL WIC is way more expensive, but I never have to touch the damn thing.
I run OpenWRT on a Linksys WRT54GS. Up 403 days right now.
Here's two: Soekris, Mikrotik/Routerboard.
I've found that to be true. Where I live, the summer months bring terrible thunderstorms. If there's ever that lightning strike that causes the lights to flicker, the internet always "goes down". Every time, it's always been fixed by unplugging and re-plugging the power to the router.
I just want to second the UPS suggestion. For a few months, my apartment complex had brief power fluctuations at least once a week. My cable modem would mysteriously stop passing packets after each of these power blips until a full reset was performed. Sticking a small, cheap UPS on the modem solved the problem.
Agreed on the power problems. I'm the engineer for an ISP here too and we also run into problems with our residential FWs. We were reselling D-Link but have switched to LinkSys. Both of them exhibit problems with power fluctuations. My parent's live in our service area, far from the paved roads. They are literally the last meter on the line. They get browns often. The usual outcome is that the router freezes hard. Rebooting does not fix it. The only fix appears to be a week or so with no power. The device eventually starts working again. We resell 350w UPSs to our users but our CSRs don't push them hard enough IMHO. Since most of our service area is rural we should really push them a lot harder. Personally I recommend Panamax surge strips. They actually open the circuit on undervoltage. Unlike most surge strips they actually cut off on overvoltage as well. They don't require the massive surges to set them off like most of the rest. Good stuff. I wish we sold them.
My off hand guess, Bittorrents. I've noticed with the WRT54G that I had for a while would have problems if you're running multiple torrents, and don't have any cap on how many inbound and outbound connections there can be (IE, overnight runs where you don't need to use any of your bandwidth :-) A reboot always fixed the problem - I assume it's either running out of memory, or running out of ports to work with (since each connection has a timeout of an hour, IIRC)
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it's simple, most router keep tcpip connections alive for 3600 sec or more (especially d-link one), so each time you establish a connection on a bittorrent client your router open a new one. After a few hours, sometimes a day or a few ones, it can become a problem very quickly as you might imagine. Just install dd-wrt or tomato and drop the timeout to 360sec, it'll do the job.
Now I have a Buffalo G125 with dd-wrt and is AMAZING (good luck finding one of them these days in the states after their legal troubles though). The last time I had a necessary reboot was when I upgraded the firmware (to enable cool things like bandwidth graphs). Sometimes I will reboot it when it is not necessary--such as when comcast has some sort of unknown network issue so my first thought is to start powercycling things until I remember the cable modem's IP and see that there are connection errors in the log. Other than that, rock solid stable with 5 active users and a good deal of game/torrent traffic.
Bottles.
I think I've rebooted my WRT54G router like twice since December. It's quite reliable.
I have to agree on the UPS. I have owned a long list of routers as well, and often had issues requiring reboots. Eventually, I put in a UPS with power conditioning, and the problem completely went away. I was surprised, and have run all my home network/servers UPS'd since.
So pay $70 to get a WRT54GL, then use some different firmware like DD-WRT or tomato on it. Cheap, and they even make installing it and all easy, as easy as the "normal" routers are to configure, and it'll get you those long uptimes.
If you don't like your crappy router, fix it. It's not that hard.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I used to think D-Link routers were crap. Then I got a Linksys WRT54G, and my life went to hell. Constant lockups, power cycles, and constantly losing DNS service... It was batshit insane.
And then my folks got a D-Link 605 (the draft-N one) from a copy of Vista, and I inherited it. My connection has been ROCK SOLID ever since, NEVER have to reboot that thing. Their firmware also does more than the WRT54G.
In short, Linksys sucks, go D-Link.
My experience was nearly exact oppostie of yours, just chiming to say that anecdotal evidence is rarely accurate in practice. As others here have suggested, you might be more happy running the Linksys hardware with some 3rd part software; then again you seem happy with you d-link so maybe it isn't worth the effort for you.
-*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
A correction to the above, replace openwrt with "dd-wrt", I realized I mistyped immediately after hitting submit.
-*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
I would appreciate even a link on how to underclock a CPU on OpenBSD.
OS is irrelevant. When the machine starts, you need to go into the BIOS. That probably means pressing F1 or Del. Somewhere in there will be speed settings (maybe "clock" and "multiplier" with that age of machine). Write down the original settings. Then, start dropping the speed. If you have "clock" and "multiplier", drop multiplier first. Drop a little bit, save, reboot. Make sure the OS still works. If it does, drop another notch. Repeat until you run out of settings, it's too slow for its intended purpose, or it starts to feel like Windows Vista.
If you go too far, either try rebooting (some machines will always boot into the BIOS at a safe speed), or open up the case and take out the little battery overnight. When you put it back, the BIOS should reset to something useable.
--
Yes, the WRT54GL is a very good deal! I've had one for about 8 months or so, and though I haven't bothered to update the firmware yet, it is still very reliable. I've never needed to reboot it. Before that, I had a $40 Belkin router that had to be restarted at least once a week and often once a day.
Constant lockups, power cycles, and constantly losing DNS service... It was batshit insane.
Sometimes a firmware update can help. Not always but I do find it worthwhile updating the firmware and it has fixed problems for me in the past.. Having it on a UPS helps too; make sure you shield the data cables as well as the power cables. There are a few linksys units however that simply never seem to work reliably. My father has one. Just can't seem to hold a reliable connection for some reason. Mine on the other hand works damn near flawlessly.
Any equipment worth running well, is worth putting on a decent UPS with AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulation). A good UPS isn't expensive, but it will turn the seriously ugly power in many homes (like drops below 100v when the A/C or the fridge kicks on) into a perfectly nice 120v at a smooth 60hz and keep it pegged there.
Personally, I find less reboots required for devices and appliances, much longer life of server components, and overall increased stability.
Sorry to reply to my own post. The previous version (v2.3) of DD-WRT gave uptimes of nearly two months. But the current version (v2.4) isn't as stable.
Agreed. The WRT54G was a good piece of equipment. Unfortunately, I have a version 6. It needed to be rebooted every few days, with only 1/2 dozen machines connected... at the most. When I upgraded my Macbook Pro to Leopard, the reboots were more frequent. I installed the DD-WRT micro, and it has been solid ever since. It has not needed a single reboot... I guess I can skip Plan B, which was to run the router over with a large truck.
In theory, none of those routers should need a UPS, just a better AC-DC converter perhaps with a bigger capacitor across the DC lines. I've never investigated the quality of the wall warts they supply with routers, but my guess is they are very cheap and simply don't handle voltage fluctuations as well as they should.
The problem I've had with dd-wrt and torrents is the max tcp connections is by default very low. Not something you would notice under normal traffic, but during swarms it can fill up fairly quickly.
It give the appearance the unit has locked up since it is difficult to establish a tcp connection. These will bleed away eventually and allow a connection to be established.
I just set the max number of tcp ports and it fairs fairly well using bit torrent now.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
Linksys is the one manufacturer that's on my "never" list. My previous employer used to use their hubs and cascaded them into a network switch. The darn things kept losing track of what MAC addresses were hanging off them and refusing to route traffic. You only have to have one complete and utter failure like that to be written off in my book.
That said, I've recently also written off Netgear. After about my fourth or fifth Netgear card went dead (I think I have one left that is still functioning after three or four years), I started avoiding their cards like the plague. Then, I bought one of their consumer hubs a couple of months ago and it was dropping something like 80% of the packets that went through it (between any two devices including upstream). I took it back to Fry's and replaced it with a D-Link and it worked flawlessly. (And no, I didn't have something hooked up to the uplink and the non-uplink port beside it. Been there, done that.)
Bottom line is that after three hard drive failures in the course of a little over a month (yes, I have a third Seagate drive misbehaving massively, randomly corrupting data), I've pretty much come to the conclusion that nearly all electronics built today are mass-Chinese-manufactured crap that barely works and doesn't even do that for very long. Very sad, really.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Also, jam the TCP timeout way down low. That will do wonders.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
I've had a WRT54G for almost two years. I've never had to reboot it, not even once. The trick was installing OpenWRT firmware.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
Mine is sitting on my server...
Have not rebooted it since I moved (~1 year)
really, I think it's power issues. This same router gave me tons of greif at my previous place, but when I moved I put it on the UPS and no issues since...
-nB
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
While this is somewhat true, some Linksys routers have a 4 day cache on these connections.... As a result, the memory gets hosed pretty quickly... Switching to DD-WRT, and lowering the connection cache to around 4 hours tends to make things run a lot longer.....
Most often, actually, I've found that the cause is, gasp, Bittorrent. Fills up the NAT tables and they're not purged fast enough, unable to open / map more ports, effectively, no more connectivity.
That was rated funny, but truth be told I have seen Vista Laptops screw up networks often.
Especially with out Linux Fileservers, XP computers and Laptops can access them fine, but while the Vista machines sees the Fileserver in the "Network and Sharing Centre" as soon as you try to access the server Vista claims that the server "Does not exist or may be switched off"
Apparently there is a registry hack for this...
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
I like the way you think. alix2c3 uses 6 Watts - a little more with a VPN card installed. I agree on keeping the wireless devices separate, they're just not gonna be rock solid.
This MS KB may help.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932134
There is also an MS KB related to the broadcast flag which may be what is being referred to.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928233
Some folks prefer a little more control. Personally, I run my own caching DNS on my laptop, as well as on my main server at home.
These stanzas in my /etc/named.conf are the only thing that make web browsing bearable for me:
zone "intellitxt.com" in {
type master;
file "junk.zone";
};
zone "doubleclick.net" in { ...
type master;
file "junk.zone";
};
viola:/var/lib/named> cat junk.zone
$TTL 1W
@ IN SOA @ root (
42 ; serial (d. adams)
2D ; refresh
4H ; retry
6W ; expiry
1W ) ; minimum
IN NS @
IN A 0.0.0.0
-- *My* journal is more interesting than *yours*...
Same here. The condition that tripped the problem went as follows:
My laptop = Ubuntu (latest)
Wife's laptop = Vista Home Premium.
Both wireless.
We're surfing, everything is running great. I'd hit a site that had lots of images all on one page (think Fark's 'Photoshop this pic' page')
Bang, network goes dead.
I'd restart the router and my box would come back online no problem. Vista would not re-establish a connection. Repair (or whatever it's called in Vista) failed. We'd need to reboot her computer.
Searched the web and found that this same problem happens and seems to be related to the router.
Switched to a Netgear VPN824V3 and the problem has pretty much disappeared.
My wrt54g V4 may be a 12w device, but the power brick it came with is less than 50% efficient.
I went ahead and went with the VxWorks one for my mom. It comes with a much better switching supply. Hopefully it will work well for her.
Mine is, I have a Soekris net4501 running OpenBSD 4.2. Nice and quiet, low power, high reliability. And the smallest CF I could find was a 1gig, so I have the entire installation, sans X on that puppy. Full support for VLANS, OSPF, Pf, the works. All in a small, quiet, low power, albeit ugly green case.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
For me, it seems to depend on many factors. I have two WRT54G routers (pre vxworks switch) and I had the same rebooting problem. I switched to DD-WRT which helped for a while, then I began using BitTorrent frequently. This caused my router to get "bogged-down" and I had to start rebooting it again. A few months ago, I switched to the Tomato firmware and everything has been running perfectly. This firmware is much lighter and cleaner and over-all is just better than DD-WRT (which I used to swear by). Perhaps you should give it a try.