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Foreign-owned Hotels To Install Firewall In China
Frosty Piss writes "Foreign-owned hotels in China face the prospect of 'severe retaliation' if they refuse to install government software that can spy on Internet use by hotel guests coming to watch the summer Olympic games. Republican Senator Sam Brownback produced a translated version of a document from China's Public Security Bureau that requires hotels to use the monitoring equipment. The Public Security Bureau order threatens that failure to comply could result in financial penalties, suspending access to the Internet or the loss of a license to operate a hotel in China. The policy was designed to 'ensure the smooth opening' of the Olympics, as well as 'promote the healthy and orderly development of the Internet, safeguard state security, maintain social order and protect public interests,' the translation of the one of the documents read."
I really don't understand China. They lock down the flow of information in their country so that they don't look bad, but in doing so generate a ton of negative media saying how they lock down their information. Could someone please explain what benefit this gives them?
Trautman: What do you say John?
Rambo: Fuck 'em.
Of course, the them==Russians but I am getting a bit tired of the BS regarding the Chinese government. Everyone knows money vs ethics = money wins. Of course it is not in the hotel's interests to get fined or have no internet. Bah I hate cliches.
So Brownback is upset that the Chinese government is forcing companies to spy on innocent citizens? Hypocrite much?
casualsax3 wins the thread.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
James Fallows already did in The Great Firewall. The short version: China is worried chiefly about controlling its own people and setting bad internal precedents. It's not as worried about the rest of the world. In addition, the Chinese authorities are somewhat inept, as he explains here. Because neither can be excerpted effectively, you'll just have to follow the links.
Someone needs to slip a satellite based internet uplink in with their media gear. Even an old school MoDem hooked to a sat-phone would be sufficient if enough are used in parallel, then share the internet connection through a distributed wireless network to anyone nearby. Let the Chinese people get a taste of the other 98% of the internet they are missing out on.
Ignorance is Bliss -- And the Opposite is True -- Genius is Madness
Incompatible with liberalism
If by "liberalism" you mean the philosophy of letting people do their own thing (i.e., what libertarianism used to be called), you couldn't be more wrong. Capitalism is the ideal economic system for such a political philosophy.
Incompatible with conservatism
I guess that depends on how you define "conservatism". You may have a point, but don't be so vague.
Incompatible with human rights
The fact that the US has always been capitalistic, and done ok on human rights (not great, but not terrible either), contradicts this.
Incompatible with human nature.
Absolute horseshit. Capitalism aligns PERFECTLY with human nature. Human nature is to improve one's own lot in life as much as possible. Capitalism is to make as much profit for oneself as possible.
Somebody please tell me why we're still fisting Adam Smith's very dry corpse?
Maybe because it's worked out pretty damned well? It's not perfect, but nothing is. Maybe you live in a world where everything goes right all the time, but most of us sure don't.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
The other option is not get a cut of the market at all. Everyone wants in to China's market- if a company isn't willing to compromise and accept breaching the rights of Chinese citizens, another Western company (and more frequently, Chinese companies) will step up and happily take their place. And as long as the Chinese government keeps delivering economic growth like this, we'll keep scrambling to get a piece of the pie, and the Chinese citizenry will happily give up their civil liberties in return for stability and nice hotels to stay in. After all, compared with pre-reform China, hotels with any internet are a dream come true. With China, and its government, growth and stability go hand-in-hand. Both government and citizens are willing to sacrifice civil rights for it. Not the ideal bargain, but better than some countries ;) We're giving up our civil liberties in America, and not getting much in return.
Perhaps these foreign owned companies could install the Chinese firewall, then inside that install a dedicated VPN back to their HQ for their guests.
China doesnt block VPNs. Game over.
YHL. HAND.
.. a hell of a lot of Chinese people seem to have no idea about the crap their government pulls. You can gripe all you want about the US government, but at least the country has some semblance of free speech.
Well said, sir. Well said.
It's ironic to see our own government railing against it after they rubber-stamped Bush's warrantless spy program that spies on ALL of us (without bothering to hold hearings about what all Bush was up to).
But when the Chinese do it, they finally realize it's a bad thing.
Mind you, it *IS* a bad thing. A terrible thing! I just wish they'd realize that they're being hypocritical here and fight against BOTH spy programs instead of only the Chinese programs. Because, otherwise, if you discuss it with anyone Chinese, they'll just tell you that the US government does it too, so it must be okay!
Which is both ridiculous and sad, because there are MANY things the US government is doing (i.e. torture) which are definitely NOT okay in any way, shape or form.
I think it is a scandal that China ever came to host the Olympics. From extreme censorship to massive doping and outright cheating; the Chinese proudly admitted how they told certain Chinese players to loose games so a more "correct" player could be chosen. Chinese doping is as organized as in the former East Germany and there is absolutely zero interest in combatting doping in China since the Olympic games are being used politically to show how superior the Chinese dictatorship is; doping means medals and medals means political strength.
If this is the norm for what IOC finds acceptable then IOC better change or face sanctions themselves. Democratic countries should seriously reconsider if they should continue to support sporting events that glorify dictatorships.
--
Regards
China has Ministry of Truth in place. I think that is pretty obvious by now. Giving the media spotlight this is going to give China I can't say that they are playing there cards well. China, as a country might fall apart in the next 20 years because of how they handle the media today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth
Yeah China is worse. But it's FUCKING CHINA. Like they have a wonderful track record. On top of it all, FOREIGNERS in another country are subject to local laws/customs. What did they think because they're hosting the Olympics all the sudden China isn't run by a bunch of shit heads?
Also, what are you saying? That thanks to Tor, you're OK with warrantless wiretaps now? Because you have the knowledge to cover your tracks, it's OK! I remember reading on /. that Tor is not exactly fool proof, maybe things are better now, I don't use it.
My comment was meant as a sarcastic swipe at hypocritical politicians decrying the snooping on FOREIGNERS in a host country (especially when that host country is China, WTF did they expect??). Meanwhile in the U.S. they're snooping on their own fucking citizens without so much as having to show any proof of wrong doing or letting you know about it. But apparently it's not such a big deal because you know you can rent your own fucking server and use Tor.
In this context this is utterly hypocritical for Sen. Brownback to be taking a swipe at a country with China's record (I continue to be in shock and awe that anyone expected different in the first place) when things have been moving down a parallel (perhaps not IDENTICAL) path.
No sig for you!!
Good. If you have laws in place they should be applied to everyone.
I don't like the chinese firewall laws, but I dislike laws that aren't applied fairly to everyone even more.
Somebody please tell me why we're still fisting Adam Smith's very dry corpse?
-----
I think your familiarity with Adam Smith is limited.
To found a great empire for the sole purpose of raising up a people of customers may at first sight appear a project fit only for a nation of shopkeepers. It is, however, a project altogether unfit for a nation of shopkeepers; but extremely fit for a nation whose government is influenced by shopkeepers.
....Snip... . As sovereigns, their interest is exactly the same with that of the country which they govern. As merchants their interest is directly opposite to that interest.
But a company of merchants are, it seems, incapable of considering themselves as sovereigns . . . Their mercantile habits draw them in this manner, almost necessarily, though perhaps insensibly, to prefer upon all ordinary occasions the little and transitory profit of the monopolist to the great and permanent revenue of the sovereign . .
(Book_Four*Chapt_VII*Of_Colonies)
I_Voter
Political Power in the U.S.- an under construction web site.
http://web.newsguy.com/politicaleconomy/
>> Incompatible with liberalism
> If by "liberalism" you mean the philosophy of letting people do their own thing (i.e., what libertarianism used to be called), you couldn't be more wrong. Capitalism is the ideal economic system for such a political philosophy.
I'm not the AC who posted that, but that's NOT what liberalism means. It comes from liberal (not liberty). It has more to do with a generous and caring society, NOT one where you can do whatever the hell you want.
But I don't blame you for not knowing it. Chinese speakers of English use the word far more often than we do. But it is a real word.
For a VPN to be useful you need somewhere to terminate it. Public free or subscription VPN termination endpoints don't seem to be too common (unsurprisingly, given the potential for abuse and relatively limited utility).
There are places that offer virtual servers or simple shell accounts where you can set up your own VPN termination, though. Even an SSH tunnel is quite sufficient, really.
However, you also need to be sure that your termination point doesn't have a deal with the Chinese gov't to permit monitoring of traffic of Chinese origin. I would want to be pretty careful about this myself after Yahoo, Google, etc's recent dealings. I wouldn't be too worried about virtual server providers or shell services, but a dedicated VPN termination service might need to be checked out carefully.
Finally, blocking and content filtering are only half the problem. It's still easy to tell that you are using a VPN. This might not be a very good thing, especially if you somehow otherwise draw official attention.
seriously. "foreign-owned hotels IN CHINA to install firewall" would have been better. actually, let's keep it simple: "hotels in china to install firewall." I'm sorry. Normally I wouldn't give a frack, but I keep seeing more and more people butcher english when writing for a public audience. considering this is a news site, home to budding journalists, this is really starting to become my pet peeve. I took a couple of english classes, and I found them highly enjoyable (more so than my CS classes). However, I'm not the one in journalism. ...but some1 kneeds 2 retake english class lolololollolol hahahayhah
The Internet should be a medium for the freedom of expression, not repression. Censorship helps Chinese authorities hide the true extent of human rights abuses - their use of the death penalty, torture and detention without trial and the persecution of human rights defenders. http://uncensor.com.au/uncensor/
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The action is just for money (sell equipments),not for control. Because they already have the Golden Shield Firewall.
Oh noes! :( Politicized hiring at the justice department and weakened federal regulatory agencies! And the NSA listened in on some people calling abroad! The US is just like China!
And considering Bush is getting kicked out of office real soon, the US will have to become just like China any day now, or it will be too late! US am doomed! :( :( :(
---This message brought to you by HERPES - the Hyperbole Emergency Response Program Eastern Sweden.----
Just for a new perspective. Replace in "China/Chinese" with "USA/American" and "Nationalistic" with "patriotic" and read this again. It sounds eerily like the US public debate.
As a foreigner living in the US, it amazes me how much the government officials and the press need to tout the virtues of America being the grates and the best in everything. Even if they are not.
If it is healthcare, education, banking, recycling, solar energy, hydrogen technology, cell phone technology, Internet access and technology, or infrastructure from bridges to roads to trains to airports, the US is far behind the leading nations in this world. And the vast majority of Americans have no idea that they are not leading, and that they are not even in second or third place.
Only a patriotic/nationalistic drumbeat prevents the democratic America from taking on their pressing issues and fire their leaders that have long failed to work in the interest of the American people. Don't get me wrong, most US politicians don't have the power to imprison citizens for opposing or simply provocative views. But they still try to sell the Americans a happy story that they know is not right. And the mass media in this country does the very same. I guess they don't care enough about the truth, but rather about keeping the audience entertained and paying.
The fact that the US has always been capitalistic, and done ok on human rights (not great, but not terrible either), contradicts this.
Do you mean a hundred of years of slavery is "O.K.?"
Then I want to know what country does not o.k. in your book?
Incompatible with human nature.
Capitalism aligns PERFECTLY with human nature. Human nature is to improve one's own lot in life as much as possible. Capitalism is to make as much profit for oneself as possible.
This kind of egoism does only align with the worst in human nature. I question the humanity of a being that is only after his/her own interest. Not to say that self interest has its place. But without considering what it does to others or what would happen if everybody would act the same way is simply inhumane.
Because with this kind of limitless self interest I can justify slavery, destruction of the environment, sub prime mortgage debacles (it was certainly in the self interest of some people), even aggressive wars.
Do you mean a hundred of years of slavery is "O.K.?" Then I want to know what country does not o.k. in your book?
a) Of couse not. But the US also worked to advance freedom by the formation of our system of government, for example. We have always done both good and bad... the good usually outweighing the bad.
b) Several countries don't do OK. Soviet Russia didn't, Nazi Germany didn't, China still doesn't, etc... it's not hard to pick out some examples if you look.
This kind of egoism does only align with the worst in human nature. I question the humanity of a being that is only after his/her own interest. Not to say that self interest has its place. But without considering what it does to others or what would happen if everybody would act the same way is simply inhumane. Because with this kind of limitless self interest I can justify slavery, destruction of the environment, sub prime mortgage debacles (it was certainly in the self interest of some people), even aggressive wars.
I didn't say it was good or bad, just in line with human nature. That's not a debateable point, imnsho. It's just plain fact.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
If you won't use a chinese laptop because it might be compromised, may I please ask who made your current laptop? Because if you look in there you're going to see a lot of "Made in China" stickers.
Incompatible with human nature.
Absolute horseshit. Capitalism aligns PERFECTLY with human nature. Human nature is to improve one's own lot in life as much as possible. Capitalism is to make as much profit for oneself as possible.
Most of the points you raise are fair and while I do not agree with them all they are well made and relevent to the discussion. Your view of human nature frightens me. Self interest may well be the default nature of the human animal, but not of the human being. A world in which everyone is interested only in persuing his or her own desires would be hell on earth, although admittedly it is encouraged by the dominant western religion (consumerism).
As for Adam Smith, he was a Christian. He lived in a world in which the Christian ethos was still pretty much universal and probably assumed his ideas would exist within that moral framework. I suspect he would be appalled that his work has been used to justify some very unchristian ideas.
I didn't say it was good or bad, just in line with human nature. That's not a debateable point, imnsho. It's just plain fact.
It is very much a debatable point. Are you arguing that Jesus, Buddah, Mandela, Ghandi and countless others are not human? It is my belief that it is you that subscribes to an inhumane philosophy.
Inhumane? Not at all. I do, however, take a very, very dim view of human nature, and I dare anyone to provide enough evidence to show that people are generally good-natured. My experience is that human nature is very self-centered, and those who are not self-centered are a) the exception, not the rule, and b) overcoming their natural desires, not in line with them.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Do you mean a hundred of years of slavery is "O.K.?"
Then I want to know what country does not o.k. in your book?
Capitalism did not create slavery. It existed before it developed. But England - a very much pioneering capitalist nation - DID outlaw slavery and slave trade overseas much earlier than many countries dreamed to emancipate slaves.
This kind of egoism does only align with the worst in human nature. I question the humanity of a being that is only after his/her own interest. Not to say that self interest has its place. But without considering what it does to others or what would happen if everybody would act the same way is simply inhumane.
You say that the human desire of improving his condition aligns with the worst in human nature? How do you expect poor people to free themselves from poverty other than trying to make a better life for themselves? With welfare checks?
Because with this kind of limitless self interest I can justify slavery, destruction of the environment, sub prime mortgage debacles (it was certainly in the self interest of some people), even aggressive wars.
Oh could you? Interesting insight into your person.
Send your spendthrift head of state this