IBM Granted "Paper-or-Plastic?" Patent

theodp writes "On Tuesday, IBM was granted US Patent No. 7,407,089 for storing a preference for paper or plastic grocery bags on customer cards and displaying a picture of said preference after a card is scanned. The invention, Big Blue explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked. The patent claims also cover affixing a cute sticker of a paper or plastic bag to a customer card to indicate packaging preferences. So does this pass the 'significant technical content' test, IBM'ers?"

Comments

This won't have an effect in Belgium

[houghi]

We have no bags at the supermarkets anymore, unless you buy them. So almost everybody has bags or boxes that will last much longer.

Environment and such, ya know. Other countries do the same, I believe.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[QuantumG]

Would you like to kill a tree or a turtle?

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[Chrisq]

Would you like to kill a tree or a turtle?

If I can chop down a tree so it lands on a turtle can I have both?

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[Frosty Piss]

We have no bags at the supermarkets anymore, unless you buy them.

In Seattle Washington, our City Counsel just voted a 20 cent per bag (paper or plastic) tax. Indeed, the city also outlawed the sale of water in plastic single-use bottles in or on all city owned property. I believe that more and more municipalities are headed this direction.

But it's still an asinine patent that is a perfect example of one of the many problems with our patent system.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[QuantumG]

I'd rather just have turtle soup in a paper cup.

With chives.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[aussie_a]

In Australia we have bags that are bought in stores as well as plastic bags, giving people the choice on whether or not they're environmentally conscious.

However I saw a news report about research (the research's validity I know nothing about, so it could be complete hogwash) showing that the bags that are sold and used in preference to the plastic bags aren't biodegradable or recyclable (although they are reusable of course). In comparison there are biodegradable plastic bags which will degrade within 6 months of being buried in a dump.

I think the biodegradable plastic bags sound like the better choice and much more preferable then a 20 cent tax per bag (although it might end up costing more then 20 cents per bag, at least its actually doing something rather then just punishing people). Although I don't know if supermarkets (in either Australia or America) use the bio-degradable ones, or if they use the traditional plastic bags.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[mrboyd]

I used to reuse the plastic bag as trash bag like everyone else. Now I have to buy my grocery bag almost everytime I go shopping and buy additional trash bags which seems to be made of thicker plastic than the shopping bags I had before.

Carbon neutrality or disguised corporate greed? You choose.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[jacquesm]

the really amazing thing here is that those bags seem to know where they are, so they don't decompose when they're not buried in a dump!

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[2Bits]

China has just implemented this policy as well, you must pay 0.2 RMB if you want a plastic bag. Stores which still give plastic bags for free will be fined, or worse, shut down.

All in the name of environment.

The cost saved has never been passed to customers. Worse yet, stores have been taking in even more profits, selling at amazing high price all kinds of shopping bags.

The cost is totally transfered to customers. There are other side affects too, as a result. People used to put their garbage in those plastic bags, tied them up before throwing them in the common garbage bin. Now, they just dump the garbage directly in, bringing flies and other insects, and having very stinky neighborhood.

We used to use those as garbage bags as well, and as we are only two, we don't have much garbage. The smallish grocery store bags are just perfect for daily garbage. Now we have to buy those larger black bags, which we can't fill in one day. Since we don't like stinky overnight garbage in house, we throw away a half empty bag, which is a waste. So, for our family of two, this policy does not seem to do any good to environment. Unless we are willing to keep garbage overnight, of course.

The so-called experts on the panel who decided this policy (in closed door, as all other policies in China) admitted they didn't consider any of the social and cost issues before they passed it. As if this is new to any one.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[value_added]

I think the biodegradable plastic bags sound like the better choice and much more preferable then a 20 cent tax per bag (although it might end up costing more then 20 cents per bag, at least its actually doing something rather then just punishing people)

Your recommendation appears based on the notion that not using plastic bags is punishing someone. I don't see how alternative approaches can ever be considered punishment, given that convenience of any type involves a trade-off, and the negative connotations of the term are more appropriate for bumperstickers and negative campaign ads than for reasoned discussion.

By offering plastic bags, the tradeoff is mostly the wasteful use of resources vs. the customer being able to carry home their purchases. With plastic rings for 6-packs of aluminum cans, the tradeoff includes an even more wasteful use of resources, threats to the marine environment, and the collective cost borne by the rest of society vs. marketing effectiveness (6-packs on sale!) on the part of the retailer, and easy-to-carry benefits on the part of the consumer.

My own opinion is that anything that encourages environmental responsibility and awareness of the true costs involved by all parties is A Good Thing. If that requires a minor incovenience or a similarly minor change of habit and routine on the part of everyone involved, so be it. If it involves a surcharge, then the surcharge will remind people that they have to take into account what the realities are when they make their purchasing decisions and force them responsible for their actions. At the moment, we don't see $20 Environmentally Destructive Surcharge sticker on computer motherboards, but if it comes to that, I'm sure we'd all benefit from it.

You can, of course, seek or encourage compromise solutions. However, the plastic bag problem is relatively simple to fix, so I don't see any need to pursue half-hearted or partially-effective schemes at the periphery when something more fundamental needs addressing. Namely, resources of all types have their limits, we're too wasteful as a society, we're only too happy to remain ignorant of the consequences, and everything has a cost that someone, somewhere pays.

The irony here is that instead of taking the opportunity to use the plastic bag issue as a symbolic Step in the Right Direction and moving on with what we've learned, we're busy arguing over whether consumers are being punished.

Won't someone please think of the consumers! ;-)

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[kklein]

As much as I hate Wal-Mart, I have to say that they have been using biodegradable bags for a very long time. Good thing, too, because those loonies will try to put every single item in its own bag if you're not careful.

Personally, I'd rather just see biodegradable "plastic" bags than anything else. My wife and I reuse all shopping bags as trash bags, and although paper is a nice idea and all, it is basically useless for that or any other bag purpose, because it's not waterproof.

Over here in Japan, they not only give you a million bags, but they are non-biodegradable. You can buy "eco-bags," but to be perfectly honest, I don't like them. They're synthetic canvas, so I imagine they're much worse for the environment, and they look like crap after about 6 months. Walking around with a filthy, scruffy canvas bag is not really... my style.

That said, it would probably be fine if everyone did it, but that's not going to happen unless they start charging for bags, and then we'd have to buy trash bags anyway.

Biodegradable shopping bags, please!

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[TheP4st]

In Belgium we have proper beer. So grocery stores try not to annoy us by selling bland liquids like Budweiser.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[Hognoxious]

Killing the turtle won't make any difference, there's another one right underneath it.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[BlackCreek]

I am sorry to go against your illusions about The Netherlands.

I don't know if that's actually illegal here or not, but after moving to Rotterdam (from Groningen btw), and being unable to find a place to dump glass, and other kinds of waste at a walking distance from my house, I tried searching on the city web pages for the closest point. Couldn't find any. They list only major locations far, far, far away.

I called them at this phone number. The lady said:

Get your car, and take them to...

Long story short: after telling them I did not have a car, and needed a place at a 15min walking distance, I was told I there was no such a place in the city center, and that I should simply dump my glass in the regular trash.

There are a lot of people living in the center of Rotterdam, but no underground trash disposing.

It may be illegal to throw these things in the trash, but even in the center of major cities in the NL, there is often no infrastructure to separate the trash, and the city gov. itself will tell you to trash everything together.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[geekoid]

Plastic bags are NOT a problem. Stop buying into it and read up.

1) The degrade a lot faster then paper bags.
2) Bags made in the US are not from oil(You didn't make this point, but it always crops up)
3) A lot of people use plastic bags as garbage bags. Getting rid of plastic grocery bags means more people are buying 'regular' trash bags; which are far worse in every respect.

Charging a fee hurts the poor. Yes, 1 dollar can mean the difference between eating and not eating.

How about we do it another way? a 20 cent discount for every reusable bag a customer uses?

A large portion of people would switch very quickly. Of course we still have the garbage bag issue.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[Teun]

One easy solution: Get twelve bags.

Re:This won't have an effect in Belgium

[zugmeister]

At the risk of killing my karma, this may help illuminate that oblique reference.

debit or credit

[laktech]

How about we also solve the "debit or credit" problem I have to deal with each time I visit the mini-mart?

Re:debit or credit

[SpeedyDX]

So you show the cashier a card to show them which card you prefer to show them?

Huh?

Re:debit or credit

[BerkeleyDude]

How about we also solve the "debit or credit" problem I have to deal with each time I visit the mini-mart?

Let me guess: I'll have to put a "credit" sticker on my credit cards, and a "debit" one on my debit cards.
If only there was a way to store this bit of data electronically, and somehow attach it to the card itself...

Re:debit or credit

[Chrisq]

And you can work around IBM's patent by tattooing your preference for paper or plastic on your forehead!

No they'll still have you "A computational device indicating preference". You'll have to pay royalties or forfeit your head.

Re:debit or credit

[jacquesm]

the reason the merchant prefers debit is because it is a fixed per payment charge for them, but credit card payments are a fraction of the amount charged.

Inconvenient Identification

[Nymz]

Answering paper or plastic isn't as inconvenient as having to carry around an identification card for every store I shop at. Why don't they just combine all the cards into a single ID. Yeah, and while they're at it, pulling that one card out of my pocket sounds inconvenient too, so why not just permanently affix it to my right hand or forehead. I'm so lucky that everyone wants to help me. /sarcasm off

The answer.

[zapatero]

Q: does this pass the 'significant technical content' test?

First the long answer: Nope.
Now the short answer: No.

meanwhile abroad...

[spectrokid]

In Denmark, where "no-nonsense" is a lifestyle, you pay +/- 1$ for each bag you want. (Makes you think twice about double-bagging!). In Belgium, you buy a reusable bag from the store. If it wears out or tears, you can trade it in for free. In the US, you guys are patenting your dependency on foreign oil.

Re:meanwhile abroad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, I'd stock up on the -$1 bags!

Re:meanwhile abroad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but we can afford it now that Obama has reduced American oil consumption by enlightening us all to the fact that we should check the air pressure in the tires of our vehicles for maximum efficiency. Screw Chavez, we don't need his oil anymore! We have Obama and his tire pressure gauges! We are saved! :)

It may sound funny but the truth is he's absolutely right. The whole point wasn't about tire pressure that's pro oil Republicans making fun of "conserving" energy like only hyppies and lefties conserve energy. The truth is you can save 3% by keeping tires properly inflated and drilling in the arctic reserve will add 1% to our oil in 20 years. The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage. Absolute fact. Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years. This is about diverting attention from the real issue and that's the oil companies are trying to gain control of all the oil rights on government land and they want to right to drill anywhere no matter how sensitive. It's manipulative and most of the US is falling for it. Might want to check your facts before you laugh. Since you're on Slashdot I'm guessing you know how to use Google. Do a search and see what the truth is not what the oil company stooges are feeding you.

So what is the invention???

[TheJasper]

Databases have been known for a few years now. Customer identification cards as well. So now you can patent specific pieces of information when tied to the identification?

Maybe I'm stupid but it seems to me that the system might be in need revision. Perhaps IBM was trying to make a point?

I never really hear what is wrong with plastic...

[arse maker]

For all the anti plastic bag talk, I've never really heard any reasons WHY they are so bad. The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.

If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?

If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue? Things barely degrade in landfills anyhow, they are anaerobic.

Maybe these days its oil based.. which maybe somehow slightly valid.. but its nothing compared to petrol. Also, anti-plastic has been around so long it cant be that. So maybe someone can inform me!

While there is probably a good answer(s) ill have shot back at me, I'm still going to be annoyed that its not well conveyed onto consumers WHY this is bad. I feel too much like I'm in 1984 if I just have to know things are bad because everyone says so. Feels like its some minor issue that gets so much press yet if everyone stopped using them it wouldn't help anything at all.. producing huge amounts of paper bags would be a nightmare and is everyone using reusable going to save us all? Most people seem to slack off once they feel they are "doing their bit" by not using plastic bags.. even if they don't know anything about the issues involved.

Re:I never really hear what is wrong with plastic.

[SilicaiMan]

The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.

correct.

If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?

if they're not biodegradable, then how do you dispose of the millions of bags that are thrown in the trash every day? where do you put them?

If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?

you under-estimate the number of plastic bags thrown away each day. They aren't only used in supermarkets for your groceries. Practically every store uses them (clothing, electronics, books, everything). There is also plastic packaging. Plastic bags ARE a HUGE problem.

Re:I never really hear what is wrong with plastic.

[Atario]

Maybe stuff like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

Re:How about - ATM language pref

[hughk]

Many ATMs do this in Europe, they take the fact that you have a non-local card and either offer you a menu in the country of origin or offer you a choice. I have taken a German ATM card to the UK and the ATM switched to German automatically.

So, let's do nothing then...

[postermmxvicom]

Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years.

So, should we not pursue alternative energy also? It takes time to bring to market also. Heck, even educating and convincing consumers to change their habits takes time. We should not pursue your plan by that logic also. Conservation is a good thing, but it won't replace long term production, unless we just stop growing. We have to get our energy from somewhere.

And 5 years is too long? Pfft! What, are you six? Is that forever to you? Who cares if it takes 50 years...think of the grandchildren! But, seriously, have you heard of the futures market, it speculatively bid on things that are, like, in the future. Part of the reason why oil is so high is because the speculation is that there won't be enough oil in the future to meet demand, thanks for that gift, pal.

The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage.

What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.