Slashdot Mirror
IBM Granted "Paper-or-Plastic?" Patent
theodp writes "On Tuesday, IBM was granted US Patent No. 7,407,089 for storing a preference for paper or plastic grocery bags on customer cards and displaying a picture of said preference after a card is scanned. The invention, Big Blue explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked. The patent claims also cover affixing a cute sticker of a paper or plastic bag to a customer card to indicate packaging preferences. So does this pass the 'significant technical content' test, IBM'ers?"
We have no bags at the supermarkets anymore, unless you buy them. So almost everybody has bags or boxes that will last much longer.
Environment and such, ya know. Other countries do the same, I believe.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
How about we also solve the "debit or credit" problem I have to deal with each time I visit the mini-mart?
Answering paper or plastic isn't as inconvenient as having to carry around an identification card for every store I shop at. Why don't they just combine all the cards into a single ID. Yeah, and while they're at it, pulling that one card out of my pocket sounds inconvenient too, so why not just permanently affix it to my right hand or forehead. I'm so lucky that everyone wants to help me. /sarcasm off
Q: does this pass the 'significant technical content' test?
First the long answer: Nope.
Now the short answer: No.
In Denmark, where "no-nonsense" is a lifestyle, you pay +/- 1$ for each bag you want. (Makes you think twice about double-bagging!). In Belgium, you buy a reusable bag from the store. If it wears out or tears, you can trade it in for free. In the US, you guys are patenting your dependency on foreign oil.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
I can't decide who I think less of, the person that thought to file this or the person that actually granted it...
Databases have been known for a few years now. Customer identification cards as well. So now you can patent specific pieces of information when tied to the identification?
Maybe I'm stupid but it seems to me that the system might be in need revision. Perhaps IBM was trying to make a point?
For all the anti plastic bag talk, I've never really heard any reasons WHY they are so bad. The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue? Things barely degrade in landfills anyhow, they are anaerobic.
Maybe these days its oil based.. which maybe somehow slightly valid.. but its nothing compared to petrol. Also, anti-plastic has been around so long it cant be that. So maybe someone can inform me!
While there is probably a good answer(s) ill have shot back at me, I'm still going to be annoyed that its not well conveyed onto consumers WHY this is bad. I feel too much like I'm in 1984 if I just have to know things are bad because everyone says so. Feels like its some minor issue that gets so much press yet if everyone stopped using them it wouldn't help anything at all.. producing huge amounts of paper bags would be a nightmare and is everyone using reusable going to save us all? Most people seem to slack off once they feel they are "doing their bit" by not using plastic bags.. even if they don't know anything about the issues involved.
I believe prior art exists for the invention of storing and retrieving user preferences.
My guess as to why somebody hasn't thought of this before? because I expect my cashier to be capable of asking a simple question and I don't see that it saves valuable time. IBM would be better off coming up with a more efficient way of reducing queues than this kind of crap.
Story after story here on /. we've discussed the US patent system, so of course I'm going to say nothing new as it's all been said before. The simple fact is that as long as any country has a system that allows this kind of rubbish through is going to suffer from a lack on innovation. How can a company get anything done when it's being sued because somebody has been granted a patent for the blindingly obvious or the completely pointless. The patent is stupid and will do nothing but waste peoples time and stifle change.
The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
correct.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
if they're not biodegradable, then how do you dispose of the millions of bags that are thrown in the trash every day? where do you put them?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
you under-estimate the number of plastic bags thrown away each day. They aren't only used in supermarkets for your groceries. Practically every store uses them (clothing, electronics, books, everything). There is also plastic packaging. Plastic bags ARE a HUGE problem.
Maybe stuff like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
IBM have been patenting really really stupidly simple and obvious inventions for quite a while now. It seems that every month /. reports on an IBMer being granted a patent on something like stickers on credit cards, or on/off switches, or a great new way of peeling an orange.
Here's what I think: you've got IBM, a very wealthy company with a very strong brand and a good reputation, and a lot of clever people. Why not solicit crazy-but-patentable ideas from IBMers, drop the small (to IBM) amount of cash on patenting it, and then have a portfolio of crazy stuff. Then when you run into problems with other patents you can pull out a patent on putting a sticker on a bank card and say "Well, you let that through..."
I reckon they're gearing up to give the US patent system an almighty rattling.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
Because of their size & weight, plastic bags escape normal disposal options easily. Look around you. Most of the trash I see on the streets is plastic bags.
You probably use thousands of plastic bags every year. Are you so confident of your disposal methods that none of them entered a waterway?
if its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
1) Paper bags recycle more readily than plastic.
2) You could just reuse a sturdy bag and that way, not contribute to landfill with the containers you use to take home your shopping at all.
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
Can the IBM system store such a complex decision process?
With our crazy patent system, if you're as big as IBM is, the smart thing to do is to patent anything and everything you do. Even if you don't intend to enforce the patent, it prevents someone else from patenting the same thing and suing you. Given court costs to defend against a patent suit and the multi-million dollar awards if you lose, $1500 for a patent application seems like really cheap insurance.
Throw-away products, plastic or paper bags, disposable cameras, packaging materials, whatever, are wasteful, in principle. It costs energy to produce them and to dispose of them. If a long lasting alternative is available, it is almost always better. Lasting products can often be fixed if they are broken, and if you don't need them anymore, you can give them away or sell them.
assignment != equality != identity
All this money that is being spent pursuing retarded patents like this is classified as R&D spending. It is seen as successful R&D spending because it produces patents (a handy metric for innovation) and money. The question of quality, of whether it actually corresponds to real technological advance, seems to be irrelevant to most people in industry and high office.
The US, seeing itself as a high tech economy, is measuring inputs (R&D money) and gross outputs (patents and the money they produce) and patting itself on the back for the resulting 'growth' (innovation), despite the fact you are producing little or none.
Being completely unaware of the true state of your economy is a dangerous place to be.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
I'd like a card that says;
"I do not have a customer 'loyalty' card. No, I do not want a customer 'loyalty' card."
Would save me hours of wasted time in the average year. Can I patent this idea?
For every person who "takes care to dispose" there's six more who don't.
That's an issue.
No sig today...
Here in Sweden, you pick the type of bag yourself and place it on the conveyor belt along with the groceries. (Assuming of course that you didn't bring your own bags or other suitable container with you.)
And then you pack yourself the groceries into the bags.
A plastic bag costs in the ballpark of 25c (US) and a paper bag about 50c (US).
while true; do eject; eject -t; done
I'd like a card that says;
"I do not have a customer 'loyalty' card. No, I do not want a customer 'loyalty' card."
Would save me hours of wasted time in the average year. Can I patent this idea?
Can I have one that says: "No, I do not want a customer 'loyalty' card. I'd love a customer 'loyalty' blowjob though."?
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
What if the store had a loyalty card that they would be required to present if they wanted my custom?
Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
Many ATMs do this in Europe, they take the fact that you have a non-local card and either offer you a menu in the country of origin or offer you a choice. I have taken a German ATM card to the UK and the ATM switched to German automatically.
See my journal, I write things there
I was dreaming up a whole post about the problems with plastic bags, but I think I'll take it a different way. Forget about saving the world, I don't use plastic bags because they are an inferior tool for the task.
I have several bags that I use for shopping, including: a messenger bag and a canvas tote (which I also use for carrying things generally) and three insulated bags specifically used for grocery shopping. I leave the grocery bags in the car so they are always ready. These bags are better because...
1) I've never had one break in the two years I've used them for shopping. That means since I've started using them I've never had to run into the street to catch rolling cans of tomato sauce, or wash spilled milk out of my driveway - things that both paper and plastic bags have left me doing.
2) The bags are more comfortable for my hands. If I have a heavy grocery load, it's nice to have a wide, padded handle instead of the narrow plastic that digs into my palms. I can even throw my messenger bag over my shoulder.
3) When I use the insulated bags for groceries I can feel just a little safer leaving cold things sit for a bit if I have to run some other errands, or if I go shopping using transit or my bike.
The fact that it's better for the environment and U.S. oil dependency is just icing on the cake. And if I forget my bags, or drop by the store unexpectedly - then I just go ahead and take the paper or plastic bags and use them as liners for my garbage cans.
In some ways you are right, bags are not that bad in the big scheme of things. If you had a choice of creating an alternative to petrol or an alternative to plastic bags - petrol would be the clear answer. But why force yourself into a false dichotomy? Just because something is not a huge problem does not mean it is not a problem. The Pacific Garbage Patch is a dramatic example of how small pieces of litter add up to a big problem.
The environmental issues we face today are the result of generations of incremental and seemingly insignificant choices made by billions of people - why should the solutions be any different? Choose paper because it's just a little bit better than plastic (or, find a way to compost biodegradable bags if you can - even lobby for a organic waste program in your city if you feel like going the extra mile), and if it fits your lifestyle choose reusable bags over paper or plastic because they are better for both you AND the environment.
The size of his bag(fnarr!) is irrelevant, since you wouldn't be able to carry three trolleyloads in any kind of bags - recycleable, reusable or oxygen free carbon fibre with brass knobs on.
If I go to the supermarket on foot, I take a rucksack. If I go by car I use stackable/nestable crates which I fill at the checkout and take straight from the trunk into the house. Perhaps this only works for able-bodied people who have some sort of intelligence and a modicum of organisation?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years.
So, should we not pursue alternative energy also? It takes time to bring to market also. Heck, even educating and convincing consumers to change their habits takes time. We should not pursue your plan by that logic also. Conservation is a good thing, but it won't replace long term production, unless we just stop growing. We have to get our energy from somewhere.
And 5 years is too long? Pfft! What, are you six? Is that forever to you? Who cares if it takes 50 years...think of the grandchildren! But, seriously, have you heard of the futures market, it speculatively bid on things that are, like, in the future. Part of the reason why oil is so high is because the speculation is that there won't be enough oil in the future to meet demand, thanks for that gift, pal.
The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage.
What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.
One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
Is that, by associating you with your bag selection, the store can actually better know in advance how many bags it needs to buy. If you did bring your bags, the store would know it, and could then send you stuff to thank you for your environmental savvy, and then based on data mining, show you some of the promotional items you might be interested.
We all laugh at the IBM Patent, but they are going to make a ton of money off of it.
This is my sig.
What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.
I think you're suggesting that if you save a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread a week, that next week you'll have to make it up by consuming an extra to make up your personal deficit. And that would be true if you'd saved the gallon of gas my not making a trip this week that you have to make up for the next. But if you can reduce your car's "appetite" for fuel, so that it simply requires less fuel to do the same work, then you don't have that personal fuel deficit to make up. You left a gallon of fuel at the station, effectively "adding it to the market".
I'll agree that that's no reason not to pursue long term remedies at the same time. Conservation now can give us a little breathing room, especially if it's something as painless as checking the tires.
I am not a crackpot.
Not all plastic comes from oil. Most forms of biodegradable plastics actually comes from organic substances, normally plant.
That's what makes them biodegradable.
I don't read AC A human right