Debian On the Openmoko Neo FreeRunner Phone

BrianWCarver writes "It was inevitable. One can now run the entire Debian distribution (ARM port) on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner. We previously discussed the July 4th launch of this GNU/Linux-based smartphone, which is open down to its core, with the company providing CAD files and schematics for the phone. Openmoko released an update to their software stack earlier this month, called Om2008.8, which is still a work in progress. But now one can use these instructions on the Debian wiki to open up the possibility of using apt-get to access Debian's more than 20,000 applications on your phone, which, due to integration with freesmartphone.org efforts, can also actually be used as a phone. There were previous efforts to run Debian on the predecessor product to the Neo FreeRunner, the Neo 1973, but with the wider adoption of the Neo FreeRunner and the hard work of many Debian developers at the ongoing DebConf 8, carrying Debian in your pocket has just gotten a lot easier."

Comments

Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian's more than 20,000 applications on your phone, which, due to integration with freesmartphone.org efforts, can also actually be used as a phone...

You're saying that I can install debian on my computer and use it as a phone? The computer weighs about 15kg already. I just need to add a truck battery (another 20kg I guess) and a small array of solar cells (another 180kg). I will then have an utra-portable cell phone! And, it weighs in at only 215kg!

Re:Great

[MrNaz]

There we hae it ladies and gentleman. After years, I think we can say we have found the person with the least understanding of the article and summary.

RTFA? This guy obviously didn't even read the TITLE fully. In fact, given his laughably silly comment, it very well may be that he only read the first word of the title and had some objection with "Debian" and portability.

May I present the new standard setter for Slashdot cluelessness, the man who didn't even RTFT!

Re:Great

[wellingj]

While we are at it, you deserve a whoosh! award.

Re:Great

[cp.tar]

I lagged behind, thought it was just another deadline.

Can it reliably make phone calls yet?

[mrchaotica]

Last I checked, the dialer and address book applications weren't done yet. While it's great that it can do shit like compiling code and whatnot, it's not gonna do me -- as a person who, although a fan of Free Software, doesn't plan on doing OpenMoko development -- any good until it can make phone calls!

Re:Can it reliably make phone calls yet?

[lindi]

I use the "zhone" package to make and receive calls (the same app has also a primitive address book). However, you are correct in that there is probably not much point in using the phone if you have already decided that you don't plan to do any development.

Re:Neo 1973?

[mbeans]

well we are talking about Debian here.

Great

[TheModelEskimo]

Now you too can have a phone with the most hilarious startup sequence ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c0eVdj4E7w

...and run Debian on it too! "Hold on honey, just one more minute...or so...and we'll be running XTerm. It'll be cool!"

On a more serious note, I do happen to love this. You can't expect a geek to know how to do a debian install *and* grasp things like interface design or usability, but nothing's stopping somebody with the skills from building on that foundation.

Re:Neo 1973?

[squidinkcalligraphy]

(I think you're being funny here, but for the record) 1973 was the year of the first call on a mobile phone.

Great learning tool. But what else?

[schnell]

Somebody help me out here. I get that the OpenMoko has great potential as a learning tool - that's unquestionable, and I applaud their efforts. But I'm really struggling to understand whether there is any use for this outside of the learning context.

In terms of platform, Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced, and Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well. I don't think LiMo is going anywhere, but it has the same virtues of openness. And if you care more about open development environments than license types, Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem. On top of that, there are also easy ways into developing for the RIM, Palm and iPhone platforms.

In terms of hardware, this device seems to be lacking even a workable data connection - GPRS is tunneled packet data over channelized voice so you're looking at best case speeds of a 1994 modem (9.6 kbps or so). So broadband apps are out, as is useful e-mail/calendar syncing - at least over the GSM networks. It's also more expensive than the carrier-subsidized devices that everyone likes to complain about how overpriced they are with subsidies ...

So this isn't a rhetorical question, it's a serious one. Other than for folks who just want to learn about the guts of GSM and mobile devices, who would get a practical benefit from buying this phone vs. a Nokia/Symbian, HTC/Android or any other devices from the WinMo, Palm or iPhone families?

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[mrchaotica]

I'm really struggling to understand whether there is any use for this outside of the learning context.

In terms of platform, Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced, and Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well. I don't think LiMo is going anywhere, but it has the same virtues of openness.

The answer is that OpenMoko predates all those things.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[dns_server]

openmoko is the only one that is not currently vaporware.
There is a sdk called android, and a promise to open source symbian (anyone know the licence?).
The only phone and software stack where you can actually make any changes is openmoko, we need to wait till the first devices come out and for google to decide before android is open source and who knows how many months/years till simbian is open.

It does have 2.5g (edge) so it should be fast enough for some internet even if it isn't as fast as 3g.
The extra speed is also only usefull if your network has good coverage and edge is more available at the moment.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer is that OpenMoko predates all those things.

So? Just because it's first doesn't mean it's any good.

I guess maybe that Openmoko is great for leading the whole Open Source Smartphone movement, but Android actually has backing and is usable out of the box. Once you unleash Android, there's no turning back and Openmoko will be a useless anachronism, that is, unless they have a plan to compete with Android (step 1: Make it so that you can actually use it as a phone without a bunch of complex incantations and rituals).

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[mrchaotica]

Android actually has backing and is usable out of the box.

Devices that run Android don't even exist yet. How can you possibly claim it will be usable out of the box?

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Pretty simple: The Openmoko is the closest thing to a "PC" of the phone world that you can get. Nothing else is as open as it is. Symbian isn't OSS yet, and there is no assurance the most of the handsets running it will ever be freed of carrier or manufacturer lockdown. Android doesn't yet exist in the wild, and carries the same risk. LiMo may be open as a stack(save for the DRM bits and bobs); but LiMo handsets in the wild are the usual lockdown stuff. The iPhone is markedly more competent than usual; but nothing happens on that platform without Steve's approval. WinCE might actually be the best of the heap. Closed base; but fairly encouraging for 3rd party work on top of that. Only the OpenMoko is a free implementation of a free stack.

If that doesn't matter to you, it probably isn't the phone for you. Others are more mature, and offer greater economies of scale. If you do want Freedom on the handset, the OpenMoko is it.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[Tubal-Cain]

He installed it on the OpenMoko

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[Anonymous Coward]

even with jailbreak the iphone is still more locked down than windows mobile.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[MichaelSmith]

My laptop is a pretty poor stereo system but that is one of the things I use it for. Yes, the moko is not a great phone if all you want is a phone (I have a motorola C139). But as a multipurpose computing device it may turn out to be quite good.

Re: Great learning tool. But what else?

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything starts this way.

> Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced

So is Java. Has been for ten years now. Wake me when it happens.
(To be fair, Java *has* made real progress in this area, but it was not as smooth or fast as anyone thought it would be - to the point that it got to the very brink or obsolescence a couple of times)

> Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well

Except, compiled against non-standard libraries. Which, in practice, is the only thing that stops it being used, as a software platform, by the OpenMoko itself, right now (and in principal, even this could be overcome, depending on exactly what form the Android codebase ultimately takes)

> Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem. On top of that, there are also easy ways into developing for the RIM, Palm and iPhone platforms.

Yeah, if you want apps specifically for a phone. If you want to compile a current desktop application and use it on your phone, or even the other way around (maybe you really like your calendar/contacts application), well, none of those platforms really allow for that. It's not an Achillie's Heel (yet), but it is a weakness (from the point of view of a developer, mostly, but still).

> In terms of hardware, this device seems to be lacking even a workable data connection - GPRS is tunneled packet data over channelized voice so you're looking at best case speeds of a 1994 modem (9.6 kbps or so). So broadband apps are out, as is useful e-mail/calendar syncing - at least over the GSM networks.

You have WiFi and Bluetooth if you can use it, GPRS as an emergency fallback. It's a phone, not a mobile contact manager. The distinction has been blurred, but primarily, it's a mini computer that can also make phone calls. It also has USB, so there's the possibility of a HSDPA adapter working if you want. If you *must have* built-in world-wide location-independent high-bandwidth wireless data communication... then yeah, this might not be for you. The next revision might be, but this is version 1.0. Don't you know what they say about 1.0 software? It's never as good, in quality terms, as the idea behind it. But it will be, if it makes it to a few versions beyond that.

> It's also more expensive than the carrier-subsidized devices that everyone likes to complain about how overpriced they are with subsidies ...

Carriers will never subsidize a truly open phone. They lose the ability to lock the phone to their network, to extract premiums from DRM'd software/music sales, etc. Any truly open phone will have to succeed on its own merits, because people will have to want to buy the phone at whatever price. One great way to do that is make it do non-phone things as well, so the phone portion of your purchase price is smaller (except, this only works if you *want* the non-phone portion of the phone - think cameras or mp3 players). Think of it more as a micro-form-factor sub-notebook, with a GSM module, making it a practical phone. Common folks don't want their phone to be a computer (heck, they often explicitly refuse to accept it), but that's okay - it's not for them. If, and only if, it is successful enough, then either economies of scale will bring it to the masses at a price they will accept, or clones/imitators will persuade them to embrace this kind of phone.

> So this isn't a rhetorical question, it's a serious one. Other than for folks who just want to learn about the guts of GSM and mobile devices, who would get a practical benefit from buying this phone vs. a Nokia/Symbian, HTC/Android or any other devices from the WinMo, Palm or iPhone families?

I want Open, no matter the cost. I want to be able to open it, dismantle it, reconfigure it, alter it, change it (not necessarily *do* and of those things; just be able to). That's why I got one.

What other phone do you know of where you can buy a debug board for it from the same store that sells the phone - the same board that the phones' engineers used to develop it?

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[jmcnaught]

I have a Freerunner with the hope that I'll be able to use it as a learning device. Right now I've got the Om2008.8 installed and it's barely usable.

I'm hoping Openmoko will be able to keep up a quick development pace. Since switching away from GTK and moving to Qtopia over X11 and Englightenment they've really come a long way. I have doubts that the Openmoko software will be stable and reliable any time soon, but hopefully a developer community will grow out of all the new Freerunner customers.

Another poster mentioned above that this phone is the closest you can get to a PC in a cell phone. Everybody's heard all the freedom related reasons behind Openmoko, but a big part of it for me is fun nerd stuff. There's actually a handful of Linux distributions that run on it, and I'm sure there's more to come. I really like how they're calling them distros and not firmwares. You can dual boot, or boot from the microSD card. The official 2008.8 distro is standard Linux+X11. You can install Debian into a chroot environment and then run any of your Debian apps right along side your Openmoko apps. My phone has Python on it, how cool is that?

It's these things that set Openmoko apart from other Linux mobile initiatives. Openmoko selling Linux computers with integrated cell phones. From what I understand about Android and LiMo the Linux kernel is used but the rest of the stack is nothing like a familiar Linux system.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[dangitman]

Pretty simple: The Openmoko is the closest thing to a "PC" of the phone world that you can get.

That doesn't actually sound like a good thing. It sounds like something to avoid.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[aj50]

Then you're missing his point.

The great thing about PCs is that they're open, you have full control over what software you run on it and you can do whatever you like with it.

Traditionally, phones have been excessively locked down.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[toxygen01]

I can't agree. I would like to have absolute control over what my mobile phone is doing. E.g. whether it is connecting to any bluetooth device or not. I would love to be able to log in to it over ssh to send sms to my friends. I would love to run nginx on it to be able to share my data with my friends over webdav even if there is no internet available. And many more things. For me, I'ts good thing. Btw.: have you ever seen an PC with ARM processor in it?

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[toxygen01]

Right, how comes I have new sony-ericcson and it keeps turning off anytime it wants. My friend experience the same problem, so it's not a bad luck. Another friend of mine bought pricey new nokia N90. And it crashes just similarly like my s-e. If they cannot provide stable softwar, they should let community try. Rather try and fail than not try at all.

Re:Great learning tool. But what else?

[TheRaven64]

EDGE is not 2.5G, it's 2.75G. OpenMoko has 2.5G (GPRS), which is painfully slow - I got an average of around 2.5Kb/s with 2 second latencies back when I used to use GPRS (four years ago, before UMTS phones became cheap).

I have high hopes for OpenMoko - if they can release a HSPDA phone in a year or two with a bigger screen then I'll definitely buy one.

Re:Neo 1973?

[Vectronic]

No it wasn't... the first (cellular) call of a mobile phone would have been somewhere in the mid-60's...

The first "mobile" phone call, was probably in the early 1900's, using radio, however it was limited to a few channels, but could be linked into an actual phone network, albeit cumbersome and annoying, with middle-men.

Re:but

[junner518]

No it doesn't run vista!!!

Re:Right, but...?

[Hal_Porter]

http://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/archives/297-guid.html

The hardware

It was smaller than I thought, and is quite light. My girlfriend says it's ugly, but I'm fine with the look of it. Besides being a GSM-phone, it comes with some nice gimmics: GPS, accelerometer, WLAN. The touchscreen works fine, although I don't have anything to compare it with.

The software

The system it comes with, even after upgrading, is still very rough. It mostly works for doing phone calls and SMSs, but there are a number of unsolved quirks that prevent me from using the Freerunner as my sole phone for now. The suspend mode is left too often, resulting in a battery life of about eight hours, and there are issues with the audio for the conversation partners, who will hear static and echoes. But, as this is free software, there is hope that this will be fixed eventually

It's ok if you bring a Lauterbach and a laptop with you when you carry it. And TALK LOUDLY to make sure people can here you over the static and echoes. Echoes. echoes. ec...

But is it a phone worth having?

[Sentry21]

I've been saying this about my laptop for years, but I guess now it's time to say it about my phone as well.

The phone I use is small, sleek, looks and works great, and does everythin I need it to. It makes phone calls, does SMS messaging great, and I can sync it with my laptop so all my contacts are updated, always. It also has the nice benefit of having a unix core, dpkg, apt, and a slew of unix utilities. It has a terminal with SSH and telnet, I can mount it as a volume over the network, and it plays music too. Even making ringtones for it is as simple as encoding them as AAC.

So they have Debian on a phone. Great. But just like Debian on desktops, I have to ask myself why anyone but RF geeks would ever care.

My phone, like my computers, are for getting things done. Call me when this thing is useful and usable.

Re:But is it a phone worth having?

[Anonymous Coward]

With an attitude like that, why anyone would want call you about it is beyond me....

Re:Right, but...?

[aristos_achaion]

With the FSO stack (the one that's been packaged for Debian), the echo's pretty much gone, and the static's a lot better. There's still a lot of work left, but there's definitely been a lot of progress.

Re:Right, but...?

[RAMMS EIN]

``However... what is it really good for? A phone? Because it really looks like the typical "you can run Linux on it" thingie: you spend 95% of your time tinkering with it and the remaining 5% using it... if you're lucky.''

Not the way I see it. To be completely honest, that used to be the way I used Linux on my PC. Perhaps it used to be the way anyone used Linux on their PC. But it's not like that anymore. Nowadays, I use Debian, because:

1. It costs me less time in maintenance than any other operating system I have experienced.

2. If something doesn't work the way I want it to, or some functionality I want isn't there, I can change that.

3. I spend less time waiting for my system to complete a task then on certain other systems.

All of these improve my user experience and productivity compared to various alternatives. All this has been accomplished thanks to years of hard work by numerous people, who were allowed to perform that work, thanks to Debian being open source.

When a device runs open source software, that is a great plus to me.

Re:What is your phone?

[Pbook]

Please yes, I like to have one! I have my Openmoko now for 1 week and use it as my daily phone. ASU is not stable yet, I am using Qtopia. Looking, at the iPhone of my daughter am am glad I did not get one. It's 10 times locked and everything cost $$. This phone has potential. I can log in and do a networkscan with kismet or ftp my scripts I made at home to a server. Great, I hope that in a few months wifi,gprs and gps will work good enough to use it as well. That is with ASU or Qtopia 4.

Yeah, iPhones are cool - *if* they are jailbroken

[bacchus612]

...I've got one too. And until I jailbroke it, it couldn't ssh, it didn't sync very well, I couldn't install any unix apps...

If you keep the iphone firmware intact, it is just frustrating to know that there is this awesome bsd-based smartphone that stores basically everything in little sqlite databases - THAT YOU CAN'T USE!

I love the functionality of my hacked iPhone, but Apple's attitude with the appstore has really underscored the need for free software to me.
I have decided to no longer purchase apple products or services as a result of my experience with the iPhone (been a Mac user ever since they rolled out OS X).

An openmoko freerunner is definitely on "to buy" list - not because I expect it to be super-functional out of the box, but because I want to (financially) support the concept.

I'm sick of being unreasonably prevented from using the full capability of products I purchase.

If you're happy with one company being in charge of what software you can run on your phone, what network ports you can connect to, what access you have to backup your own personal information...then by all means, stick with the iphone. Good luck with that. I've been burned one too many times by vendor lock-in I guess.
Just my $.02

Re:Right, but...?

[Melkman]

Hmmm, it seems the echo's are still there...

Re:Open down to its core??

[TheRaven64]

Totally Free hardware is an ideal, but it's not feasible at the moment. If you want to go over to OpenCores and start designing a HSPDA chip, then that would be really great. I'm sure the OpenMoko people would love to use it in the next generation, assuming that they can find someone who will fab it cheaply and pay for getting it certified.

The reason people care more about software being free than hardware is twofold:

1. If the software is free then you are not locked in to one hardware platform. If you don't like the hardware you can replace it easily and still access the same applications and data.
2. Non-Free hardware restricts what you can do a lot less than non-Free software. If you don't have total control over the hardware, you can't do some thing in the most efficient way. If you don't have total control over the software then you can't do some things at all.

Re:My rant

[TheRaven64]

PS: Please don't respond with one liners and/or comments about how "free" this phone is, you're missing the point. It's a phone.

Actually, I think you are missing the point. I don't see the Freerunner as a product, I see it as a proof-of-concept. The best outcome for the OpenMoko project is similar to that for OLPC - have other manufacturers take their designs and build improved versions. Right now, Apple, Nokia, and all of their competitors spend a lot of money developing their hardware and software. This is exactly the situation that the personal computer market was in in the early '80s. Then systems like CP/M and DOS started to commoditise the market by allowing you to run your software on any PC that ran this OS. Suddenly, a hardware company could spring up, build a cheap 8088 or 8086 machine, license the operating system cheaply and undercut companies doing everything in-house.

My hope is that OpenMoko (and maybe the new, open source, Symbian releases) will start to do this for mobile phones. Manufacturers will start to appear who build nice hardware and just grab the OpenMoko (or Symbian, or Android) stack and pop it on top.

Open hardware isn't really important at this stage. Anyone can run a compiler, but it takes a lot more investment to create the components required for a phone. As home fabrication becomes cheaper and more capable, this will change, but for now it is more important to have open interface to hardware than open hardware, and this is something OpenMoko and related projects stand a good chance of achieving.

Umm, Debian on the Neo1973 is working just fine

[knewter]

I currently run Debian on my Openmoko Neo1973. The summary implies that it doesn't work, but it absolutely does. I run xfce, with compositing turned on, and it works fine. The pkg-fso is the bit that gets the whole freesmartphone.org stack integrated with debian, so you can use it as a phone.

FSO is the stack that I ran on my phone pre-debian, and it was plenty stable as a phone. The only issues the phone /really/ has are that the other party gets echo sometimes, and yeah GPRS is less great than 3G/EDGE.

But I'll take a phone that's open source any day. Seriously, this is the wearable computer I've always wanted. Couple it with a bluetooth keyboard and just get happy already. I've run at least four different distributions on the phone so far, and it just feels like computers used to.

-Josh

Re:Open down to its core??

[mrchaotica]

Also, what's infeasible about totally Free hardware?

What are you, stupid? Do you not understand that chip fabs are slightly less accessible to normal individuals than compilers are?

but you could make something more limited.

Yeah, more limited like an abacus! Even a fucking four-function calculator requires millions of dollars worth of equipment to manufacture the integrated circuits, LCD screen, etc.

Getting a Carrier Account?

[Doc Ruby]

How do I get an account with a mobile carrier in the US, so this device can actually connect to a wireless phone network and actually make calls?

Is every carrier going to charge me some ripoff fee for an account because I didn't buy my phone from them? Or maybe this unlocked phone will finally let me buy an account with multiple carriers, so I don't get ripped off when "roaming" that does the exact same thing.

When will the US let me choose my mobile phone carrier the way I choose my PC's ISP?

Re:20,000 applications my ass

[musicalwoods]

The screen is VGA (640x480) and you can actually plug in a keyboard as the USB connection can be used in host mode.

Re:Can you still buy it direct?

[musicalwoods]

Well, OpenMoko itself is sold out currently. Other distributors are the only way to purchase the FreeRunner currently.

Re:Open down to its core??

[mrchaotica]

So, use transistors then.

If you used individual transistors, you'd barely be able to fit a single ALU in the space occupied by the entire case of a modern mini-tower PC. Your "computer" would fill up a large room, consume megawatts of electricity, cost millions of dollars, have a clock frequency measured in the tens or hundreds of hertz, and have the same capabilities as that same four-function calculator that I mentioned before.

This just shows the hypocrisy of saying free software should be used, even if it less functional or advanced - and then making excuses when it comes to the hardware side of things, because what the community can build is less functional than what's available off-the-shelf.

On the contrary, that's not hypocritical at all. The difference is that it is possible to make Free software equally functional as proprietary stuff, while it is not possible to make even slightly comparable hardware without spending millions of dollars.

In other words, they advocate "dog-fooding" somewhat less capable Free software because they're working to improve it. For hardware, that would be entirely futile.