Jail 'Greedy' Scam Victims, Says Nigerian Diplomat

AcidAUS writes with this nearly unbelievable snippet from today's Sydney Morning Herald: "The Nigerian high commissioner in Australia says people who are ripped off by so-called Nigerian scams are just as guilty as the fraudsters and should be jailed. Responding to a story in yesterday's Herald, which revealed Australians lose at least $36 million a year to the online scams, Sunday Olu Agbi said Australians had failed to heed repeated warnings not to deal with shady characters on the internet."

Comments

dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Dan B.]

If you are dumb enough to fall for one of the oldest fraud methods in existence, you deserve to lose you money, but not your freedom.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Cassius Corodes]

A fool and his money are soon parted...

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Fleeced]

A fool and his money are soon parted...

That'd make a good slogan:

"Nigeria... parting fools from their money since 1992"

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[kesuki]

http://directmag.com/mag/marketing_oldest_scam/ it at least dates back to 1854, i don't know if that quite qualifies as the 'oldest' scam, personally i thought the oldest scam was pillaging. that came along with the bronze age, if it wasn't already popular in the stone age. (having better weapons allows you to pillage, for a living, without worrying they'll uprise)

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[clarkkent09]

If you are dumb enough to fall for one of the oldest fraud methods in existence, you deserve to lose you money, but not your freedom.

I don't know if it's as clear cut as that. Typically the victims of this scam agree to break the law in some way, in some cases to participate in committing a massive financial fraud. Kind of like those guys who sell crappy speakers dressed up as the expensive ones, and justify the low price by hinting that they are stolen. If the speakers were in fact stolen people would be breaking the law by buying them, so why is it different if they just believe that they are stolen?

No, I don't really think these poor suckers should go to jail, I just don't think it's unbelievable to even suggest that, as the summary says.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[gnick]

If you are dumb enough to fall for one of the oldest fraud methods in existence, you deserve to lose you money, but not your freedom.

Devil's advocate:
Well, they did attempt to commit a crime. If punished, they earned it unless they really thought that what they were doing was somehow legal. If it was made clear to them that the deal was shady and they attempted to go through with it, what difference does it make whether the person at the other end is a scamster or an undercover cop conducting a sting?

Answer to my own question:
1) The victim was actively pursued and persuaded to take part in the illegal activity. That sounds a helluva lot like entrapment.
2) Records of the victim's communications should be inadmissible unless they make a habit out of this kind of crime and there's a warrant to snoop. As far as their attempted fraudulent financial transactions? I dunno, IANAL.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Fools and their money are soon parted but it's good to keep up with the scams so that we can be less foolish. Here are two scams that I've seen recently:

#1) A $3500 cheque with your name on it arrives in the mail. That evening you receive a phone call saying that it was an accident and could you wire back the money, but you can keep $500 for your troubles. So you deposit the cheque and wait a week for it to clear and then send $3000 to the scammer. When a cheque has "cleared" (when money appears in your account) it's not necessarily all done and legit -- the bank can revoke that money for weeks after. So 3 weeks later the bank realises that the cheque was illegitimate and they pull $3500 out of your account so you're down $3000 which has gone to the scammer.

#2) Door to door people from the gas company asking to see gas bills because of a printing error. They might have id and a clipboard and a nice tie, and they might have gotten your name from letters in your letter box. They take down some notes about the bill and perhaps even ask you for id and later they perform some identity theft crime.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[jmorris42]

> Typically the victims of this scam agree to break the law in some way,

Exactly right. Bust em all for attempted wire fraud to start with and go from there. You have to work both ends of the supply and demand on these things, especially since on end is typically in lawless parts of the world like Nigeria but one end is typically in a country where people have enough cash to be worth trying to rip off.

Way too many stupid people think they can try to work those deals, in the belief that they can prevent being ripped off if it is a scam and in the hope they might just hit the one that is 'legit.' These idiots don't understand what is actually happening, that it is usually an identity theft happening. Put the threat of jail time for even TRYING to hook up with the "Nigerean minister of finance" and we might take a bite outta crime. Same for all the other spam scams involving illegal acts. We have to get serious about stopping this crap.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[interactive_civilian]

"It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money." - Canada Bill Jones, 19th century poker player

:D

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Detritus]

No, they don't deserve to lose their money. Not everyone is born with above-average intelligence and a skeptical view of their fellow man. By definition, a large percentage of the population is stupid. That doesn't mean that they deserve to be victimized by the criminal classes of society.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[gnick]

I'm afraid that the scammers have gotten craftier than that - I understand that they're relating to the Aussies very well. The latest one that I had forwarded to me read:

" G'day mate! I were just out in me back yard throwing another dingo on the barbie and bruising up a warm lager when I happened on a smattering of GOLD! Now me and me sheila aren't exactly the rightful owners of this here parcel, but we managed to shift the yellow off onto a friendly bugger who handed over a check. All we need is a good buddy to shift the funds around, take a princely cut for 'imself, and PayPal us the balance.

Whaddaya say, mate? Are we chummy? "

[Sorry to all the real Australians out there - I'm in the US and only speak American. The only Australian that I know I learned from Crocodile Dundee, Yahoo Serious, and the Crocodile Hunter. (But I do have the good sense not to throw a dingo on my barbie).]

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Haoie]

I'm pretty sure that Nigerian scams [and its variants] existed before 1992.

The internet just made it a lot more visible.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Just so that I don't make people paranoid here's how to respond to these two scenarios:

Re #1) Don't deposit or cash the cheque. You may be stung by the bank for fees related to the illegitimate cheque.

Re #2) You should respond to these people to verify who they are by phoning the gas company. Alternatively say that you're going to get the bill and tell them to wait at the door as you close it in their face and go crack open a beer.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[ceoyoyo]

Really, they're very lucky. If the scam wasn't a scam they'd be rotting away in some Nigerian jail for money laundering or fraud. Instead, all they lost was money.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[r_jensen11]

Way too many stupid people think they can try to work those deals...

Whatever. As long as whoever comes out ahead with the money classifies it as 'Illegal Income' when filing his/her tax returns at the end of the year, I'm fine with whatever. The one thing I can't *stand* is tax evaders!

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Fleeced]

I'm pretty sure that Nigerian scams [and its variants] existed before 1992.

The internet just made it a lot more visible.

This is true. In fact, it was a pretty common fax-scam in the 80's - and probably came in many other forms too.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[mellon]

It's not just dumb people. It's your mom or dad, if they wind up with some kind of aging-related disease that affects their judgement. Or you, in a few years. Losing everything because of that is a pretty harsh outcome.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Mr2001]

If the speakers were in fact stolen people would be breaking the law by buying them, so why is it different if they just believe that they are stolen?

Um.. it's different because they aren't actually breaking the law.

Similarly, if you're driving 25 MPH in a 35 zone but you believe you're going 45, you aren't speeding. And if you break into a house, but it turns out to be your own house, you aren't trespassing.

Arrest the real criminals, not people who mistakenly think they're criminals.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[WGFCrafty]

Or:

"Nigeria... jailing fools for parting with their money since 2008."

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[eln]

I just don't get how people are stupid enough to fall for #1. A check is just a piece of paper until it's cashed. Offer to void it and send it back to them through the mail. If they refuse, they're obviously shady, so just hang up. I guess it's the same reason people fall for all scams: they let their greed get in the way of their common sense.

#2 is a little more understandable since people tend to trust people in uniform, but giving anyone the kind of information they would need to steal your identity is just foolish unless you initiated the interaction yourself (say, by calling the gas company directly).

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Firehed]

Not quite. By definition, half of the population is of below-average intelligence: at or below 100 IQ points. Right now, average isn't going too far and seems to be getting worse by the day (see: idiocracy), but that doesn't mean it always has or will be the case. Yes, when you fit a bell curve to the entire human population, half by definition have to fall on the left side, but that entire bell curve can (and does) still shift relative to a point that one might consider "smart".

Now I agree that doesn't mean that stupid people should become fraud victims (unless I profit, in which case all bets are off), I just felt the need to be pedantic especially given the context of the discussion.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[sjames]

That's certainly how they started, and most of the unlikely stories are still structured as embezzlement, but there are a few that *could* appear to be legal if you're naive enough (and anyone falling for the scam IS).

Then, there's the spam I got the other day claiming to be from the FBI. It claimed that they were aware of my pending transaction and that their investigations had found it to be perfectly legal and legitimate. If you're naive enough to believe the crazy scam in the first place, you'll likely think the follow-up actually came from the FBI as well.

Another largish chunk make it look like they need your help to scam a bank before it confiscates someone's inheritance. While that's not exactly legal, neither is what they claim that the bank will do otherwise. If you somehow manage to take the story at face value, the victim could believe that they are bending the rules a bit to prevent a much larger injustice.

In those cases, it *IS* close to unbelievable that a diplomat from the country that does nothing to control the rampant fraud would dare to blame the victim. The fraud is so prevalent that for many fraud and Nigeria have become synonymous.

Then, of course, there's the death threat extortions. Does he think those are the victim's fault as well?

While I agree that this is perpetrated by a small percentage of the population, and I can sympathize with all Nigerians who get painted with the same brush as the frauds, his statement wasn't very diplomatic to say the least. Perhaps a more constructive approach would be to ask for assistance in tracking down the scammers.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[statusbar]

A fool and his money are best parted, because the last thing you want in this world are fools with economic power.

--jeffk++

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Samah]

Nice one ;)
Some corrections for you though, so that next time you can REALLY sound like an Aussie.
* Obviously you quite tastefully combined the "dingo ate my baby" and "shrimp on the barbie", but I'll point out that most Australians call it a "prawn", and I personally don't know ANYONE who barbecues them.
* Australians drink lager cold (except the weird ones...) I believe the stereotype is that the British drink it warm, but I don't know if that's true. One of my Brit friends told me it was "bollocks".
* Australians (for the most part) follow British English conventions, so it's "cheque", not "check".
The rest is bonza ;)

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[CoopersPale]

A VB mate, Victoria Bitter.
Known just by it's colour up north, as in 'I'll have a slab of green tins mate'.
Fosters is a rarity in Australia, I think its made overseas more than in Oz.

But I'd prefer a Coopers.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[MrCreosote]

"(But I do have the good sense not to throw a dingo on my barbie)"

Quite right. Dingo's are best pan fried, with some garlic, shallots, cream and white wine. Thylacines were the preferred choice of fauna for the BBQ, but the demand led to their extinction. Tasmanian Devils make a poor substitute.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Gideon Fubar]

Warm larger? Are you mad, or British?

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Naturalis Philosopho]

Given the magnitude of the sums purportedly to be funneled out of these poor countries, the "victims" in these cases are more analogous to someone who takes money and a gun from someone to kill another person but when they pull the trigger the (rigged) gun blows up on them. Sure, they got hurt, but they should still go to jail for the attempted murder and conspiracy. Wire fraud is illegal. Why shouldn't attempted wire fraud be? Just because they lost some money too?

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Pantero Blanco]

A fool and his money are best parted, because the last thing you want in this world are fools with economic power.

True, but having leeches who live off of others and don't mind wrecking a stranger's life isn't any better.

Someone willing to cheat a fool is probably willing to cheat you too, and there are plenty of fools in positions that will let them do it.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[GradiusCVK]

1: Entrapment is when a law enforcement official convinces you to break the law. If a drug dealer walks up to you on the street and convinces you to buy a kilo of heroin, you're going to jail buddy.
2: Making a habit out of something is irrelevant. In fact, a person's history of criminality is inadmissible as evidence for or against them (thanks to the Constitution, I think). It may be used in determining their punishment if convicted, but not in determining their guilt. Only evidence relating to their current trial is admissible for that. That said, records of their communications directly related to the current trial are most certainly admissible, and the police would no doubt get a warrant to obtain that obvious source of information.

As far as their attempted fraudulent financial transactions...

...they are illegal. Look up "fraud".

I dunno, IANAL

No kidding... neither am, I but this is pretty basic stuff here. How does something like that earn +5 insightful??

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[chthon]

Already in the 80's, with fax machines instead of the internet.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[I cant believe its n]

And before that, they used the african swallow.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Dr_Barnowl]

Pillaging is hardly a scam. It's immoral, but it is at least honest. Unless you lie about it, of course.

"I'm only killing people with genetic defects! It's for the good of your gene pool!"

"I'm stimulating the yurt building industry!"

"I'm a radical environmentalist and you're wrecking the local squirrel population!"

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[nickname29]

The one thing I can't *stand* is tax evaders!

Yeah I know. Tax evaders are evil - they are withholding money from the state that could be used to finance our wars in Iraq!

Personally I feel that any american that is paying tax is just as guilty as Bush for the war in Iraq. If you do not like the war, stop paying tax (pay it into a trust until they stop).

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Alioth]

The unintended consequence of this will be to deter the reporting of any attempted financial scam (such as reporting boiler rooms) because the victim will fear that if they did something wrong they may get prosecuted. Indeed, boiler room scammers would probably use this as a threat to continue being suckered and NOT report it (even though the scamee in these instances is not attempting anything illegal - but if they can be suckered in by a boiler room, they can also be suckered in by a boiler room claiming they are now part of a fraud themselves).

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Alioth]

British don't drink lager warm. But ale is drunk at the temperature it comes up from the cellar, which is warmer than lager typically is. But then again, lager is served ice cold so you can't actually taste it, because let's face it, most mass produced lagers are pretty rank.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[jacquesm]

In general there is a really simple rule to protect yourself from scams: If you did not initiate the transaction it is with high probability a scam.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[joto]

I just don't get how people are stupid enough to fall for #1. A check is just a piece of paper until it's cashed. Offer to void it and send it back to them through the mail.

It is stupid to fall for #1, but it's not dishonest. And a lot of people really are not very smart. Or they have too positive a view of humanity to distrust someone who makes such a reasonable request.

It is dishonest. An honest person would throw the cheque away. Why would you even bother cashing the cheque if it wasn't your money? The only reason would be greed. Only people who want "something for nothing" are going to go for this kind of fraud. Exactly the same people who fall for the nigerian scam.

Where is the "positive view of humanity" in someone who is so greedy that they'd rather cash in $500 just because someone erroneously sent them a cheque, instead of just tearing it apart? I would describe such a person as "selfish" and "greedy", not "nice".

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[testadicazzo]

If one actually RTFA, one finds the ambassador is specifically talking about scams in which a criminal element is involved. From the article:

In one version, the scammer poses as a government worker who has embezzled millions of dollars and is offering victims a percentage if they help retrieve the money by providing a relatively small amount of money for bribes or other charges. Professor Olu Agbi said "greedy" Australians who tried to partake in these crimes - even though they are scams - should be arrested as well.

In this context I'd agree with him. They got what they deserved. But of course these are only a subset of all of the nigerian scams out there.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Daimanta]

fully loaded or half-loaded?

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[mspohr]

I had a business in the 80's and used to get these letters regularly. Same wording and scam as the current crop but sent as an actual postal mail letter... so even with the cost of the postage, this must have paid well.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[mcvos]

It is dishonest. An honest person would throw the cheque away. Why would you even bother cashing the cheque if it wasn't your money? The only reason would be greed.

Not quite understanding how cheques work is also a possible reason. Few people use cheques nowadays, so a lot of people won't have any experience with them, and might think it's the cheque itself that's worth something.

Ofcourse even then simply sending the cheque back makes more sense, but a lot of people just aren't very logical thinkers.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[zotz]

"#2 is a little more understandable since people tend to trust people in uniform, but giving anyone the kind of information they would need to steal your identity is just foolish unless you initiated the interaction yourself (say, by calling the gas company directly)."

Perhaps, but what is truly foolish is to set up the system where an identity can be stolen with such easily obtained information.

all the best,

drew

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[hal2814]

A better scam that's similar to #1 is one of the work from home scams. You sign up for a work from home service and they set up direct deposit for you. Before you even start working, you notice they already deposited $3500. They tell you it's a mistake and have you wire $3000 of it back out but let you keep $500 as your first paycheck. Your work from home profession? A money launderer. The bank will take all $3500 back out and you can explain to law enforcement why money illegally wired from another account ended up in your account and then went overseas. If you paid attention, you'd notice that the account sending in money was not the same one as the account you wired money to.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[Thelasko]

Most Nigerian 419 scams are a variant of a much older scam known as the Spanish Prisoner. It dates back to the early 1900s.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[arthurpaliden]

Actually they have been around since at least the 1700's when the masses learned to read and write.

As to the point about charging the ones getting caught. They should be charged with conspericy to commint a crime since that is what they are usually agreeing to do.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[mr_mischief]

This appears to be a cultural difference. Many single-unit houses and small apartment buildings in the US have a receptacle at the curb or next to the front door that holds the mail. Some people have slots and big apartment complexes have locking boxes, but many people step outside and open an unlocked door to get their mail.

Re:dumb people lose money, not freedom

[AK Marc]

It is dishonest. An honest person would throw the cheque away.

The owner of the check tells you to cash it. How is that dishonest? You seem to be confusing "wrong" or "immoral" or some other subjective measure with the objective "dishonest." The person that cashes the check never lies, never cheats, and never takes more than what is offered first by someone else. That can't be dishonest, even if you otherwise look down upon their actions.

I would describe such a person as "selfish" and "greedy", not "nice".

Fine, call them all those things. But don't call them dishonest, as that's an incorrect characterization.

I guess this has some merit...

[bigstrat2003]

I applaud his forward thinking in trying to get rid of stupid people, but I really don't think jail is an option. We're just gonna have to put up with them. Sorry man.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Anonymous Coward]

If all the stupid people are put in jail, then it's gonna be very lonely out here.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Scutter]

If only there was a big island somewhere where we could send all these idiots.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[ancientt]

Actually they provide a significant form of revenue. Whoever came up with the lottery was a genius!

"Today we are announcing a state tax on stupi... er, a state lottery!"

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[sumdumass]

Finally, someone else who thinks the lottery is a stupid tax.

Well, I bet other think that but your one of the first I have saw say it. You know it is bad when the state starts refusing to allow casinos because the lottery is a significant portion of their budget and they are afraid of loosing that.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Fleeced]

If all the stupid people are put in jail, then it's gonna be very lonely out here.

What makes you think you'd be out here?

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Anonymous Coward]

As I think about it, this guy has a point. The scams involve approaching you under the guise of embezzling funds. Last time I checked, any of the activities they scammers want you to engage in are illegal. That being the case, it seems like a few crimes are involved -- embezzlement on both ends, and the theft of money by the Nigerian involved.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there was a big island somewhere where we could send all these idiots.

hello i am allujabullshitname prince of nigeria. i am writing to you in the worst of health, i am afraid i may die soon, but do not worry, god is on my side. i recently have come acrsoss a islannd worth millions of american dollars an am looking for a governnment to deposit tyhe land masses.

this millions of dollars of land is perfect to send all sorts of idiots, but i am afraid that i am to lose it soon, as there are those who conspire against me. but i am not afraid, for the lord will protect me.

please send me your account so i can deposit..

Oh, what the hell.. I actually don't know enough about international property law to know what kind of system you'd deposit land rights into anyway.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[EvanED]

I am somewhat sympathetic to your argument, but I don't buy it. It can be entirely reasonable to play the lottery, though not very regularly.

Let's say that once a month you get a Powerball ticket with Powerplay, costing (according to Wikipedia) $2. You do this for 50 years. (In other words, you play the lottery starting when you are 20 until you're 70.)

According to this compound interest calculator, if you aggressively invested that money instead and got 10% annual return for that timespan (probably entirely ridiculous), at the end of that you'd have $30,727. If we were to assume an already-optimistic 7% rate of return, that's only $10,500.

If you were to play every other month (or not get powerplay) and get 10%, you're at $15,500, and at 7%, $5,200.

In addition, you're not really going to be out all that money... on average, Wikipedia says the powerball has about a 50% rate of return. Which means that the $15,500 and $5,200 numbers are actually more realistic if you pay $2/mth.

While it's not exactly a shabby sum, it's also not that much money if you've been wise with other investments. Giving up that amount of money is probably not really going to change your lifestyle. You might lose out on a couple vacations you could take when retired or something. (If we are even a little more conservative with how much we spend on the lottery... you play for 40 years instead of 50, spending $1/mth but getting back half, and could get 7% otherwise, you're looking at $1,200. That's barely enough for one "fancy" vacation.)

Now, at the same time, in the very very remote chance you were to actually win a jackpot, your life would change. If you won even a million dollars -- let alone tens of millions -- you might be able to retire now (depending on how old you are), go buy a farm, do almost anything you want monitarily.

It is not unreasonable to say "I'll take one less vacation when I'm 70 in exchange for an almost-zero-but-not-quite chance of a totally life-changing event."

(The fact that a lot of lottery winnings result in people blowing through the winnings quickly, sometimes result in failed families or other bad effects, or that a lot of people don't play the lottery this way and actually put significant money into it is beside the point that playing the lottery isn't necessarily an irrational move.)

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Tubal-Cain]

You don't need to. Just say that's it's all very complicated but you will take care of all the details before you die.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[S1mmo 61]

They already did, once America was full, they sent them all downunder

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[srjh]

No, America got the puritans, we got the criminals.

Come to think of it, I think we got the better deal.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[z0idberg]

You're not doing a very good job of selling your superior intelligence with that post........

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[gnick]

I mean seriously, how is the $400m MEGADRAW going to affect your life compared to $10m? You'd be stupid to be holding out for such a huge amount.

That's my big deterrent. $1000 is worth 100 x $10 to me. $100k is worth 100 x $1000 to me. But I can't really say that $10M is worth 100 x $100k to me. And beyond that it drops off even faster. I'm not a big financial investor and have no need for $400M. It would be nice and I'd have fun with it, but it's not worth 400e6 x $1 in my limited scope of the world.

I'd be much more likely to play the ~$200k type drawings, but I studied statistics all the way to post grad. And, I'm a little OCD. I can't spend a buck on something like that without running the numbers and making sure that I'm getting a positive rate of return - When the Powerball got high and my wife insisted on buying tickets, I put together spreadsheets comparing the various lotteries we have access to, factored in odds of winning at various levels, and valuated the various options for tickets. [We still bought Powerball tickets - I mentioned that I'd run numbers but decided that her excitement/hope/fun was worth the difference in rational spending and never showed them to her. I'm not convinced that the Powerball has ever broken even on rate of return - Not even close once you factor in taxes and the increased possibility of a shared pot due to a swell in play for a large pot.]

For the record, I bought 1 scratcher when NM legalized the lottery - I won $1 and broke even. I consider myself a winner and won't play again.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[Paradise Pete]

Fucking kangaroos.

Hey, it's not as easy as it looks. What with all the hopping around and all.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[mcvos]

Finally, someone else who thinks the lottery is a stupid tax.

Well, I bet other think that but your one of the first I have saw say it.

Then you haven't been paying attention. Ages ago I also called lotteries a stupidity tax, and I doubt I made that up myself.

It's wrong, though. Lotteries aren't any more a tax on stupidity than paying for bungeejumping is. It's not about the money, it's about the thrill, the idea that you could win. Not everything in life is about monetary return on investment.

I never play in a lottery, but I know people who do, fully aware that they'll never win back what they spend on it. But that's not why they play.

Calling lotteries a stupid tax is very profound when you're in highschool and just figured out how probabilities work. But as you grow up, you should realise that people are getting more from it than just money. They pay for a dream, and it's a pretty nice dream, even if it's not true.

Re:I guess this has some merit...

[DrHyde]

America got the criminals too. Mostly in the Virginia and Georgia colonies. You obviously didn't get enough of them.

Well said...

[NFN_NLN]

"It's hard to con an honest man."

Re:Well said...

[Cassius Corodes]

No its not, they are the easiest to scam - you just have to make the scam appeal to a different aspect. i.e. solicit donations to non-existent charities, say one of their relatives owes money etc.

Re:Well said...

[Fleeced]

"It's hard to con an honest man."

In the words of Terry Pratchett:

There is a saying - "You can't fool an honest man" - which is much quoted by people who make a profitable living by fooling honest men.

Re:Well said...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I think you missed a bit of the point by fixating on just one kind of scam.

Scammers can go around saying they don't have any money at all.

All a scammer has to con an honest person is say that they need money for their family, even if no family is there. They can even have pictures of some family that really isn't theirs, or are really estranged. In some areas, fake panhandlers live better than the people that they con, even though no one gains anything buy giving them money.

Re:Well said...

[Jeff Vader]

There is nothing well said about this kind of logic. Women have been told not to jog alone at night many times - are they then responsible for being raped if that occurs? Better yet, should we jail these women? Slippery slope when you blame a victim.

Re:Well said...

[Tom90deg]

I think the actual quote is "You can cheat a honest man, but not make a fool out of him."

Re:Well said...

[broohaha]

I'd say it isn't. I was scammed into helping what I thought was a stranded student who'd got his wallet stolen and needed some cash to go home to a far suburb. It was early in my life working downtown, and I believed the guy. I was totally fooled.

How did I know this? Three weeks later, i saw the same kid walking around doing the exact same thing soliciting help for cash, only a few blocks away from where I gave him ten bucks. Motherfucker, I thought.

Re:Well said...

[skelly33]

"In some areas, fake panhandlers live better than the people that they con"

True that! I had a friend in San Francisco offer a homeless man $15/hr to come in and paint his apartment - he declined saying he could make more on the street corner. That attitude is exactly why I never dole out cash to pan handlers, though perhaps will offer a morsel of food on occasion.

Re:Well said...

[djdavetrouble]

I live in SF

True story, wife saw a daily panhandler one day getting out of his Lexus with Jersey plates. He then
went into his trunk, took some dirt out of a bag and rubbed it on his clothes and face....
getting ready for the day.....

Re:Well said...

[jpatters]

The most creative panhandler I have ever seen had a sign that went like this:

"Ninjas killed my family. Please give me money to go to karate school."

He gut busted by the police because it turned out that his family had not, actually, been killed by ninjas.

Teh obvious linkage

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.419eater.com

Just to be clear...

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

Since the summary doesn't make this clear and I'm sure plenty of people won't RTFA, the good professor is referring to jailing those people who fall for scams in which they believe they are aiding embezzlers in order to get rich. It'll never happen of course, but it's not that unreasonable either really.

Somehow being a greedy criminal is OK as long as you're dumb enough to wind up as the victim in the attempt.

Re:Just to be clear...

[hkz]

Sorry, but the victims are innocent until proven guilty. They haven't _yet_ undertaken anything criminal, just arguably shown intent. I don't want to be a stickler, but that means they get the benefit of the doubt.

Re:Just to be clear...

[Cathoderoytube]

It really depends on which scam you fall victim to.
Take this case of a hapless drug addict who called the cops after she was sold fake cocaine. They arrested her on drug charges despite the lack of any real cocaine.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293112,00.html

Re:Just to be clear...

[TubeSteak]

Sorry, but the victims are innocent until proven guilty. They haven't _yet_ undertaken anything criminal, just arguably shown intent. I don't want to be a stickler, but that means they get the benefit of the doubt.

Sure, but innocent until proven guilty != innocent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)

In the criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between natural persons to break the law at some time in the future, and, in some cases, with at least one overt act in furtherance of that agreement. There is no limit on the number participating in the conspiracy and, in most countries, no requirement that any steps have been taken to put the plan into effect

I'm sympathetic to the notion that getting scammed is enough punishment for these idiots, but I have no doubt that prosecuting a few of them for conspiracy to commit [crimes] would make national headlines and give the media & government an opportunity to educate the populace.

Re:why not...?

[NFN_NLN]

why not block all automatic financial/bank transactions with Nigeria? Make it so some body has to sign for it, etc.

heck....if both parties are "guilty", why not put road-blocks to block both?

Why not RTFM?

"Professor Olu Agbi said there were almost 140 million people in Nigeria and fewer than 0.1 per cent were involved."

That's a great idea! Let's make it harder for the 99.9% of law abiding people because of a couple of jack-asses. Furthermore let's make sure we invest a lot of government money to put this new sign-off system in place... at least $36M+/year to make it extra ironic.

Gday

[$0.02]

Mate, My name is Steve Oakland of Sydney Australia. Recently I have received a large sum of USD 25,000,000 from Mr Aruba of Nigeria. However due to some new legislation I may be having some problems with our bottom-up laws. So I have to transfer that money to a third country ASAP. I will offer you 20% of the money in exchange for your small inconvenience, 70% will be for me, and 10% for the transaction costs ...

iReal?

[Tablizer]

The very idea that a real flesh-and-blood Nigerian diplomat actually exists feels so strange. It would be like meeting the real Duke Nukem.
     

Re:why not...?

[Free the Cowards]

This is poor math.

What percentage of those 140,000 scammers participate in international transactions? Just about 100%.

What percentage of the 140 million normal people participate in international transactions? Not quite 0%, but very close to it.

It's quite possible that the vast majority of Nigerians making international transactions are scammers. Maybe it's not, I don't have the numbers. But you can't just say that because 99.9% of people are law abiding, this measure shouldn't be taken.

Fraud is fraud.

[Vellmont]

This is simply an argument to try to divert blame. I don't really care that the other side is a willing victim. Fraud is fraud, and I have a hard time believing that the Nigerian goverment is really doing all that much about it. Nigeria is a Kleptocracy, so corruption is endemic in the society. I'm sure a few well placed bribes keeps the cops away. It's not really that hard to find these guys after all since the money eventually has to go somewhere.

Re:You can't jail people for stupidity.

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

RTFA. He isn't suggesting people be jailed for stupidity, he's suggesting they be jailed for willingly aiding in a crime (or at least believing they are).

It's articles like this where the summary has completely missed the point that really highlights just how bad slashdotters are when it comes to reading articles. TFA is short and clear about the what the man was really suggesting and yet already some 90% of (non-joke) comments are about how stupidity isn't a crime.

And shame on the slashdot editor who posted this. I can't believe anyone could miss the point of the article so badly, so either he didn't read it or he deliberately went with a misleading summary for the extra "outrage" comments.

I'll post the pertinent bit here to save everyone the terrible inconvenience of clicking the article link:

In one version, the scammer poses as a government worker who has embezzled millions of dollars and is offering victims a percentage if they help retrieve the money by providing a relatively small amount of money for bribes or other charges.

Professor Olu Agbi said "greedy" Australians who tried to partake in these crimes - even though they are scams - should be arrested as well.

"People who send their money are as guilty as those who are asking them to send the money," he said.

Not so outrageous now is it?

I just got an email about this!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nigerian High Commissioner Olu Agbi said if I don't send him $1,000 by Western Union in the next 24 hours that he'll throw me in jail!

Re:I Will Be Rich in a Few Weeks

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Swing and a miss. Gotta try harder for a Funny mod.

Sounds like familiar logic here on /.

[unassimilatible]

First Slashdotters blame copyright holders for not protecting their works better. Then it is Nigerians blaming scam victims. What's next? Don't lock your door, you deserve to be robbed? And women who dress provocatively deserve to be raped?

Isn't this the same Web site that wants the government to intervene to lower the price of Windows, or supports early iphone adopters who paid the stupid tax suing Apple because they had the audacity to lower prices?

I'm all for passing a Digital Consumer Rights Act to protect fair use and end user licensees, but some of the amoral "logic" here boggles the mind. If it is bad for Microsoft or Sony to rip off consumers, it's bad for you to rip off them.

Honest people are easy to scam. Just not this scam

[WK2]

Honest people are the easiest to scam. People tend to project their attributes onto others, and honest people tend to be more trusting than the rest of us. Although an honest person would certainly not fall for this scam.

Scamming honest people makes for poor movies. Their is only one double-cross, and no twists. It's too easy.

Conspiracy to commit fraud???

[sribe]

It's may be harsh, but he's got a point. If you actually bother to read any of these things, they often do sound like getting the fortune out of the country involves breaking the local laws. Just because your partner screws you does not immediately render you innocent if you were in fact plotting illegal activity.

This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[syousef]

Jailing the victim is asinine and a sure sign that the authorities are lazy and stupid themselves.

How is this any different to saying that a girl that goes into a rough neighbourhood in a mini-skirt and is raped should also be jailed? Just because someone puts themself in a position where they are easy prey doesn't mean that we should lash out against them if we find it difficult to prosecute the criminal.

What they'll do is make it a crime to send money. A few years ago they made it illegal in NSW, Australia to leave your car unlocked. The rationale was that stolen cars were being used to commit crime and a deterent was needed to stop people making their cars easy to steal. Never mind the inconvenient fact that glass windows are trivial to break. Personally I think this had more to do with car insurance fraud than a crime epidemic. So now rushing to work and forgetting to lock your car makes you a criminal, rather than just making you negligent (and possibly causing you to forfeit an insurance claim).

I think people who don't understand their role as a public servant and propose solutions like making a victim a criminal should be sacked, if not jailed themselves.

Re:This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[Sir_Lewk]

I think it would be more similar to jailing the prostitute who was raped for prostitution.

Re:This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[I'll Provide The War]

"How is this any different to saying that a girl that goes into a rough neighbourhood in a mini-skirt and is raped should also be jailed?"

TFA:

In one version, the scammer poses as a government worker who has embezzled millions of dollars and is offering victims a percentage if they help retrieve the money by providing a relatively small amount of money for bribes or other charges.

Professor Olu Agbi said "greedy" Australians who tried to partake in these crimes - even though they are scams - should be arrested as well.

Wearing a mini-skirt is not illegal. International money laundering and bribing foreign officials are both illegal. There is the difference.

Re:This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this any different to saying that a girl that goes into a rough neighborhood in a mini-skirt and is raped should also be jailed?

The difference is that walking around in a miniskirt, and even visiting your lover and having sex, is not illegal (certain middle-eastern countries notwithstanding).

But one of those "help me get money out of the country" scans, if it were a real legitimate proposition, is still very much illegal, in that if it were ever carried out all parties involved could be found guilty of money laundering and such.

Re:This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[RedWizzard]

Jailing the victim is asinine and a sure sign that the authorities are lazy and stupid themselves.

Most of these scams basically boil down to "give me $ and together we can steal/embezzle/defraud $$$". So the "victim" hands over $ and then the conman vanishes. But the "victim" willingly joined a conspiracy to commit a crime. Joining a conspiracy is often a crime in itself even if the "actual" crime never occurs. The scams usually present the crime as victimless (owner of the money deceased, no inheritors) or morally justified (money from an evil regime), but anyone with a minimal degree of honesty can still see that it is wrong.

How is this any different to saying that a girl that goes into a rough neighbourhood in a mini-skirt and is raped should also be jailed?

Totally different. The girl in the mini-skirt is totally innocent, the "victim" of these scams is usually not totally innocent. It's really no different than if I say to you "give me $50 so I can buy a lockpick and then we'll rob this house together" and then disappear with your $50.

Re:This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[syousef]

Most of these scams basically boil down to "give me $ and together we can steal/embezzle/defraud $$$". So the "victim" hands over $ and then the conman vanishes. But the "victim" willingly joined a conspiracy to commit a crime.

Most of the victims of the crime have no understanding of either how the scam is suppose to work, nor what the scammer is offering, or they'd never part with their money. These are stupid people who don't know what they're doing and are usually negligent in checking whether it is in fact illegal rather than agreeing to commit a crime.

It's the same as these idiots that SMS to mobile phone companies that charge for messages each way and then are inundated with hundreds of messages charged at several dollars each. Strictly speaking they agreed to download that porn snippet or ring tone or mobile phone game and are liable for the amount but it's clearly a scam nonetheless, and if the victim understood how it worked they wouldn't participate.

Totally different. The girl in the mini-skirt is totally innocent ...until you make it a crime to wear a miniskirt, or go out late at night alone.

the "victim" of these scams is usually not totally innocent.

The victim of the scam is usually some poor moron that doesn't have 2 spare braincells to rub together.

It's really no different than if I say to you "give me $50 so I can buy a lockpick and then we'll rob this house together" and then disappear with your $50.

Except that people understand how lockpicks work and how the crime works. A better analogy would be a guy offering to help you by buying you a hunting knife if you'll help him pick one out for himself, then he steals the hunting knife from the store while you have the sales person distracted, meets you outside, robs you at knife-point, and stabs you to death.

Re:This is offensive. Stupidity is not a crime.

[Dan541]

I haven't heard of the law the you must stop at a red light, magistrate didn't buy it.

Yeah right

[uxbn_kuribo]

Like we're going to listen to Nigerian officials when it comes to money matters. Hell, they can't even keep their Princes from losing access to their fortunes, requiring honest, hard-working Americans to help them out!

I approve

[Anonymous Coward]

I approve.
-Darwin

He's deflecting Nigeria's stigma

[banffbug]

I somehow doubt he actually believes in jailing these people. He's simply pointing out their guilt, to reduce the guilt of his own country's people.

Fraud, Stupid people, and lotteries.

[mlwmohawk]

The stupid will always be the prime target for those who will take their money. The prime candidate is, of course, government lotteries, you know, taxation for those who are lacking math skills.

Anyone who sends money to an entity that can not be properly vetted is a greedy fool.

Is that a criminal action? No. If we locked up everyone that was stupid and greedy, we wouldn't have any police, state level politicians, public school teachers, car salesmen, plumbers, electricians, car mechanics, etc.

Text of email

[xstonedogx]

dont know if it's tru? forwarding just incase! love to everyone!

>>> Nverian Hig h Commisioner Ololu Ogelvi warned all RED BLOODED AMERICAN PATRIOTS
>>> that if they don't send him $1,000 by Western Union in the next 24 hours that he
>>> will kill a kitt
>>> en.

>> Thx Maude! I just sent t>
>> his to everyone on my ma
>> iling list! Why does
>>> PLEASE SUPPORT OUR TROPS IN WESTERIA
>>> FORWARDING THIS EMAIL TO EVERYONE
>>> YOU KNOW!!111!1!!!1!

>>> GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Re:Text of email

[furbearntrout]

I think I found it, but it's more of a teal color. All I could find in it was some lint. Are you overdrawn?

Greetings!

[TheSHAD0W]

Permit me to introduce myself, my name is TheSHAD0W and I was an officer in a now defunct company that performed 419 advance fee fraud scams and was based in Nigeria. This company's bank account now holds $36 million dollars which was scammed from Australian citizens. I am the only officer who was not arrested and murdered in jail and I now seek assistance in transferring these funds to the United States. The person who will assist in transferring this money will receive $3 million dollars and my gratitude. If you are interested please email your full name, social security number, birth date, and bank routing and account number to scammer@iamadoodyhead.co.ng please.

I love this quote

[StrahdVZ]

"It is not in the character of Nigerians to be engaged in this kind of scam."

Professor Olu Agbi said there were almost 140 million people in Nigeria and fewer than 0.1 per cent were involved.

140,000 scammers? Gee is that all? :P

Re:I love this quote

[spfoo]

In the US it was "only" 0.7% in 2003 according to http://salt.claretianpubs.org/sjnews/2003/04/sjn0304f.html [claretianpubs.org]. But hey that makes 2 million people. Wonder how the rest of the developed world is doing?

Re:If you think Entrapment is OK...

[Gorshkov]

There is a reason for laws against entrapment.

Entrapment is when agents of the government - ie, law enforcement officials - trick somebody into breaking the law.

If a cop talks somebody into breaking into a bank and then arrests him, the case will be thrown out for entrapment.

But if I double-dog dare somebody to break into a bank and they do so, the only thing I'm guilty of is having an idiot for a friend.

Sound the alarms!

[ZarathustraDK]

They're like...trying to outlaw natural selection!

You are making more stupid people, please don't do it!

Uuhh shiny...

Re:Well except

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

But again you're missing the point and clearly haven't read the article or even my post properly. Nobody is suggesting that the victim of every E-mail scam should be imprisoned. Mr. Agbi is explicitly stating that people who fall victims of scams in which they pay money believing that they are aiding in a different crime in hopes of receiving a cut of the profits from it should face prison.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that sentiment but it certainly isn't so ridiculous or outlandish as the /. summary would have you believe.

Not so

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Have a look at some typical letters at http://www.nigerianscambuster.com/letters.html . Of those, most are asking people to help divert funds that were found in a deceased person's estate or by other means. Only one of these asks for help to keep their money because their assets are frozen (so you'd be involved in money laundering). Even that act looks pretty dodgy since they hint that the person might get killed, leaving Joe Sucker with all the money. Anyone falling for this is hardly acting in a charitable way.

There is a huge difference in helping out someone at payday and helping a suspected criminal bypass the law. If one of those check cashing operations was helping the Mob handle their transactions they'd get stung for money laundering.

Be careful! Some scams are not as obvious.

[suck_burners_rice]

I do NOT think that scam VICTIMS need to be jailed, whether they are greedy or not.

Yes, you'd have to be a total numbskull to believe some of the stories that scammers use. But if you read the next paragraph, you'll see that even someone who isn't "stupid" can be fooled. Ridiculous and obvious scams come with stories that your uncle's long-lost twin (separated at birth) who lived in Zimbabwe and ran a diamond mine just died in a tragic car accident and you were the only beneficiary in his will, please email over your bank account number and routing info, or that Nigeria's silicon tycoon needs to transfer a billion dollars to a company in the United States but due to some extremely complicated circumstances related to a jacked up political climate, they need to park the funds in the bank account of someone who is trustworthy and you came highly recommended, and they'll leave you 1% of the money as a fee for your troubles (that comes out to ten million bucks), please email us your bank account number, routing info, a photocopy of your driver license and passport, etc., etc., etc., well, all I can say is that if you actually believe any of this shit, you need to be educated. Read about the so-called 419 Scam among others. Yes, you'd have to be "greedy" to fall for such a scam. Should you be jailed? No. You're still the victim of a crime.

Some scams sound more realistic than the ones above. For example, I once received an email bearing a friend's email address as the "From:" address and claiming that he had lost his passport and/or wallet while on vacation in Africa, and due to complications with the local authorities, he needed to borrow $1000 to pay some fine and get out of jail (money which he would supposedly pay back upon returning home). I called my friend on the phone and it turned out that he was safe and sound here at home, not in Africa. Someone had jacked his email password or otherwise hacked into his email account. Apparently, everyone in his address book received such an email. This is the type of scam that even discerning people could fall for. You have to be really, really, really careful not to fall for some of this stuff.

they arent victims, they're conspirators

[CdBee]

The fact still stands that any simple moral analysis of the state of the 'victims' showed that they conspired to defraud either a sovereign state or certain inhabitants of one - and lost out as a result.

Honesty in these cases would have saved them their losses

Jogging ain't illegal, wire-fraud is

[SmallFurryCreature]

This is the nigerian scam we are talking about, the grand-daddy of them all AND the scam would involve the "victim" commiting fraud. This is illegal.

Let me try this on you.

Say a drug dealer sell you 1 kg of cocaine. Are you then a criminal and deserve to go to jail?

Now say that drug dealer is a scammer and sells you a bag of baking powder instead. You however think it is cocaine, would you go to jail for this?

Probably not, because it is NOT a crime to buy baking powder for an insane price. Morally? Maybe, after all, you thought you were dealing in drugs.

But with the nigerian scam you tend to actually have to attempt to commit a crime, fraud to get it all going.

Do you think people who buy "cheap" goods that are obviously stolen should be done for receiving?

The nigerian guy is just upset that this scam is giving his country a bad rep when the victims are hardly victims but instead people who in their greed were ready to defraud the nigerian goverment. Let us not forget what the scam is, these "victims" were ready to steal millions from a 3rd world nation.

Not everyone who falls for a scam deserves sympathy.

That's smart... Not !!!

[mariuszbi]

Newsflash... Greedy man enters Nigerian scam, looses money. If he thinks he will be charged with something leading to imprisonment, he will _never_ go to the Police reporting the scam. No crime here move along! Guess the scammers will be happy!

You can't cure stupid...

[RaigetheFury]

but you CAN give it a direction. I've said this a thousand times. There will always be people stupid/desperate/greedy enough to do something like this. Hell, two good friends of mine who I always thought were very intelligent fell victim to an Amway like scam. (Same company different name).

When I showed them all of the websites talking about the scam they realized what a big mistake was. At least they only lost $400. Most people who fall for this lose their life savings.

My mother is internet stupid. She's not a dumb person this is just alien to her. I showed her the power of google to answer her questions and now she uses it all the time to research businesses that she wants to work with. In fact, I think google helped her become Internet savvy.

I truly believe that people who fall for scams like this should be forced to serve time. Give them solid time to think about their actions and how society should be forced to help the Darwin award winners of today.

Re:I Will Be Rich in a Few Weeks

[Daimanta]

That's ok. With the millions that he will make, he could easily afford some top notch golfing lessons.

Wonderful wind ups

[JerryQ]

go to http://www.sweetchillisauce.com/ this guy winds up the scammers all the way in, hilarious stuff. If more people did this, now that would slow the scammers! Jerry

Matter of fact, I got it now:

[toby]

VB is truly shit - I mean piss. You're better off with a Coopers for sure.

Taking Some Comfort...

[flyneye]

Well,I guess it's a strange sense of relief to realize that gov't. officials everywhere are microcephalic retards and it's not just limited to
the U.S. Republicrats. It's also interesting to note that from my only information about Nigerians(the scammers,the diplomat,warnings from health officials,news of muslim activities,etc.)that Nigeria is one big Darwin Award just waiting to happen.I would hope that isn't really so,but it re-enforces the idea that immigration control is a very good thing.