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Quebec Govt Sued For Ignoring Free Software

Mathieu Lutfy writes "The CBC is reporting that 'Quebec's open-source software association is suing the provincial government, saying it is giving preferential treatment to Microsoft Corp. by buying the company's products rather than using free alternatives. ... Government buyers are using an exception in provincial law that allows them to buy directly from a proprietary vendor when there are no options available, but Facil said that loophole is being abused and goes against other legal requirements to buy locally.' The group also has a press release in English."

18 of 388 comments (clear)

  1. Don't waste my money! by rossz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, I'm not Canadian, but this applies to everyone when their local government is pissing away money for no good reason.

    It's one thing for a business to choose the more expensive option, the people making the choices must eventually answer to their stockholders. Well, as a voter, I'm a stockholder in my country. Wasting truckloads of money for no good reason means I'm going to vote your ass off the board of directors.

    Most of the time, alternatives such as Openoffice.org are more than adequate for the job (and usually a better choice). Sometimes there are special needs which will allow for an exception, e.g. a large investment in Excel macros that are essential and very expensive to convert.

    Local schools seem to be the worse offenders. They constantly bitch and moan about lack of funds, then piss away a pile of cash on a site license for Microsoft Office so they can teach their word processing course. Openoffice.org (and a few others) are perfect for the job. They are free and the cover everything necessary to learn word processing - which should be covering typing skills and how to lay out a well designed document - not how to use a specific product.

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    1. Re:Don't waste my money! by rohan972 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From TFA: "A strategic Free Software utilization in public administration could create thousands of jobs as well as a significant decrease in software licensing costs. However, Quebec's public administration refuses to even consider and evaluate these options."

      If it is true they haven't even evaluated the other options the complaint is valid.

    2. Re:Don't waste my money! by Rakishi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      School's get absurd discounts on software I believe and MS software does connect well together. For example open office updates would need to be controlled separately from MS updates (which are possibly centrally managed).

      In my personal opinion it's also a lot harder to fuck up a windows network setup and windows networking is a lot more intuitive (ie: you need less knowledge to passably manage it). I've had to recently deal with a school's linux network and I feel like gouging out both my eyes with a spoon. The rats nest of possible programs, setting, distros, incompatible utilities (ie: this works with X, Y and Z but not your version of Z) and so that is possible of linux alone makes me want to gouge out one eye.

    3. Re:Don't waste my money! by erikdalen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, IMO amateurs shouldn't be sysadmins.

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      Erik Dalén
    4. Re:Don't waste my money! by Bert64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Any third party app installed on windows needs to be updated seperately... A linux distro on the other hand will typically supply all the apps you're going to require and update them al centrally.

      As for all the myriad of possible distros, you just standardise on a single distro across the board and use the apps supported by the distributor.
      The problem of incompatible versions happens on windows too, and is often worse, even microsoft apps can have incompatibilities with each other and as soon as you throw third party apps into the mix the problem gets much worse, but the apps supported as part of a linux distro will typically be tested fairly well together. Also since the linux apps are far more likely to use documented formats, the chance of third party apps working with them is higher too.

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    5. Re:Don't waste my money! by minsk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, many professionals shouldn't be sysadmins either.

      One side of the coin is that folks with honest training and experience can sift through a wide range of possible technologies, then find and properly maintain the best one for the situation. The other is that the amateurs have a motivation for easy, so seem less likely to dig themselves incredible, embarrassing, money-sucking pits...

      And this is government. If you're not cynical about the kind of professionals they hire, you're not paying attention :)

    6. Re:Don't waste my money! by minsk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In my reading, the complaint talks about opening up bidding so that local companies can offer solutions. Maybe those would be F/OSS, maybe they would be Microsoft, more likely they would be a mixture. Really doubt anyone thought opening bidding would create openings at the _government_ office... at the local VARs seems a more likely possibility.

    7. Re:Don't waste my money! by supernova_hq · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) used for other government programs
      2) used for training
      3) used for local support
      4) used for enhancing the software for new features
      5) used for lining the wallets of local
      entrepreneurs.
      6) used to buy textbooks, etc.

      How the hell did you miss that one?!?

    8. Re:Don't waste my money! by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If a government body wants to save costs, saying "it will create thousands of jobs" isn't exactly a good thing. Amazingly enough when people get jobs, they expect to be paid.

      In this case, I think the meaning is "create thousands of jobs IN CANADA, as opposed to Seattle. Even if the expenditure is similar, governments should prefer to spend their money on their own constituents (who will also pay tax and return a good proportion).

    9. Re:Don't waste my money! by Mista2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is also looking a t a school network form the wrong end. MS want you to use fat heavy clients filled with their software, fomr the OS , browser, plugins, silverlight, Outlook and the rest of Office etc. A School network might be better served by a light thin client, talking to more powerful centrally managed servers. You don't need to map drives and attach to print servers from every client, just the servers. Our campus has 100 desktops, sitting idle most of the time. 20% might be in use at any one time, and then the biggest CPU user seems to be the AntiVirus client when they boot up and have to scan every file 8). To do Citrix with this number of clients costs hundres of thousands of dollars. You can get 80% of the citrix functionality with X based terminals at a fraction of the cost. If you still wanted to go proprietary, I love Suns Sunray terminals and Sun Global Desktop, and their smartcard logins. MS does not have to feature here unless ther is some productivity software you need on windows, and then you could use just a few windows terminal servers for this. Or virtual dekstops etc. - you name it, it does not have to be a fat Windows client on every desk.

    10. Re:Don't waste my money! by plasmacutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...This keeps the money in the local economy, which is good for the government since they then get a cut of it back when the workers are paid, another cut when they spend it, and so on.

      You realize of course that this statement can be applied almost universally to undermine the value of any kind of trade. For example, wouldn't it be better if my town harvested its own trees for building the new police station rather than importing lumber from some far away place like Canada? After all, it keeps the jobs and the money local. No, the reason trade is beneficial is it fosters competition, and it allows for specialization, which in turn drives efficiency. Software is no different from any other industry in this regard. Just because it's *possible* for local people to write/modify office software doesn't mean it's a wise course of action. In fact, I shudder to think about every local government hiring/contracting with local software engineers to add this-that-or-the-other feature to a fork of Open Office. The last thing I would want is my local government getting into software development. They struggle to fill potholes for goodness sake.

      what a crock!

      First off, you don't get much more efficient than ready-made software that's free out of the box, and which-- on this scale where the govt is spending 25 million on MS licenses-- provides a cheaper and more convenient means of implementing any missing or needed features.

      A software contract to "tweak" an oss project that comes close would be a one-time fixed expenditure for less money than they spend annually, and maintaining a core team to "maintain" the resulting code would entail minimal cost, assuming the community doesn't pick that up after.

      Finally, there's the fundamental assumption at the general level here which is fully out of place. Trade promotes efficiency and specialization in an ideal environment.

        In the real world(tm), what free trade does is destroy the middle class of developed nations which have human, labor, and consumer rights laws by severely diminishing the capacity for labor to organize and compelling governments to "compete" for the attention of multinationals.

      In the long term it has other deleterious effects, creating a fundamentally unequal playing field in which new startups will never be able to compete on a local level because of economies of scale, save for whichever nation is "lowest" on the wage and labor/human rights totem poles at the time.

      I love all the "starry-eyed" conservatives/libertarians who claim FTA's are beneficial in any long-term sense.

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    11. Re:Don't waste my money! by hellwig · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with your statement is that you assume that there are no local alternatives with the same reliability *COUGH*yeahright*COUGH* as Microsoft Windows and Office. The problem is that the Queec government made the exact same assumption, and apparently didn't even investigate other possibilities. This is anti-competetive, and the point of the lawsuit. When the government needs goods or services, it should open a contract to allow fair competition. Let MS (or a retailer) try to bid a system of 1000 Vista computers with 1000 Office licenses. Maybe a local company can offer a competetive system running Ubuntu and OpenOffice (and provide IT support) for the same cost or less. Maybe MS wins, maybe it doesn't. In this case it just sounds like Quebec went with MS cause they didn't know any better. That's why the public must re-enforce the fact that it is in charge and that the government is utlimately responsible to the people it governs.

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  2. Re:Tech support. by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most large organisations including government provide 90% of their own tech support. Microsoft, in practice, provides none. At least it's like that where I am. The only "support" they provide is helping to ensure all of the machines are licensed properly.

    So if a local government can't figure out that they can take save the $25 million they have spent on licenses by training their IT staff or supporting local business, they really aren't intelligent enough to be working for the government.

    That whole support argument is bullshit, as is the TCO argument that gets bandied about.

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  3. Re:Tech support. by Firehed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bull. Paid tech support for custom/specialized apps is one thing (the company I just left made a very significant percent of their revenue from support and maintenance), but that's just not the case for MS Office. And having paid for MS software in the past, I'll let you know that the only "support" I ever got was from someone named "John" in $randomOutsourcedCountry when I needed to re-activate the damn thing because apparently a system upgrade is a novel thing that nobody had tried before.

    Ironically, those 'support' issues went away when I stopped paying for MS software, and obviously also haven't been an issue since I stopped using their stuff entirely.

    Don't get me wrong - support is a legitimate concern for some software, even some from MS. But when it comes to Office software, that support is coming from the IT guy, not Microsoft.

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  4. Re:Tech support. by clang_jangle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Each license bought allows for tech support from Microsoft.

    Typically very little tech support from MS is included with the license. That's the "beauty" (for MS) of their pricing schemes; it's basically a money pit. First you get hooked on the software, then the support, then the proprietary formats help keep you locked in. It's like quicksand.

    Is there any such tech support from open source developers? Usually not.

    Again, incorrect. There are a several good open source vendors who offer excellent support. But quite often OSS shops find they need very little outside support. I would expect most schools to fall in that category, though I have no personal experience working in that sector.

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  5. $25 million by globaljustin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Each license bought allows for tech support from Microsoft. Is there any such tech support from open source developers? Usually not

    If they went to FOSS, they could take the 25 million they spent on M$ licenses (in 08 alone!) and pay local Quebecois to provide support. In fact, that's their whole grounds for bringing the case to court.

    From TFA: "Quebec's public administration refuses to even consider and evaluate these options...the regulation implies that public markets have to enhance the local economic development as well as the Quebec technologies....From February to June 2008...sales of proprietary software for more than 25 million dollars"

    Sounds like good case to me. My parents actually worked in the kind of local government that would be using this software, and I'm here to tell you, the transition would go fine. The fact is, most of them barely bumble their way through no matter WHAT software they use (on their outdated machines). All they use is a word processor, email, and maybe a spreadsheet and simple database. Just the basics.

    This from TFA actually kinda scared me...scared because I'm worried about how far the US is falling behind other countries when it comes to tech: "In the Netherlands, the public administration, one of the most modern in the world, has decided to forbid the use of proprietary software in the public sector."

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  6. Re:Tech support. by jimicus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't really know. I do know public education contains some of the most laughable IT staffs in existence, though.

    I would take a guess that it's all about the feeling of security. Managers (or whatever government equivalent) are going to feel safer with business solutions rather than open-source alternatives because of support for bugs or other problems. If MS Word screws up, you call Microsoft. If Open Office (using it as an example) screws up, what then? There's no business guarantee that OO will respond in a timely manner to the problem.

    I've worked in a school so I've got a bit of experience here.

    Laughable IT staff or not (and there is a glimmer of truth in that), managers (or whoever has the role of managing IT - often a teacher) does indeed get the warm fuzzies from buying as much as possible from big companies like Microsoft.

    Furthermore, there's another angle. It's fairly common to find that the companies that supply schools (and here I'm talking about primary/secondary level education in the UK) don't tend to supply many businesses and vice versa. The companies that do supply schools will tell you that this is because they specialise in education and can offer better support more appropriate for schools. Many of these companies have been supplying schools for many years and are more-or-less 100% Microsoft shops. Guess what they put in?

    Anyone who's any good at IT and has worked in a school will know that this is complete bullshit and that there are dozens of small consulting companies would love to have a few school contracts and could do a perfectly good job for a lot less. However, in the valley of the blind and all that.... there are plenty of schools that believe they're getting a good deal because they don't have anyone on staff who knows enough to tell them otherwise.

  7. Re:I thought Microsoft was a monopoly? by gujo-odori · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft clearly fits the definition of a monopoly.

    Don't think so?

    Do a little research on Standard Oil, which was broken up in the United States under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Standard Oil was not the only oil company in the United States at that time, nor were they the only one that operated gasoline stations. However, their market dominance was such that they were within the definition of a monopoly.

    There are other OS, mail server, and office suite vendors out there, to be sure. However, Exchange has a 65% market share (probably more in the global 2000), Windows has 90% of the desktop, and probably more than that in business desktops. Microsoft Office has about a 90% market share, too. It has been so successful, in fact, that "Excel" and "Word" have become generic words in the lexicon of many people. I regularly encounter users who think "Excel" is what you call a spreadsheet program. I have NeoOffice on my wife's Mac and and she calls its spreadsheet Excel all the time. This has become very common.

    Yes, Microsoft has a monopoly. You don't need 100% market share to have a monopoly. You just need so much market share that the market is no longer anything like a level playing field for others. The fact that some competitors have been able to survive or even make headway anyway is not testimony against Microsoft being a monopoly or even for a level playing field, but rather testimony to the quality and tenacity of those competitors.

    Granted, Microsoft has jumped the shark, but it's still a powerful monopoly.