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Quebec Govt Sued For Ignoring Free Software

Posted by samzenpus on from the what-about-the-cheap-stuff dept.

Mathieu Lutfy writes "The CBC is reporting that 'Quebec's open-source software association is suing the provincial government, saying it is giving preferential treatment to Microsoft Corp. by buying the company's products rather than using free alternatives. ... Government buyers are using an exception in provincial law that allows them to buy directly from a proprietary vendor when there are no options available, but Facil said that loophole is being abused and goes against other legal requirements to buy locally.' The group also has a press release in English."

16 of 388 comments (clear)

  1. Don't waste my money! by rossz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, I'm not Canadian, but this applies to everyone when their local government is pissing away money for no good reason.

    It's one thing for a business to choose the more expensive option, the people making the choices must eventually answer to their stockholders. Well, as a voter, I'm a stockholder in my country. Wasting truckloads of money for no good reason means I'm going to vote your ass off the board of directors.

    Most of the time, alternatives such as Openoffice.org are more than adequate for the job (and usually a better choice). Sometimes there are special needs which will allow for an exception, e.g. a large investment in Excel macros that are essential and very expensive to convert.

    Local schools seem to be the worse offenders. They constantly bitch and moan about lack of funds, then piss away a pile of cash on a site license for Microsoft Office so they can teach their word processing course. Openoffice.org (and a few others) are perfect for the job. They are free and the cover everything necessary to learn word processing - which should be covering typing skills and how to lay out a well designed document - not how to use a specific product.

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    1. Re:Don't waste my money! by amdpox · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I completely agree - our school has a phenomenal amount of money spent on Microsoft and other proprietary licenses (300+ Windows machines with office and photoshop elements, 5-10 windows servers (eugh), and the monstrosity that is SharePoint to "manage" everything... I haven't seen the bill, but it must cost a fortune. Sure, I can understand needing Windows for now - there are _some_ classes that use software other than web and word processing. But spending money on Office when OO.o does absolutely everything we use it for? Inexcusable.

    2. Re:Don't waste my money! by rohan972 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From TFA: "A strategic Free Software utilization in public administration could create thousands of jobs as well as a significant decrease in software licensing costs. However, Quebec's public administration refuses to even consider and evaluate these options."

      If it is true they haven't even evaluated the other options the complaint is valid.

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    3. Re:Don't waste my money! by jambox · · Score: 5, Informative

      Local schools seem to be the worse offenders. They constantly bitch and moan about lack of funds, then piss away a pile of cash on a site license for Microsoft Office

      I agree most secondary school IT teachers seem to think IT education == Microsoft training. But it's worse than that - in the UK, most schools actually buy all their MS stuff from a reseller such as RM Computers. Which is a giant rip because, for example with servers, they just take Windows 2003 and bolt a load of "admin tools" onto the side. They deliberately make it non-standard and harder to use so they can then charge the schools giant support contracts. It also doesn't help that most school IT techs are completely hopeless.

      I speak from bitter experience, BTW.

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    4. Re:Don't waste my money! by erikdalen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, IMO amateurs shouldn't be sysadmins.

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      Erik Dalén
    5. Re:Don't waste my money! by Bert64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Any third party app installed on windows needs to be updated seperately... A linux distro on the other hand will typically supply all the apps you're going to require and update them al centrally.

      As for all the myriad of possible distros, you just standardise on a single distro across the board and use the apps supported by the distributor.
      The problem of incompatible versions happens on windows too, and is often worse, even microsoft apps can have incompatibilities with each other and as soon as you throw third party apps into the mix the problem gets much worse, but the apps supported as part of a linux distro will typically be tested fairly well together. Also since the linux apps are far more likely to use documented formats, the chance of third party apps working with them is higher too.

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    6. Re:Don't waste my money! by Daengbo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But you can have a single copy of OO.o installed on a file server from which all the clients run the software (ro). In that case, you only need to update the software in one place.

      Naturally, preferences and documents are saved on the client.

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    7. Re:Don't waste my money! by willyhill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      could create thousands of jobs

      I'm a little fuzzy on the details from TFA but... what exactly would these jobs entail? I mean, if some govt. office is running MS Office now and have 100 employees, switching to OpenOffice would create 100 openings more? Or what?

      Sounds to me like an emotional argument rather than something based on fact.

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    8. Re:Don't waste my money! by minsk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, many professionals shouldn't be sysadmins either.

      One side of the coin is that folks with honest training and experience can sift through a wide range of possible technologies, then find and properly maintain the best one for the situation. The other is that the amateurs have a motivation for easy, so seem less likely to dig themselves incredible, embarrassing, money-sucking pits...

      And this is government. If you're not cynical about the kind of professionals they hire, you're not paying attention :)

    9. Re:Don't waste my money! by minsk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In my reading, the complaint talks about opening up bidding so that local companies can offer solutions. Maybe those would be F/OSS, maybe they would be Microsoft, more likely they would be a mixture. Really doubt anyone thought opening bidding would create openings at the _government_ office... at the local VARs seems a more likely possibility.

    10. Re:Don't waste my money! by wrook · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Right now money is being spent on licenses. This money goes out of the province (indeed out of the country) to a company that sells the software. The money is then either reinvested into building the next upgrade, a new products, used for corporate overhead or designated as "profit".

      The TFA notes that the amount of money spent on software in the 6 months from February to June was 25 million dollars.

      If free software could be used to replace the proprietary software, then the money could be:

      1) used for other government programs
      2) used for training
      3) used for local support
      4) used for enhancing the software for new features
      5) used for lining the wallets of local entrepreneurs.

      But in these cases the money stays local. Since the government almost always spends all the money that it has, in all cases except for #5 the result is that the money ends up as salaries for other employees. And since this is money over and above money that they are already spending on salaries, it means new jobs.

      If we work out the numbers, let's say we give the greedy entrepreneurs a million dollars. Then let's say that the other uses result in something close to 20% for equipment and capital costs.
      This leaves about 20 million dollars. At a loaded
      labour rate of 100,000 dollars a years (which is generous given that we've already taken out 4 million for equipment and capital costs), this gives us 200 new jobs.

      So you are right, "thousands" of new jobs is probably not realistic. But if they can really reduce the outgo of software licensing money to foreign companies, it is not an exaggeration to say that hundreds of jobs would be the result.

    11. Re:Don't waste my money! by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Finally, there's the fundamental assumption at the general level here which is fully out of place. Trade promotes efficiency and specialization in an ideal environment.

      You were doing so well until your tangent. Here's the real final flaw in his argument:

      Using your own natural resources when it's much cheaper to buy similar quality commodities from elsewhere is dumb. With software, there's no such inherent geographical bias. I'm unaware of any fundamental reason why a programmer in Quebec is less intelligent or capable than a programmer in Redmond, so I see no reason for Quebec to export their money to Redmond to get an item they could otherwise get locally.

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  2. En franÃais by millette · · Score: 5, Informative

    Plus d'info en francais et sur le site de l'association FACIL, pour l'appropriation collective de l'informatique libre.

  3. Re:Tech support. by Max+Littlemore · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most large organisations including government provide 90% of their own tech support. Microsoft, in practice, provides none. At least it's like that where I am. The only "support" they provide is helping to ensure all of the machines are licensed properly.

    So if a local government can't figure out that they can take save the $25 million they have spent on licenses by training their IT staff or supporting local business, they really aren't intelligent enough to be working for the government.

    That whole support argument is bullshit, as is the TCO argument that gets bandied about.

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  4. Re:Tech support. by Firehed · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That's the "beauty" (for MS) of their pricing schemes; it's basically a money pit.

    Actually, it's really just a way for them to legally cook their books. While they never provide support* on any of their consumer products, they're still allowed to have a ton of unearned revenue since they only recognize 1/12th of the purchase price each month, or however long you're supported for. Assuming it's one year and a copy of Windows is $300 (I was at Staples today, and apparently it is at least for some version of XP), that means that after a month, they've got $25 of earned revenue and $275 of unearned revenue on the books. Basically, it fucks with the numbers and makes them look richer than they really are.

    Of course this isn't at all specific to Microsoft - most companies that provide some sort of support contract do the same (Best Buy extended warranties? Oh yeah). I'd suggest they abuse it a bit more than most, but what do you expect?

    *you know what I mean here - I'm sure there's the odd instance of it happening, but by and large the only time you get them on the phone is for an activation problem.

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  5. News report on Radio-Canada Thursday 28th at 22h by Mathieu+Lu · · Score: 5, Informative

    The issue is getting great coverage and will be having a television news report today, Thursday 28th of august, on the 22h news of Radio-Canada (francophone equivalent of the CBC). It will also be aired on RDI (the 24h news channel of Radio-Canada) at 21h.

    From what I've been told, there will be reactions from other board members of the association, our lawyer, university professors and last but not least, the Quebec government.

    If you're in the area, don't miss out the press conference on Friday the 29th of August, 10h30, 7275, Saint-Urbain, Montreal, suite 201.

    Finally, the best way to support Facil is of course by spreading the news, but also to become a member or to donate to the association (sorry if the website is not well translated, we are working on it). We are getting into a lengthly legal battle which will hopefully send a clear message to other governments. This is only the start.

    Thanks for all the great comments!

    Mathieu