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"Google Satellite" To Be Launched This Week

Lord Satri writes "Well, almost. Google signed an exclusivity deal with GeoEye regarding GeoEye-1, the most advanced high-resolution, civil, remote-sensing satellite to date. This must be annoying for other high-resolution, remote-sensing data users since Google already has an exclusivity deal in place with DigitalGlobe, the other major civil satellite imagery provider. From the CNet article: 'Under the deal, Google is the exclusive online mapping site that may use the imagery... in its Google Maps and Google Earth product. And as a little icing on the cake, Google's logo is on the side of the rocket set to launch the 4,300-pound satellite in six days from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. Terms of the deal weren't disclosed. GeoEye-1 will orbit 423 miles above Earth, but it will be able to gather imagery with details the size of 41 centimeters... Google, though, is permitted to use data only with a resolution of 50 cm because of the terms of GeoEye's license with the US government.'"

51 of 280 comments (clear)

  1. The jury's still out by plover · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is a Google satellite evil or not evil? Discuss.

    --
    John
    1. Re:The jury's still out by The_Wilschon · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exclusivity agreements like this one are definitely quite nastily anti-competitive, which I would say is evil.

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      wait... not that kind of sig.
    2. Re:The jury's still out by maxume · · Score: 4, Funny

      Google bought outer space?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:The jury's still out by Plaid+Phantom · · Score: 5, Funny

      Is there a death ray? It's the only way to be sure.

      --
      All comments are properties and trademarks of the voices in my head. Not like I'm gonna claim them.
    4. Re:The jury's still out by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 5, Funny

      Is a Google satellite evil or not evil? Discuss.

      Do you mean.... Dr. Evil??



      Johnson: [Noticing Dr. Evil's spaceship on radar] Colonel, you better have a look at this radar.
      Colonel: What is it, son?
      Johnson: I don't know, sir, but it looks like a giant--
      Jet Pilot: Dick.
      Dick: Yeah?
      Jet Pilot: Take a look out of starboard.
      Dick: Oh my God, it looks like a huge--
      Bird-Watching Woman: Pecker.
      Bird-Watching Man: [raising binoculars] Ooh, Where?
      Bird-Watching Woman: Wait, that's not a woodpecker, it looks like someone's--
      Army Sergeant: Privates! We have reports of an unidentified flying object. It has a long, smooth shaft, complete with--
      Baseball Umpire: Two balls.
      [looking up from game]
      Baseball Umpire: What is that. It looks just like an enormous--
      Chinese Teacher: Wang, pay attention!
      Wang: I was distracted by that giant flying--
      Musician: Willie.
      Willie Nelson: Yeah?
      Musician: What's that?
      Willie Nelson: [squints] Well, that looks like a giant--
      Colonel: Johnson?!
      Johnson: Yes, sir?
      Colonel: Get on the horn to British Intelligence and let them know about this.

    5. Re:The jury's still out by kestasjk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It all comes down to Google's stated goal: To index and make available all the worlds information.

      The less friendly side of their stated goal, which they don't state as explicitly, is that all the worlds information should be available only through them

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      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    6. Re:The jury's still out by Gavagai80 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So you think a company should invest huge wads of money in a satellite to give the data away and thus derive no better market position than without it? Good luck with that.

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      This space intentionally left blank
    7. Re:The jury's still out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Contrariwise, there would be anti-competitive elements to an open agreement as well. There would be basically no opportunity for satellite competition, due to massive barrier to entry and smart pricing schemes by GeoEye. An exclusivity deal means lower resolution satellite data still has buyers, and google competitors could support the launching of another satellite.

      Honestly, it is hard to trade things like this without exclusivity. You wouldn't want to buy rights to have Michael Phelps on your cereal if he also said he would appear on every other brand of cereal for whatever price they were offering. It would be worth basically nothing to everyone, whereas, with exclusivity, it is at least worth something to someone. Likewise, there is no point in google or anyone else throwing billions at GeoEye to become the highest resolution online map service if GeoEye then licenses the same data to everyone. It may be that the value of the data in such a scenario is not even enough to finance the satellite launch, in which case, the possibility of exclusivity is definitely a beneficent aspect of the market--giving consumers a product that would simply not exist without it.

      Anyway, one really must debate the merit of anti-competitive policies concerning something google is giving away for free. It's not as though the market is going to drive down the price of "free."

    8. Re:The jury's still out by istartedi · · Score: 3, Funny

      You hack into the satellite and change the coordinates. I'll break into Page's and Brin's houses and set up the giant popcorn tin.

      (That's a Real Genius reference for those who were out of geek culture class that day)

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    9. Re:The jury's still out by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 4, Informative

      You spent way, WAY too much time HTMLizing your post. :'(

      No, I have a computer from the 'future' First you search google, then you "View source", copy, and paste.

  2. Precisions on the summary by Lord+Satri · · Score: 4, Informative

    Some precisions on my summary. DigitalGlobe is obviously not the only other remote sensing data provider, but it's GeoEye main competitor in civil high-resolution multispectral remote sensing. GeoEye is itself the merging of two other previous major players on the same playing field, OrbImage and Space Imaging.

    As for my claim of an agreement between DigitalGlobe and Google, see this two years old entry. The original archive for the DG message is here (the link on /geo does not work anymore).

    One of the obvious questions that comes to mind is to which extent these exclusivity deals have negative impacts on other remote sensing imagery customers, small or big.

    Another question is; does Google really needs such a deal to provide the best webmapping and virtual globes-related tools?

    1. Re:Precisions on the summary by lgw · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exclusivity doesn't make Google's mapping products any better, it just makes their competitors' products worse. Sounds anti-competitive and "evil" to me.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Precisions on the summary by Arthur+B. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe the satellite company wouldn't afford a satellite if it didn't sell exclusive rights to the pictures.

      I'm not saying the whole thing isn't evil, it's just a little more complicated than you make it appear.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    3. Re:Precisions on the summary by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I keep hoping that Google will start releaseing some of their data into the public domain/GPL/Creative Commons.
      That Google spy van must be gathering data like speed limits, which streets are one way. Maybe even which are paved and not.
      One place missing GPL application is a really good navigation system.

      --
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    4. Re:Precisions on the summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Excuse me but competition is defined as somebody winning and somebody losing. Google is winning and doesn't appear to be cheating, how can that be anti-competitive? I wish you people would figure out that a monopoly isn't evil, it is the goal of all companies. Illegally suppressing your rivals is anti-competitive, cornering the market is not.

    5. Re:Precisions on the summary by rockmuelle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My biggest concern as a consumer of GIS data has always been access to the high-quality, tax-payer funded data (which is usually aerial, not satellite). Exclusivity deals are fine as long as any data gathered from the instruments for tax-payer funded programs remains accessible without restrictions.

      I'm not sure how deals such as Google's will affect this, but as the parent pointed out, there are already many sources of high-quality data from government sources.

      If there is something to fear from Google Maps/Earth, it's the spatial imagery mono-culture developing around consumer and media GIS applications. Google's approach is by no means the best approach for all geospatial data, it just happens to work well for navigating large data sets. But, as we've learned from Microsoft, if enough people are using a solution, the level of technology present in dominant solution becomes the "state-of-the-art" even if it isn't.

      -Chris

    6. Re:Precisions on the summary by hellwig · · Score: 4, Informative

      Considering it costs millions and millions of dollars to develop and launch an orbital satellite, there is no way GeoEye could make money by only exclusively licensing the use of its imagery to Google. I am guessing that Google fronted much/most of the development and launch costs for the satellite. Basically I would assume that Google owns the satellite and GeoEye is simply managing the logistics of orbiting, photgraphing, and maintenance.

      If Google did front most of the costs, then it's not anti-competative to ask GeoEye to agree to only allow Google use of the photos. If GeoEye fronted all of the costs themselves, then how do they plan to make money off a multi-million dollar investement by simply licensing use of the photographs to a single entity?

      Satellites are not vital infrastructure like telephone lines. As such, I doubt there is any legal standing to say what GeoEye can and can't do with their own satellite (especially if Google DID provide some initial funding).

      Oh, I just RTFA, and apparently Google is the only "online mapping company" allowed to use the photographs. I guess Google just paid a lot for those rights. Kinda like how Pepsi is the official soft drink of the International League of Woman Voters (though no one considers this to be legally anti-competative to Coke or Royal Crown Cola).

      --
      Eggs
      Milk
      Bread
      Cat Litter
      Soda
      ...
    7. Re:Precisions on the summary by witherstaff · · Score: 3, Informative

      NPR Science friday just had a discussion with GeoEye. They will also snap a photo of anyplace you ask them to for a cost. They go into some details of the process and it was a neat little interview. Things like it's in a polar orbit, whipping around the north to south pole every 90 minutes.

  3. why the by ionix5891 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    50cm restriction? do they have something to hide??

    1. Re:why the by loshwomp · · Score: 5, Funny

      50cm restriction? do they have something to hide??

      Everyone knows WMDs are only 49cm across.

    2. Re:why the by schnikies79 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do you really think that the difference between 41cm and 50cm, when it comes to satellite imagery, is going to hide that much?

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      Gone!
    3. Re:why the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      50cm restriction? do they have something to hide??

      Everyone knows WMDs are only 49cm across.

      I know a few gentlemen in my favorite streaming video web sites who should be worried that google can take pictures of 19 inch monster appendages :D

    4. Re:why the by lgw · · Score: 4, Informative

      50cm restriction? do they have something to hide??

      For once the government is protecting our pivacy (a side effect of portecting its own, no doubt). 50cm resolution hides the identity and activity of individuals, which is for the best.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:why the by Tibor+the+Hun · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hmm, I'd be inclined to bet that it will hide precisely 9cm!

      --
      If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
    6. Re:why the by ksd1337 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      These are only US government restrictions. What about other countries?

    7. Re:why the by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't know why you're marked troll. You shouldn't be.

      Anyway, above a certain threshold, it starts to get a military-grade function, and therefore it's not something they want the general public to have. The general public includes America's Enemies.

      It's the same reason why commercial GPS shuts down above 60,000 feet or faster than [can't remember the units].

      I'm sure an American will point out that their 2nd Amendment grant the citizens rights to GPS-equipped military hardware.

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      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    8. Re:why the by Arthur+B. · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I can think of a few loopholes around this regulation.

      What about taking many low resolution images of the same area and combine them later using super resolution?

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      \u262D = \u5350
    9. Re:why the by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But if you're limited to 50cm, that means that you're not going to be able to accurately identify a number of things. You'd be able to pick out a book on a table, but you'd not know what it was. You might be able to tell that that lady is sunbathing in the nude, but not actually see anything.

      50cm is like half a meter. Most people are under 2 meters tall, and between 50cm and 100cm wide. So if you had a resolution of 50cm, you wouldn't see a 'lady sunbathing in the nude' you'd see 1x4 to 2x4 block of colored pixels. Try to draw a 'woman sunbathing in the nude' using 8 pixels. Now using 4-8 pixels draw each of 'borat wearing a g-string', a pig, a camel, a litter of cocker spaniels, a beige hammock, and a cardboard box and explain how to tell them apart.

      For comparison the 'mario' in the original Nintendo "Super Mario Brothers" was around 400 pixels. And they had to dedicate the entire top 3rd to his head just so that he'd have a discernable eye, nose, and moustache.

    10. Re:why the by afabbro · · Score: 4, Funny

      50cm is like half a meter.

      It's precisely half a meter.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    11. Re:why the by russotto · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's the same reason why commercial GPS shuts down above 60,000 feet or faster than [can't remember the units].

      Although, oddly enough, the law is more permissive than that; the GPS can work above 60,000 feet or faster than that velocity, but not both at the same time.

      Not that there aren't firmware hacks to get around that, at least for older hardware.

    12. Re:why the by piltdownman84 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most people are under 2 meters tall, and between 50cm and 100cm wide..

      100cm Wide? I know a third of Americans are Obese, but 100 cm is massive. I'm about average and only 45 cm wide

    13. Re:why the by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's fairly easy to get around the limitations you pointed out if you're familiar with how GPS operates and have a solid electronics/programming background. The limitation stops only the least motivated.

  4. Kewl by eclectro · · Score: 3, Funny

    Shiny new browser that can do everything and fancy new satellite. The only thing missing is my new RFID implant.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:Kewl by should_be_linear · · Score: 3, Funny

      The only thing missing is my new RFID implant.

      I have mine already! It is still beta and therefore limited availability for pre-registered users.

      --
      839*929
  5. 50cm? That barrier is gonna fall soon by davidwr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Within 1-2 years other countries will have civilian spy satellites that break 50cm, putting American companies at a disadvantage.

    The USA will have 3 choices:
    Shoot the birds down, literally.
    Shoot the birds down, politically - bully the other countries into imposing similar limits.
    Lower or eliminate the artificial limit.

    Anyone remember when encryption software was considered a munition? Apple and other companies had to go through hoops to export it, putting them at a distinct disadvantage over non-American companies.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  6. This was predicted three years ago by AnswerIs42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Though at the time.. it was just a April Fools joke..

  7. Courtesy of Google SatWords by rbarreira · · Score: 5, Funny

    Guy comes out of bar holding a girl's hand while walking home. Suddenly, a targeted ad for condoms is projected on the ground in front of them.

    --

    The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  8. Re:resolution for satellite like digital cams? by rcw-home · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm not really sure how this breaks down in terms of what I can actually SEE. Since current imagery lets us sorta see people

    It means a car shows up as 4 pixels by 12 pixels. The top of your head is part of a single pixel along with a square foot of sidewalk.

    Google already has higher-res data for populated areas of several countries from aircraft reconnaisance. The satellites are for everything else.

    Unfortunately, there is a physical limit to how good an image taken from 400 miles away can be.

  9. 50cm? How about 10? by camperdave · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My understanding is that at 50cm resolution, an object that is 50cm across would appear as a single pixel on the image. So, a manhole cover in the street might show up as a single pixel at that resolution. A car's hood might be four pixels, etc. Objects that are smaller than 50cm should not be detectible, especially if they are close to the same color as the background. However, if you zoom in on almost any American city to maximum resolution on google maps's satellite view, you will clearly see traffic lines. Traffic lines are roughly 10cm wide. Often these resolve to two pixels.

    So, either my understanding of satellite photo resolution is wrong, or Google can already go to 10cm, and possibly even 5cm resolution.

    --
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    1. Re:50cm? How about 10? by jcam2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Google uses aerial photography for the views of major cities - so those 10cm resolution images are not from satellite.

    2. Re:50cm? How about 10? by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Funny

      They use aerial photogr.... wait a minute, *FOUR* other people have said this already.

      Don't you wish that everyone would read the whole freakin' thread before replying.

      Jesus.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
  10. A primer on satellite resolution by Cliff+Stoll · · Score: 4, Informative

    Defining optical resolution from space is a bit tricky, as several generations of optical engineers have discovered.

    The main criterion is the telescope's point spread function - this is roughly the angular diameter that a pinpoint star appears to be, as seen through the telescope. We want the smallest point spread function, and it should map onto about one to three sensor pixels. (arguments go here about over/undersampling).

    The Fourier Transform of the point spread function is the Optical Transfer Function, which is a graph of the spatial frequencies response of the telescope. It's analogous to a hifi's frequency response ... it's an engineering challenge to prevent high frequencies from getting rolled off.

    The main limit for high resolution is the diameter of the primary mirror (All mirrors and optical elements, no matter how perfect, have diffraction effects which spread out the light and reduce resolution. The bigger the entrance pupil, the greater the resolution) For the GeoEye, orbiting at 684Km and a resolution of 0.4m, I roughly calculate the primary mirror is somewhere around a half-meter diameter or so, depending on the wavelength of light it's optimized for.

    Other things limit resolution - scattering of light in clear air (Rayleigh scattering) screws up the image, especially in the blue. Dust, haze, clouds and urban pollution are a bother, but not as much as you might think. Naturally, there's lots of image processing software ... quite compute intensive.

    A typical human, seen from above and not casting a shadow, is about 20 to 60 cm across. So someone walking down the street should appear on a few (1 to 5) pixels. Not enough to recognize someone, especially since you're looking down on 'em.

    Generally, images taken from aircraft have better resolution (they're closer, and there's less Rayleigh scattering). Perhaps airlines will attach automated, downward looking hires cameras to their daily flights.

  11. Re:resolution for satellite like digital cams? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    the diffraction effect is not the only issue; but its worked-around.

    recently, there were 'multiple exposure' (roughly) algorithms being used to 'look thru' the heat, pollution and general waviness of the sky, in plotting out celestial objects.

    and even *with* diffraction, you can overcome it with sharpening. I often shoot my photos 'with too high an f-stop' according to common theory; but my post-processing overcomes the diffraction issues in practice; and I get the nice large depth-of-field that I was after with quite good sharpness, as well.

    if you get multiple shots, exposures or angles of a subject, you can 'subtract out' quite a lot of noise and distortion. single shots can't do this but multiple ('high dyn range' or HDR) shooting can.

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  12. Re:Competition by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is the american way of doing business. Competition exists to ensure that customers get the best possible price. That's why we tolerate it. That's why we encourage it. When a company talks about putting up "barriers to entry" and signs exclusive deals with all the suppliers, we don't get the benefits of competition anymore.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
  13. Re:Which Orbit? by WUNHJazz · · Score: 3, Informative

    Given the orbital height of 423 miles above the surface, this satellite will have a near-polar sun-synchronous orbit similar to other land imaging satellites (the Landsats, IKONOS, etc).

  14. Re:Gee I should have had a.. by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 4, Funny

    vegetables, oh teh horror! ;)

  15. Re:Which Orbit? by cyclone96 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The interesting thing is that in order to get such an orbit, it has to pass over other countries. Will Google take footage of other countries? If so, will it use that footage? That would probably require some intense international negotiations.

    Actually, it will not. I'm not sure if it's codified anywhere in international law or just by historical precedent, but a nation's airspace does not extend into space. A satellite can legally take photos of anything it can see, and there's little a country can do about it except hide things under cover or shoot it down (which likely would be considered an act of war).

    Some countries (like the US) can exert control in limited ways by restricting operations if the imaging company does business in the country, but that's it.

    Google has quite detailed satellite photos of Pyongyang, North Korea - I'm sure they didn't really agree to that.

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  16. Re:Gee I should have had a.. by Gerzel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of all the evil corps predicted to rise in the future by all the cyberpunk and sci-fi writers. I'll bet you not one of them was named "Google"

  17. Re:Good news by BraksDad · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought we already established that WMD are only 49cm across. You don't need to hide it, just paint it beige and it will look like a nude woman sunbathing... or a litter of spaniels. What is the differnce between the 3?

    --
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  18. Re:Gee I should have had a.. by aplusjimages · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How weird will that be, if 50 years from now people associate the word Google, like they associate the word Nazi?

    Then we can all say "back in my day Google was just a search engine, not a military force that had every bit of information on each human on earth. All hail Page Brin."

    --
    Can I bum a sig?
  19. A Sun-Synchronous Oribit by Cliff+Stoll · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most satellites for earth observation use sun-synchronous orbits. These orbits let the satellite's cameras take pictures ob objects at the same solar time. This means that it will pass overhead at the same local time every day ... so the images will have the same shadow characteristics.

    You accomplish this by making the orbit precess exactly 360 degrees per solar year.

    These orbits are typically nearly circular, but needn't be; you can put a spy satellite into a sun-synchronous elliptical orbit, so it'll swoops down and photograph near perigee, then waste a lot of time around apogee.

    Since this orbit is around 684 Km, it can be shown that it must be pretty close to circular, has an orbital period of around 100 minutes, and its inclination is probably about 96 to 100 degrees (meaning that the satellite is slightly retrograde - 90 degrees inclination is polar, zero degrees is equatorial) In turn, this means that pretty much all of earth will be seen by the satellite, except for 8 degree circles around the poles.

    A 96 minute period means that each successive orbit will look down on a place 15 degrees west ... one time zone to the west.

    Geosynchronous orbits are pretty useless for this type of work, since they're so far away (you need really big telescopes to get much resolution). Also, you'd only see one hemisphere, and half the year it'd be nighttime over the areas you want to see.