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Gamers Are Fitter (and Sadder) Than You Think

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the crying-on-a-treadmill dept.

missb writes "According to NewScientist.com, online gamers are no 'couch potatoes'. US researchers quizzed players of the role-playing game EverQuest II, and found adult gamers to be in better physical condition than the average American. The downside, however, was the gamers reported more cases of depression and substance abuse than their compatriots."

62 of 341 comments (clear)

  1. Erm... by clang_jangle · · Score: 5, Funny
    FTA:

    Researchers at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, the Palo Alto Research Center, also in California, and the University of Delaware in Newark, quizzed 7000 players of the role-playing game EverQuest II about their physical and mental health. Participants were offered a specially created virtual weapon as an incentive - the "Greatstaff of the Sun Serpent". The researchers then combined the survey responses with statistics about players' online activities and playing habits.

    And we know the results are accurate, because they're working with a demographic famous for honest and forthright self-disclosure.

    IOW: DUH!

    --
    Caveat Utilitor
    1. Re:Erm... by i_liek_turtles · · Score: 5, Funny

      If anything, most of the players' right arms are in better physical condition than the average American's.

    2. Re:Erm... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Hey, answer this questionnaire and get mad 3p1c wepp0nz!"

      "Sure. Multiple choice, excellent. A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A A Now give me my sodding purple."

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:Erm... by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, if by 'better shape' they mean less obese that the avg. American, it is probably due to them being too engrossed by the game to go buy junk food. They're not in better shape, they've just starving a bit more than the average US citizen.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    4. Re:Erm... by garcia · · Score: 4, Informative

      They're not in better shape, they've just starving a bit more than the average US citizen.

      When I considered myself a "gamer" (Q1CTF) I was a Division I athlete attending a state university with ready access to tons of junk food and recreational enhancements that I readily consumed in greater amounts than I could even again. But because I was in college, and working out twice a day 5.5x a week, I was in great shape. I have a feeling that while the age range for those that consider themselves "gamers" is widening, the majority of people are still HS and college aged kids who have a bit more of an active lifestyle than the rest of us that work in some boring office tower all day and then retire home for an evening of various PC or console games.

    5. Re:Erm... by Hatta · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're not kidding. I can't count the meals I've missed because I wanted "just one more turn!" at Civilization.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:Erm... by dwiget001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ii play EQ2, have for years.

      I am also a competitive fencer (olympic style sword-fighting).

      I am in very good shape.

      I also rarely drink (a beer or two maybe every 2 or 3 months)

      About the only substance I could be called upon for abusing would be water (I live in Florida, gotta stay very well hydrated).

      And, gosh darn it, I am very happy.

      Obviously, they didn't survey me.

    7. Re:Erm... by kv9 · · Score: 2, Funny

      The right hand typically just presses the odd button or waggles the mouse.

      oh you bet it waggles!

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
    8. Re:Erm... by Sinbios · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think you understand how statistics work.

      --
      Anyone can "stand up for what they believe", but it takes a very brave individual to change what they believe. - Loundry
    9. Re:Erm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wow, you're rather optimistic aren't you? Everyone's a fatty! All gamers are fat asses!

      Christ.

      Jesus posts on Slashdot?! OMG when did you get back?

    10. Re:Erm... by gad_zuki! · · Score: 5, Informative

      Its not "foolish" its a fact. Perhaps you should google before calling people foolish, eh?

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/040105071229.htm

      http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5576/obesity_and_poverty_the_poorest_of.html

      http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/correlation-between-obesity-and-poverty-health-people-2010-should-increase-attention-those-poverty-14046.html

      http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/469027

      http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/2/0/6/1/p20614_index.html

    11. Re:Erm... by Creepy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmm... if I go by the people I know that play WoW (sorry, I don't know any EQ2 players - Guild Wars yes, Conan yes, but the majority I know play WoW), most I know are in better-than-average physical shape. In fact, I know only two overweight people that play WoW, but I know many more overweight people that do not.

      As for depression, I can see that - I think many adult MMORPG players that stick with it are stretched to the limits by daily stress (whether it be work, kids, schedule, or whatever) and use it as a release, but by doing so, they are sacrificing sleep and that results in more depression. The other problem is the game itself can make you unable to relax, so getting to sleep itself is a problem (thus probably more substance abuse like drinking or smoking pot in order to sleep, which leads to bad sleep).

      I had problems like that both as a musician and a MMORPG player, and in both cases I had to quit drinking (I never did other drugs except smoked cigs/cigars, but I quit that early - food was more important than a bad habit). I feel best if I set a fixed quitting time, which for me is 10PM, and give myself 1/2-1 hour to wind down before sleep (with a 6AM no snooze wake-up). Unfortunately for me, that means having to be away from games entirely for some periods of time - I'm salaried and work to a schedule, so if it's after 10PM when I get home, I don't play games or work on my OSS project - and yes, I tentatively schedule time for both (not to mention "hang out with my wife time," but her need for 10 hours of sleep always gives me some evening time).

    12. Re:Erm... by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Funny
      "I also rarely drink (a beer or two maybe every 2 or 3 months)"

      I feel sorry for those people that don't drink.

      When they get up in the morning, that is the best they're gonna feel ALL DAY.

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Erm... by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 4, Funny

      I have very strong typing muscles now, get regular leg exercise from nervously bouncing it under my desk, and have powerful bladder muscles from holding it in during raids.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    14. Re:Erm... by just_another_sean · · Score: 4, Funny

      If anything, most of the players' right arms are in better physical condition than the average American's.

      I like to use my left actually, just to mix it, um, wait what, games? Um, never mind.

      --
      Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
    15. Re:Erm... by Omestes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a relatively happy and healthy (not athletic, but 6'4"/185lb), and I play MMOs mostly to socialize, not hide. Some of my old friends from high school play who I haven't actually seen in person for 12 years, so its a nice way to get together and hang out, especially when distance and schedules keep us from meeting in person that often. Probably still healthier, since we'd probably be meeting in the local pub.

      If your definition of gaming includes the idea of hiding, then you have an unhealthy relationship with games. I've been playing video games since I was 6, and using the internet since I was eight, these are increasingly just becoming a way of life, much like television and books, to an increasing amount of the population. Is watching 2 hours of TV after work escapism? Is reading a novel? What about a nice solitary hike (not as exercise, but just to blow the stink off)? All of these are somewhat escapist, I suppose, but not necessarily unhealthy when taken in moderation. All of them have about the same value, and the same purpose.

      Though I admit, sometimes I use both the hike and the games as an escape mechanism, not often, but sometimes they make for a good, cheap, vacation from stress. If I still read much fiction, it too would be a good mini-vacation, but sadly I don't think technical manuals and philosophy tomes are very relaxing.

      As in all things, moderation is key, and your relationship with whatever activity. I've seen people be far more self-destructive with exercise than I have with gaming or reading. To be honest, I find sports more unhealthy than gaming most the time, since it is MORE stressful to the participants.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    16. Re:Erm... by Firehed · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's really not just a weight thing. I'm extremely thin (to the point where most people would probably think I'm anorexic) yet I hover somewhere between depressed and horrendously bored 95% of the time. I don't touch MMOs but I've certainly spent my fair share of time and then some playing games, though I'm mostly just writing code these days. It's really a more generic social issue - I've got a 300lb gamer-obsessive friend who's always having a blast, even when there's not a controller in his hands. I'm still trying to figure out his trick.

      Point being it's not just you, and it's certainly not because of being overweight. I had a neighbor who was suicidal and he was quite healthy, physically at least. I'm not going to be the guy that gives out sage advice on the subject because even if I know it would help I won't/can't follow it myself, probably for the same reasons you wouldn't follow it either (an "it wouldn't help" attitude, at a very high level; though it goes much deeper than that)

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    17. Re:Erm... by plague3106 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Life is pretty boring though if you don't go to excess occasionally though.

    18. Re:Erm... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 2, Funny

      Moderation in all things -- including moderation.

    19. Re:Erm... by DinDaddy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well yeah, he probably crushed it with his mussel.

    20. Re:Erm... by kklein · · Score: 2, Interesting

      these are increasingly just becoming a way of life, much like television and books, to an increasing amount of the population. Is watching 2 hours of TV after work escapism? Is reading a novel? What about a nice solitary hike (not as exercise, but just to blow the stink off)?

      Thank you. I am an English teacher (language, not lit.), but even I am sick of people putting these things on a hierarchy of "best" to "worst" (and always putting gaming at the bottom!).

      Reading is escapist. What it has going for it, though, is that it's cheap. A book can give you quite a few hours of entertainment for as little as free, if there's a good library nearby.

      Television is escapist. What it has going for it is that it is popular and gives you something to talk about with other people the next day. I don't particularly like sports, but I always watch big games like the World Cup or the Super Bowl, just so that I can join in conversations the next day at work. Those are always a lot more fun than the watching, IMO.

      Gaming is escapist or highly social. I'll admit, however, that I prefer to play alone. To me, it's the same as reading a book. But EverCrack players do it for the socialization. I love to play online games (BF2 with the Project Reality mod) with people on the PC or the Xbox (Chrome Hounds), especially since everything has VOIP now. That's a social experience.

      Of all the hobbies I've discussed here, only reading is an almost purely solitary act. Finding someone else who is reading or has read what you're reading is a lot harder than someone who saw the game last night, or finding someone on a game server. No one is going to argue about the intricacy of stories told in these media (John Carmack was wrong when he observed that no one asks for basketball to have a story--it's the story that people love about sports)--books win. But the "loner" stigma of video gamers is wholly undeserved--they are the most social of the bunch!

  2. Depression by MrSmith0011000100110 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'd be depressed too if my level 9 elf lost the holy mantle of protection in a battle against a level 15 ranger. I mean come on now....In real life I'd destroy him with my +20 sword.

  3. Truth. by davidangel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    MMORPG is a substance.

  4. Hey, there's a difference between use and abuse by Nursie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not that I do either, but the fact of illegal substance use is not evidence of a problem itself, more an indicator that the person has little regard for this area of law, and may be disconnected from society/not buy into its values. This links up with depression and dissatisfaction.

    1. Re:Hey, there's a difference between use and abuse by b96miata · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's a bias you *always* have to account for in articles about public health, unless they come from the most unbiased clinical sources possible. (and even then, summaries by mass media usually throw the abuse moniker in)

      To a large portion of the media/"public health" professionals, any use of an illegal substance, even moderate and responsible, is "abuse". These are the same people who define 5 drinks in 24 hours as a "binge".

    2. Re:Hey, there's a difference between use and abuse by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a shame, because it affects the conclusion. IMHO it should be -

      Gamers disaffected with society, resulting in depression, supporting evidence consisting of substance use...

      When what we'll get is

      "Gamers depressed! Turn to drugs!" or "Games depress people and are a gateway to drug use!" or "Drug use causes depression and can lead to gaming!"

    3. Re:Hey, there's a difference between use and abuse by flonker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      or "Depressed people more likely to self medicate with drugs and computer games!"

      Correlation is not causation.

  5. New exercise regimen by NoisySplatter · · Score: 5, Funny
    From the article:

    The average gamer also engages in vigorous exercise once or twice a week, which the researchers say is more than most Americans.

    This just in! Both chair throwing and jumping around like a monkey count as vigorous exercise.

    --
    In Soviet Russia meme tires of you!
    1. Re:New exercise regimen by andy19 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't forget masturbation. I'm surprised it's only once or twice a week though, with this demographic.

  6. Fitter than your average American by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Alegory:

    - Faster than your average snail
    - Larger than your average sand grain
    - Truthier than your average Scientology book
    - Funnier than your average /. post

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  7. That reminds me... by red+star+hardkore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I need to get more diazepam for my next clan battle in counterstrike.

    1. Re:That reminds me... by arth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Speaking of other games -- who made the erroneous extrapolation that what applies to Everquest II players will necessarily apply to "gamers"? The "researchers", the slashdot submitter or the editor?

      Perhaps there is a common cause for depression, playing EQ2 and being "healthy" (or did they mean "not overweight", and made another erroneous extrapolation?), and perhaps not.

      In any case, this doesn't say anything about gamers in general. To use a car analogy for a change, this is like studying a group of people who own a Ford Explorer, and then extrapolate this to draw conclusion about drivers.

  8. Wait a second... by adml_shake · · Score: 4, Funny

    since when has an evercrack player ever gotten away long enough to score some drugs? Or have a way to pay for them? Most of the ones I know of can't stop long enough to make the walk out of the basement to go raid the medicine cabinet in the bathroom.

    1. Re:Wait a second... by Wicked+Zen · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well it USED to big a secret, 'til you opened your big fat mouth.

  9. Proof by MyLongNickName · · Score: 4, Funny

    I am about to prove that the average Slashdotter is more healthy, and gets more sex than the general public.

    Please reserve this thread for discussions of your physical fitness level and love life. I will start.

    First, before work every morning, I run a marathon. On the weekends, I do triathlons(one each day). Ofcourse, I do this while carrying 12kg dumbbells in each hand (I drop to 8kg when swimming).

    Each evening I pleasure three supermodels except during lent when I drop to one due to my highly religious beliefs.

    Anyone else have any data to add to this research?

    --
    See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
  10. Re:Everquest 2? by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I must admit that the demographic for EQ2 is very different then for say GTA. Even WoW has a much younger audience.

  11. Substances by pizza_milkshake · · Score: 4, Funny

    Substances like soda and frosting.

  12. Of course they're depressed... by the_skywise · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They never WIN...

    YAAAYYY!!! I'm level 8...

    ooh... but I'm not level 9...

    Games like that are a sharp contrast of what you have/haven't achieved until you top out the game... and then it's on to the next game.

    1. Re:Of course they're depressed... by fprintf · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wow, the opposite of the usual UID game. Cool! (BTW, I lose to both of you)

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
  13. heyho. by apodyopsis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    so people suffer from depression and substance abuse when they spend most of their time indoors by themselves and most of their friends are virtual?

    in what fashion is this news?

    any doctor from the 50s could of predicted this given the symptoms/way of life of a hard core gamer. they'd of been horrified to learn that most of us sit in a chair for hours at a time hammering like poor possessed souls on little rows of buttons. as for junk food and long range commutes - who knows what they would of thought?

    1. Re:heyho. by oxidiser · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've often wondered why gamers are the pariahs of the home entertainment world. It's much more acceptable to society if you lay on your couch all night and stare at the idiot box. I'll bet if you described the two activities to a doctor from the 50s he'd be slightly more concerned about the person doing literally NOTHING than the gamer who has to at least use his brain and move (albeit very little). I play MMOs and I'm not "hammering like [a] poor possessed soul" on my keyboard. What the hell does that even mean? People who don't play MMOs sure have a funny view of those that do. I'd wager more than 99.9% of us don't waste all of our time playing games, don't live in basements, aren't virgin, aren't fat, etc. But then again, probably most of the people who pick on gamers are TV watchers I mentioned above and they want to feel better about their sedentary activity of choice.

    2. Re:heyho. by kv9 · · Score: 2, Funny

      if you hate your job that much why don't you quit and go do something adventurous. like, I don't know, windowcleaning skyscrapers. that sounds fucking XXXXXXXXXXXXTREME!

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
  14. Re:Everquest 2? by Jim_Maryland · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I haven't seen demographics from any of the games you listed, but I play WoW and most of the guild members (approximately 35 on regularly) and friends (6 real life, approximately 15 unguilded or other guilds) I play with are at least 30 years old. I'd put a quarter of them over 40 and one is 60. Now I realize it is a small sample, but so far my experience is that WoW doesn't have a younger audience.

  15. Self-selected survey? by argent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I bet if you performed a self-selected survey on any group you'd get slightly better than average results.

  16. Note by soast · · Score: 2, Insightful

    depression and substance abuse = better physical condition

  17. on sadness and substance abuse by rgviza · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'd agree with this. I just cancelled all of my accounts.

    I started mmo gaming to hide from a failing marriage, after marriage counseling failed. My wife started getting meaner and meaner, so I started gaming to bury myself in my office and hide from it.

    We recently decided to get a divorce. I dropped all of my accounts, started working out again and I've never been more happy in my life. "Hardcore" gamers are usually either escaping from something, or addicted to gaming. Neither situation is conducive to happiness. I'd guess that the ones who are escaping from something are more often also abusing(caffiene, pot, beer, whatever).

    I don't think gaming directly causes the unhappiness, it's caused by the circumstances surrounding the gaming. I started gaming *because* I was unhappy. Obsessive compulsive gamers tend to lose their jobs and families because of the gaming. My marriage was already on life support so it was sort of reversed.

    Casual gaming is also pretty prevalent and that's perfectly healthy. I'd bet that they'd get much different results interviewing casual gamers.

    I quit because now I have better stuff to do and the source of my pain is gone. I'm also looking better because I cook my own food out of fresh ingredients ;). I feel really bad for addicted people. They have to hit rock bottom to quit. I never had to do that. Well actually, it's probably more accurate to say I hit rock bottom before I started gaming.

    -Viz

    --
    Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
    1. Re:on sadness and substance abuse by kv9 · · Score: 4, Funny

      started mmo gaming to hide from a failing marriage, after marriage counseling failed. [snip] We recently decided to get a divorce. I dropped all of my accounts, started working out again and I've never been more happy in my life.

      I fucking hate people like you. you just fuck up online games with your lack of commitment. why don't you just hit the bottle like a normal person would do. or drugs. something. you know, some of us do actually enjoy gaming and don't use it as a filler for a void fucking life.

      you failed at marriage. you failed at gaming. good luck "working out". hope that works out for you.

      *groan*

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
    2. Re:on sadness and substance abuse by TerranFury · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hello? Are you his unpleasant ex-wife?

  18. Depression? Really? by lupine_stalker · · Score: 3, Funny

    I resent the implication that we gamers suffer from problems with depression. I mean, with the amount of Ecstasy I've downed over the past 24 hours I should be well past carefree until Sunday, at least!

    --
    Ninjas use italics.
  19. Did they survey them IN PERSON? by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Because if not, every male you speak to in an MMO is either 6'2", well muscled, former special forces soldier who is proficient in at least two forms of martial arts.

    Unless they're pretending to be a girl for all the attention and free loot.

    --
    Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
  20. Fairly obvious really by james_bray · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Many gamers are socially inept...
    Gamers want GF/BF so they keep themselves trim...
    Gamers dont get GF/BF so they get depressed/abuse substances.

    QED

    James (A Single Gamer)

    --
    http://www.reeb.freeserve.co.uk
  21. EQII by Tykho · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'd be depressed if all I played was Everquest too.

  22. I've said it before and I'll say it again by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's only abuse if the drugs don't consent!

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  23. I agree by koan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am fitter than most of my co workers and I game quite a bit, FPS only these days as RPG's are to addictive.
      I can see why there would be more depression and substance abuse, after all they don't call it "Evercrack" for nothing, and video games are just another escape like drugs or alcohol for some people.

    I think it stems from lack of control / feelings of powerlessness in real life and when they game (especially RPG'S) there is a feeling of control and power, escapism at its finest.

    In either case I chose to only play quake style FPS (TF2, Quakewars, ETC) instead of RPG's, because in an RPG I wind up putting more effort into the game than I do my own "real life".
    FPS I just shoot characters for a few hours and I am done no character to worry about.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  24. "correlation is not causation" by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    has become a self-reflexive meme, especially on slashdot, used without thought

    well guess what: finding a correlation is the first step in establishing causation, and it is entirely logical to conjecture a causative arrangement once a correlative conneciton has been established

    so in the future, i would suggest that you, and anyone else reading this comment who loves vomiting "correlation is not causation" as a substitute for actual thought, to spell out exactly why you think there is no causative arrangement here, or in any other discussion

    because i, and many others i think here on slashdot and elsewhere are pretty sick of the smarmy "correlation is not causation" kneejerk response

    its nothing more than intellectual laziness at best, but most usually intellectual dishonesty

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:"correlation is not causation" by Thiez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are right. Even the article is tagged "correlation is not causation". Nowhere in the article or the summary is said 'Gaming causes X'. If anyone has bothered to read it (Welcome, you must be new here, haha we're having so much fun) they would have noticed that the researchers SPECULATE on causes for the differences between gamers and other people, but they don't say X causes Y. Because they know that they can't prove that. Because they KNOW "correlation is not causation".

      GGP says:

      > It's a shame, because it affects the conclusion. IMHO it should be -

      But there is no conclusion in the article, EXCEPT for concluding that the stereotype of gamers being overweight is incorrect. They support this 'conclusion' by gathering statistics, by making an observation. No correlation or causation was involved.

      > because i, and many others i think here on slashdot and elsewhere are pretty sick of the smarmy "correlation is not causation" kneejerk response

      Aye. I hate how stories keep getting tagged 'correlationisnotcausation' for no good reason. Whenever a headline says 'X linked to Y' we get that tag, but those articles rarely suggest 'X causes Y', because the scientists ain't crazy either, so the tag just stands there to remind us how clever we all are on /. .

  25. if you lived in society by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    where all drugs were 100% legal, including meth, heroin, cocaine, etc., the use of these substances would still be seen as a mental health issue

    because it is not mentally normal to need a foreign substance to support your brain chemistry

    it may be harmless, yes, but look at any cigarette smoker and you pretty much have a compelling picture of the parasitism that is substance addiction

    anyone who doesn't NEED drugs understands what i am talking about

    and if you say you don't NEED a certain drug, and are right now formulating a rationalization against these words of mine, then congratulations: you are probably an addict. an addict needs a hard, reactive wall of rationalization to convince themselves to constantly need a foregin substance for their brain chemistry

    in fact your words above "an indicator that the person has little regard for this area of law, and may be disconnected from society/not buy into its values" screams rationalization

    using drugs has absolutely nothing to do with being countercultural. there are many people who buy all of a society's questionable values who become addicts (rush limbaugh) and there are plenty of counterculture icons who don't use drugs at all

    or, put another way, when it comes to being counterculture and using drugs, correlation is not causation ;-)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:if you lived in society by Nursie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "where all drugs were 100% legal, including meth, heroin, cocaine, etc., the use of these substances would still be seen as a mental health issue"

      Those ones you mentioned, perhaps so. Other substances less so, clearly depending on whether people are exhibiting addictive behaviour.

      "because it is not mentally normal to need a foreign substance to support your brain chemistry"

      Agreed. Where exactly was "need" mentioned?

      "anyone who doesn't NEED drugs understands what i am talking about"

      I don't understand what you're talking about and it's been years since I transgressed the law in this area. You've jumped straight from me saying "not all drug use is abuse" to accusing me of being an addict.

      "and if you say you don't NEED a certain drug, and are right now formulating a rationalization against these words of mine, then congratulations: you are probably an addict. an addict needs a hard, reactive wall of rationalization to convince themselves to constantly need a foregin substance for their brain chemistry"

      You're barking up the wrong tree mate. My complaint was the immediate anti-drug stance (i.e. no qualification of the word abuse) taken by the media. You're the one coming up with talk about addiction, habits etc.

      "in fact your words above "an indicator that the person has little regard for this area of law, and may be disconnected from society/not buy into its values" screams rationalization"

      Please explain. It is now very commonplace for people to smoke weed, however doing so implies a disregard for the law of the land. It does not necessarily imply addiction, any more than going for a beer with your buddies after work implies alcoholism.

      "using drugs has absolutely nothing to do with being countercultural."

      Didn't say it did, I said it implied lack of respect for that area of law and not buying into society's values, notably the ones that brought that law into being and keep it in place.

      "there are many people who buy all of a society's questionable values who become addicts (rush limbaugh) and there are plenty of counterculture icons who don't use drugs at all"

      Again with the addiction! I would also suggest that Rush does not buy into the crap he spews forth.

      "there are plenty of counterculture icons who don't use drugs at all"

      So?

      "or, put another way, when it comes to being counterculture and using drugs, correlation is not causation ;-)"

      Yes, but when it comes to taking illegal drugs you are breaking the law, this shows explicitly that you don't respect that part of the law or the social values that brought it into being and keep it there. It's pretty simple.

      I'm not trying to paint some sort of counterculture mystique here, just say it is possible to use some of these things without being or becoming an addict or an "abuser", and that if you do you probably don't fully buy into the values of the society you find yourself in as you are going directly against them.

    2. Re:if you lived in society by hesiod · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > if you say you don't NEED a certain drug, and are right now formulating a rationalization against these words of mine, then congratulations: you are probably an addict.

      False dichotomy much? If someone smokes pot once a month, then they are a dirty addict? Once a year? Once a week? Once a day, just because they enjoy it so much?

  26. Conclusions are a stretch by Conficio · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "US researchers quizzed players of the role-playing game EverQuest II"

    To conclude from a random quiz of a single game anything about a much broader community "gamers" is a far stretch.

    --
    Busy helping non technical users of OpenOffice.org - http://plan-b-for-openoffice.org/
  27. Lies, damn lies, and Sony by billcopc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While everyone else is lying about their health, I'm going to be brutally honest:

    1. I'm 300lbs
    2. I imbibe a gallon or two of beer/liquor each week
    3. Cocaine's a hell of a drug
    4. Nethack, baby!

    All that to say: there is absolutely no unique correlation between gaming habits and fitness. You could have any hobby/pastime in the world, if you overdo it, it can be bad for your health. If you knit 23 hours a day, you're (hopefully) gonne die. If you run marathons 23 hours a day, you're definitely gonna die.

    Hell, if you jerk off 23 hours a day, you're gonna die (and be featured on CSI:Miami).

    Someone needs to lay the fuck off of gamers. Just because a bunch of nutso kids in Columbine liked to play Doom, doesn't mean gamers should be treated as odd little lab rats.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  28. thanks, cretin by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Informative

    imagine a continuum running from water to sugar to caffeine to methamphetamine

    sonmewhere within that continuum you begin to develop legal restrictions on what is ok to use and what is not

    i mean we can argue about gun control law too. but if i say i am for gun control laws, that doesn't mean i want to control your thoughts as well. likewise, if i am against gun control laws, that also doesn't mean i want everyone to have free access to plutonium

    see how complicated that is cretin? arguing about moderate limits has nothing to do with extreme examples of harmlessness or harmfulness

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it