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Reducing Boot Time On a General Linux Distro

Linzer writes "In this blog entry, Fred Crozat (head of Mandriva's engineering team in France) explains in great detail how his team has been detecting and getting rid of bottlenecks in the boot process, from the early stages to loading the desktop environment, thus decreasing overall boot time. An informative tour of the nuts and bolts of the boot process and how they can be tinkered with: initrd, initscripts, udev, modprobe calls. The basic tool they use for performance analysis is bootchart, which produces a map of process information and resource utilization during boot. The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type her password."

354 comments

  1. Interesting but how useful, really? by djh101010 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can see optimizing this for the sake of the geeky goodness of it and all that but, really, how often does someone reboot a Linux box, that this even enters into it? Maybe I'm unusual but mine usually stay up until there's a new version of my distro of choice to upgrade to. Time to boot just doesn't impact me very much.

    1. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Yvan256 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Some people power down their computers at night.

    2. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know many who turn off their computer when they are done using it. I also have yet to get sleep/hibernate to work reliably. It will work 3-4 times, then it won't come back on. I've tried both on ubuntu and slackware. Having the computer twiddling its thumbs is using energy, however small compared to just turning it off.

    3. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes you are unusual.
      I shut down my work PC when I leave at night. I shut down my laptop when I put it back into the case.
      Netbooks are also shutdown when you put them away.
      Even you might shutdown your PC to save some power if it didn't take very long to power it back up.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anrego · · Score: 1, Informative

      I agree...

      Maybe if I used a laptop it would be different.. but as it stands I only reboot my computer when I upgrade my kernel (which isn't often).

      What I have noticed is distro's like Gentoo boot fast because the user starts from the ground up and adds only the services they need. A default install of Debian comes with a large number of services that your average user probably doesn't need.. and probably slow the boot process.

      That's not to say Gentoo is necessarily better.. I recently decided to give Debian another try after years of using Gentoo.. and this is just one of the observations I`ve made.

    5. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Pvt_Ryan · · Score: 1

      Actually a lot if you use it as a desktop OS..
      (Hopefully) not a lot when using it as a server.

    6. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by djchristensen · · Score: 1

      I shut my laptop down just about every night and reboot it the next day. Boot time really isn't that bad in Ubunutu 7.10, certainly in comparison to Windows (XP or Vista), but it would be nice if it were even faster. My desktop at work, on the other hand, is like yours--it stays up until I upgrade the distro (or sometimes if I'm not too busy at work, I'll let it upgrade the kernel and reboot).

      Either way, speeding up the boot process can't hurt, even if only 5% of users end up caring, so let these guys have their fun and applaud them for it. I do.

    7. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You should REALLY turn off your pc when you're not using it. Saving 30 seconds for whole hours of needless power consumption is irresponsible for the environment. Tree-hugging aside, just because you don't need to do it, it's very important for people who do need to turn off their computers, such as those who use laptops.

    8. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use xubuntu on my laptop (too lazy to do a proper slackware install), so I turn my computer off (or suspend it) fairly often. This seems like a nice idea for a relatively new linux user who wants faster boot time, but not aimed at the experts or the douchebags who fall asleep to the hum of their idling computer.

    9. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Neil+Watson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fast boot laptops would be a nice feature. On the server side look at Sun's SMF of Solaris 10. It boots many services in parallel. Not only does this decrease boot time but SMF knows the depencies of all services. This is useful when troubleshooting a failed service. I'd like to see this in Linux.

    10. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      My USB ports fail after being idle for too long (on my desktop). Since I have a USB mouse, I have to reboot. Yes, it's a Linux/Ubuntu problem (no problem in Windows, but I usually use Linux), and yes, I'm sure it can be fixed, I just haven't had tinker time in a while.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    11. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by meringuoid · · Score: 5, Funny
      Some people power down their computers at night.

      How can they sleep without the soothing fan noise?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    12. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by setagllib · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes! We will call it... Upstart! Oh wait.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    13. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Aeolien · · Score: 1

      Or have a laptop that can't hibernate.

    14. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by stevey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That makes sense, but there is using a PC and using a PC.

      My main desktop machine I leave on 24x7. I might not be logged into it, but it is used to create off-site backups of some remote servers.

      So while it isn't being used by me directly, it has a job to do during the nights it is left running.

    15. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should REALLY turn off your pc when you're not using it. Saving 30 seconds for whole hours of needless power consumption is irresponsible for the environment.

      Has no one here heard of hibernate or sleep?

    16. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      But night time is when the backups run! Not to mention all of those system maintenance scripts.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    17. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I used to have that problem. Drove me bananas. The problem wasn't fixed until I got a new computer. I did find a slightly better solution than rebooting, though. I used to keep a CLI window up. If the mouse failed, I'd unload the USBHID kernel modules, then reload them. I don't remember which modules in specific, but it did provide relief without rebooting.

      Unfortunately, this was a fairly common issue with the Linux kernel. There was little interest in fixing it at the time, so you may just need new hardware. (It's possible that the issue was ignored because it was caused by poor USB implementations. Which would hopefully mean that newer hardware is unaffected.)

    18. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by smellsofbikes · · Score: 5, Funny

      I have fanless computers, you insensitive clod!

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    19. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, if you are using it as a server, boot up time is trivial, but if you want to run it on a desktop or a laptop (although better support for sleep and hibernate would be even better), boot-up time is key. Considering the Windoze has been taking longer and longer to boot, this would be a good competitive advantage and if combined with other improvements, might help convince folks to try linux.

    20. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by bgillespie · · Score: 1

      Does anyone else have Folding@Home or another distributed computing project running on their machine? It's not wasted power if the cycles are being donated... TO SCIENCE!!!

    21. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I shut down my laptop when I put it back into the case.

      Why not use s2disk?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    22. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know we can set our computers to turn on at a specified time and have the backup software turn off after it has finished. This tends to work well in an office, from 10pm to 4am, every 10 minutes a computer will turn itself on, run the backup, then turn itself off. Kinda nifty.

    23. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by lupis42 · · Score: 1

      I would definitely shut down my gaming box much more often if it took less time to power up. As it is, 2+ minutes, is just annoying. I generally want a quick fix.

    24. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by fprintf · · Score: 1

      Agreed with this one. My laptop* won't hibernate, and sleep mode still uses some power (plus keeping the old non-switched transformer going). So I usually shut down. Anything that would make it come up quicker would be a bonus. Disabling all unnecessary services, like Bluetooth, was helpful.

      *IBM T30

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
    25. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anrego · · Score: 1

      I'm curing cancer!

      But in all seriousness.. my desktop also acts as a small web server. Not enough traffic to justify a separate box.. but enough that it can`t be down for several hours every day. Additionally I use my computer so frequently (yes I`m a true geek... if I get up in the middle of the night I`ll often check email/see whats happening on IRC.. and I tend to shell in from work frequently) that it just doesn't make sense to shut the thing down.

    26. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by tuxgeek · · Score: 1, Flamebait
      Well then, you have been a popular boy today.

      On topic, My desktop tries to run forever but occasionally a print server or driver will crash and my printer will go berserk requiring a reboot. And as 99% of linux distros are bleeding edge, apps can make the system unstable, also requiring a reboot to clear things out. Ubuntu is notorious for this. Debian stable is usually well behaved but again when put to the test, modules fail and the thing needs reset to a clean slate.

      In comparison, M$ often crashes fatally, whereas Linux can be salvaged gracefully.

      Off topic: Your sig regarding Sarah Palin quotes. All those are just political rainbows, sunshine, and empty hollow works being blown up your ass. I live in Alaska. She has not done jack shit as Gov after 2 years besides letting the oil companies run the state and taking bribes from them under the table. As a true republican, she believes in pissing down your back and telling you it's raining liquid sunshine.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    27. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      probably habit more than anything. Plus it is a duel boot so sometimes I jump over to Windows to play FS9

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    28. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by kesuki · · Score: 2, Informative

      the cheapest solution is a $10 usb 2.0 controller. http://www1.pricewatch.com/public/info2.aspx?i=44&z=2988&ro=2&aid=32983822&u=http%3A%2F%2F3btech.net%2Fadaufopousb2.html

      since the motherboards usb is buggy, this $10 fix will solve the problem.

    29. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by jadedoto · · Score: 1

      When I carry my laptop around, I really don't like to leave it on all the time.

    30. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by BigAssRat · · Score: 1

      Some of us run it on our laptops.

    31. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by bestinshow · · Score: 1

      I'm sure they have, I'm sure some of them have tried it, and I'm also more than certain that only a small portion of those people got it to work correctly - which means that all services, networks, wireless, etc, are restored correctly upon waking up.

      Unless they were using Macs, where I'm sure that 95%+ of such people have never had problems with sleep or hibernate working correctly.

    32. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by MyLongNickName · · Score: 3, Insightful

      dditionally I use my computer so frequently (yes I`m a true geek... if I get up in the middle of the night I`ll often check email/see whats happening on IRC.. and I tend to shell in from work frequently)

      And wouldn't that be exactly the point in reducing boot times? I shut down at night, but would be shut down more often if I could have my PC up and available in under ten seconds.

      And P.S. getting on to check your email in the middle of the night isn't the sign of a true geek. It is borderline obsessive :).

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    33. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      I use xubuntu on my laptop (too lazy to do a proper slackware install)

      Funny that, I've always found getting any flavour of Ubuntu up and running a somewhat frustrating experience. However, I can get a fully usable Slackware install happening in much less than an hour. Go figure. Though more recently, I have taken a liking to Arch Linux, which has all of the nice simplicity of Slackware, but more active community maintenance of things like Gnome.

      But getting back to the point, I'm coming round to switching off at night simply because I am trying to do my bit to use less power, since my desktop machine uses lots and lots of it. My laptop (which is a Mac anyway, so is more or less irrelevant to the discussion) just gets put to sleep.

      What might prove to be of interest later on, though, is how much change I see in hardware lifespan. I come from a long-held view that the best way to keep components running is to keep them running (I have worked with computers since the '70s), so if I notice a sudden plethora of hardware failures, I might consider going back to leaving stuff powered up.

    34. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Funny, but my work XP desktop has only crashed due to a failed hard drive and my Vista laptop has not crashed at all.

      But, I have seen apps crash Linux, especially if that app is X.

      Oh, your little 99% comment is incorrect also.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    35. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by michrech · · Score: 1

      My computer stays on, in the living room. My bedroom contains exactly three things that use electricity. The alarm clock, the waterbed heater, and the ceiling fan/light fixture.

      Some people power down their computers at night.

      How can they sleep without the soothing fan noise?

      --
      bork bork bork!
    36. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Setherghd · · Score: 1

      Are you serious?

      Read: laptops

    37. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ccguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some people power down their computers at night.

      If their default linux setup doesn't complete boot-up before their finish their morning piss they have a problem that no guide will fix :-)

    38. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by theCoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gentoo's init system is like this (and has been for quite a while). It doesn't do stuff in parallel by default, but I think there is an option to enable that.

      I think I remember hearing something about Ubuntu and/or Debian also trying to create something like that, as well.

      --
      "Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
    39. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1

      As much as I would love to tree-hug, I'm also hugging a different kind of tree to better the environment by running Boinc (rosetta@home/foldit@home).

      So, by leaving my computer on, I am helping.

      --
      Disclaimer: I am not god.
      We may not be created equal
      But we can be treated equal.
    40. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by value_added · · Score: 5, Funny

      My bedroom contains exactly three things that use electricity. The alarm clock, the waterbed heater, and the ceiling fan/light fixture.

      So, what the wife uses is ... battery-powered?

    41. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3 Arch Linux. its my favorite distro any day of the week... Oddly enough - I also find i can get full xorg working with proper video drivers and all my favorite apps quicker than I can polish out a flavor of ubuntu to cooperate.

    42. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by rlp · · Score: 1

      how often does someone reboot a Linux box, that this even enters into it?

      I guess you don't own a Linux laptop.

      --
      [Insert pithy quote here]
    43. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by michrech · · Score: 3, Funny

      There is no wife/girlfriend, thankyouverymuch.

      --
      bork bork bork!
    44. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, but for some reason that's a hugely important metric that commenter, reviewers, and Slashdot posters pay attention to when new OS releases happen. So it's important from a PR standpoint, if for no other reason-- the real news here is that anybody using Linux has any conception of things that are important from a PR standpoint.

    45. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      I shut down my work PC when I leave at night.

      I'm probably not at all typical, but I need to keep my work PC on so I can remote into it if clients call with problems after-hours. Or even if it turns out I need to call in sick, but still get at some of my files.

      I shut down my laptop when I put it back into the case.

      Uh, laptops have sleep mode and suspend. I can't imagine why anybody would ever shutdown a laptop unless they were going on vacation and not bringing it along. Or selling it, maybe.

    46. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ogrisel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Boot time is very important for laptops when the sleep / hibernate feature is not well supported, prone to crash or slower than the boot it-self.

    47. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      The more environmentalists tell me what the do, the more I do the opposite just out of spite. :P

      More seriously, though, my backup software (Mozy.com) runs overnight. If I turned off my PC, it'd never get backed-up. Plus Folder Sync requires both computers to be on to get synched correctly, so my laptop wouldn't get synced if my desktop was turned off.

    48. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by afidel · · Score: 2

      An Apple Cube?

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    49. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by tmalone · · Score: 1

      I would except in Vista it takes a couple minutes to go into and out of hibernate. Booting is actually must faster. I think this is because I have 4 gigs of ram. My wife's laptop with only 2 gigs is much faster at hibernating. Linux used to be quite quick in the hibernation department, but I've been testing out Ubuntu Intrepid and hibernate stopped working correctly for me.

    50. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      A lot of people shut down and restart regularly.

      Unless your box is actually doing something useful overnight, you're wasting a lot of power leaving it switched on all the time. Never mind the tree-hugger angle, that's costing you money.

      If you look at it in a logical way - how much of the time spent using a computer is spent booting - no, it's not important at all. Optimizing almost anything else is more efficient. However, people aren't logical. People tend to place more emphasis on time spent waiting for the system to boot than a lot of other bottlenecks. You can argue about the reasons for this, it's an interesting psychological debate, but the fact is that it's true. Boot speed has a big psychological effect on how fast people think a system is. So, it's a good idea to optimize it.

      (I work for MDV, for those who don't know. I have a small supporting role in Fred's post, credited as 'other colleagues'. :>)

    51. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 2, Informative

      I dual boot. Switching from Windows(gaming/schoolwork) to Linux(software development, general use) is a common thing for me.

      --
      while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    52. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 1

      EVERYONE that has replied to me seems to consider that they're not using their computer when they're not there. If your pc is doing stuff, you don't have to be there for it to qualify as "usage time"
      In another note, how many users do you think do backups and maintenance? For most of home users, the increase in data integrity security isn't worth the extra degree of complexity, because for most people, home pc usage isn't mission critical.
      Finally, those tasks don't normally take the 8 hour average that is called "night". If you're so good at scripting, I'm sure you can put a sudo shutdown -h right there at the end of the script, after everything else has finished. Some programs even offer a "shut down pc when done" checkbox.

    53. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AdamWill · · Score: 5, Informative

      As Fred's post mentions, Mandriva has been using a parallel init system (called prcsys) since January 2006. It's entirely SysV compatible and requires only that the SysV init scripts have dependency information (in fd.o standardized format) in the headers. It transparently handles init scripts with no dependency information (they're started serially, after everything else) and can be disabled with a single kernel parameter, 'nopinit'. It pre-dates upstart, which only showed up in late 2006.

    54. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by chill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On or from a desktop?

      If so, check out your BIOS to have the PC wake itself up in the middle of the night, just before your scheduled jobs kick off. Make the last scheduled job power the machine off and your problem is solved.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    55. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Some people hibernate their computers at night.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    56. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by street+struttin' · · Score: 4, Informative

      OSX's launchd does a fantastic job at this. My Macbook boots in no time. Plus it keeps on working while I'm in the desktop environment, so if I need a service I can just start using it and it's launched automatically. A good example is the ssh-agent. It just works.

    57. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by zx-15 · · Score: 1

      You can always choose to install only the base system ~130 packages or so, ~400 MBytes on disk. It's pretty barebone but you can build any environment you like from scratch without incurring bloat.

    58. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's so buggy that Windows doesn't have a problem with it.

      Seriously, I'm a huge Linux fan, I use it at work, I use it at home, I'm using it right now... but that's just ridiculous.

      I don't have to keep a shell window open, as there are hot keys enough to get one (I don't reboot by hitting the button), but I'm not about to spend a penny on something Windows can handle just because Linux can't.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    59. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by MightyYar · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      So you are proud of wasting power?

      If it pisses you off, then it might not be "wasted".

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    60. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      why use s2disk?
      kde (and theres probably a gnome tool too) can save active windows, so whats the benefit in s2disk?

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    61. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      I pay an electricity bill so I'll use as much as I damn well want. Mind your own business.

    62. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by freelook · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'd love to leave my Linux desktop box on all the time, but it's wasteful, hot and noisy when it's on. And in the case of my Linux laptop, I can't take it on the road with it on all the time.

      Of course for both of these machines suspending to ram would be great, but, as is common with many linux setups, sleep doesn't work properly. So what are you going to do?

      Broaden suspend support, and you may have a point.

    63. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Shorter boot time. With s2disk you don't have to wait for the bios to POST, for the kernel to probe your devices, etc. Also, how well does this kde feature deal with terminal windows? If I'm editing something in vi in a terminal, is KDE smart enough to reopen the terminal window and start vi with the cursor right where I left it with my history and everything intact? I'd be amazed if it were.

      s2disk works very very well, at least on my laptop. It's the right tool for this purpose.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    64. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by sl0wp0is0n · · Score: 1

      Ever heard of suspend? I always suspend my laptop.

      --
      My other dog is a Wienerschnitzel.
    65. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 1

      I run linux on a laptop. Boot and shutdown times are very important when you want to start using the computer *right now* to google something/show someone a picture/remote into a server and restart apache/etc. Or in a server environment, if I do have to reboot a server, I want it to come back up as fast as possible to minimize downtime and to confirm that it's not stalled at a console prompt. Reducing perceived boot time is critical to linux' success on the desktop, and doesn't hurt at all in a server setting.

    66. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by zmooc · · Score: 1

      You're probably right, but the matter is much more complex than you make it sound. The problem is that turning a computer on and off causes thermal stress and other undesirable things that affect the lifespan of your computer. Therefore, on average, turning off a computer each night will shorten its lifespan. Since manufacturing, transporting and recycling a computer costs lots of energy, this should be taken into account when determining whether turning a computer off is really good for the environment.

      Apart from that, computers really don't use that much power. Turning your computer off for a night will save about as much energy as your car uses while driving 200-300 meters. Since I'm so lazy that I drive about 1000 meter to work and back each day, it would be totally ridiculous for me to turn of my computer to protect the environment. Add to that that the average home-work distance in my country is 15 times what I travel each day and you probably get the picture.

      Other comparison: turning your computer off each night of your live is completely undone by traveling 5000km by airplane ONCE.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    67. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This response illustrates a phenomenon my friends in the business refer to as:

      "More friendly advice from the helpful Linux community"

      Other examples include:

      "Did you read the documentation?" - Ah, usually offered in response to your post that the documentation didn't help...

      "If you don't understand this, you shouldn't be doing this" - Yes, that exaplains why Linux is so often touted as a great way to learn stuff.

      "Did you try reinstalling?" - When not offered in response to your question which includes describing repeated installations, it is offered as a rational first step, especially to kernel problems...

      "You should be using {insert other distro name here}, {insert your ditro name here} sucks" - You can count on this response immediately after a distro update, though it is also offered when you use a distro that is not one of the top 2...

      "Can you give us your {insert all manner of filenames here}?" - usually asked for in response to problems that cause panics, but also offered for problems that do, after much investigation, not have any logs. Like games.

      Sorry, but I had to blurt out another "this is not helpful" response. The fact is, some Linux machines do actually get shutdown, and for valid reasons. And the question presupposes that shutdown is a given, since the question was about startup...

      But I get where you're coming from. Many Linux users have no concept of the conditions and uses that other Linux users work within. None whatsoever.

      I rarely post helpful advice to Linux questions, mostly cause I don't have answers, but when I do I try to actually be helpful. And I usually try to be polite to those who aren't. But I slip now and then...

      It's not quite as bad as Windows advice, which varies from "reboot" to "reinstall" to "post your hijackthis logs". You have to cultivate excellent technical sites for good advice, and give back when you can.

      Oh, wait. this is /. after all... nevermind.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    68. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by BrentH · · Score: 2, Funny

      Real Dolls don't need any power.

    69. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the main point is that I still resent environmentalist weenies telling me what to do with my life. I don't tell them what to do, so they should kindly shut the hell up and let me do what I want. Ok?

    70. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, I'm with you on the whole "environmentalists are obnoxious" thing. But just because they're obnoxious, doesn't make them wrong...

    71. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by grumbel · · Score: 1

      The whole reason why people don't shut down their Linux boxes is because booting takes so long. If booting would be fast people would have a good reason to shut down their box much more often. And that aside, "geeky goodness" also isn't such a bad argument, after all its kind of ridiculous that computer speed has increased a thousand times since the C64 or early DOS boxes, but at the same time boot times have gone from pretty much instantaneous to horrible long. I mean is there a good reason why we shouldn't expect todays hardware to be instantly on on a button press?

    72. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by dylan_- · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's so buggy that Windows doesn't have a problem with it.

      Seriously, I'm a huge Linux fan, I use it at work, I use it at home, I'm using it right now... but that's just ridiculous.

      The usb implementation is buggy. They threw in enough fixes till it roughly worked on Windows and then it was considered good enough to ship. That's why it doesn't work on Linux. I'm just wondering how you don't know this already. Surely you've heard of this happening before?

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    73. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Provocateur · · Score: 1

      and the green Matrix 3d screensaver?

      Oh, wait, that's not a screensaver!

      --
      WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
    74. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by djKing · · Score: 1

      The big opportunity for this is with Linux netbooks. An Eee 901 that boots in three seconds instead of 30 would be great.

      --
      Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
    75. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by hedleyroos · · Score: 2, Funny

      I love how Blakey Rat and pm_rat_posion are chatting. You'd think they'd be enemies.

    76. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      IBM T22 here. Suspend to RAM and disk work fine and even bring the wifi up on resume.

      Info:
      openSUSE 11, KDE 3.5, KNetworkManager, KPowersave
      b43 kernel driver for PCMCIA Linksys WPC54G
      Kernel 2.6.26.5 (current stable from kernel.org)

      Sidenote:
      b43 was a godsend. The old bcm43xx wouldn't run the card for me, had to blacklist it and use ndiswrapper. That needed rmmod and modprobe in a script to bring back up. With this driver I can use the card for aircrack-ng properly.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    77. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by BigGar' · · Score: 4, Funny

      You just call in a contractor as the project requires, eh?

      --


      Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
    78. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by jgrahn · · Score: 1

      The whole reason why people don't shut down their Linux boxes is because booting takes so long.

      I don't believe that's true. Coming back to the state where your environment is useful takes long. Booting is a tiny part of that time, and none of the boring work.

    79. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pdxp · · Score: 1

      l2 WOL maybe?

    80. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      > There is no wife/girlfriend, thankyouverymuch.

      Mod Parent Redundant. This is Slashdot, after all. :-)

    81. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by smellsofbikes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, a Cobalt Qube with no fan because it runs cool enough to not need it. It does a fine job of powering IPCop on its old 250mhz MIPS processor, providing a firewall, SQUID, and NAT for the house, and only using a handful of watts while doing it.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    82. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I've looked into that, but the Rube Goldberg setup like that always runs into trouble. Either the BIOS is flaky and doesn't do a good job of keeping it's schedule, or you're working late at night and suddenly your machine powers down because the script told it to.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    83. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see optimizing this for the sake of the geeky goodness of it and all that but, really, how often does someone reboot a Linux box, that this even enters into it? Maybe I'm unusual but mine usually stay up until there's a new version of my distro of choice to upgrade to. Time to boot just doesn't impact me very much.

      Think outside of the box. It's called embedded devices. Devices that run linux but aren't on 24/7 and people don't want to wait for. For example, would you be happy waiting 30 seconds for your telephone to turn on? (I guess many of us have to anyway because it's so important to see the cell providers advertisements, but the point still stands).

    84. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Is this some code I don't know? Google comes up with nothing.

      So, uh... I2 WOL back to you, buddy!

    85. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Any true geek would have an RSS/Email robot to notify them of emails and important Slashdot articles!

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    86. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And yet, who does the average user blame? Their hardware or Linux? There is a certain threshold beyond which arguing is pointless. If something doesn't work, you're not hurting anyone except yourself by trying to deflect blame. (Rightly or not.) As a developer myself, that's a lesson I had to learn long ago.

      Just some food for thought.

    87. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      I run Gentoo on my notebook.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    88. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      We really need some sort of standard file that lists dependency packages for programs and store these in a standard folder that services like this and package managers can look at to get updates. (Or maybe that's what you're talking about with fd.o files?)

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    89. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by rundgren · · Score: 1

      I use Ubuntu on my work laptop, and usually turn it off at night for security and energy reasons..

    90. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pdxp · · Score: 1
    91. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Acapulco · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not bashing you or anything, but I stopped doing that same thing some years ago when I thought that maybe the amount of resources saved by turning my computer off had much greater impact than a very very long-term goal like those you list.

      The thing is, even when you are indeed helping solve whatever problem you choose to participate in, in reality the design of those projects is to take advantage of the unused cycles of a PC while doing its "regular" scheduled work. That is, to maximize the usage of the PC.

      By leaving your computer on only because of the @home projects you are doing the opposite, ie. not maximixing PC usage, because you are indeed "creating unused cycles" for idle time work. I see it like trying to maximize the electricity use at home by running a garbage-burning generator (just for the sake of the example), and then "creating" garbage on purpose just to "take advantage" of it. That's not really what the original intent of the generator was and thus is not maximizing anything.

      Of course in the end it's your choice, just maybe something you could think about from a different perspective.

      --
      Slashdot. Unreadable news to annoy nerds. - wonkey_monkey
    92. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by tabrisnet · · Score: 1

      not "I2" but "L2", as in "Layer 2". "WoL" is "Wake on Lan".

    93. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had this problem with a usb keyboard of mine. I couldn't tell if it was hardware or software, so i plugged in a ps/2 keyboard and voila problem went away. yeah, I have tons of tinker time, but when i come back from the office i really don't feel like thinking.

    94. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      S2Disk will still POST, as the S2Disk is usually not handled by ACPI anymore (too buggy)

      Now, the kernel looks for a 'hibernate' (in Windows terminology) file on boot, and loads that.

      sub boot {
              if (checkForHibFile())
                      restoreFromHibFile()
              else
                      doNormalBoot()
      }

      Does any major operating system use true ACPI S4? I was under the impression that it was all under OS control and the PC/BIOS knew of it only as a shutdown.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    95. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Any true geek would have an RSS/Email robot to notify them of important Slashdot articles and emails

      Fixed that for you

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    96. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by CaptainZapp · · Score: 2, Funny
      I'm alergic to fan noise.

      You insensitive clod.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    97. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ACMENEWSLLC · · Score: 1

      >>You should REALLY turn off your pc when you're not using it.

      What is wrong with me using the option to sleep? The power usage between sleep and being powered off is not great compared to being powered on. On my SUSE box this is called suspend. Windows is hibernation for very low power or stand by for more power but quicker awakening.

      My MacBook takes seconds to come out of sleep. SUSE takes a bit longer, but it is a 800Mhz box so that may be part of it. Windows isn't bad, but it never awakens correctly.

    98. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Laurence0 · · Score: 1

      I've just put Ubuntu on my Eee 901 to make it more powerful, and closer to what I'm used to. This has extended the boot time from 20 seconds under Xandros to ... significantly more (not timed it yet). Being a laptop, it's on and off a lot more than a desktop or server, so I'd certainly be interested in reducing the boot time as much as possible.

    99. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by greengrass · · Score: 1

      I regularly power up my ASUS 901 Eee PC Sometimes several times a day as I move from place to place or while it's idle to save the battery

      --
      The MS "no sue/patent deal" with Novell/Xandros is like the Pope blessing a Jewish wedding
    100. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh, Woosh. It's obviously my fault that I don't recognize a random string of characters to mean "I2 Wake-On-LAN." Of course, I still don't know what the holy fuck "I2" means (again, nothing relevant in Google), so maybe you just lack the ability to communicate worth a shit.

    101. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Ecuador · · Score: 0, Redundant

      We sure didn't see that one coming...

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    102. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by flosofl · · Score: 4, Funny

      Plus it is a duel boot...

      To the death or will first blood satisfy the honor of these OS's? And do the cellphone and PDA act as seconds?

      --
      "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
    103. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      so when you are done have the last script run a shutdown.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    104. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Laptops tend to get power cycled often; sometimes multiple times per day.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    105. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by kd5zex · · Score: 1

      I crunch for SETI, Rosetta, Einstein@Home and LHC. I have 3 boxes running full bore, 24x7 and my laptop is only powered off during the ride to/from work and. Then again, I do not subscribe to the tree hugging philosophy. Unless you count when I am sitting in a tree waiting to kill innocent animals.

    106. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      And P.S. getting on to check your email in the middle of the night isn't the sign of a true geek. It is borderline obsessive :).

      Yep, that is correct. A True Geek will never have to get up in the middle of the night to check email. He is up all night on the PC, hacking away some code or watching a Star Trek marathon (and is reading the emails as they come in, on a pine window).

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    107. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by digitalhermit · · Score: 1

      At the very least, configure the utilities that will quiesce the processors and disk when not in use. They can reduce power consumption of an idle machine by 80% or more.

    108. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 4, Funny

      It turns out that batteries also involve electricity.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    109. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pdxp · · Score: 1, Insightful

      WoW, chill out man. I was just suggesting that you learn2, or maybe "l2", use Wake-On-LAN to remote into your systems.

      It's commonly used on IRC and in MMORPG's to suggest there's something that may be obvious to others, but not yourself, that you should try in order to make your life easier.

      All you had to do the get the general meaning of my "random string of characters" via Google is to understand that I'm not referring to the Word Of Life Fellowship and direct your attention to the nearest Wikipedia entry that makes sense in the context of your comment I responded to.

      I apologize if none of this makes sense to anyone, since I apparently cannot communicate well enough to achieve the communication-worthiness of a piece of feces.

    110. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not useful, indispensable...
      If you have a movable laptop you will reboot, (or resume, but the issues are similar.)

      And when it comes to netbooks the most looked after feature is instant on.

    111. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Most of the boot time of Debian is cause by their obsession for portability, that is more important than any optimization. The remaining is mainly due to badly written init scripts.

      Of course being obsessed for portability may turn out to be a good thing, I'm really not complaining here, just stating my observations. (Signed: happy Debian user)

    112. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by jannesha · · Score: 1

      ...so, you are one quick shell script (run as a cron job) away from making the problem go away!

    113. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by adrianwn · · Score: 1

      I apologize if none of this makes sense to anyone, since I apparently cannot communicate well enough to achieve the communication-worthiness of a piece of feces.

      I know you're being sarcastic, but you're dead-on.

    114. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just get a white noise generator. Boodler (soundscape tool available on Linux) does the job nicely.

    115. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      I considered that as well. Only problem? It takes about 15-30 seconds to unload/reload these modules. Which means that during periods of actual usage (when the mouse is unlikely to lock up), I would have to put up with the mouse occasionally stopping in the middle of work. Obviously I could lengthen the cron period to make it less annoying, but that creates the issue of large gaps between when I want to use the mouse and when the cron script reactivates it.

      So... not an effective solution.

      On the bright side, that machine is currently running Knoppix after having been retired from active service. The catch? It's using a COM mouse.

    116. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      If it takes 2 people to explain what your original post meant, one being you and the other being a helpful poster who didn't know what L2 meant any more than I did, then you did a shitty job of communication, period. That doesn't bother me, though.

      Don't "woosh" people for your own failure. That's the part that bothers me.

    117. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Hopefully you're done by then every single time, eh?

    118. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      I've never seen X crash Linux. It may nuke the current console input and trash the video output, but you can still get into the machine. I've SSH'd into machines locked up like that and shut them down gracefully. Linux CAN be salvaged gracefully in the event of almost anything other than a kernel panic or a hardware failure. XP and Vista, they aren't immune to problems, even if you personally haven't had any.

    119. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Tore+S+B · · Score: 1

      I hang out far too much on IRC and I have never seen "l2". l2communicate.

      --
      toresbe
    120. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by pdxp · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Don't "woosh" people for your own failure. That's the part that bothers me.

      Don't mistake your failure to understand, by lack of knowledge or anything else, as a failure to communicate on my part. Over-reacting isn't very useful either.

      And now you know what the fuck WOL means, so you can stop whining.

    121. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      That's offensive. You should have posted as an AC.

      No, really, that's entirely offensive. Nice job.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    122. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      Er, no. You're talking about application packaging dependencies, which have no relevance here. The issue here is what services depend on other services at run time. The method for codifying that *is* an fd.o standard. This is how an fd.o standard header for an initscript looks:

      ### BEGIN INIT INFO
      # Provides: $remote_fs
      # Required-Start: dkms $network
      # Required-Stop: dkms $network
      # Default-Start: 3 4 5
      # Short-Description: Init script for Filesystem in Userspace.
      # Description: Init script for Filesystem in Userspace.
      ### END INIT INFO

      The Provides, Required-Start and Required-Stop lines are the dependency stuff.

    123. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Well if you are running a bunch of maintenance scripts and backup scripts it shouldn't be too hard to be sure that they have all completed before you run the shutdown.
      The simplest way would be to make them all one big script.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    124. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Zibri · · Score: 1

      There seems to be a bug in the linux kernel effecting my laptop. After suspending and then resuming, the fans won't start. So, that leaves me with shutdown -h now every once in a while. You insensitive clod.

    125. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hans Reiser, is that you?

    126. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      heh I'd really like to see a duel with boots, are you allowed to actually wear them or do you have to go at it holding the laces only?

    127. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by JimFive · · Score: 1

      Or, you could detect whether the USB was working before restarting the service. Kludgy solution. Use a USB drive with a file in a specific place, if the cron job can find the file then USB is working and abort, if not restart USB.
      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    128. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Thanks for making that clear, I cried a little for slashdot when I saw that comment.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    129. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Is it just me or is that the only time you see "whoosh" anymore. I support voting it off the internet.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    130. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      With s2disk you don't have to wait for the bios to POST

      what are you talking about? s2disk or any hibernate implimentation will go bios>grub>initram>restore ram image>
      To not post bios you would need to be using advanced acpi features to effectively be using s2ram with the actual image on disk, but i am yet to see a motherboard with that option.
      while compressing your ram image can speed up the time to boot, often if your running a full DE and a web browser,email client & IRC your ram image will be so big that it will be slower (or at least comparable to a cold boot). Besides bios>grub>initram stages account for less than half the boot as disk access is much slower than anything else.

      Sure if you right in the middle of doing something that is using a non-restorable program then s2disk has its usages but otherwise there is no point in using it over shutdown other than filling up you /tmp with useless crap

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    131. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As root:

      modprobe -vr uhci_hcd
      modprobe -v uhci_hcd

    132. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      That would assume that it was a) possible to detect when the device was disabled and/or b) that USB flash drives would be shut down along with the mouse. I didn't have a flash drive at the time, so (b) was right out the window. ;-)

    133. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      As an environmentalist, I would like to point out how you should not burn your house down as it would directly release a lot CO2 and other pollutants into the atmosphere.

      So I guess you'll go and burn your house down now right? Since having a place to live is less important to you than spiting people who annoy you.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    134. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by amRadioHed · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I don't tell them what to do, so they should kindly shut the hell up

      Hmm

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    135. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by gnud · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that the developers deflecting blame would be happy to create a hack around poor hardware, if you like, paid them =)

    136. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Linux developers doing the bulk of the work are paid.

    137. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, yes.

      Aren't most PDAs battery-powered?

    138. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by davidsyes · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The same way they can't sleep without the "soothing fan boyz"? (those who would touch or fawn over their ass, blow and coo-coo-coo on it, and sponge bathe-it.... Wait... wrong thread... (Ducks from congresspersons...)

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    139. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      What i find interesting about USB and other hardware is that on my Gateway Laptop running Mandriva PowerPack 2008.0 (yep, .0, not .1), and Sun xVM (Virtual Box 2.0.2) is that ***vista* sees the audio slider (LED's on a sensor strip that i run my finger over to increase or decrease the audio level) input and also sees the mute button event.

      Yet, Mandriva doesn't and xVM doesn't intercept these event codes and pipe them over to the kernel or audio related code.

      To be fair, though, a later version of Mdva (maybe Free /Spring 2008.1) DOES. I tried it, but didn't like the package and other settings so I rolled back to PCLlinuxOS 2007 on my other hard drive. But, since that drive died (is dying with some 5,000 errors the last time i ran S.M.A.R.T. drive utility), i pressed into service another disk, with a fresh install of the magazine-based Mandriva PowerPack. Maybe i have to run one or two of those for-Linux key/led binaries?

      But, for any who are still not convinced, xVM is great. I did have to (in my case) uninstall the older stuff, and I am not sure that that Add-Ons are supposed to show as 2.0.0 (which is what i see, vice my expectation of 2.0.2), but the desktop auto-resolution changes as i stretch the window containerizing vista.

      As for pre-loading the desktop in the background, i would have thought that idea would have been tried, oh, like 4 years ago. After all, IIRC, that was what windows was doing, and IIRC, there was boo and hiss right here on /. about that, with some comments talking about security risks of preloading a desktop, not knowing which account to preload, etc...

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    140. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Jorophose · · Score: 1

      I hear hibernation on Linux is the same as shutting down. But I don't know if it's supported by everything, and all I have to go by is the fact that you can unplug the machine safely if it's in hibernation...

      I shutdown my computer at night. Some of us have to sleep. Waste of power, too, especially in the summer. (the air coming out of it is cold all year round, so no point in actually using the excess heat to help heat up a room...)

    141. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      "Real Dolls don't need any power."

      Sez who? Sez you?

      Butt, the reBOUND at the power of the HIPS of the source doing the thrusting. But, if you want the doll with glowing eyes, get the model with regenerative humping module. Whirring/purring motor sold separately. The gel-leaking model has variable flow...

      I imagine these make great sexercising machines. Avoid the MechWarrior model. She's a THRILLER and a KILLER!

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    142. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by davidsyes · · Score: 3, Funny

      Is there a pre-.... position missing here?

      I'm trying to figure:

      Some people hibernate IN their computers at night.

      Some people hibernate ON their computers at night.

      Some people hibernate UNDER their computers at night.

      Some people hibernate WITH their computers at night.

      Is there a Borg in the house?

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    143. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by vtcodger · · Score: 2, Funny

      ***They threw in enough fixes till it roughly worked on Windows and then it was considered good enough to ship.***

      Yep, that's the zen of USB. In the 1990s there was a competing school of thought that said you ship after three months whether it works on Windows or not.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    144. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      "Uh, laptops have sleep mode and suspend. I can't imagine why anybody would ever shutdown a laptop unless they were going on vacation and not bringing it along. Or selling it, maybe."

      Well, he is smart to shut it down before bagging it. After all, depending upon the components in the hardware, it may be VERY undesirable to have the OS or suspend/hibernate software decide to poll things or wake up, only to fail to resume suspend/hibernate, and thus end up VERY hot in the bag. I had that happen to me, and it was worrisome for a while. Could be DEADLY to the hardware, not unlike staying in a hot room with a heater one, and and failing to drink water, crack the window...

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    145. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unless your box is actually doing something useful overnight, you're wasting a lot of power leaving it switched on all the time. Never mind the tree-hugger angle, that's costing you money.

      We've had various low power/sleep/hibernate modes available for _years_ now, I think we should work on getting those features working more reliably under Linux than telling users to change their ways to suit Linux's lack of progress. For that matter, just change the fucking boot process already, see every other modern OS for examples. Solaris, Mac OS X, Vista.. and I'm sure there are others who also moved on from crusty linear execution of shell scripts.
      This is typical Linux-speak.. "It's not broke/missing, you should change."

      Go ask someone with a Mac what his boot time is. "You mean you turn yours off?"
      Try hibernating a Mac laptop. Don't know how? Close lid. Wait less than 5 seconds for blinky light. Unplug power and rip out battery. Yes, it hibernates that quick, and it's automatic.
      iMacs, desktop systems mind you, default to standby mode after 10 minutes idle. It's even smart enough to not standby a system that's streaming music or sharing files, it'll just standby when the connections are closed. OS X's suspend/resume is the most reliable out there. True, it's because of the tight integration with Apple hardware, that's what you pay for. Linux and Microsoft are at a slight disadvantage, but that's the open PC market for you, love it or hate it.

      Apple has paid particular attention to this area, but you might even learn a thing or two by looking at Vista's power saving modes. Also, Solaris has a nice streamlined boot process and replaced much of their old init stuff, you might want to check that out.

      The Linux community can't just tell it's users to change any more, there are many alternatives, and I wouldn't say anyone is asleep at the wheel anymore. It's not just Linux vs. big sleeping giant Microsoft anymore like many of you thought around 2000. There's much more out there than Windows, and even that improves leaps and bounds every generation. Linux has hurt many traditional UNIX systems, and I can think of a big one that isn't going to (and doesn't have to) cave in to Linux. Than there's Apple, which frankly, Linux can't hold a freaking candle to, but anyone who really wants Linux to succeed on the desktop needs to pay close attention to them.

      However, people aren't logical. People tend to place more emphasis on time spent waiting for the system to boot than a lot of other bottlenecks. You can argue about the reasons for this, it's an interesting psychological debate, but the fact is that it's true. Boot speed has a big psychological effect on how fast people think a system is. So, it's a good idea to optimize it.

      Logic, schmogic, are you going to let every other system outperform Linux (in the eyes of the users, or however you want to put it) because you think your users have an illogical desire for a faster booting system? Are you trying to cleverly say you're right, users are wrong, but you'll appease them anyway? Yah, that's a nice twist on "customers are always right." The customer is wrong, but I'll do it anyway because they're stupid. That's a winning attitude. This is why Linux has so much trouble.

    146. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ViperAFK · · Score: 1

      I have torrents to seed.

    147. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      Sure, but why couldn't that be extended to list the required libs as well? This way, a robust boot manager could also use this information in some way. When you think about it, it would be like a central metadata file for that specific program instead of having to hunt and peck in four different directories for the information.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    148. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by g-san · · Score: 1

      It happens to be incredibly useful when you are writing an article about boot times. You know how many times they had to boot? It was originally an article about changing the login window graphic.

      Seriously, when you start hacking up your kernel to get a silly winmodem to work you appreciate any work someone has already done for you to get your system to boot faster. Or at least I would have...

    149. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by kesuki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and sometimes, the motherboard bios itself loads buggy tables when it 'detects' linux rather than using the same tables it uses for windows. causing all manner of stability problems and issues. some companies just don't care if their motherboard runs linux, they might even be taking money to make linux look bad from microsoft.

    150. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he does, that means he is probably management. Mod him down.

    151. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by beav007 · · Score: 1

      It's not called the Untested Slapdash Bolt-on for no reason...

    152. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Enahs · · Score: 1

      I also shut down my machines. Whether it's my work machine, my laptop, or my desktop machine, it's either power down or software suspend (also known as "hibernate" to Windows folk)

      I don't understand why people are so determined to waste power. What, are people afraid the power company execs aren't being paid enough?

      --
      Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
    153. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us run Linux on Dell cooktops, ahem, laptops

    154. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      Saving 30 seconds for whole hours of needless power consumption is irresponsible for the environment.

      1) Fuck the environment. My computer is powered by a nuclear power plant; in other words, clean energy.

      2) Life is short, and when I need to do something right quick in a hurry, 30 seconds can be a lifetime. And after a few years, those 30 seconds add up to quite some time spent sitting idly on front of a computer waiting for it to boot.

      3) It only costs a few bucks extra per month to keep the computer running 24/7. I only turn off the monitor when I'm done. The computer is nowhere near the biggest power expense in my building. The biggest would be the four 1000W metal halide lights in the shop area, followed by the welder, then the air conditioner/electric heater.

      4) What effect does it have on the environment when my hard drives fail earlier than normal because of me constantly starting and stopping the computer? It is much easier on mechanical components for them to run constantly.

    155. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the longer it stays on, the more dust it pulls in, and the more wear and tear you put on your components. This is 2008, and computers still have moving parts.

    156. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there some way you could shove your head into a meat grinder before the next "faster booting" story? And maybe take a few of your "we never boot, we're too special" friends?

      Not that it annoys me to read your moronic drivel, I'm just asking for the novelty of a "faster booting" thread without any "you just don't understand not booting" twaddle.

    157. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Grayswan · · Score: 1

      ...do the cellphone and PDA act as seconds?

      That would make it a dual duel.

      --
      If you open your mind too wide, people will throw trash in it.
    158. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to the death, to the pain.

      WRONG. Your ears you keep and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, "Dear God! What is that thing," will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever.

    159. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Laptops, netbooks and casual linux users benefit from fast boot. I also have a few Linux server I wish would reboot a little faster 8) but thats usually application load and setups rather than the OS starting.

    160. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      I've got an HP Tablet I use linux on and it has annoying bug in the ACPI that means the CPU speed is wrongly reported following a reboot unless you remove external power and eject the battery for a few seconds. Then when you boot you have to run the cpufreq commands again to set the speed up properly. Grrr. It's been fixed in other HP laptops of similar class already, like the non tablet version of the laptop I have but not the TC4400!! Argh!

    161. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by setagllib · · Score: 1

      I have an old Dell Latitude C800 with its docking unit (2 PCI gigabit network cards :D) as my central server for similar purposes, plus a VPN concentrator and J2EE application server. It runs between 6 and 10 watts and has about 6 hours of battery life. Runs Debian Etch, will run Debian Lenny when that's done. Best core network device ever.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    162. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ubersolid · · Score: 1

      It is useful, if you have a laptop running Linux, and haven't got around to tweak the powersettings, also known as suspend to RAM ;-). For the record, Linux Mint boots faster than resuming som from hibernation, at least on my laptop. Servers don't need to reboot, Desktops yes, if you shut it down when not using it, also saves some on the electric bill.

    163. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by awrowe · · Score: 1

      Motherboard made by foxconn?

      --
      A.I. Research. The peculiar science in which we know the question and we know the answer, but can't show the working
    164. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Dilaudid · · Score: 1

      Some people want to boot into windows (useful for gaming - vmware doesn't work too well for that). I shut down my laptop to save battery - the hibernate function doesn't always work.

    165. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >since I apparently cannot communicate well enough to achieve the communication-worthiness of a piece of feces.

      The first step is to admit that you have a problem. We wish you well on your journey.

    166. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by aug24 · · Score: 1

      Really?

      I closed my macbook without turning it off before I last moved house, and didn't reopen it till the ADSL was sorted - about six weeks later. Still had more than two-thirds battery - probably roughly what it had when I shut it.

      My XP machine at work turns off the monitor after three minutes or so of inactivity, and reduces its power usage to zero or nearly zero a few minutes later by suspending itself. As it takes much less time to resume than to boot, I'd be willing to bet that the power used to shut down and reboot is similar to the power consumed overnight in suspended mode.

      Technology overtook your point a few years ago.

      Justin.

      --
      You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
    167. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Mine is ASUS M2N. I'm the GP poster... or GGP poster... whatever. The issue is that the USB fails (not just the mouse) after the system's gone to screen-saver mode (not sleep). A ps/2 mouse works OK, and I'm using a PS/2 converter for the USB mouse, and that works OK (except the mouse doesn't work too well, so I've been using a mouse that doesn't work with the converter).

      So USB works. Then it stops working. All I'm saying is that, as an "end user," this is a pretty serious problem and I don't think you can blame the hardware (since it works at first).

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    168. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      No... read my original comment. It works on Linux when I first boot up; it fails after the computer is idle for some time. It's not a "heat" issue or anything, it's only after idle... I can use it for hours with no problem; then I go have lunch or something, and it's stuck when I get back. Or, I can use it for ten minutes, leave for an hour, and when I come back it's stuck...

      It's directly related to the computer being idle - perhaps something with the screen saver; it's set to NOT sleep, only blank the screen after some time.

      It's OBVIOUSLY a Linux problem.

      I'm not berating Linux... as I said, I use it nearly 100% of the time... the laptop runs great, my Boxx at work runs great, my desktop at home usually runs great except for this one thing.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    169. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Yeah... I had wireless. I went back to ps/2 (including an adapter for a USB mouse), but that really sucked as my wireless stuff is gathering dust, now.

      My wired mouse developed a double-click problem (keeps double clicking when I only single click, which has causes all sorts of problems), so I tried my laptops little wired mouse, but it won't work with the ps/2 adapter.

      Just sucks. Hopefully some of the other suggestions will get me back on track and I'll be able to go back to wireless, but the point is I have to reboot often; and even if this works, I still power down at night. However, the boot time of Linux is probably last on my list of things that need to be "fixed."

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    170. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You lose the uptime penis wars.

    171. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Abstrackt · · Score: 1

      I have computerless fans. =(

      --
      They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
    172. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      The thing is, even when you are indeed helping solve whatever problem you choose to participate in, in reality the design of those projects is to take advantage of the unused cycles of a PC while doing its "regular" scheduled work. That is, to maximize the usage of the PC.

      The design of these distributed computing projects is intended to solve some research problem. They do not exist to create a use for spare CPU cycles, that's just a marketing gimmick to get them free computing power. I wouldn't be surprised if my Mac Mini and PS3 were fairly competitive with supercomputers in terms of ommph-per-watt, so I can't see any good reason not to leave them on doing useful work.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    173. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by runep · · Score: 1

      The trick here is to make a wrapper for xscreensaver (or whichever screensaver you're using) that reloads the modules when the screensaver exists.

    174. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      It's possible that the issue was ignored because it was caused by poor USB implementations.
      I'd guess that you are right. I have a bunch of older HP machines that I have been running under Linux since Fedora Core 2 without USB problems. These machines are about 5 years old now.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    175. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      What about if you work late one night, though? Do the scripts check to make sure no one is logged in and then run? Actually, that's the only sane way I can see to deal with them...

    176. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by dylan_- · · Score: 1

      No... read my original comment. It works on Linux when I first boot up; it fails after the computer is idle for some time....It's OBVIOUSLY a Linux problem.

      I did read your original comment, and I stand by mine. If you don't believe me find out who is responsible for usb on Linux, and email them with your make of motherboard...see what they have to say.

      I don't know the particulars, but I can at least give you a hypothetical scenario how a buggy usb implementation could cause what you're seeing:

      The usb ports should not shut down after an idle period (or at least, should come back up).
      The usb implementation on the motherboard dies if it's left idle too long (this is the bug).
      Windows keeps checking the usb ports (not in the spec, but ok to do), so they never go idle. Therefore, it works fine on Windows.
      Linux doesn't keep checking the usb ports (no reason why it should, if the spec is followed) so they die if you don't touch your mouse (or whatever) for a while.
      They only checked it worked with Windows.

      There. No problem with Windows or Linux, but a buggy usb implementation produces what you're seeing. I'd like to restate that this is just a hypothetical, but I remain convinced that is is *some* kind of bug with the board. As I said before, email the Linux usb folk if you really want the particulars.

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    177. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by supernova_hq · · Score: 1

      Actually, 95% of my reboots consist of booting into winblows to play my games. I know there is wine and virtual machines (both of which I do use), but my graphics driver sucks in windows, and games are much nicer with an FPS > 30...

    178. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Therefore, on average, turning off a computer each night will shorten its lifespan.

      Life span isn't a problem for computers. >90% of them end up going to the land fill in perfect working order.

      Turning your computer off for a night will save about as much energy as your car uses while driving 200-300 meters.

      So get rid of your car too. It's ridiculously inefficient.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    179. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by adelgado · · Score: 1

      OK, now THAT'S trying hard for a joke...

    180. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ZerdZerd · · Score: 1

      A true geek wouldn't sleep at night. That's what the day is for!

      --
      I'm not insane! My mother had me tested.
    181. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by ZerdZerd · · Score: 1

      I would like to have a computer that shuts down and gets back up in the blink of an eye.
      Think of all the power I could save if the computer was off every time I blink my eyes!

      --
      I'm not insane! My mother had me tested.
    182. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by beav007 · · Score: 1

      That version of the acronym has been floating around since Windows 95.

      Now, get off my lawn!

    183. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Jarik_Tentsu · · Score: 1

      There's that, but what about boot times of devices for other uses?

      Media PCs, car PCs, etc etc.

      ~Jarik

    184. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Than there's Apple, which frankly, Linux can't hold a freaking candle to

      Linux is so underrated it's not funny Debian + Compiz FTW

    185. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by spiki · · Score: 0

      We've had various low power/sleep/hibernate modes available for _years_ now, I think we should work on getting those features working more reliably under Linux than telling users to change their ways to suit Linux's lack of progress. For that matter, just change the fucking boot process already, see every other modern OS for examples. Solaris, Mac OS X, Vista.. and I'm sure there are others who also moved on from crusty linear execution of shell scripts.

      Basis of your post is just wrong...

      Suspend/hibernating functions in Linux may not be as good "out of the box" as for Windows and Mac OS X but it definitely works well (especially if you're not clueless).

      The various "boot speed optimizations" projects are doing their work and have been doing it in the past few years. Every now and then we see another high profile distribution doing serious work in that field.

      Logic, schmogic, are you going to let every other system outperform Linux (in the eyes of the users, or however you want to put it) because you think your users have an illogical desire for a faster booting system?

      Have you EVER timed boot progress of Solaris? You'd be surprised how much faster Linux on the same hardware with same services boots. (not that I really care about that extra minute).

      Have you EVER tried booting Asus eeePC with their Xandros Linux and then booting the Win XP on it? You'd be surprised that Linux boots at least 3 times faster.

      --
      I sell frozen yogurt which i call frogurt
    186. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by djh101010 · · Score: 1

      I wasn't trying to provide a useful answer, I wasn't responding to someone asking a question. I was _asking_ the question of why something I do on servers once a year or so, and on my home machine every few weeks, matters that much? I'd rather get a 2% improvement in something that goes on all the time, than a 90% improvement on something I rarely do. Maybe others reboot linux machines more often than I do so this matters but, seems to me, there's better places to optimize.

    187. Re:Interesting but how useful, really? by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I was responding the the dipstick that referenced child pr0n. Not you.

      Confused? Sorry....

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  2. her? by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 5, Funny

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type her password.

    A female Linux user?!? You can compile and install Gentoo while waiting for that to happen. : p

    --
    This guy's the limit!
    1. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      A female Linux user?!? You can compile and install Gentoo while waiting for that to happen. : p

      Hey! I thought I was a real woman (and people with your point of view were extinct by now)

      --
      laura.

    2. Re:her? by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, come off with the PC policing! Do you actually expect us to pretend that there is an equal distribution of males to females in the geek world of obscure Linux distros? No one's saying that there aren't ANY women into Linux, just that using the feminine pronoun is a little disconcerting in a specific area that is represented by a male to female ratio of at least 9:1.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    3. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you actually expect us to pretend that there is an equal distribution of males to females in the geek world of obscure Linux distros?

      Of course not, we all know things are not so; but jokes like the above feel really bad (btw., they also do not help getting more women into *nix)

      --
      laura

    4. Re:her? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Actually my wife uses Linux. So yes a Slashdot user that is married to a woman that uses Linux.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:her? by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      A female Linux user?!? You can compile and install Gentoo while waiting for that to happen. : p

      My wife is a Linux user.

      You insensitive clod ;-)

    6. Re:her? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Anonymous Coward is a woman?!?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:her? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Hey! I thought I was a real woman (and people with your point of view were extinct by now)

      --
      laura.

      Pics or you didn't happen.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    8. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, yeah, we anonymous cowards are all girls here.

      --
      laura2.

    9. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Don't be silly, the only "one" that should feel bad about it is "Linux" ;-)

      IOW: if this is to be taken as a critique, of course it's a critique on Linux (system/community), not on women.

    10. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A female Linux user?!? You can compile and install Gentoo while waiting for that to happen. : p

      Speaking of Gentoo, it has the ability to parallel execution of initscripts. It's a side effect of getting rid of the /etc/rc#.d/[SK]##... nonsense. Seriously, most distros' init is like old BASIC: using numbers to determine order should be considered harmful. Use dependency analysis instead. Crib off the source for 'make' if you have to. Or crib off Gentoo; it's GPL'd, for crying out loud.

      Hey! I thought I was a real woman (and people with your point of view were extinct by now)

      --
      laura.

      Here in America, we have the Second Amendment, if you feel like hurrying along some extinctions. ^_-

    11. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A female Linux user?!? You can compile and install Gentoo while waiting for that to happen. : p

      Hey! I thought I was a real woman (and people with your point of view were extinct by now)

      --
      laura.

      A/S/L???

    12. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure you are, Anonymous Cowardess Laura. I'm a 21 yo hot blond chick posting this reply in konqueror.

      --
      candy.

    13. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your laptop's...err..."wife's" name?

    14. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My fiancé both uses Linux and reads Slashdot. Will the wonders ever cease?

    15. Re:her? by u38cg · · Score: 1

      I'm still waiting for the meteorite...

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    16. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people with this "point of view" are exercising something I like to call 'humor'. It does require the Y chromosome for full expression and comprehension, however, so don't feel bad.

    17. Re:her? by Linzer · · Score: 1

      Speaking of Gentoo, it has the ability to parallel execution of initscripts.

      Dear AC, I can't do much but urge you to have a look at TFA... it does mention parallel init, although the optimizations it describes came after parallel init was implemented.

      --
      Gravitation is a theory, not a fact.
    18. Re:her? by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      My wife not only uses Linux but thought that gOS wasn't man enough for her and asked me for the DVD so she could install openSUSE 11.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    19. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. We just speak English.

      Doing away with the masculine bias of generic pronouns is cool and all, but switching to the opposite gender is not the answer.

    20. Re:her? by Inner_Child · · Score: 1

      Of course! AC is user #666, women are evil, it all works out!

      --
      Today is red jello day - all workers must eat all of their red jello. Failure to comply will result in five demerits.
    21. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At first I thought you were just some sweaty, hairy 47-year old virgin living in his mom's basement. Then you let loose with the over-reaction and hyper-sensitive emotions. So we stand corrected; there is at least one girl on Slashdot.

    22. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, come off with the PC policing!

      And you drop the redneck defensiveness.

      No one's saying that there aren't ANY women into Linux...

      Actually, "gEvil (beta)"'s joke was based on precisely that idea.

      ...just that using the feminine pronoun is a little disconcerting in a specific area that is represented by a male to female ratio of at least 9:1.

      "Disconcerting"? Seriously? When discussing a generic person that could be either male or female, the choice of pronoun is arbitrary. Who really cares if the ratio is 9:1. A 10% chance of the user being female still means it's perfectly valid to use a feminine pronoun for a hypothetical user. Get over it.

    23. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are no girls on the internets.

      4chan says it, so it must be true. :-D

    24. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice job raping a meme there.

      While your response was funny, the truly correct response would have been:

      TITS OR GTFO!!1!

      (and my captcha was "firmer")

    25. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually my wife uses Linux. So yes a Slashdot user that is married to a woman that uses Linux.

      Wow, I know Linux runs on toasters, but I didn't know it was powering some adult toys.

    26. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She is using Mandriva actually :-) so I do not need to compile...

    27. Re:her? by Azuma+Hazuki · · Score: 1
      I *am* a female Linux user--say it with me now--you insensitive clod!

      And I actually do happen to run Gentoo (and Arch, and Debian here and there).

      - Marissa

      --
      ~Eien no Inori wo Sasagete~ Searching for my Hatsumi...
    28. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whoop whoop... possible female detected... initiate dialogue procedure...

      HAY BABY!

      • Wanna fsck?
      • Can I insert my floppy?
      • Can I mount your partition?
      • Can I probe your port?
      • Can I connect to your socket?
      • Can I seed your randomizer?
      • Wanna finger my handle?
      • Can I toggle your button?
      • Wanna feel my hard drive?
      • Wanna have some upgraded RAM?
      • Want some head on your sector?

      [After-action report: Nerd drone 1337.4 successfully initiated contact with suspected female but received a kinetic impact where it megahertz immediately before contact was broken off. It is believed possible that an actual female Linux user was found, but the form of approach used by our drones may be countereffective towards the goal of ultimately confirming such a find and retrieving her for further study. We recommend revising the dialogue routine used by our drones. We also recommend equipping our drones with chocolate arrays ("See's" brand tested as most likely to be effective) and, if costs permit, alcoholic beverages. - Perpetual Newbie (still don't have an account), Assistant Lead Researcher of the Search for Female Nerds Project (SFNP), Linux User Social Laboratories]

    29. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (and people with your point of view were extinct by now)

      Not yet, but they have suitably low breeding possibilities.

    30. Re:her? by shrikel · · Score: 1
      No one's saying that there aren't ANY women into Linux

      Actually, that's exactly what the gp is saying.

      --
      Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
    31. Re:her? by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

      Exaggeration of course, being the fundamental tool of humor.

      --
      I Browse at +4 Flamebait

      Open Source Sysadmin

    32. Re:her? by shiftless · · Score: 1

      I think what is most disconcerting is the use of the female pronoun, period. The male pronoun is common convention, and using the female pronoun just screams "look at me, I'm not a sexist, I promise!!" I wish the males of this society would grow a pair of balls and stand up to this PC nonsense.

    33. Re:her? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      "Actually, 'gEvil (beta)''s joke was based on precisely that idea."

      Yeah, and that's why it's called a "joke."

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    34. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a girl Gentoo user, it's just that I was born male, see.

    35. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey! I thought I was a real woman

      that was your first mistake

      --some fat guy

    36. Re:her? by Rysc · · Score: 1

      The choice of the pronoun is not arbitrary.

      In English by convention, tradition and in some cases prescription the male pronoun is used when the gender is unknown. You can say this is sexist if you like, but to me it is simple: "him" is male or unknown, "her" is female.

      If someone says her when the gender is unknown this is *usually* because the speaker believes that saying him is sexist, or that it doesn't matter, or thinks that this somehow promotes feminism, or helps women, or something of that nature. The use of "her" for gender unknown is a deliberate choice with an agenda.

      If someone say "him" when the gender is unknown it usually does not indicate that person's views, except to say that he (notice: not she) is not an extremist engaged in a personal campaign using questionable tactics. You can say the structure of our society and language is transparently, subconsciously sexist, but I don't really care.

      I, personally, would favor the introduction of gender neutral singular pronouns. Simply replacing him with her for the sake of promoting feminism is not advantageous. The only problem is that it's hard to direct the evolution of English in any serious way.

      Until such time as a genuine neutral word enters the language using he/him will be correct.

      --
      I want my Cowboyneal
    37. Re:her? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for Laura to type her password.

      Fixed that for you

  3. howto? by debatem1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I see what they're getting at but not how to achieve similar gains. Anybody out there feel like putting together a slightly more practical guide?

    1. Re:howto? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Step 1: get your root fs on a flash drive.

      My Mythbuntu box gets to desktop faster than my TV switches on. That's fast enough for me.

      On the other hand, my desktop pc is so slow in boot that my monitor is switched on before I even get to the grub prompt (2s timeout). It takes only a trip to the fridge and back to get to my login prompt. What does annoy me is the time it takes Gnome to get from login to usable desktop (which is why I use e17: 3s).

  4. Great.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...so now I need a sex change to run Linux. Sheesh!

  5. I couldn't care less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am sure both Mandriva users will be very happy.

  6. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Silicon+Jedi · · Score: 1

    Proper English is "his password" Apparently you've forgotten too. Their is plural.

  7. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Parag2k3 · · Score: 1

    For a grammar nazi, you're making quite an elementary mistake. "User" is a singular noun and needs a singular pronoun to go with it. "Their" is a plural pronoun. Using "his", "her", or "his/her" would be correct in this sentence.

  8. Laptops by Joe_NoOne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, it helps if it's installed on a laptop or on old hardware.

    Also it goes to quicker recovery time in case of outages. Coming from the Solaris world before they had journaling UFS filesystem it could take hours to FSCK a large partition before the OS would come up. On a production system that is a big deal.

    1. Re:Laptops by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      ``Also it goes to quicker recovery time in case of outages. Coming from the Solaris world before they had journaling UFS filesystem it could take hours to FSCK a large partition before the OS would come up.''

      And now I have reiserfs, which fscks really quickly, after which the system spends two hours checking quota. :-(

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  9. Prefetch by siyavash · · Score: 1

    Hm... prefetch, anyone?

  10. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by neuromanc3r · · Score: 1

    Really? English is not my first language, so my intuition may be wrong, but since it basically replaces "the user's" (singular!), "his" or "her" make more sense to me than "their".

  11. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by gclef · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The use of "they" as a singular pronoun is by no means universally accepted.

  12. It's not Linux that's slow by sbryant · · Score: 3, Interesting

    On my systems, it's the BIOS that takes a very large chunk of the overall boot time. As far as it goes, I think the Core2 machine takes about the same amount of time to start loading the OS as the old 486 used to.

    Having an x86_64 architecture is nice, but why oh why are we still lumbered with that legacy piece of you-know-what? I think I want a Mac Mini now, just because of that...!

    -- Steve

    1. Re:It's not Linux that's slow by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Agree. Since Vista SP1 supports EFI boot now, maybe in a few years most consumer computers will switch to EFI instead of BIOS.

      Meantime, I wish Coreboot (formerly LinuxBIOS) worked on more motherboards. :-(

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    2. Re:It's not Linux that's slow by BloodyIron · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      We know what?

      Try again please.

    3. Re:It's not Linux that's slow by BloodyIron · · Score: 1

      face palm, please disregard last message.

      somehow reading it 3 times before posting just isn't enough sometimes...

    4. Re:It's not Linux that's slow by Locklin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Too bad coreboot doesn't run on any of my motherboards. Imagine having a busybox terminal ready to go before the LCD monitor powers up.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
  13. Grammar Nazi needs to go back to Nazi Training by halcyon1234 · · Score: 1

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type their password."

    Thanks for playing, but you're wrong:

    Each student is singular -- the is instead of are proves it -- so the colloquial their (a plural) doesn't agree with the verb, and is frowned on by traditionalists. It's common enough in speech -- "A friend of mine called me." "What did they say?" -- but, although many writers have used it (see examples from Jane Austen), it often sets off alarm bells among the fussier readers of formal writing today.

    The correct answer is "there is no answer". There's plenty of "right" ways that have either fallen out of favor (such as using "type one's password"), or that get repetitive and annoying ("type his' or her's password")

    I suggest brushing up on your Grammar Youth Movement handbook at http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/Writing/s.html#sexist

    1. Re:Grammar Nazi needs to go back to Nazi Training by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      Normally I'm not a grammar Nazi, but I can't help pointing out grammar mistakes in posts correcting the grammar of others.

      His and her are already possessive. His' and her's are incorrect - neither contain apostrophes, and even without an apostrophe, "hers password" is incorrect.

      --
      Redundancy is good And also good.
    2. Re:Grammar Nazi needs to go back to Nazi Training by halcyon1234 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but I'm not a grammar Nazi. I'm a member of the grammar underground railroad. While I fight for grammar, it's not always within my means (nor is it my intention) to perfectly adhere to it. I correct injustices, but cannot build a new nation. I hide participles in my attic lest they end up hanging, but I must sometimes drop apostrophes less their noise tip off everyone's location.

  14. POST by riffraff · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My problem is not the linux distro coming up to a login prompt, but the server getting past all the cards prompts to get to the normal boot. What with scsi controller cards having their own bios, the system bios, and miscellaneous others, it can take longer to get past the post then to boot linux. The HP DL360 G5's we have can take almost 30 seconds just to starting booting the linux kernel.

    1. Re:POST by nschubach · · Score: 1

      "Waiting for drive controller to become available..."

      Ugh, I know the feeling.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  15. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by John+Jamieson · · Score: 1

    One thing to remember when you are on /. (and the internet in general) is OVER HALF THE WORLD DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH AS A FIRST LANGUAGE. (yes, I am yelling at the few who can't seem to comprehend this)

    Whose fault is it that English is not their first language?
    Whose fault is it that the education system sucked?
    Whose fault is it that they have a learning disability that makes them suck at grammar or spelling?
    Is it bad that they are more interested in earning some cash to "feed the kids", or "spend quality time with the family" than go back to school to brush up on Grammar.

    I am amazed at the high quality of the writing here considering peoples background, and the fact they are trying to whip off these messages and get back to the day job(or whatever).

  16. password by neaorin · · Score: 2, Funny

    "The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type her password"

    My password is just the letter 'a'. Like in 'apple'. No luck for me then.

    1. Re:password by Taibhsear · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      OT but had to reply.
      My stepfather growing up wasn't too bright and would constantly blame me for him screwing up the computer and putting passwords on the login. So I set up the computer with the letter 'a' as the password to mess with him. Got reamed out so I changed it. Took off the password but left it set up to have to actually login. He still couldn't get in. Seriously, who the hell doesn't try the enter button as the first attempt to login if they don't know the password? Took his dumb ass 10 minutes before I told him just to hit the enter button. Boy was he salty...

    2. Re:password by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's amazing! I use the same combination on my luggage!

  17. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by zappepcs · · Score: 1

    And from your link:

    Generic they has indeterminate number:

            * There's not a man I meet but doth salute me / As if I were their well-acquainted friend â" Shakespeare, The Comedy of Errors, Act IV, Scene 3 (1594)

    (Their can be understood equally well as referring to each man considered one at a time, or to all of them collectively.)[citation needed]

    In this example, *his* would have been appropriate as gender is implied in the context of the writing, whereas 'user' is generic, and NOT gender specific. Using the pronoun 'her' instead of 'his' is as sexually discriminatory as using simply 'his' has been judged to be in the past. Therefore, I submit that 'their' is appropriate as user refers to one of any number of possible users, and not a single user of specific gender.

  18. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    For a grammar nazi, you're making quite an elementary mistake. "User" is a singular noun and needs a singular pronoun to go with it. "Their" is a plural pronoun. Using "his", "her", or "his/her" would be correct in this sentence.

    And for a grammar-nazi nazi you're making an quite an elementary mistake.

    From, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/their

    "Long before the use of generic he was condemned as sexist, the pronouns they, their, and them were used in educated speech and in all but the most formal writing to refer to indefinite pronouns and to singular nouns of general personal reference, probably because such nouns are often not felt to be exclusively singular: If anyone calls, tell them I'll be back at six. Everyone began looking for their books at once. Such use is not a recent development, nor is it a mark of ignorance. Shakespeare, Swift, Shelley, Scott, and Dickens, as well as many other English and American writers, have used they and its forms to refer to singular antecedents."

  19. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    No, you are wrong. It should read:

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type his password."

    The masculine pronoun is the proper default for referencing people of unknown gender. And, that is regardless what the PC people say.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  20. for the energy cost/environmentally conscious.. by nephridium · · Score: 1

    Why not simply use sleep or hibernation (bind i to the power button)? All modern hardware/OSes support it. No need to load all drivers and background apps every single time. Actually hibernation saves time and energy due to shorter boot times.

    Just be sure not to use crappy software/hardware that doesn't support it.

    --


    And when you gaze long enough into the code, the code will also gaze into you.
    1. Re:for the energy cost/environmentally conscious.. by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      "Actually hibernation saves time and energy due to shorter boot times."
      Explanation needed. hibernation may save a few seconds (if you compress the image on suspend) but otherwise a clean boot may well be faster as less disk reads are needed.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
  21. ACPI whitelist? by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just be sure not to use crappy software/hardware that doesn't support [sleep].

    And pay multiple times over for return shipping when I find that one or more components of my computer don't come out of sleep properly. Or do you know of a good whitelist of makes and models of commodity PC hardware that have the fewest defects in their ACPI implementation?

    1. Re:ACPI whitelist? by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      If you insist on limiting yourself to commodity hardware you're going to have a lot of problems to solve. Why not pay someone to do that for you and just buy a system? Macs running OS X sleep properly. I bet HPs running Windows and Dells running Ubuntu do too.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    2. Re:ACPI whitelist? by init100 · · Score: 1

      Macs running OS X sleep properly.

      Except I have had instances where my MacBook Pro has been almost non-functional after coming out of a weekend-long sleep. The screen was flickering severely, and everything on the screen had a shade of violet added to their normal colors. In additions, some other things did not work correctly, e.g. IIRC I had to hold the power button to turn the system off.

      I like my MacBook Pro, but the "It Just Works" claim is not always true.

    3. Re:ACPI whitelist? by nephridium · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I see your point. Apparently ACPI industry support is not where it should be.

      I guess if it's impossible to go to the shop and test it beforehand there's no way of knowing. That being said, the hardware that I use (Intel/Asus mainboards, nvidia/ati/amd/onboard vga, notebooks by Fujitsu) has had no issues, with one exception which was a buggy nvidia vga driver remedied by using another driver version.

      But I agree - an ACPI whitelist showing all supported hardware for the current OSes would be nice. Of course it would be even nicer if people would just adhere to the standard ;)

      --


      And when you gaze long enough into the code, the code will also gaze into you.
  22. Nice Try! by BigAssRat · · Score: 4, Funny

    NICE try "Steve" or is it "Mr. Jobs"? Attempting to infiltrate our "Linux discussion" with your MAC hype!!

  23. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Annymouse+Cowherd · · Score: 1

    No, that would imply the user is male. his/her password is most proper.

  24. Broken ACPI by tepples · · Score: 1

    Has no one here heard of hibernate or sleep?

    It appears Acer's testers haven't. My cousin tells me his Acer Aspire One subnotebook running Windows XP Home comes out of sleep with some hardware not properly awake.

  25. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Jekler · · Score: 1

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type the password."

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type the correct password."

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type a password."

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type a correct password."

    All of those achieve grammatical correctness while maintaining gender neutrality. I believe gender neutrality is the message the OGN (original grammar nazi) was trying to get across.

  26. Linux laptops by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

    I have a linux laptop that I tote with me. I generally like to power-down when moving place-to-place to reduce HD damage if I jostle it too much.

  27. why bother with booting? by FranTaylor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why not just get hibernate to work well and do that?

    There is a lot of CPU chewed in the booting process and you can only do so much to speed it up.

    1. Re:why bother with booting? by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Why not just get hibernate to work well and do that?

      I agree with the parent. In the end, playing with init too much is a bit like poking a beehive. I think it would be a lot easier to create a hibernate algorithm that calculates the ideal compression level to get the best hibernate performance. If you have a fast cpu and a slow hard drive, high compression is ideal. If you have a slow cpu and a fast hard drive, low compression is ideal.

      If people are so worried about boot time and power saving, why don't they just use suspend? It uses practically no power and the power it does use likely offsets the power used when booting/shutting down constantly...but you don't have to wait.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    2. Re:why bother with booting? by chromatic · · Score: 1

      Why not just get hibernate to work well and do that?

      How much memory do you have in your system? What's the maximum IO throughput of your hard drive? Compare that to the amount of data necessary to transfer to boot a system.

    3. Re:why bother with booting? by grotgrot · · Score: 1

      Why not just get hibernate to work well and do that?

      On my machine it is quicker to do a fresh boot, login and start apps than it is to do a resume from hibernate with those same set of apps running. From what I am able to tell the underlying causes are:

      • Resume kernel reruns most detection routines again, but does so slower than a regular boot. For example I have a USB TV digitizer device that has a v4l video interface and USB audio interface. During boot it takes about a second or two between the video interface being enumerated and the audio interface being enumerated. During resume there is often a 20 or more second delay between them. The desktop is not shown until all this enumeration is completed.
      • Disk cache is not saved during hibernate. (I am using Ubuntu which uses the standard kernel hibernate. Tuxonice does save them.) A normal boot does a readahead. The resume is slower because of the disk cache slowly getting repopulated.
      • Linux is chronically slow reading from swap on resume. Using vmstat the fastest rate of swapin I see is 4MB per second. My disk does 70MB/s when doing a sequential read and random reads when doing other things are always way faster than 4MB/s. I can usually speed up my resumes by doing swapoff -a ; swapon -a (it helps having 6GB of RAM :-)
    4. Re:why bother with booting? by Trogre · · Score: 1

      The bootcharts I have here tell me that the boot process is I/O bound, not CPU bound.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    5. Re:why bother with booting? by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      I own 8 linux machines (most of them in a freshman physics lab at the school where I teach), from a variety of OEMs. Not a single one hibernates correctly. From what I've heard, most hardware manufacturers simply don't do a good enough job of documenting the registers publicly, so it's impossible for the linux kernel/driver developers to get hibernation to work.

    6. Re:why bother with booting? by ErroneousBee · · Score: 1

      Its worse than that, some hardware manufacturers go out of their way to create a buggy DSDT table (Like the Foxcomm debacle of late) or are using the MS supplied DSDT compiler (which lies about warnings and errors) or are just plain incompetant.

      Added to which, the ACPI spec was originally designed to be hard to implement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Configuration_and_Power_Interface#Criticism

      Its pretty common for Windows to start getting suspend resume glitches as the OS gets updated. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=windows+resume+problem

      Ive had the best luck with suspend/resume from Asus equipment, although I expect they have had "the visit" and will start shipping crap at any moment.

      --
      **TODO** Steal someone elses sig.
    7. Re:why bother with booting? by mollymoo · · Score: 1

      You might want to look at USB persist. It saves the state of USB devices through suspend/hibernate rather than re-enumerating them. It works for keeping USB flash drives mounted, it might work for USB TV devices too. Search the intertubes for "SET_USB_PERSIST". I don't know if it's compiled in to the default Ubuntu kernels.

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    8. Re:why bother with booting? by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      If people are so worried about boot time and power saving, why don't they just use suspend?

      I've had mixed results with suspend (this is on Ubuntu). I've actually gotten it to work perfectly on my desktop and laptop, but only after disabling some of the fancy graphics features. Previously I've had problems with the hardware waking up properly (especially video), but it seems to work correctly with the latest release.

      If you can get it to work properly, it's an excellent compromise between power usage and up-time.

      --
      AccountKiller
  28. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  29. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    For a Grammar Nazi you got your grammar wrong.

    When the gender is not known, and the subject is singular, the correct pronoun is "his." "Their" only works if the subject is plural.

  30. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by jcaplan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would invoke the "Humpty Dumpty Principle" (from Carrol's "Through the Looking Glass"). Quoting: 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

    "Their" is in common usage to indicate his/her. It has the advantage of being less awkward to say and looks less strange on the page. It also has the benefit of annoying grammarians, who seem to believe that they subscribe to the One True Way.

    Their has been in common usage for a possessive of indeterminate gender since before grammarians decided to declare rules for the English language based on their (sexist) biases and preferences. Wikipedia provides a mind-numbingly detailed description of this history and grammatical rules surrounding it, but this usage dates to the 1300's.

    Here are some fun quotes that Wikipedia gathered showing usage of they and their as singular by famous authors:

    -- Arise; one knocks. / ... / Hark, how they knock! - Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet

    -- 'Tis meet that some more audience than a mother, since nature makes them partial, should o'erhear the speech. - Shakespeare, Hamlet

    -- I would have everybody marry if they can do it properly. - Austen, Mansfield Park (1814)

    -- That's always your way, Maimâ"always sailing in to help somebody before they're hurt. - Mark Twain, Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (1884)

    So this is not some modern invention of feminists or the ignorant, but simply usage that is not favored by self-appointed grammar police. (At least in France the grammar police are official and given the duty of writing the rules on behalf of that nation. It seems that there, too, people go on speaking without regard to the official rules.)

    -Jon

  31. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

    Most proper, but saying "his password" is also acceptable.

    --
    "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  32. This is useful for Linux Instances by tezza · · Score: 1

    Amazon EC2 images (et alia) would find this useful.

    They will come online faster.

    --
    [% slash_sig_val.text %]
  33. They Really Spent YEARS on this? by ilikenwf · · Score: 1, Insightful

    After post, I have my Archlinux based laptop booting in 11-14sec consistently. I have added a daemon or two since this bootchart, but until then I was at 12 seconds every boot. Now it's still only 14sec. I don't see how these guys call their bootcharts fast. Their athlon xp 3400 system (closest to my 3200 x2) booting in 22 secs is supposed to be fast.

    1. Re:They Really Spent YEARS on this? by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      ...because it's booting a much wider range of services appropriate for a generic distribution installation, not (as you are) an extremely minimal set of services entirely tailored to your use.

      Do you really think you could release your exact configuration to the general public for use by everyone, and it would work fine?

      It's very easy to get a fast boot on a specific system for a certain individual's needs. It doesn't bear any relation to optimizing the generic case.

  34. Username security by AJNeufeld · · Score: 1

    If they are preloading desktop environment files, while waiting for the user to type in a password, that can allow people to guess usernames!

    Back in the days of yore, you could tell if you typed in a valid username by how long it took to validate the login attempt. A valid user with invalid password was reported immediately; an invalid user took longer. This was changed to always take a constant time, to prevent username guessing attacks.

    With preloading desktop environment files, if a user is sitting at the machine, they could type in a username, and listen for disk activity. No activity? Try a different username!

    And yes, I know, if the machine is not in a secure location, it isn't secure. But the preload behaviour for valid usernames may open up other attack vectors. For example, if the user environment files are on NFS, a flurry of network activity may signal a correctly guessed username.

  35. American, are we? by pinkfloydhomer · · Score: 1

    You know, some of us try to lower our CO2 footprint by not using power needlessly.

    1. Re:American, are we? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Yes I am. And I also shut down my PC. You might be surprised but I will bet that there are people from where ever you are from that keep theirs running 24/7 as well.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:American, are we? by djh101010 · · Score: 1

      What an arrogant, useless response. Tell me exactly how I'm using my laptop? Tell me how my servers are used? You don't know? Well then, I guess your assumptions are baseless. Free hint: hibernate doesn't require a reboot. And computers in datacenters, stay turned on.

  36. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Over half the world" - Technically accurate, I suppose.

    Are you American? A slightly knowledgeable American but definitely an American.

    About 5% of the world's population speak English as a 1st language.

  37. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Therefore, I submit that 'their' is appropriate as user refers to one of any number of possible users, and not a single user of specific gender.

    Well *I* submit that you're a pedantic douchebag who brings nothing to the top-level topic of this board.

    Fuck you.

  38. Laptop by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

    I shut my laptop down when I'm not going to use it for a while, instead of putting it into suspend. On battery less boot time means more time to actually use the machine, so I'm interested.

    On the other hand, my battery should probably be replaced as I can only get about an hour out of it on a single charge.

    --
    Saying "I'll probably get modded down for this" in a post is the best way to get it modded up.
  39. Typo in Summary by Liath · · Score: 1

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type her password."

    What's a "her" ?

    1. Re:Typo in Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something like me. Very sexy.

    2. Re:Typo in Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      mom?

  40. Sounds like broken USB autosuspend by Sits · · Score: 3, Informative

    On Linux usb ports can be powered down to save power. However it turns out that many USB devices are broken and can't cope with being powered down. Now the question comes up what version of Linux are you using? If it's something older than 6 months then there's a good chance this has been fixed (the list of things allowed to be powered down has gone from a blacklist to a whitelist of large categories). See this commit talking about the kernel no longer powering anything down bar USB hubs for some more details.

    A very short term band aid might be to disable usb autosuspend on that device via /sys/.

    1. Re:Sounds like broken USB autosuspend by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link, I will definitely try it out. I use Ubuntu (8.04) and have updates enabled, so I pretty much have the latest. Perhaps 8.10, which I guess is RSN, will fix it.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
  41. I don't suspend to disk... by jopsen · · Score: 1

    I don't suspend to disk because it usually sucks... NetworkManager fails, wireless complains... And somehow some videos causes X to crash beyond what restart of X fixes... Probably a really bad graphics driver... Or maybe I haven't configured it to reload the graphics driver correctly. I did that using config files in earlier versions to enable compiz after wakeup..

    When I used SuSE 10.0 (Which I dumbed when their package manager broke ever more) suspend to disk worked just fine... Now I run Ubuntu and I know I ought to run something less buggy..

    But suspend to ram and disk isn't the most stable feature... Sometimes it just really sucks... Nevertheless it's actually one of the most important features.

    1. Re:I don't suspend to disk... by Enderandrew · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      openSUSE 11 is pretty incredible, and light years better than 10. You should check it out.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  42. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Xtifr · · Score: 1

    The masculine pronoun is the proper default

    Wrong! "Their" as a singular pronoun is not improper (and there are scholars who are fans of, e.g. Jane Austen who will slap you silly for suggesting that it is). These days, it is, at best, informal, and many consider it colloquial and ugly, but no one who actually studies the language would suggest that it's improper. Awkward, distasteful and best avoided, maybe, but not improper. (Note: middle-school English teachers are not generally considered to be among the set of people who actually study the language.)

    Its use is controversial (to put it mildly), and I don't think anyone would suggest that it should be used in formal writing, but only the ignorant claim that it's wrong. (See also: split infinitive.)

  43. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Silicon+Jedi · · Score: 1

    Wikipedia is a load of rubbish.

  44. Under Linux it's an option by Sits · · Score: 1

    If you want to let the BIOS "know" you can use the platform option in /sys/power/disk. If this is broken you can use shutdown instead. I believe the former effectively uses S4 and may have beneficial results (e.g. faster startup when powering back on, power light pulsing while hibernating/restarting) if it isn't broken.

  45. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

    It suffices for informal situations, such as this one. If you expect me to look very hard for a citation for common rules of grammar (that you yourself acknowledge), you have lofty expectations indeed.

    --
    "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  46. The demonstration Arjan did was on an EeePC 901 by Sits · · Score: 1

    You can see a video of Arjan's EeePC 901 5 second boot on youtube. It's not the 3 seconds you're asking for but it's still somewhat fast right?

    1. Re:The demonstration Arjan did was on an EeePC 901 by djKing · · Score: 1

      That is exactly what I meant! Too cool. Any more info on this project?

      - Peace

      --
      Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
  47. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    No, you stupid fucking idiot. "Their" is a plural pronoun, not a singular pronoun.

    a form of the possessive case of they used as an attributive adjective, before a noun

    "Their" only started being used as a singular pronoun when feminists got their panties in a twist because the the masculine form was also the gender neutral form and felt it was a slight to women.

    Now, shut the fuck up and dig your head out of your ass, moron.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  48. Many modern x86 laptops have faster BIOSes by Sits · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While servers still seem to take hours to get past their BIOSes, modern laptops often have options for skipping the POST and generally taking shortcuts enumerating devices. The EeePC has a "BootBooster" option where it caches BIOSes results to solid state disk so the BIOS finishes in less than a second (rather than 4 or 5). It is so fast it can be a pain when you actually DO want to change a BIOS option!

  49. If someone has physical access to the machine... by Sits · · Score: 1

    ...and wants to do something malicious then I'd worry about something other than not having to guess a correct username. Unless you're using full disk and virtual memory encryption why wouldn't they just boot off a CD/USB key (or possibly take your disk out and put it in another machine)?

  50. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by pbhj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Using the pronoun 'her' instead of 'his' is as sexually discriminatory as using simply 'his' has been judged to be in the past.

    My grammar is terrible, but I do know that 'his' was used as the neutral/unspecified gender pronoun as well as the masculine pronoun (but we tend to use their now, it's what I would use) and that it has nothing to do with negative sexual discrimination.

    Those that think women are denigrated by the use of "his" (eg "If a soldier lays down his arms ...") should really wonder why they think so little of women that they might need the rules of grammar to be changed to promote them.

  51. Re:Lame Dupeness. by AdamWill · · Score: 3, Interesting

    OK, er, you fail. Epically.

    These are completely different types of work. What Arjan is doing is tailoring boot to a specific set of software running on a specific set of hardware, using an entirely legacy-free init system.

    This is nothing at all like what Fred is doing, which is optimizing a legacy boot system for completely generic hardware and software - it has to run on any system, with any set of software available from the Mandriva repositories installed.

    The two types of work are utterly and entirely different.

    For the record, another of our engineers - Claudio Matsuoka - has been working on the *other* type of boot system for several months now. It began as a re-implementation of the 'fastinit' system found in the Xandros distribution on the Eee. This system is called 'finit', and you can find it at http://helllabs.org/finit/ . It is used in Mandriva Mini, our custom edition for netbook OEMs. It pre-dates Arjan's work substantially, or at least the public announcement of it.

  52. Major culprit: modprobe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you read the summary, one culprit is modprobe - for each kernel module loaded at boot time, it scans several hundred Kb of config files.

    I have patches to fix this behaviour of modprobe, which can shave several seconds off boot-time. I submitted them months ago but I think so far the sole maintainer has been too busy.

    Anyone interested, poke me and maybe I'll have another go... .

  53. her password by Eil · · Score: 1

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type her password.

    I once heard someone say that only girls use Fedora, but until now I always figured it was just some kind of snide remark.

  54. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Hucko · · Score: 1

    If you acknowledge the common rules of grammar, you would recognise that 'their' can be used as an impersonal pronoun in cases where the gender is unknown. Less common but also correct is the use of 'one/s' as an impersonal pronoun. As neither suffice all the time we regularly see a case for a new word to cover all impersonal pronoun usage.

    --
    Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
  55. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

    I do recognize those.

    --
    "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  56. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Hucko · · Score: 1

    From your comment I am forced to conclude you are a 'middle'* school English teacher. You are incorrect. 'Their's use as an impersonal pronoun precedes the feminists by a significant amount of time. It was just consider vulgar, unsophisticated.

    * we don't have middle school so I presume it would be equivalent to primary education.

    --
    Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
  57. Another thing we need to speed up: by Trogre · · Score: 1

    /dev/sda1 has not been checked in 60 days. Check forced ... ... /dev/sda1 clean

    That's right, in 2008 the EXT3 filesystem still needs to be offline for a read-only consistency check.

    Unfortunately even with journals one still needs regular fs checks so we can't just tune2fs -i our volumes to make the problem go away.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    1. Re:Another thing we need to speed up: by Trogre · · Score: 1
      gah. Forgot to deal with HTML parsing:

      /dev/sda1 has not been checked in 60 days. Check forced

      ...
      <wait half an hour>
      ...

      /dev/sda1 clean

      That's right, in 2008 the EXT3 filesystem still needs to be offline for a read-only consistency check.

      Unfortunately even with journals one still needs regular fs checks so we can't just tune2fs -i our volumes to make the problem go away.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  58. Another good contribution by Trogre · · Score: 1

    Combine these efforts with IBM's recommended use of Make for startup dependencies, and Fedora's One Second X project and we should have some marked improvements in boot time.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    1. Re:Another good contribution by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      That IBM thing is just about parallel boot, which as I've already explained in another comment, Mandriva has been doing since 2006. Ubuntu and Fedora, at least, also have parallel boot implemented. I'm not sure about SUSE. Doing it via make is a hack job, and no-one actually does it that way these days.

  59. Re:Lame Dupeness. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod parent informative!

  60. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

    It doesn't have to be universally accepted. If it is universally understood that is good enough, which it pretty much is despite the protests of some who don't like it.

    --
    We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  61. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

    No, you stupid fucking idiot. "He" is a singular masculine pronoun, not a gender neutral pronoun.

    See, other people can holler and swear to. It doesn't make them right.

    --
    We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  62. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Xtifr · · Score: 1

    * we don't have middle school

    Really? Where is that? The term is moderately common in the US and nearly universal in the UK. I thought it was widespread in Oz as well, but I can't claim to be fluent in Aussie (or Kiwi). The term "high school" is much more common in the US, but "middle school" is a widely used alternative, and doesn't confuse the Brits, which is why I used the term and why I tend to use it in places where I may have an international audience.

    BTW, thanks for the backup. I probably would have ignored the post as obvious flamebait, but your calm, intelligent reply seems to have done well enough. I should point out, however, that singular-they wasn't really considered vulgar or unsophisticated until sometime in the Nineteenth Century. Before that, it was, at least according to most scholars, considered perfectly appropriate for formal speech, as evidenced by (among many others) that impeccable writer and personal favorite, Jane Austen.

  63. Link to powerpoint presentation by Sits · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here's a poweropint presentation about this work. If you're an LWN subscriber you can you read an article and comments about the 5 second boot presentation at the Linux Plumbers Conference (it will become viewable by all on from the 2nd October 2008). Finally you might be able to test drive some of this work if you are willing to sacrifice a USB key and destroy your existing EeePC install by because Moblin may include this work.

    1. Re:Link to powerpoint presentation by djKing · · Score: 1

      Haven't picked up a netbook yet, as I've been waiting for one that could boot that fast. I'll be keeping an eye on this for sure. Thanks.

      --
      Free as in "the Truth shall set you..."
  64. A related pet-peeve - shutdown/reboot times by JSBiff · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered, why does it take so ridiculously long to reboot a computer? The basic problem seems to be that you want to send every program on the computer a signal to quit (sighup or sigterm or something like that), and those processes then each begin doing things like writing data to disk, closing file descriptors, running destructors to 'properly free' allocated memory, etc.

    Now, here's the thing - yes, programs need 'cleanup' for a reboot, but I think simply writing data to disk and closing files would be much faster than completely shutting down programs, and doing all the *unnecessary* memory cleanup that implies. Yes, filesystems need to be flushed/unmounted, but I think that probably 80 percent of the stuff that happens during a typical computer shutdown or reboot is just unnecessary, particularly doing things like running destructors on complex data structures (like the 800 megs of model, texture, animation, particle effect, sound, and state [e.g. character inventory, stats, etc] data that a game might have loaded in memory, for example). Seems like all you need to do for a shutdown or reboot is send a signal to programs to write data and close files, then when that is finished, umount filesystems, then send the appropriate instructions or interrupts to the CPU to trigger the shutdown/reboot. Who cares if programs don't free() their memory or properly terminate if you are rebooting or shutting down?

    1. Re:A related pet-peeve - shutdown/reboot times by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Several reasons.

      1) There are several ways to restart your machine (man reboot and man shutdown for more information) some will be faster than the others.
      2) Usually, it's a good idea to let a program clean up after itself, especially since leaving file descriptors open or abruptly closing it while it is writing something will damage your data. Programs shutting down are usually just writing their caches and journals to disk. The in-memory doesn't take a stellar amount of time unless you're swapping (and even then, see point 3)
      3) These days (unlike back in the days of DOS and Windows) the kernel handles most if not all memory and disk-related activities including caches. Not flushing caches to disk (which can be large amounts of data depending on the caching strategy) during shutdown will leave you with data that hasn't been written even after the program has shut down. Again, the memory doesn't actively get swiped when free'ed (unless there is a call to zero it out before free or the kernel does it for security reasons) and it doesn't take a large amount of time either.
      4) Most (if not all) non-kernel programs don't know whether you're shutting them down because you will restart or simply because you don't need them. Since that is so, they go through the exact same procedures whether you manually shut them down or you reboot. Leaving zombies on shutdown is not so bad, leaving zombies in a day-to-day environment will eat up your resources very quickly (especially if you're using large amounts of memory)
      5) Most programs like to know whether they were shut down properly or not (see also point 4) especially if they're handling data. If not, they might have to go through self-checks on their data (databases for example) to check the consistency of your data and whether certain things still need to be done (journals), some (like Firefox) like to send their developers a note why the program wasn't shut down properly.
      6) Not every program has the same characteristics, especially the background processes on any system. A lot of those background processes are used for more robust environments than your desktop and have dependencies on each other and thus need to wait for previous systems to shut down. On the other hand, some programs won't shut down until they handled their last call before shut down was called has been handled. A good example would be call center software which doesn't shut down until the last caller has hung up. Some processes in your computer are like call centers and some programs depending on it haven't been written correctly so they don't hang up on shut down but leave the line open until the call center decides it has timed out.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  65. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fair comment, but on the other hand if someone who does speak English as a first language doesn't point out mistakes then how will those people who don't usually speak it ever know?

  66. Pretty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Chicken and egg: as long as it's so slow, people are going to go to great lengths to avoid doing it. (Like, say, leaving it up until a new version arrives. Do you leave your lamps on all night long, but covered, in case you want to use them quickly?)

    The biggest reason to keep your computer running 24/7 is to allow it to be instantly usable. Most people aren't actually making use of those CPU cycles when they're asleep. Computers use power, and make noise.

    This is one of those cases where a big enough quantitative change brings about a qualitative change. Bringing boot time from 240 seconds to 230 seconds is geeky goodness. Bringing boot time down to under 5 seconds brings about a change in how people use their computers.

  67. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by ZERO1ZERO · · Score: 1

    yes, I was going to post the same. Of course, the password is need not be his or her password. It may just be 'a' password. Hell the user may be logging in as someone else. Using his/her (own?) password would be silly.

  68. why "General" keyworld in the title? by anton_kg · · Score: 1

    The article is about Mandriva linux, don't you guys feel the difference?.. Gentoo users should read http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_Speed_up_your_boot_time and http://jolexa.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/gentoo-improve-boot-time/

    1. Re:why "General" keyworld in the title? by AdamWill · · Score: 1

      It means, a general-purpose distro, as opposed to a special-purpose distro tied to a particular piece of hardware, or software configuration.

  69. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Cow+Jones · · Score: 1

    [..] I do know that 'his' was used as the neutral/unspecified gender pronoun as well as the masculine pronoun

    So was "they". The Wikipedia link the OP posted states that "[r]ecognized writers have used they, them, themselves, and their to refer to singular nouns such as one, a person, an individual, and each since the 1300s."

    Those that think women are denigrated by the use of "his" (eg "If a soldier lays down his arms ...") should really wonder why they think so little of women that they might need the rules of grammar to be changed to promote them.

    It's even worse in German (and probably in related languages as well), where the word "man" is used as an indefinite pronoun. It does not have any gender connotations at all, even though it obviously originated in the word "Mann" (man). Nevertheless, in the past ten years some writers have decided that using the pronoun "man" was not gender neutral enough, so they invented replacements with varying degrees of absurdity:

    • "mensch" (meaning "man" as in "human")
    • "man/frau"
    • or just "frau" for texts with a predominantly female readership

    Needless to say, this makes their texts hard to read, and is not widely accepted. In fact, it rather accomplished the opposite of what they aimed for, by creating a strong aversion against gender-neutral speech generally, even in people like me who were open to the idea of a reasonable degree of gender-neutrality (where possible).

    CJ

    --

    Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
  70. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Yawl come right back now ya hear! Meanwhile some of us will be using English instead of whatever has been taught in US schools since Reagan cut the cash and standards.

  71. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Using the pronoun 'her' instead of 'his' is as sexually discriminatory

    No. It is simply misleading and a barrier to communication.

  72. Excess *junk* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been known to butcher the init scripts, there is a TON of stuff in there that doesn't need to be there. (I'm from the slackware days when tampering with init was a fairly normal way to configure a system)

    Also once did linux from scratch, and wrote my own init subsystem from scratch. It's amazing how fast linux can be made to boot when you rip out stiff that doesn't strictly need to be there.

    The whole initialization subsystem is one of the things I really dislike about almost every linux (and freebsd) distribution I've ever seen. WAY too much junk in there.

    You should be able to trace from init down to login: withing about 3 minutes, by just reading the scripts.

  73. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by iminplaya · · Score: 1

    ...you stupid fucking idiot...moron

    You called?

    Yeah! You go girl... Don't let them beat you down just because they're right.

    --
    What?
  74. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Hucko · · Score: 1

    heh, I've obviously only taken note of those that felt it was uncouth before the feminists bandied it around. To answer your question, I'm from North Queensland, Australia. primary school is Prep(atory) - year 7, and high school is years 8 - 12. I presume middle school is a composite of ~ 6 - 8?

    --
    Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
  75. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The use of "they" as a singular pronoun is by no means universally accepted.

    If somebody doesn't accept it, they should just STFU.

  76. Hope this helps! by rts008 · · Score: 1

    In the USA it generally takes one of two forms with the public school systems(note:the number of variations and combinations of Middle School and/or Junior High School for grades 5 through 9 is astounding):

    grades 1 through 5=Elementary School, or in some areas Primary School
    grades 6 and 7=Middle School
    grades 8 and 9=Junior High School (commonly referred to as "Junior High")
    grades 10, 11, and 12=High School

                                or...(as when and where I went to school: southern Maryland-graduated High School in 1976)

    grades 1 through 5=Elementary School
    grades 6, 7, and 8=Middle School
    grades 9 through 12= High School

    BTW, I agree with your reply, and fully endorse it.

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  77. what about doing routine fsck in the background? by Parasome · · Score: 1

    Another time-eater at boot that might be eliminated is the routine fsck e.g. with ext3 filesystems at mount. It's unfortunate when, once in a while, it can take 5 minutes (!) or more to boot for a routine check. Granted, you can esc-abort it (a new feature in newer Ubuntus), change the intervals or switch it off altogether, but (a) Joe user doesn't know how to do that, and (b) the checks shouldn't be abandoned, since they actually make sense. Maybe it would be a good idea to find a way to delay the (routine) checks and somehow perform them in the background when the filesystems are already mounted?

  78. What a topic ... by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    fixed for you all: Think Adam's family ... it!

    The final trick: preloading desktop environment files while waiting for the user to type its password."

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  79. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the gender is not known, and the subject is singular, the correct pronoun is "his." "Their" only works if the subject is plural.

    In case you haven't seen the other comments on this, you should know that you are wrong. To summarize the above and add my own comments:
    1/ Historically 'their' 'they' 'them' have been used in the singular sense over hundreds of years by various well known writers including Shakespere. A few 'grammer authorities' decided relatively recently that this use was wrong, but since their 'authority' is bogus (see 2/) this carries little weight.
    Some of these same 'authorities' would also have told you to never under any circumstances split an infinitive no matter how awkward the result.
    2/ English is defined ultimately by usage; this is a common usage and since it is natural, simple and useful it should be recommended.
    3/ Just because some teacher at your school told you this was wrong doesn't necessarily make it so.
    4/ It's not a question of "PC"; more that using male pronouns exclusively in (say) a work context just sounds really archaic.

  80. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by pbhj · · Score: 1

    Thanks for your perspective on this /auf Deutsch/.

  81. USB fails - irqpoll boot option by andrewd18 · · Score: 1

    I have that problem with my laptop. It was fixed by adding "irqpoll" to the Linux kernel's boot options.

    1. Re:USB fails - irqpoll boot option by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Wow... that may keep the mouse from completely freezing, but it caused everything to pause every few seconds.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    2. Re:USB fails - irqpoll boot option by andrewd18 · · Score: 1

      Eh, it was worth a shot. Apparently it doesn't work on all systems.

    3. Re:USB fails - irqpoll boot option by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Thanks anyway... none of the suggestions worked.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
  82. Complete systems fail it at ACPI too by tepples · · Score: 1

    Why not pay someone to do that for you and just buy a system?

    I bought an Acer Aspire One laptop running Windows XP Home, and my employer bought a Dell desktop. I hibernated both, and both came back without video after filling the progress bar at the bottom of the screen.

  83. Re:OT Grammar Nazi comment by Haeleth · · Score: 1

    I do know that 'his' was used as the neutral/unspecified gender pronoun as well as the masculine pronoun (but we tend to use their now, it's what I would use) and that it has nothing to do with negative sexual discrimination.

    And "nigger" used just to mean "black", with nothing to do with negative racial discrimination. Sadly, language changes, and what was harmless a few hundred years ago can very easily carry a very genuine negative connotation today.

    The simple fact is that "his", today, implies masculine. "Every doctor should know his patients" does, whether you like it or not, imply to most people that the speaker believes that being a doctor is strongly correlated with being male. And most people find that sentences like "every nurse should know his patients" sound, well, subtly wrong. That's because nobody believes that there's a strong correlation between being a nurse and being male.

    Those that think women are denigrated by the use of "his" (eg "If a soldier lays down his arms ...") should really wonder why they think so little of women that they might need the rules of grammar to be changed to promote them.

    Who said anything about promoting women, or changing grammar? The meanings of some words have changed over time, and inclusive language means making sure that you use those words with their modern meanings to describe the modern world, where "he" is no longer a suitable pronoun to describe a soldier or doctor of unspecified gender.

  84. Re:Lame Dupeness. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eh.. No.
    What we (Arjan and Auke)are doing is not "legacy free init system", we're using SysVinit like everyone else....

  85. grub without delay by dfries · · Score: 1

    For the people wanting to speed up their boot time, look at your bootloader. How many seconds is the delay?

    lilo, set timeout to 0, boots without a delay, but hold control when it goes to boot and you can still get to the lilo prompt.

    grub, set timeout to 0 and it boots without a delay and no chance to get to the grub prompt.

    I sent in one patch (subject: [PATCH] hold shift or control to disable timeout even timeout=0), to disable the timeout when control or shift are held, seems the 10 assembly instructions I added to the core was frowned upon as that routine wasn't called in the core, so they had half a point. If I get time I'll rework it again.

  86. What I don't want is what Windows does by cheros · · Score: 1

    The bit I positively hate about Windows is that it pretends to be usable while in reality it is still miles away from it. It boots, you log in and then you get a desktop. If have the nerve to touch anything in the first 3 minutes you extend the time to get a moderately responsive desktop by minutes.

    In the end you have to watch the disk light to get some sort of idea at which point it is, and that's just a relatively normal XP based laptop with all the crud removed.

    And just when you think you can use the box, Windows update pops up telling you that it has found new reasons to reboot and go through it all again..

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.