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Netbook Return Rates Much Higher For Linux Than Windows
ivoras writes "An interview with MSI's director of US Sales, Andy Tung, contains this interesting snippet: "We have done a lot of studies on the return rates and haven't really talked about it much until now. Our internal research has shown that the return of netbooks is higher than regular notebooks, but the main cause of that is Linux. People would love to pay $299 or $399 but they don't know what they get until they open the box. They start playing around with Linux and start realizing that it's not what they are used to. They don't want to spend time to learn it so they bring it back to the store. The return rate is at least four times higher for Linux netbooks than Windows XP netbooks.'"
And are they selling the returned notebooks at a big discount?
Seriously, put some videos on there that explain how to do common tasks. Tasks that are better on linux than on windows. (Like finding/installing cool toys/software/games). Make the videos right there on the desktop. Once consumers find out they can do the things they want, and easily, they will like it.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
I've had two netbooks so far, and on both, the Linux installations sucked. One came with Xandros, the other with SuSE. Both were poorly installed, neither of them updated correctly over the network, and neither of them was properly adapted to the device (screen, keyboard, etc.). If I hadn't been able to install Ubuntu Netbook Remix, I would have returned the machines myself.
RTFA, and unlike the submitter, you'll see that the interviewers point out that MSI offer a poorly configured version of Linux.
I wonder what it would cost someone like Microsoft to have MSI spike the competition.
"Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
Just put them on the top shelf, since the kind of people who obviously don't read the box and think installing Windows hard will be too lazy to reach them.
My eeepc was a whole lot more useful once I got a different distro on it. Average Joe isn't going to feel comfortable installing linux on his own, editing boot records and reconfiguring this and that for three hours before the computer becomes useful. They want to hit a button and have a useful operating system in front of them.
That said, I've bought three eee's, one for me, my brother, and my wife. I've installed ubuntu and configured everything before giving them to the others, and they haven't had a problem since. My wife, who won't use windows because she's not used to it (she grew up with macs), says she likes ubuntu - I suspect her story would be different if she had to spend hours looking up instructions how to install it.
Quiz: True or False -- On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your middle name?
Games! Good one, sir.
3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
Of course the return rate is higher! Linux is NOT READY FOR THE DESKTOP! You can't buy off-the-shelf software for it at Best Buy and it's hard to use. People buy things based on the price tag without doing their research first. Most of the time, they can't even get their microwave oven to stop flashing 12:00. What makes you think they're going to want to read an extremely lengthy linux user manual?
Last time I checked, Apple hardware wasn't running Windows. Yet, they've managed to take a *nix/BSD-derived OS and make it VERY simple and intuitive to use.
If [insert netbook vendor here] Executive staff can't seem to find the value in hiring a COMPETENT *nix admin to create a decent functional disk image worthy of being a Microsoft replacement, or at least as easy to use as OS X for the end user, then I feel NO pity for them.
Bottom line is *nix IS ready for the desktop, and Apple has PROVEN that. Other distros have made a large enough impact to make it to Best Buy shelves as well. Make it intuitive enough, and you don't need a 300-page user manual to figure it out.
And ENOUGH with the flashing 12:00 analogy already! Cripes, even my 8-year old knows how to set the damn time on the microwave. Todays generation of 30 and 40-somethings grew UP with tech, and the younger generation can't live without it.
People don't want to be trained. They want to be sold. The problem with Linux on the consumer desktop is nobody is selling it to them. Apple marketing makes a different machine cool and worth investing the time to learn. Maybe treating the netbook like a web/mail appliance instead of a small computer would help manufacturers do a better job of satisfying the customer. What are some stats from other netbook makers?
MSI's install of linux is a piece of garbage. They barely made it run and it's junk. now they are bitching that their half assed work causes returns?
How come the ASUS eee flys off shelves where it's available and people that own them that are not techies love them in their linux install?
Oh wait, ASUS did not half ass the linux install. Ahhhh.
It must be linux's fault then.
The story headline needs to be changed... "MSI does crappy work again and bitches about it shifting blame to XXX."
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The OS may be no more difficult to learn (for everyday use; if you're a power user, though, XP -> Vista is still easier than XP -> Ubuntu), but then you also have the added learning curve of replacing every single application except possibly Firefox, if they weren't using IE before.
Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
rather than blaming the users who "don't want to spend time to learn it". Customers buy your product because they need it, but few would learn it the hard way without well-organized, easy-to-follow documentation. Invest in supporting and documenting your own product and users will be happier, not angrier.
Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
Alright, couple things. Yes. It is true that the vast majority of the general public don't want to learn how a computer works.
But I see some fault by manufacturers too. Couple things.
Stop shipping laptops with relatively unknown "Lets evade the MS Tax" Linux distros with little support or documentation. This whole "Get a Linux computer so we can pirate Windows" thing has gotta stop.
From now on, contract with the BIG BOYS in Linux, Red Hat, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Suse. No more gOS. no more *insert Bizzare distro no one has ever heard of here* distro.
Make sure all your drivers for your cards work and can survive things like Kernel patches.
Stop shipping broken configurations. If my Screen can support 1200x800, it better not be set to 1024x768.
Stop Advertising Linux as "Almost Windows" or "Sort of Windows" - Advertise Linux as - Linux. Put a big Penguin sign up next to the row of Linux Laptops, and say "These are Linux Laptops." and if they are
Install Wine on Linux Laptops. Show customers that they can take their Windows applications with them where Applicable.
Have you ever run an apt-get dist-upgrade against the out-of-the-box ASUS repositories? They had some real blunders in those updates including tools stop working, icons disappearing, etc. I haven't bothered to patch for a while so hopefully they've got their not half-assed Linux install sorted out.
I'll probably install Ubuntu on mine when I stop using it for a kitchen computer / photo viewer.
Back in the '80s and early '90s, people coped perfectly well with competing computers and operating systems. Sure, an Amiga was a bit different from an Atari, which was a bit different from a PC, which was a bit different from a Mac, which was a bit different from an Archimedes... but so what? People coped, just like they cope with the way every washing machine or DVD player today has a different interface. When you started using computers, you became computer literate, just like everyone's more or less washing-machine-literate and DVD-player-literate. And once you're literate in a technology, you can learn to use any form of it relatively easily.
What the Windows monoculture has done is to destroy computer literacy among most users. Now, instead of learning to use a computer, people are trained to use Microsoft Windows. Instead of learning about launching applications and using word processors, they're trained to click on the big button at the bottom left of the screen that says "start", then to click where it says "Microsoft Word". And so as soon as that button turns into a picture of a foot at the top left of the screen, and the icon they're looking for says "Word Processor", they're left bewildered and uncomfortable.
Of course, this has now bitten Microsoft too: it's one reason why Vista and Office 2007 are so unpopular. (Semantics nazis: does that count as irony?)
I bought a linux version of the Acer Aspire One, and I loved it at first. It was an RPM based distribution using XFCE, and although I'm used to aptitude-based package management, I've got no qualms with using yum.
However, I bloody well couldn't, could I? The manufacturers had installed some of their own RPM packages before sending out the laptops, many of which had dependencies on other packages. I couldn't bloody update my system because these packages weren't on the central RPM repositories for fedora etc., and there were countless conflicts. Their proprietry RPMs required firefox, so I couldn't update firefox because that would require interfacing with these RPMs, which weren't there. I couldn't update ANY fucking packages, my distribution was useless, unless I forced removals and forced installs of new RPMs, but then all the conflicts had to be sorted out manually.
I've ended up putting Xubuntu on it with XFCE, but it's far less responsive because you loose the intelligent optimisation that Acer etc, put into it, and installing it requires making bootable keydrives etc., and loads of optimisations to the SSD, swap etc.
Why the hell the manufacturers don't just use Ubuntu (I've heard Dell have the sense too, at least), I do not know.
Stupid.
It is probably "power users" who are returning these. Not people who just want their web browser to work and write letters with the word processor and little else.
Not geeks who would know what they want in terms of OSes.
People who know Windows, and MS Office well, but do not actually understand at an abstract level that can be re-applied to other OSes and apps. From people with a memorised sequence of muse clicks for hundreds of tasks, to people who write apps in VBA and Excel.
While he lacks eloquence and tact, he tells the truth. In fact, I just spent two days helping a neighbor prepare her soon-to-be-published manuscript in OO.org, after her windows machine died. Initially I loaned her a laptop with Ubuntu on it, showed her how to start OO.org, and told her to call me if she had any trouble. This poor woman ( a typical non-tech user) was nearly in tears over not being able to find how to change text fonts and autoformat settings. And in OO.org, those settings are RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE. They're not labeled in Hindi or anything...
Now, this neighbor is actually quite an intelligent and insightful person, but as I've witnessed before, give her a computer and she transforms into a complete moron. Yet she uses one daily! I suspect the great majority of users are like that; they learned once, long ago, how to do something on windows and now they are done learning. If they can't see the same icons and menus in the same places they simply give up, complaining bitterly that it's the computer's fault. They may be perfectly reasonable and intelligent people away from the computer, but while using one they are, for all intents and purposes, completely fucking stupid. It's frustrating.
So no, I'm not a bit surprised that lots of people return Linux netbooks. I see how they are.
Caveat Utilitor
My wife just purchased an HP mini-note. I've dabbled a bit with Ubuntu but Suse was new to me. The system comes completely uncustomized for easy use by the general consumer. For instance, it still has the OS set to search the optical drive for installable software...but there is NO OPTICAL drive in the computer. NONE of the online repositories for software are already added to the OS. There is absolutely NO documentation included with the system to help a new Windows XP -> Linux individual navigate their self around or teach them how to do something as simple as installing a piece of software or adding a software repository. Yeah, Google is there but to the Average Joe, you shouldn't have to search Google for every simple answer and then risk messing up your computer if you input a typo into one of your Terminal commands.
Just to straighten things out a bit, I recommend you try a few of these games:
FPSes:
Strategy (mixing real-time and turn-based):
Others:
Those are all packages I found with a quick `aptitude search "~i~sGames"; that is, these are games that are packaged and trivially easy to install straight out of the box.
You can of course also install wine and create bottles for Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo II if you have those games [or you can buy them at blizzard.com], among many others (so I hear).
Or you can install DosBox and play your old dos games (One Must Fall is the win). Or you can install uae (Amiga), vice (Commodore: Pets, VIC-20, 64, 128, CBM-II, PLUS/4), pscx (PlayStation), xmess (Atari 400/800/2600, Lynx, NES, SNES, GameBoy, Sega Master System, Sega Megadrive) or mame. Apologies to all emulators that I left out.
I'm not saying that Linux is just as great a gaming OS as windows. But claiming that there are next to no good games that are runnable on linux is simply being uninformed. And the cowsay bit, that was just making fun ;)
Yes, I read the article. Yes, I know that they're looking at Ubuntu. Regardless of what it looks like, Ubuntu is still Linux. People who can't find the Word icon will still be unhappy.
No, saving a little money is not enough reason for most Windows users to switch.
Look, I'm not bashing Linux. I used it for a decade. But it is naive to expect people to willingly throw away their investment in Windows (time and money) simply to learn an OS that allows them to keep on doing the same things.
If someone is happy using, say, Word and Photoshop, what's attractive in hearing that Linux can't run Word and Photoshop but they can do pretty much the same things with Openoffice and Gimp, once they take the time to learn how to use them? Why should they do that when they can keep on using Word and Photoshop?
Like I said, i used Linux for ten years. I switched to Apple a few years ago because I wanted wireless to work. Now, I need to buy new hardware. I could easily save a few bucks and run Linux on something. But, why should I? I like Apple software, I'm accustomed to using it. Everything I did in Linux I can do on a Mac, often with greater ease and reliability. Why should I care if Linux allows me to do the same things once I learn how to use it and a bunch of new programs? Where's the incentive? There are tens of millions of Windows users thinking the same thing.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I thought ASUS users just replaced their Linux with Windows in most cases. I have not seen MSI's Linux installation, but the ASUS version of Xandros on my daughter's Eee PC 4G is an unusable piece of crap. The most basic things don't work properly. A few of the snags I've run into:
Never seen such a mess before. If I were not an experienced Linux user myself, I'd have returned it. If MSI's is even worse than that, then wow... just wow.
The OS may be no more difficult to learn (for everyday use; if you're a power user, though, XP -> Vista is still easier than XP -> Ubuntu),
I call BS on that statement.
I am a power user and in high level tech/server support, and one thing about power users is this: Interface is irrelevant.XP -> Ubuntu is equally as easy as XP-> Vista, Vista -> MacOS and MacOS -> Ubuntu.
What you are forgetting is that XP -> Anything Linux you could have a choice of Gnome, KDE, XFCE or a tonne of more obscure ones like IceWM or Enlightenment.
I have tried all of these above, I give tech support on all of these (OS'es and Environments) and once you teach a user where to click to do what they want they become drones again and to open mail click here, to edit a document click there and so on and so on endlessly. Users tend to "forget" the actual environment that they are in and learn an almost "muscle memory" type of sequence of mouse-gestures and keyboard clicks to get done what they want.
I got my wife to use Ubuntu, and she uses it every-day. I could've gotten her to use anything else.
The real pain comes in the "under the skin" things like adding your computer to a network, setting up your wireless and other essentially one-time housekeeping tasks that need to be done (setting up wireless on a laptop is more than a one-time task, but migrating around wireless networks with notebooks is an equal pain regardless of OS)
Then we get to actually installing the software and getting it to work with the actual hardware.Now immediately both you and I can point to areas where Windows has greater driver support from vendors than Linux - but ask yourself this: How many users ever set up their own hardware? Being a tech manager with an IT team I get the very strong impression that regardless of OS a user will call on us to install a new screencard, PCI/USB wifi network card or whatever the case might be. Thus user-wise the hardware issue has largely been negated by user incompetence. Remember though that users need only worry about using the computer - IT geeks like those who's job it is to fix computers are supposed to worry about the actual hardware, and again for a power user/tech support it is less than an issue than you think.
but then you also have the added learning curve of replacing every single application except possibly Firefox, if they weren't using IE before.
Again I need to point to the error of your statement.
1) Have you looked at the awesome cockup that is the Office 2007 interface?
I have countless users who phone me regularly to ask "where is the file meny", "where do I name the file when I (eventually found how to) save as" and so on.
2) Have you tried bringing an Office 2007 setup into an existing officespace?
Try telling a user over the phone how to install the patch that allows him to open .docx documents in Office 2003 OR explain why the Office 2007 user suddenly needs to save his files in a different type every-time-he-saves-it, or why it says "compatibility mode" when he opens a .doc file. Or why he can no longer open his old e-mails since he started using Outlook 2007 and his .pst file is no longer supported. Older versions of .pst files are a pain to recover.
3) A personal tale from first-hand experience.
We use a custom in house program developed in MS Access. Me, being a Linux user cannot use this program since I cannot open the database in Linux. That goes for every Office 2007 user in our company. The database needs to be converted to an Office 2007 compatible format before they can use it - and when that is done the ones using office 2003 can no longer use it since now it is incompatible with their version of office. We will only be able to get Office 2003 licenses for a short time still before 2k3 goes the way of XP. Thus very soon we will be forced to up
Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity
that is more true than many realize. in my humble opinion 90% of users are nothing more than monkeys clicking keys in order to get the desired result. The same applies to cars. all they truly know is that you put a funny smelling liquid into it, turn a key, and wiggle the steering wheel around while pressing buttons on the floor to make it go and stop. It isn't complicated to understand the thing is they don't want to know.
it is the difference between memorizing a method and understanding the concept. you can set me down in front of any computer and I can learn the ins and outs of it in hours, (longer with more command line options). After a while some people stop learning, and everything after that point is a struggle.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
So they returned it because they expected Windows but got Linux and not because it was difficult to learn for them? I think not, read the interview.
Oh, they should blame the install, which was poor? Exactly how?
Oh, power users are the cause...the ones that probably have hacked copies of Windows waiting around to install over Linux (as you say, that's what they wanted...)
I think you are simply trying to divert the fact that Linux is not some kind of magical operating system that every user should embrace as the panacea to Windows. That's not the case and everyone knows it.
Right now the ONLY logical reasons to move to a Linux based PC is 1) cost and 2) boot time when run in minimalist mode. Otherwise an XP machine is far better for the availability of apps and consistency of experience.
Well, here is the thing. I think most people understand that a computer has become an appliance. It's a machine to gather information, publish information, and a simple communications tool. Most people have come to know windows because it's loaded on every factory made box everywhere. I think that people want to spend time doing the things they do on a computer and not to learn about the machine or software they are using. It's all about being productive. *nix is a vastly more powerful OS in the hands of someone who knows what to do with it. The vast majority of people going to Wal-Mart to buy a computer don't care about this. The only way to make this customer happy is to emulate what they do know (outlook express, IE, Menu's, Office). If you can't do this 80% of the people buying your machine are going to be some what unhappy. Will some people learn a new way to do things, yes. However, even after they learn this still might not be enough as these are the same people who will likely become frustrated and have someone load windows back on their machine. If equipment manufacturers want to move away from windows they will need to provide a distro that looks and feels like windows and I haven't seen any distro that has accomplished this.
Or, it's the case of people having other, more interesting things to spend their time learning.
I used to be a computer geek, but now stuff like OS' bore the living shit out of me.
Yes. and the end result of this anti-intellectualism is an inability
to back up your own data or keep your computer safe from malware.
In some misguided rush to avoid being a "computer geek" you can't even
use the "appliance" beyond its most rudimentary features (even in Windows).
Nevermind "the difficulty of Linux", drones like you can't even be bothered
to fully utilize Windows. The go whining to the local Windows or Linux guru
to be bailed out or coddled.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Or, it's the case of people having other, more interesting things to spend their time learning. I used to be a computer geek, but now stuff like OS' bore the living shit out of me. I have -zero- interest in dicking around with a computer any more than I have to. I have a lot more interesting things to do ,like running my business, fixing up my house, studying art, whatever. I wouldn't bother with Linux because to me, it's a complete and total waste of my time.
Hi, Nice point. I am sending you a file called FUNNY_SEXY_PAYPAL_KEYLOGGER.exe, and you are so going to love it. It's like, well, I won't spoil the fun. Let me just say it: it will drive you nuts!
Then please refrain from using a computer.
You know the first thing I did when I first got a digital camera? I learned photography. Not just "how to turn the camera on", but aperture, shutter speeds, exposure, rules of composition, etc. Yeah, I "could" have let the camera handle most of that stuff, but I know that unless I know what's it doing on the background even on the Auto modes, I have no right to expect something other than shitty results.
I simply can't understand why people don't do the same with computers... I mean, do you go to a guitar store, buy a $600 guitar, and then return it the next day because you didn't sound like Jimi Hendrix? I seriously hope not.
No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
Or, it's the case of people having other, more interesting things to spend their time learning. I used to be a computer geek, but now stuff like OS' bore the living shit out of me. I have -zero- interest in dicking around with a computer any more than I have to. I have a lot more interesting things to do ,like running my business, fixing up my house, studying art, whatever. I wouldn't bother with Linux because to me, it's a complete and total waste of my time.
Hm, this is one of the reasons why I don't do free tech support anymore. Yes people are free to choose what they learn, but if they choose not to learn basic concepts they become a burden to others. I have absolutely no problem with charging them money to support this behavior as this sort of thing is the root of all kinds of trouble that could otherwise be easily avoided.
Regardless of what OS you use you still need to know something about it. Well, either that or you pay someone to fix your stuff regularly, or maybe you just replace the thing whenever the trojans cause it to become an anchor. Frankly, the fact that MS markets to people who think this way probably does more to damage their software's rep than the fact that so much of it is buggy.
Take the bail-out for instance. Like that old saying implies it may not have been corruption so much as the side effect of having too many 'post-turtles' in the wrong places.
Right now the ONLY logical reasons to move to a Linux based PC is 1) cost and 2) boot time when run in minimalist mode. Otherwise an XP machine is far better for the availability of apps and consistency of experience.
Oh, and software that gets faster with time (see KDE 4 vs. KDE 3). And better hardware support (dead serious). And a nicer desktop (got anything to compare to Compiz yet?). And a smaller footprint (I'm using less than half of the 1GB of RAM on the Eee PC I'm typing this on right now). And a software library that makes Windows look niche (I'll put apt-get against VersionTracker any day of the week). And a more consistent interface (see: those screenshots of 20 different widget toolkits on a single Windows screen).
Yeah, besides being a better, faster, cheaper, prettier system with better 3rd-party support, I don't see much point in using Linux over XP. Oh, and double that for Vista.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
You give me my point? I wasn't trying to make a point at all, just stating the simple fact that the current (=stable) version of OpenOffice doesn't support .docx out of the box. I know very well that Office 2k3 doesn't support it either.
But if you insist on me trying to make a point, I can restate my personal experience that I haven't been able to get the official conversion tool up and running - though admittedly I haven't spent much time with it, and it's probably just a hickup in the (unofficial) Arch package and big distros such as Ubuntu probably pack their own (working) binaries.
OK, so now you've got me to rant. Look, I've been using Linux since 1995. I like it and it fits my needs very well - I haven't booted Windows on my main machine for about a year now, except for a VirtualBox XP image I use to check whether my Javascript works under IE. But from an average desktop user POV I wouldn't say Linux is still up to shape when compared to Windows. It's much better than a few years ago, but still not great.
Drivers. What can I say, we've all been there. I have an Atheros wireless card, and if I were an average user on a Fedora I'd be screwed. I'm also screwed on Arch because the driver for my TI card reader doesn't read XD cards. Both are very common in laptops. Guess I'm lucky because I own an Intel video card. Worked great under Ubuntu, Compiz and all that - until you discover that XV video doesn't play all that great. But you can fix it, if you switch to the EXA rendering mode instead of XAA and use a greedy migration heuristic. Simple, huh?
Codecs. People would kinda like to play their DVDs and stuff occassionally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Add an additional repo and download it. Doesn't work.
Visual impression. I agree that it's much improved now - when I just think of fonts from say, Fedora Core 4... oh boy (and that wasn't too long ago). KDE looks pretty good now, Crystal Clear is nice, and KDE4 is a hot mamma (a buggy hot mamma, but still a hot mamma). Still the quality of the interface is not consistent accross apps.
Category: misc stuff. My big personal gripe is the NetworkManager - that thing has a mind of its own. Not to mention that the last time I used it, you couldn't even disconnect from a network with it. Why why why why don't distros replace it with wicd or any other sane alternative?
And finally, there is the point of niche apps that has been raised in this thread. CAD users, video artists, music artists. I'm a hobby musician, and Linux doesn't cut it - my $400 M-Audio rig only works with Windows and Mac, sorry. I have to keep a separate box for that.
So anyhow, I'm not just sure about the year of the Linux desktop. I don't know if it's ever going to happen. It might be an evolution rather than a revolution, as Linux gets gradually better and more user-friendly - Shuttleworths recent efforts are surely to be applauded. But somehow I feel that it's just going to be about marketing - you know, an iLinux or something.
Why the heck am I getting into these discussions and rehashing something that's been said a million times by others, I don't know. Please mod me down into oblivion and make me come to my senses
Let's be honest here, though. If all you want is an appliance, Linux isn't any more difficult than Windows. Realistically—and I say this as someone who uses both Windows and Linux—it isn't even that different. Unless, as people above have mentioned, someone has rote memorized how to do (a large number of) specific tasks, the differences aren't worth mentioning. Linux isn't harder than Windows, and it's only different if you're doing "complicated" things (where I've defined "complicated" as things that differ in Windows and Linux ... ). People looking for an appliance—which, I thought, was the point of a netbook—shouldn't notice much of a difference.
The poster mentioned "fixing up [his] house" as an alternate activity with more value. How many "computer geeks" out there who fault people who don't know basic computer operations, don't know how to sweat copper pipe, or replace a light fixture and so don't have the skills to maintain their home?
Your leaking pipes and worn-out light switch don't affect or inconvenience anyone other than you. Fix them at your leisure or not at all; nobody else will bother you about it.
If your computer is part of a botnet spewing spam across the Internet, it's a different class of problem entirely -- it affects thousands of people other than you. In fact, you may not even notice it happening....
I submit that the second is a much larger issue and more important problem than the first.
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!