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Geneticist Claims Human Evolution Is Over

GogglesPisano writes "UK geneticist Steve Jones gave a presentation entitled Human Evolution Is Over. He asserts that human beings have stopped evolving because modern social customs have lowered the age at which human males have offspring, which results in fewer of the mutations necessary to drive evolutionary change. Apparently the fate of our species now depends upon older guys hooking up with younger woman. I, for one, welcome this development."

131 of 857 comments (clear)

  1. How convenient! by rk · · Score: 5, Funny

    Imagine that. Old guy scientist claims that old guys should bag young women. "But, baby, it's scientific!"

    I immediately thought of this:

    General "Buck" Turgidson: Doctor, you mentioned the ratio of ten women to each man. Now, wouldn't that necessitate the abandonment of the so-called monogamous sexual relationship, I mean, as far as men were concerned?

    Dr. Strangelove: Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious... service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.

    Ambassador de Sadesky: I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.

    1. Re:How convenient! by idonthack · · Score: 5, Funny

      MEIN FÜHRER! I CAN WALK!

      --
      Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
    2. Re:How convenient! by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's difficult to see how a geneticist could actually make such an absurd statement. I suspect either there is major misrepresentation going on, or he's about to have his proverbial testicles handed to him by any number of researchers showing that the claim is factually false and conceptually retarded.

      All sorts of species evolve in spite of any particular start or length of reproductive capacity. Since the vast majority of what diversity between members of a population happens during conception, the evolutionary engine is largely fueled at that point.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    3. Re:How convenient! by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As far as I can see, following this "story" from the start in different news reports - it has evolved from "evolution in humans is slowing down" to "evolution has stopped". I expect that in a couple of days the news will be that evolution is slowly reversing...

      As an FYI even the original claim is incorrect as the number of mutations in the population is overall increasing, due to the fact that the effect of natural selection is reduced. If anything we should be worried that the increase in harmful mutations in the general population is going to result in increased birth defects / genetic diseases.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    4. Re:How convenient! by lysergic.acid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      and with ever greater populations and intermingling of cultures, i think it's safe to say the human species has plenty of genetic diversity at the moment.

      there's also no shortage of genetic illnesses and cancers which are the direct results of genetic mutation. heck, people are probably exposed to more carcinogenic influences today than ever in human history. just look at all the mutant three-legged frogs that are turning up here in America.

      biological reproduction is inherently imperfect, thus creates copying errors that introduce genetic mutations. the lack of mutations is not something that we'll ever have to worry about. and i'd argue that it's unethical to try to conceive children after a certain age just as it's unethical for closely related individuals to have children since their children will be at much higher risk of having congenital illnesses or other health problems.

    5. Re:How convenient! by Kleen13 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm sorry... I truly don't mean to post OT, but... "conceptually retarded" Can I use that?

      --
      That sinking feeling deep in your gut when you KNOW you screwed up bad summed up with: {head desk} {head desk}
    6. Re:How convenient! by isBandGeek() · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, at the current rate, with technological advances keep more people alive that wouldn't have otherwise survived (that's a good thing, except in the case of Paris Hilton and her gal pals), genes will not matter as much. Our evolution will certainly slow, and maybe even stop.

      But if anything, mutations should be increasing with all the potential nuclear devices. That should keep the evolution going.

    7. Re:How convenient! by Peeteriz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well yeah, the mechanism by which evolution has always worked is having lots of mutations; and ensuring that the 'faulty' mutations don't reproduce.

      Nowadays our advanced medicine is ensuring that people with many of possible genetic defects are able to live a more or less normal life. It is very good for those people and their relatives; but it does mean that such defects will be becoming much more common in future.

    8. Re:How convenient! by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you mean with genetic engineering then I agree - otherwise I think there is a limit to how much you can fix from the outside, if things are badly broken on the inside. Diabetes and such are liveable, but what if you are missing (broken) an enzyme for making ATP? Or one of the main positioning marker proteins is broken meaning your body parts are all in the wrong places! So at the very least there will be natural selection pressure there.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    9. Re:How convenient! by Whiteox · · Score: 2, Funny

      I expect that in a couple of days the news will be that evolution is slowly reversing...
      DEVO knew that in the 80s.

      The name "Devo" comes "from their concept of 'de-evolution' - the idea that instead of evolving, mankind has actually regressed, as evidenced by the dysfunction and herd mentality of American society."[1]

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devo

      Now we'll ALL know if Darwin was right! :)

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    10. Re:How convenient! by jonaskoelker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And here a few ways one might go about handing him his... wrongness.

      There was a time where the life expectancy was my current age, and I don't have kids (yet). We are getting older. In fact, put yourself in the shoes of a male homo ergaster whose balls have just dropped; you walk around, suddenly you see a girl crawling around on all four, with a good rear wiev of her pussy. Do you (A) get horny as hell and fuck her will she nil she; or (B) don't do anything?

      Also, our collective cognitive skill (as measured by IQ) is steadily increasing. There was a science or fiction on The Skeptics' Guide to the Universe (an excellent science podcast) saying exactly by how much, which of course I can't remember. Three point per decade or so? Okay, IQ is influenced by environment to some degree, but just maybe one might demonstrate that some of it is due to evolution; consider the Darwin Awards, for instance.

      In any case, by far most mutations are (AFAIK) harmful, so it is in no one's self-interest to have kids later than sooner (to a point, with a sweet spot somewhere in the twenties). Do we force people to have kids later than they want, just so we can evolve?

      I'd rather we go along with slow evolution until we can do some genetic engineering on ourselves. Besides, by using our hands and frontal lobes, we have this great ability to adapt our environment to us instead of the other way around. Do we have any unadaptive features we desperately need to grow out of as a society?

    11. Re:How convenient! by easyTree · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's difficult to see how a geneticist could actually make such an absurd statement. I suspect either there is major misrepresentation going on, or he's about to have his proverbial testicles handed to him by any number of researchers showing that the claim is factually false and conceptually retarded.

      You think that's absurd? Read some of the comments. From a quick reading of about twenty, there were four or five who simply don't believe in evolution at all!

      Here are a few examples (because I *know* you're not gonna RTFA):

      Why doesn't the eminent scientist come out and admit that evolution has been the ultimate of hoax's. There is not a single scrap of transpeciation in the fossil record, not one on this entire earth that has been recorded. Just a couple examples of micro adaptation - thats it!

      David, Smithers,

      That anyone believes in this made up religion of evolution still amazes me. So little evidence, so much faith required to buy in. Does anyone not notice how often evolutionists change their stories to fit the latest finding? Study creation, it makes sense and fits the same evidence. I dare you.

      John, WR, USA

      Pathetic. Anyone who in this day and age of genetics believe we humans evolved from ape's (sic) need to wake up.

      Caroline Carter, London, UK

      One problem is that the academic elite is completely sold out to Darwinian evolution, and to oppose it is academic death because Darwinism is a religion that will not tolerate dissent.
      Robert Moore, Canton, U.S.A.

      It seems that there's still lots of randomness of _belief_.

    12. Re:How convenient! by cp.tar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not to mention that nowadays boys do not regularly become fathers as soon as they start maturing sexually; if anything, the onset of reproduction is moving forward, to mid- or late twenties.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    13. Re:How convenient! by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 3, Funny

      It would be my "journalists are full of shit" theory :(

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    14. Re:How convenient! by peterofoz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If genetic mutations is all that is required for evolution, there is more than age that can cause this.

      Nearly every month there seems to be a new discovery that some virus or environmental factor causes genetic mutations that result in cancer. Those are just the ones that kill us.

      Perhaps there are also some benign or beneficial mutations occurring because of disease or dirty environment. I, for one, believe kids (and adults) should play outdoors and get dirty to help boost their immune systems and reduce the likelihood of allergies.

      Eat more dirt

    15. Re:How convenient! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't have a cow, man!

    16. Re:How convenient! by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      but you're missing one important point. Say that someone comes up with a treatment for some serious problem with the atp cycle (for an extreme example). Sure it would mean that when civilisation falls a lot of people who need the drugs will die but there's also a chance that you can get a 2 stage mutation which otherwise would never have been possible.
      Think in terms of
      Change X: you die.
      Change Y: you die.
      Change X and Y: new extra effecient solution to a problem.You live.

      It doesn't really matter if 99% of the population dies after civilisation crumbles due to genetic problems etc since 1% of 6 billion is still loads.

    17. Re:How convenient! by umghhh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No amount of evolutionary changes will remove the basic trait of human being - stupidity. From that perspective it does not matter whether evolution actually stopped, accelerated or reversed - we will continue to be stupid, gullible species and it is enough to look in the news any particular day in a year to see that it is so.
      Gosh, maybe it is actually better for survival of the species if they are stupid and gullible. Now if mr Scientist clarified that - I would be impressed.

      TFA is just confirmation that humans are stupid and this including mr scientist - fact that we reach maturity earlier does not mean we procreate earlier too in fact the opposite seems to be true. He mentioned Glasgow in his article which well says a lot...

    18. Re:How convenient! by TheLink · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah like switch from ATP to cold fusion - only problem is you need to drink heavy water and have palladium implants in your muscles.

      Benefit? You can run for hours at sprint speeds and your tendons or joints will wear out first ;).

      --
    19. Re:How convenient! by ciderVisor · · Score: 2

      He mentioned Glasgow in his article which well says a lot...

      I grew up in Glasgow, you insensitive clod !

      --
      Squirrel!
    20. Re:How convenient! by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Read some of the comments.

      Pathetic. Anyone who in this day and age of genetics believe we humans evolved from ape's (sic) need to wake up.

      Caroline Carter, London, UK

      That is of course true. Humans did not evolve from apes but from a common ancestor.

      If you think I'm nitpicking, I find this common misunderstanding to be one of the best ways to tell whether I'm going to have a useful discussion with someone or whether I shouldn't bother in the first place.

    21. Re:How convenient! by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's quite reasonable to assume that evolution gets stuck in local minimums

      You appear to be living proof of that.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:How convenient! by somersault · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You think there is no selection pressure? It may not be based on the same criteria, but there is still definitely pressure for males and females to meet certain criteria before they will be allowed to mate successfully. As any geek should well appreciate!

      --
      which is totally what she said
    23. Re:How convenient! by feepness · · Score: 2, Funny

      I expect that in a couple of days the news will be that evolution is slowly reversing..

      Q: Are we not men? A: We are DEVO!

    24. Re:How convenient! by rts008 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I read those comments also.

      'John, WR, USA' had me looking for the 'reply to' button:
      "Does anyone not notice how often evolutionists change their stories to fit the latest finding?"

      I think he misses the point that science works this way. "Elementary, my dear Watson!" Sherlock Holmes would say.

      Bah! Most of my fellow citizens are scaring me now days.

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    25. Re:How convenient! by Weedlekin · · Score: 2, Informative

      "And that common ancestor was what, a donkey?"

      Neither donkeys nor apes existed when humans and apes took divergent paths from the common human / ape ancestor, so your attempt at sarcasm would have been far better if you knew what you were talking about.

      Darwin didn't claim humans evolved from apes. Modern evolution theory doesn't claim that humans evolved from apes. And apes, humans, and donkeys do indeed have a common ancestor, just like frogs and elephants have a common ancestor, and sharks and redwood trees have a common ancestor.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    26. Re:How convenient! by nospam007 · · Score: 2, Funny

      >Gosh, maybe it is actually better for survival of the species if they are stupid and gullible.

      For Nigerian princes, definitely!

    27. Re:How convenient! by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The biggest driver of evolution will always be catastrophic changes to the environment. Evolution advances rapidly when space in made available for mutations develop into empty spaces within the food chain in specific locals. It is very likely that the biggest driver for human evolution has been the relatively frequently recurring ice ages in recent geologic history.

      Just as in future, the major drivers for human evolution will be those same ice ages recurring or, on own impact upon the environment being so great as to alter the environment sufficiently from the conditions under which we evolved as to force evolutionary adaptation to the new altered environment. Other changes in bacteria or viruses could also force associated changes in humans and, of course not to forget catastrophic impact.

      Although evolution occurs across millions of years, there will be numerous periods, millennia, where evolution is accelerated fro particular species due to particular environmental conditions, so not much gradual change, but periods of relative stability interspersed with periods of accelerated change.

      So as it has occurred in the past, a catastrophic event will either accelerate human evolution or end it, extinction being the only reason for a species to cease evolving. Crazy short haired rock throwing monkeys are really going to have to get over the idea that this universe needs or wants them to survive ;D.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    28. Re:How convenient! by AlecC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would say that the common ancestor we shared with the other apes (Chimp, bonobo, gorilla, orang) would be described by most taxonomists as an ape. Not any living species of ape, but having enough commonality with its descendants to be classified as an ape. It would have probably shared the common characteristics by which we group its descendants - tailless, grasping hands and feet, relatively large brain etc.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    29. Re:How convenient! by Weedlekin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "There was a time where the life expectancy was my current age"

      There was a time when _average_ life expectancy was your current age, because average life expectancy is calculated on figures that include infant mortality, which was (and still is in some parts of the world) around 90% for much of our history. Those who survived to the age of twelve years did however live just as long as people do today.

      "We are getting older"

      We're getting older _on average_ because birth rates in nearly all Western countries (and some Eastern ones such as Japan) have dropped below the levels required to maintain historic age ratios, so their "native" populations are declining. This does not however mean that our typical maximum ages are longer than they were historically, hence the Old Testament passage which says that men (no figures are given for women) live 70 years, and some reach 80 or more, "but they have little joy of it", i.e. men who live more than 70 years were likely to suffer from age-related health problems, just as they do today.

      "Also, our collective cognitive skill (as measured by IQ) is steadily increasing."

      IQ tests only measure the ability to pass IQ tests. There is a correlation between that ability and intelligence, but it's nothing more than a correlation, so an increased IQ in a population over time could just as easily be due to changes in the tests themselves as changes in those being tested.

      "IQ is influenced by environment to some degree"

      But intelligence isn't, otherwise we'd be able to produce environments that turned every child into a genius (note here that I'm referring to true geniuses such as Newton and Einstein, not those who fall into an arbitrary statistical IQ region).

      "I'd rather we go along with slow evolution until we can do some genetic engineering on ourselves."

      There's no such thing as "slow" or "fast" evolution, because organisms only change permanently when doing so makes them better at surviving in their environment than those without the new traits. There's a distinct body of evolutionary theory (based on evidence) which suggests that it actually happens in distinct spurts rather than by the slow accumulation of changes, which if true, would mean that the next phase in human evolution will be a distinct "jump" whose nature cannot be predicted by our current knowledge of genetics.

      "by using our hands and frontal lobes, we have this great ability to adapt our environment to us instead of the other way around."

      And this may be the ultimate result of evolution, whose only goal is after all to perpetuate a bunch of genes. What better way of doing this is there than by evolving an organism that can first make its environment suit it, and later come up with ways of changing itself at will to suit new environments? So perhaps it's time for geneticists to consider human technology as being a part of evolution just like our genes are, because it's those genes which produced our technological capability, including the emerging science of genetic engineering which will eventually allow us to modify our genetic makeup in a single generation in ways that would take millions of years otherwise.

      So perhaps we should stop thinking of human technology and evolution as being separate things, something that's IMO hypocritical when we treat the technology of other animals such as species of ant that farm crops or livestock as being an evolutionary adaptation.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    30. Re:How convenient! by electrictroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >>>"modern social customs have lowered the age at which human males have offspring"

      That makes no sense. Men have been marrying later (or not at all). Heck Romeo married when he was 16, and that was customary at that time... in the 1800s most americans married at 22.... you don't see that happening today. A lot of people are waiting until their 30s.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    31. Re:How convenient! by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One way of seeing this is that a man that has become older and is still healthy means that the genes provides less risk of inherited disabling diseases and therefore is a better mate from that perspective. An older man is also likely to have gained a better position in society.

      Evolution is still going on, but it is also circumvented by modern medicine. I would rather claim that medicine is the limiting factor for evolution.

      Today we have a large number of diseases that is caused by our lazy living and sugared diets. So evolution will pick off the ones that aren't able to live lazy by heart attacks and similar defects.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    32. Re:How convenient! by Dekortage · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's difficult to see how a geneticist could actually make such an absurd statement.

      Probably because he is a geneticist, and not a historian or sociologist or reproductive health physician. In most countries -- even this country, in the not-so-distant past -- people married and had children in their teens and early 20s. "In 1796, life expectancy hovered around 24 years" -- allegedly not much more than Neolithic people. So if human evolution has progressed for millions of years through men and women procreating in their 20s, how can Professor Jones suggest (with a straight face) that evolution requires older men?

      Maybe he's just trying to get laid.

      --
      $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
    33. Re:How convenient! by HistoricPrizm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Evolution IS the response to the environment and life-affecting issues. Evolution is, in a manner of speaking, random genetic mutations that result in having a better chance of surviving those environmental changes. So, yes, modern medicine is definitely a factor in keeping people from passing on their genes. Take for example, a childhood leukemia victim. If modern medicine saves that child, that child now has the ability to pass on whatever genes predisposed them to that leukemia. Now, I'm not saying that that person shouldn't be saved, but it serves to support both the article and the medicine aspect. Society's support of curing leukemia, combined with the ability to do so, have limited the evolutionary path.

    34. Re:How convenient! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If we can now take care of some of the genetic factors that would limit someone in a more primitive society, then we can start emphasizing the factors that provide advantages in a more sophisticated one. If someone is highly intelligent and creative and socially supportive, then that's a reason we want them and it's a plus if a no-longer issue prevents them from passing on their genes.

      You seem to be working under the delusion that evolution is something that someone has control over. Other than the women, I mean. Face it, being highly intelligent and creative and socially supportive may be really desirable, but unless the WOMEN are looking to screw men like that (or the men screw women like that), it ain't gonna be.

      What's going to happen is that women will continue to screw the same guys they've been screwing, and the highly intelligent, creative, socially supportive guys will continue to spend time in their basement trying to justify why women should be chasing them in droves.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    35. Re:How convenient! by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is always that people assume that the only evolution is disease/lifespan related.

      Healthcare that removes selectors like heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc, just pushes selection in a different direction, and it becomes more about who you can convince to mate with you, rather than whether or not you'll be picked off by a disease.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    36. Re:How convenient! by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you have a much better opinion on this subject...

      It becomes less about the strongest and healthiest males mating with whomever they damn well please, usually selecting the best female specimens.

      I think that, by and large, we've eliminated a lot of what would otherwise have been "natural" selection.

      In fact, if people's behaviors are any indication, we might just be regressing.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    37. Re:How convenient! by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What makes you think that society was ever able to stop kids from having sex? Do you actually seriously believe that in the Ye Olde Days 12 and 13 year olds didn't have sex? Just how naive could you be?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    38. Re:How convenient! by Kelbear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Evolution doesn't care whether or not you think it's making the right selections.

      It just happens.

    39. Re:How convenient! by mathmathrevolution · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's the good news: you're just wrong.

      Women have consistent evolutionary principles. They want men who will father, provide for, and protect vibrant offspring. However, the criteria that women use to asses these qualities in potential mates hasn't changed that much since the advent of agriculture. Consequently to modern man these judgments seem contradictory and illogical to geeks (many of whom are inadvertently and constantly telegraphing their low value to the women they meet).

      More good news: once you determine the real criteria that women are using, you can the knowledge of these criteria to your advantage and charm all kinds of women.

      So before you write off your lifetime sexual prospects, do yourself a favor and at least give the book a chance: The Mystery Method.

    40. Re:How convenient! by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They can't be that intelligent if they can't get a mate. That is a skill and endeavor like anything else.

    41. Re:How convenient! by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      More importantly personality (e.g intelligence creativity etc) is at best weakly genetical, so human "evolution" becomes less about biology and more about sociology.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    42. Re:How convenient! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've been married for 25+ years, so I think I have a clue about women.

      They want men who will father, provide for, and protect vibrant offspring.

      They do in fact want all these things. Note that the man providing for and protecting the vibrant offspring isn't necessarily the one they want to father said vibrant offspring.

      once you determine the real criteria that women are using, you can the knowledge of these criteria to your advantage and charm all kinds of women.

      Yes, and all kinds of women are quite used to all kinds of charmers. Reading the manual only helps if you have a bit of what it takes WITHOUT the manual.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  2. Ugh by areusche · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I for one welcome our old men banging young women overlords."

    Keep on dreaming buddy.

    1. Re:Ugh by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, like a young woman could be an overlord... (not counting if McCain wins and has a heart attack)

      No, we're not counting a 44-year-old bit^H^H^H as a "young woman".

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  3. Darwinian evolution? by Cowclops · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even if this guy turns out to be wrong for the reasons he gave, I wouldn't be surprised if modern society is messing with the evolution of humans compared to most other species in the past. Modern medicine may SAVE people that "should have" died and not passed on their genes. For better or worse, this is different than what happens outside of human society.

    1. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Alexandra+Erenhart · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree, but usually those "saved" people don't breed or become uncapable of.

      And I don't know about "de-evolving", but for me it seems like people "with low IQ" (I don't know how to say it without being offensive) are breeding more than smart people, because usually smart people leave having children for later, or even not even have them, for the sake of their careers. I don't have anything against pursuing what you wanna do with your life, but I'd rater have more smart kids being born.

    2. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Your radical new ideas have already occurred to Mike Judge.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

    3. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Amiga+Trombone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, but OTOH smart people have more opportunities to meet each other that they didn't have in the past. If you were born on a farm in 1900, chances are you'd stay there all your life, even if you had an IQ of 160. Now, most reasonably smart people have the opportunity to go to universities, and work in environments where they're going to meet other smart people. Of course, the children of smart parents tend to regress toward the mean, so genetics may play a lesser role in intelligence than you might think.

    4. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Modern medicine may SAVE people that "should have" died and not passed on their genes. For better or worse, this is different than what happens outside of human society.

      Seems to me that just results in selecting for genes that improve the odds of getting modern medical treatment, same old darwinian evoluation.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:Darwinian evolution? by StrahdVZ · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Or more accurately, his ideas have been studied/proposed since the early 1900s.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

    6. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Due to how genetics works - having two above average IQ people as parents will only have about 1/4 (on average) of having a smart kid. It needs to be done for generations before you get consistent effects.

      A shout out to Mendel for this tidbit.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    7. Re:Darwinian evolution? by techno-vampire · · Score: 2, Informative
      I agree, but usually those "saved" people don't breed or become uncapable of.

      1000 years ago, a child who developed diabetes would probably die long before they were able to reproduce. If they were lucky, and had parents wealthy enough to afford the best medical care the times could provide, they might live into their early twenties. Now, of course, a diabetic child can grow up to live a happy, healthy, normal life, including raising a family.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    8. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 4, Informative

      Human mind is not a clean slate. This has not been the consensus since the 60s.

      The aptly titled book "The blank slate" by Steven Pinker is a really good overview of the research that has evolved our understanding of the nature and nurture debate.

      There are genetic factors that influence intelligence, as well as environmental factors. The notion that everyone is born equal is unfortunately not true. (people are much more accepting that physical differences are genetic, but not mental...)

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    9. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why is Hitler a source for your argument? Do you ask someone in the street for their opinion of the stock market? Who cares what he thought about Jews.

      Having good genes does give you an advantage in life - just like having a predisposition to creativity, good motor skills, not being born a psycho or any number of traits with genetic components. Having good parents (also an unearned privilege) is a massive advantage in life. Likewise being born a haemophiliac or with down syndrome is a disadvantage. However that is life, and you have to make the best of what you have.

      As for your notion that this is how things should be all I can say too bad. Life is how it is, and pretending otherwise doesn't change anything. http://xkcd.com/240/

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    10. Re:Darwinian evolution? by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the economy gets worse then having a lot of kids might not seem so silly when you reach old age.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Merusdraconis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but that's balanced by the possibility of smart kids being born from dumb parents via genetic mutation. How else did the smart parents become smart?

    12. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Peeteriz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are factually wrong.

      1) IQ (as opposed to knowledge and skill) is mostly pre-set and is able to be determined comparably early in childhood and will have only comparably minor variations throughout later years.
      2) There is a not huge, but statistically significant correlation between IQ of children and their parents. Children of IQ 150 parents won't statistically have huge IQ, but their mean IQ will be approx 110 instead of 100 as for general population, which does suggest that intelligence is at least partly inherited.
      3) Genocide based on genetic properties is evil. But this does not make the above things untrue.

    13. Re:Darwinian evolution? by fyoder · · Score: 5, Funny

      Modern medicine may SAVE people that "should have" died and not passed on their genes.

      Hell, I do that all the time when I slam on the brakes for idiot pedestrians. I feel like such a traitor to Darwin. I'm screwing up the whole system.

      --
      Loose lips lose spit.
    14. Re:Darwinian evolution? by niktemadur · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People "with low IQ" are breeding more than smart people.

      That could be a matter of memetics, instead of genetics.

      Here's the brunt of it: many children grow up in a family and social environment lacking in intellectual stimulation, where even asking questions and/or searching for answers may be taboo.

      I'll keep it apolitical and mention a friend who, when caught at a very early age reading comic books by his mother, was chastised for "reading garbage". Well, guess what, that person has never read for the sheer pleasure of it, his intellectual curiosity was stomped lifeless by his stupid fucking mother, who probably had the TV on all the time, and probably "thought" the proper thing for her offspring was to start reading on their own with The Illiad, The fucking Book Of Acts, Milton's Paradise Lost, or not at all.

      This may more common than one thinks, in varying degrees, through different circumstances. In my twenties, in vacation from college, my fundamentalist mother tried to take Hesse's The Steppenwolf from me, but I told her she would have to pry it from my cold, dead hands. Later that summer, I noticed my Philip K Dick paperbacks had disappeared from my bedroom.

      So, to reiterate my point: nascent memes in individuals collide with established memes in others, sometimes the "willfully ignorant" memes persevere in the end.

      I'd rater have more smart kids being born.

      Yeah, that's quite a painful paradox, isn't it? It comes down to "memes of openness" to new ideas, found in the educated segments of the population, embracing contraception, while "memes of closed-mindedness", found in most religious segments, repudiate birth control. Guess which segment's gonna have more babies.

      If the religious establishment had accepted contraception when it came out, things would have be a whole different shade today, yet what the educational system currently reflects is exactly the opposite. The viewpoint that contraception begets immorality has resulted in a spike of teen pregnancies as well as venereal diseases like gonorrhea, syphilis and herpes in the Bible Belt and beyond, go figure, like they went straight from the nineteenth century to the twenty first, and the twentieth never happened.

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
    15. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't have anything against pursuing what you wanna do with your life, but I'd rater have more smart kids being born.

      Given that as a species we still have an overpopulation problem, wouldn't less dumb kids being born work the same, just better?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    16. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Indeed, I mean here all these people with high IQs are hooking up, yet the average IQ remains at 100!

    17. Re:Darwinian evolution? by bussdriver · · Score: 4, Insightful

      -its hard to measure 'smart' and there are multiple kinds of 'smart'

      -'smart' parents may be poor at bringing up children properly

      -'smart' may require certain things to 'trigger' it which differs as well as the age range etc

      -many genetic traits we know about skip generations etc. This could be more complex than the simple stuff we know about now

      -developmental problems could contribute; where infant health could inhibit brain development or indirectly impact it

      -'smart' people could just be lucky and there are more than we realize (even they don't realize it) I'm not just suggesting environment, but also luck, and timing. There are plenty of physically capable people who just lack the diet, exercise, motivation, where there is clearly SOME genetics but its also other factors

      -LONG TERM trends were what got us here

    18. Re:Darwinian evolution? by ozphx · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...you might not know but Hitler also started with this premise of clearing the genepool....

      G G G G GODWIN!!!!!

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    19. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Loki_666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It can probably be shown that the average IQ of the average Slashdot reader is somewhere far in excess of 100.... however, when they post on Slashdot they suffer a temporary rapid decrease in IQ to the level of a caveman (hmmm... temporary devolution anyone?).

      On topic - it was mentioned that due to the large population of earth our genes are not being mixed so well... however, i would disagree because of increased travel and mobility of populations.

      For example, i am 100% british (meaning i probably have german, french, scottish, irish, viking ancestors) and my wife is 25% Korean, 25% Russian, 50% Estonian, and there is definitely some Polish in there as well. As we have two kids their genes are therefore made up from an even crazier mix from their parents diverse backgrounds.

      In addition to the points raised about life expectancy in the old days being much shorter i call bullshit on the whole article.

      If there is a reason for slowing or stopping of evolution it is because we no longer need to evolve. Evolution is a response to external pressures and natural selection. These days we change our environment to suit us and have been doing this for many centuries.

      As for the creationists, in the words of Bill Hicks: "You ever notice how people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?".

    20. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why don't you look up the word "supremacist", then read the post you're replying to. I don't see where he said anything about superiority.

      On a lighter note:

      What we need is a great big melting pot
      Big enough enough enough to take
      The world and all its got
      And keep it stirring for
      A hundred years or more
      And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

      As someone pointed out, due to assortative mating that doesn't actually happen in practice.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      However, if one lacks the tens of thousands of dollars it takes to obtain the resources of a college and university, and more importantly the degree that proves you have made your monetary contribution to that system, most of these avenues will be forever closed.

      I didn't spend any dollars to get my degree. In fact the government gave me some pounds.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    22. Re:Darwinian evolution? by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Informative

      He's talking about the specific case where both parents are high intelligence. If it's recessive both must be II, so all the offspring will be.

      It's similar to blue eyes (the simplified version, in practice it's a liitle more complicated).

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re:Darwinian evolution? by StrawberryFrog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1000 years ago, a child who developed diabetes would probably die long before they were able to reproduce. ... now a diabetic child can grow up to live a happy, healthy, normal life, including raising a family

      You cannot stop natural selection, you can only change the selection criteria.

      --

      My Karma: ran over your Dogma
      StrawberryFrog

  4. Seems a little strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Women are definitely having children later. So late in many cases that there is a significant chance of genetic abnormalities like Down's Syndrome.

    Are males really having children younger? Enough to offset women having children later?

    1. Re:Seems a little strange by adamchou · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't see how his claim for men having children earlier can possibly be true.

      According to the article, he cites one guy who was a ruler at his time so obviously that person had lots of women to foster children.
      If anything, men today are living longer than they were before due to better health care and medicine.

      I don't have quotations on this, but I remember reading that in the olden times, if they lived past 50, that was amazing.

      I call bullshit on this guy. He's just trying to hook up with young girls.

    2. Re:Seems a little strange by adamchou · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ok, not the best source, but this is probably more reputable than that guy in the article. Life expectancy has more than doubled so what he's talking about is nonsense http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

    3. Re:Seems a little strange by Trip6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It used to be that you had your kids within a year after reaching puberty. And you died by 40. Today society outlaws this behavior, and even people having kids in their 20s are deemed "too young." So what is this guy talking about?

      --
      I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
    4. Re:Seems a little strange by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Insightful

      50 year old don't marry 14 year old as often these days, though...

    5. Re:Seems a little strange by cborg · · Score: 2, Funny

      You could call this the cougar syndrome.

    6. Re:Seems a little strange by davolfman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I thought the average lifespan was so low mostly because it was a mean with high infant mortality.

    7. Re:Seems a little strange by courseofhumanevents · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are males really having children younger?

      I don't know about you, but I'm worried that men are having children at all.

    8. Re:Seems a little strange by solanum · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not really true if you look beyond the recent past. Humans evolved as hunter-gatherers and in pre-agrarian hunter-gatherer communities reaching 70+ wasn't uncommon. There's plenty of documentation on the health and lifespan on Australian Aborigines (prior to the almost entirely negative effects of Westerners spreading through their country). Plus, the general rule was that the culturally more powerful older men had most of the women with the younger men largely having to wait their turn. You're right about the women having kids young though.

      Personally, I don't know about the changes to this system affecting evolution, but I suspect there isn't much going on in humans. Look how we're breeding fertility problems into our species by the use of IVF (not that I oppose the use of IVF). Plus, most evolution is mainly viewed as a punctuated equilibrium these days, so we need a major change in our environment to push significant evolution.

      --
      Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
  5. I accept my fate by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Funny

        I accept my fate. I will propagate with younger women, if for nothing else than to save our species. :)

    --
    Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  6. Steve has some issues. by Tenek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Clearly, since rabbits breed at a much earlier age than humans, they don't evolve at all? Please. Evolution occurs when you have an imperfectly reproducing population with finite resources. Modern social customs have an effect on evolution, to be sure, but they absolutely do not stop it completely. Any attribute which increases the expected number of successful offspring will be selected for, just as it has been for the past few billion years with every single species on the planet. It's one thing to assert that a couple factors may slow it down, but "stopping" evolution by breeding earlier is right up there with "stopping" gravity by building a floor. It all becomes part of the system.

  7. Right for the wrong reasons by caller9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If human evolution is slowing, it isn't because of old dudes having mutated sperm.

    * Historically most people and any animal I've heard of reproduced as soon as possible, old fart mating doesn't really make sense. People are actually reproducing at an older age(TRUE)...we get autism(*WILD SPECULATION*).

    * Stupid people have more kids, raise them to be stupid.

    * Smart people have fewer kids, raise them to reproduce responsibly(less).

    * Health care, safety measures, and social medicine keep stupid people alive to the age of reproduction.

    This guy is waaaay off. We're devolving...at least mentally, has nothing to do with saggy old balls.

    1. Re:Right for the wrong reasons by tibman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not devolving, there's no such thing. People will evolve to best adapt to the environment over a long period of time. If the best way to survive is have the "talking shit and lying out your ass" trait then you'll start to see it more. If rich & smart people aren't reproducing as much then apparently there is a level of stupidity and poverty required for reproduction. Though that is not necessarily a bad thing. Nature doesn't give a fuck about money or intellect, only the ability to survive the longest and create the largest amount of progeny.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    2. Re:Right for the wrong reasons by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To be fair, if it gets really bad, there's always the chance that the stupid people will get so stupid, and the smart people will get so smart, that the smart people can easily solve the problem by herding the stupid people off a cliff (real or metaphorical).

      And in a postapocalyptic world, you don't really have to worry so much about earning a wage, so it makes sense to have as many children as you want. (Plus, it's not as though condoms will be easy to come by, if it truly was apocalyptic.)

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    3. Re:Right for the wrong reasons by jagdish · · Score: 3, Informative

      very true. If anyone disagrees, I suggest you watch the first five minutes of Idiocracy. In fact, you should watch the rest of the movie as well.

    4. Re:Right for the wrong reasons by Drasil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Historically most people and any animal I've heard of reproduced as soon as possible, old fart mating doesn't really make sense. People are actually reproducing at an older age(TRUE)...we get autism(*WILD SPECULATION*).

      My son was born when I was 24 and he's autistic. From the information I have available it seems the rise in autism is caused by a combination of increased diagnosis and some as yet undiscovered (probably man-made) environmental factor.

      Stupid people have more kids, raise them to be stupid. Smart people have fewer kids, raise them to reproduce responsibly(less).

      Would you suggest then that catholic Christians are more stupid than protestant Christians? There are many things that influence family size, and intelligence seems to me to be a minor one. If there is any evidence you can produce to support these statements I'd like to see it.

      We're devolving

      We're all Devo

      I've been arguing that we have stopped evolving in a normal way for the past couple of decades due to our increased control over the environmental factors that used to act as evolutionary drivers. We have eliminated the wolves, bears and other competitors. We had made great progress in medicine, I am the son of a type 1 diabetic, had my father been born 15 years earlier he would have died long before I was born. If we are still evolving then I strongly suspect most of the selectors are now man-made.

  8. Dysgenics by Scarbo27 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I agree with the thesis, but not the cause. The problem is that modern welfare programs protect the stupid, lazy, and generally incompetent; and allows them to breed without regard for the fact that the parents are not capable of providing for their children. The most basic and immutable law of economics is that you get more of what you subsidize, and less of what you tax. In America, and other first-world countries, we subsidize illegitimacy and tax work. I am not suggesting we do away with welfare, but we shouldn't ignore the consequences of a welfare system that doesn't either encourage birth-control, or discourage unrestricted breeding. Let the hating begin.

    1. Re:Dysgenics by wizardforce · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would hope against all evidence to the contrary that human beings' lives will eventually be valued by society and most humans in general more than their ability to create money.

      --
      Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
  9. Evolution doesn't just "stop"... by Ruke · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not like evolution just stops because of technological advances. We're just evolving within a different environment, with different selective pressures. Remember, evolution isn't driving us towards a "best," it's driving us towards a "works for now."

    Besides, society and technology have only been around for a few thousand years. If you're an optimist, the future of the human race looks really hot, and is fairly promiscuous. If you're a pessimist, society collapses, and we're back to the good ol' fashioned try-not-to-die for a while.

  10. Feh! by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 2, Funny

    Biological evolution is for chimps; real men are all about memetic evolution!

    --
    Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
  11. The article is worth reading. by Pinckney · · Score: 4, Informative

    The author makes two additional points that the summary doesn't mention. Firstly, children born in the west are dramatically more likely to survive. They experience significantly less natural selection. Secondly, our large populations make any genetic fluke less likely to survive. Think of inbreeding here; with a small population, otherwise rare genes can become common. We're experiencing the reverse trend.

  12. This is absolute rubbish by presidenteloco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bacteria, for example, reproduce at age 1 hour, say, and have no trouble evolving. This thesis is just another example of denying we are animals,

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:This is absolute rubbish by Graff · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bacteria, for example, reproduce at age 1 hour, say, and have no trouble evolving.

      Bacteria also reproduce in an exponential fashion, given an adequate supply of food. In one day a single bacterium will turn into 2^24 bacteria for a total number of 16,777,215 divisions per day or 6,123,683,475 times per year. That's far more than the 300 or so divisions for the 29-year old mentioned in the article, a rate of around 1 per year. This means that a single bacterium mutates around 6 billion times faster than a human.

      Yes, this is an extreme (and simplified) estimate but it does give you an idea of the difference in scale between bacterial evolution and human evolution. It has nothing to do with absolute time, it has to do with the overall number of cell divisions over time.

      Bacteria are also very good at picking up genes from other bacteria in their environment, which is another way that they evolve. Bacteria also often live in environments with little protection from outside influences such as chemicals and radiation. Our bodies have fairly complex mechanisms to prevent and weed out mutations but bacteria mostly lack this ability.

      These are just some of the reasons that bacteria generally evolve much faster than humans.

  13. Idiot by DrSkwid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, were under no evolutionary pressure. The world is in stasis. There will be no more pandemics like Spanish Flu that wiped out tens of millions of us a couple of generations ago.

    What a fucking tool.

    --
    There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  14. Re:The Problem is Natural Selection by Fieryphoenix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Utterly wrong on so many levels. Natural selection is going along just fine and dandy, thank you very much. The human environment has simply changed. The hemophiliacs now are fit, because their environment no longer kills them. Evolution is only ever relative to a species' environment, and many traits formerly selected against due to lethality are no longer relevant in this brave new world.

  15. Re:Not evolving because why? by Kandenshi · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's a blog post from PZ Myers on Pharyngula that addresses this statement from Steve Jones fairly well I think. Read it in full here
     

    This[the idea that older men have more mutations in their sperm] is true, but it makes no sense. It's not as if younger fathers produce no mutations -- they generate plenty. It's a difference in degree, nothing more, so we still have plenty of new mutations percolating into the population. And of course, over most of human history parents have been relatively young, since you couldn't count on living to the age of 35.

    And then there's this odd argument.

            Another factor is the weakening of natural selection. "In ancient times half our children would have died by the age of 20. Now, in the Western world, 98 per cent of them are surviving to 21."

    That makes even less sense. Natural selection is going to eliminate variants; by reducing its effects, we permit more mutations to persist in the population. One moment he's complaining that fewer mutations are being produced, the next he's complaining that the mutants are thriving. Which is it?

    tl;dr = Steve Jones is full of wacky.

  16. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is absolute garbage science of the highest order and I'm surprised it is even mentioned here.

  17. Idiotic by Xonstantine · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Evolution of a species only stops with extinction. Period.

    1. Re:Idiotic by steevc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've thought for some time that evolution in humans must be stagnating. There is very little natural selection if most humans are likely to grow up and reproduce regardless of their intelligence or physical attributes due to medical advances and states caring for their citizens. This probably means that many genetic disorders will not die out as they might have in the past.

      You start wondering if some people should be allowed to reproduce, but that gets into dodgy territory.

      Are their any societies where 'selective breeding' takes place on a wide enough scale to have a chance of producing evolutionary changes?

    2. Re:Idiotic by steevc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I was just saying that without us having to become 'better' just to survive then there will be no pressure to evolve in a particular direction and so we will continue to have various random variations, but they will lead nowhere. If anything we will become 'worse' as the 'bad' genes will not drop out of the pool.

      I know little about genetics, but I think I understand some of the general principles. Okay, I've read some Dawkins.

  18. Re:de-evolution by shawb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Dude... a couple of decades is about one generation. You'd need a LOT more generations of isolation to become genetically incompatible. IIRC, the amount of gene flow needed to indefinitely stave off speciation is on the order of one or two individuals every five generations. Considering that the length of time Native American populations had been geographically isolated from European populations wasn't enough to cause speciation, this is no something you are going to see in your lifetime. It would take a MASSIVE gap of time with essentially zero gene flow between populations to get anywhere near the point where offspring are non-viable. If there is a set of humans found that is genetically incompatible with normal people, it would most likely be in some newly discovered isolated tribe rather than an Eloi/Morlock type split.

    --
    I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
  19. I have to wonder by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, I just have to wonder, though.

    I mean, cats on the average live 14 to 20 years if kept indoors and well taken care of, or a _lot_ less out in the wild. Most humans don't have children at the age at which cats die. I don't think it stopped cat evolution.

    Squirrels have a life expectancy of a couple of years. Humans would still be a toddler by the age when a squirrel dies, and thus stops reproducing. I don't think that was a big problem for evolution.

    Mayflies live between 30 minutes and a whole day as an adult, though, to be fair, we must add 1 year worth of larva and nymph stage to that. Does that prevent mutations and natural selection. I don't think so.

    Basically _most_ species out there have a life expectancy lower than the age at which humans reproduce. If that stopped evolution, then we wouldn't be here in the first place.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:I have to wonder by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 2, Informative

      I see what you are trying to say - but your point doesn't apply as you think it does. As creatures get longer dna / live longer (note: these two are not related but both increase mutations), their dna correction mechanisms improve, a necessity to avoid mutational meltdown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutational_meltdown). So in essence the amount of mutations that humans would pass onto the next generation at their (pre-civ) average breeding age is the same as for cats or squirrels at their average breeding age.

      All creatures hover around the 1 (on average) for each offspring - as this nets you the best rate of evolution vs stability (although in crisis situations a higher mutation rate might be beneficial / opposite case as well)

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
  20. Re:The Problem is Natural Selection by happyDave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh my. Someone on the Internet understands evolution through natural selection, and the definition of fitness in relation to environment. The world's about to end.

    It's so frustrating to see so many other comments that treat "fitness" as something that exists outside of any context, as if what they value as fitness is what the selection process used.

  21. He is almost right by Plutonite · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Disclaimer: IANAEB

    This has nothing to do with older men and younger women.

    I say we will stop evolving any significant changes fairly soon because:

    A) We have interracial mixing on all continents and in almost all genetic populations due to advances in human transportation.

    B) Our other technological advances mean that we are highly capable of surviving due to the nature of our innovations as opposed to radical changes in our bodies (that in other species' histories may have been the major factor of eliminatig the unsuitable). This includes fighting natural disaster, possible predators, and food supply/type changes (industrialized production of food).

    C) Welfare. We have organised the distribution of our resources. The weak will not flourish, but they won't die.

    D) We are highly selective physically (males at least, females to a much lesser extent) due this time to communications technology and the entertainment industry broadcasting good genes everywhere, so we are less forgiving in terms of physical absurdity that may occur in our corner of the world.

    E) He just wants to bang young girls. The hypothetical secretary in his office, to be exact. Slashdot is being used. Again.

  22. Re:The Problem is Natural Selection by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually, I have this theory:

    Most of us nerds are terribly low regarding competition to get females. However, we are more apt at improving society as a whole (or gaining power from society a-la-Billy-Gates).

    So what if... mankind has evolved to develop a classes system - you know, like ants, bees and other social insects?

    We have the kings and queens (leaders, apt for government)
    We have soldiers - very strong and apt for defending us against other dangerous species (even ourselves).
    Nerds go here, in the "research and development" class. Let's call ourselves the "pathfinders".
    We also have workers. Not very intelligent people, but who can provide goods for everyone. Let's call them "sheeple".

    Together, we fight as a whole, for the survival of the species.

    Of course, this isn't a valid scientific theory. Just a thought.

  23. Re:Not evolving because why? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One moment he's complaining that fewer mutations are being produced, the next he's complaining that the mutants are thriving. Which is it?

    It's not that the mutants survive, it's that everyone survives, so there's no basis for any one mutant having a better chance of survival. Which means we'll just have a lot of mutants.

    Evolution can't work if "survival of the fittest" really means "survival of everyone". It looks like we'll either stagnate or evolve completely randomly, in all directions that don't outright kill us. Probably some combination -- all these random mutations won't get really exaggerated, because they'll just be absorbed back into the population.

    Of course, that's not really the end of human evolution, it's more the end of meaningful human evolution. Idiocracy is an example of how humanity could (or already has) evolved in a direction we probably don't want, and don't think of as "progress" -- but Darwinian evolution does not necessarily equal progress.

    I'm not really sure what the endgame is. I really only see three outcomes: Idiocracy (we stop caring about real science, and fall back on Darwinian evolution); MAD (we blow ourselves up (selecting ourselves out), and science dies with us); or posthumanism (science continues at roughly the pace it has, which means we'll use technology to enhance ourselves).

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  24. Re:de-evolution by jamstar7 · · Score: 2, Funny

    but seriously, I think in a couple decades there will be a slashdot story (on my holographic visor with wifi) about the first set of humans were found taht have been determined to be too genetically dissimilar to have offspring.

    And when we kill them, the neocon menace will finally be over. Too bad we'll have just killed the last Neanderthals.

    --
    Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  25. Re:The Problem is Natural Selection by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Natural Selection is interesting in that there's not really anything we can do to stop it -- by definition, it is always happening.

    And it's not just about individuals. Our altruism is a selected quality, as is our technology. It means we get to survive, instead of some other species. It is apparently working, as we are still here -- and it makes sense that it should work.

    After all, if you think back to a time when there was a lot more pressure from natural selection, if a person is wounded by a tiger, we could leave them to die. Then we'd evolve into uncaring fucks, who may have some advantage against tiger attacks -- or are just lucky.

    Instead, we drag them off and heal their wounds. That means there's one more of us, if we decide to hunt down the tiger and kill it.

    The same is just as true today -- maybe that person lying facedown in the street will develop a cure for AIDS.

    If we truly do "stop evolving", and this eventually puts us in danger of dying out -- like the Asgard, from Stargate SG-1 -- then we'll be an evolutionary dead-end. We'll be selected out, just like the Dodo.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  26. Intensely wrong by horatiocain · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I call shenanigans. The process of evolution has not stopped in the least.

    What has happened is that the criteria for fitness in our population has changed. No longer do we select for the strongest, cleverest, fittest individuals.

    The criteria for selection is now much less genetically determined. Those who survive to adulthood, elect to have children, and raise their children to grow up to be adults who have children are more likely to pass on their genes.

    Those who live in safer areas with better access to healthcare are more likely to survive to have children will experience some benefits to selection, but those who live in areas with pro-breeding cultures (where children are more desired or birth control is not present) will be vastly more selected for.

    In short, we're experiencing artificial selection to a much greater degree than that of natural selection. But so long as human beings are reproduce and are born with mutations, we will continue to undergo evolution in some form.

  27. Re:The Problem is Natural Selection by novakyu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The way I see it, problem is not a matter of fitness---it's a matter of desirability of the outcome.

    In today's society, we have highly educated people in developed cultures (hence "successful" and "desirable" to some degree) producing fewer and fewer children, while the less educated in under-developed world continue to grow in population.

    By definition, this would make those who are less educated "fit". Not that there is a problem with that, but if we are to assume that human evolution should point in the direction of higher intelligence, this is definitely not a desirable outcome.

  28. This is obviously true, but by StarKruzr · · Score: 3, Funny

    we are looking, within a few generations at the ability to edit our own DNA. We will start selecting ourselves.

    --

    +++ATH0
  29. Re:The Problem is Natural Selection by BungaDunga · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You just invented the feudal system, basically.

  30. Mod parent up. by plasmacutter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is exactly right.

    For anyone interested in examining the topic of stupidity, I highly suggest looking up, and obtaining in whichever way you choose, a recent CBC documentary on stupdity.

    --
    VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
  31. Ethiopian Boredom Dance... by distantbody · · Score: 2, Insightful

    people "with low IQ" are breeding more than smart people

    ...Oh, I don't know, I think there's also alot to be said about occupied having less children than unnocupied people.

  32. Obligitory: 'You must be new here!' by rts008 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "I, for one, believe kids (and adults) should play outdoors and get dirty to help boost their immune systems and reduce the likelihood of allergies.

    Eat more dirt"

    I happen to agree 100% with you, but I could not resist...Sorry!

    If you want to grow a strong, healthy child, you need a lot of dirt, fresh air, and sunshine to allow for strong roots.
    It also was way cool to grow up on a farm with room to explore and discover my world on my own.

    Sadly, this is becoming a rarity for kids now.

    I guess times change though, and before I start a 'Get off my lawn!' rant...
    I have always kept in mind something my grandfather used to tell me:
    (rough paraphrase)' Life is like a river- water and life are connected for a reason- a river has falls, slow pools, eddies, whirlpools, boulders, sandbars, rapids, all of those things and more. Remember, stagnant water breeds mosquitoes. Who wants that?'

    That wisdom he passed to me has enabled me to keep faith in the good overall fate of the human race lately.

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  33. you never saw this? by way2trivial · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6057734.stm

    we are also apparently splitting into two sub-races.. I call them the morlocs and the eloi
    (as I tend to represent the morloc heritage more closely)

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  34. Have to clarify - I attended the lecture by bumpycat · · Score: 2, Informative
    I actually attended the lecture, and people are talking the most amazing rubbish about it.
    It focussed on three parts:
    • Mutation
    • Natural selection
    • Isolation

    Mutation is going down because the window of reproduction in society is narrowing - men tend have children in a narrow 5-year band at around age 35-40. It's older men who engender more mutation through genetic drift (which increases through age).
    Natural selection - people are living to reproduce more than ever before. In Darwin's time, 33% of people survived to breed. Now it's 99% in the West. It doesn't matter if you have a advantageous OR disadvantageous mutation now, you still breed.
    Isolation - more isolated populations allow a trait to spread. The world is clearly one big melting pot when it comes to human breeding, so isolated populations can't develop.
    His final point: this means that evolution is not really happening any more.

  35. You'd think educators would be more educated. by AlbinoClock · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's disappointing that a professor who doesn't understand evolution is getting Time articles. Evolution, as we should all know, is a composite of two factors: the mutation caused by breeding and the environmental pressures that limit that mutation. What is mutation but a variation on the form of the previous generation? This is achieved simply by means of the crossing of genetic lineages involved in ordinary reproduction with no need for extraneous mutation within the individual. Species are either evolving or extinct.

  36. Brain fart by an old fart? by smchris · · Score: 2, Funny

    How old were Romeo and Juliet? Seriously, I've read that the average life expectancy in classical Greece was something like 19, something like 23 for Imperial Rome, and, for that matter, something like 45 for 19th century America. When does this guy think people in tribal societies started breeding when an impacted wisdom tooth could kill you?

    Sounds more like _somebody_ is having way too many thoughts about his grad assistants blended in with fantasies about the good old days when the chief got _all_ the action.

  37. Genocide by Loke+the+Dog · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Uh, sex is only half the equation here... Killing humans who have a very different set of genes from your own works too. It increases the "weight" of your genes in the human genome, thus bringing long term evolution.

    Like it or not, the killing of jews during world war II has changed the human species. Some genes are much more rare now than they used to be, not that I (or anyone) know what those genes might be. Perhaps the nuclear attacks in japan killed enough closely related people to give that effect as well, I don't know.

    A world with 7 billion people in which you can kill 7 million people in one strike is the same as a world with 1000 people in which you can only kill one human with one strike. With that in mind, I think there's a good chance evolution is happening very fast right now.

  38. What a load of crock. by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Prenatal tests (amniocentesis), test tube babies, and sperm and egg banks already provide more than enough genetic material to radically change the gene pool. Once we allow commonplace genetic engineering of human offspring, evolution will occur rapidly. Don't assume that human whims not under the control of natural selection; the difference is that the genes that survive will serve humanity more than themselves, since humans can now impose their own fitness functions. All it will do is speed up evolution with a new set of pressures, and with luck let us avoid a little bit of our own genes' selfishness along the way. Hopefully our new basic elements of natural selection will be human comfort and enjoyment and not merely allele frequencies.

  39. Death of Evolution prematurely announced by SpinyNorman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The net result of evolution is the shifting of the statistical makeup of the genepool, so to say that evolution is dead is to say that the genepool is no longer changing, which implicity claims that all segments of the global population are reproducing at the same rate, which is trivially false. Birthrates in all societies/genetic sub-populations are in fact very much different, ergo evolution continues.

    One could get more abstract and note that the dymanical equations affecting the makeup of the genepool are no doubt decidely non-linear (contain all sorts of feedback paths), and that the solution to these equations, just like the weather, consistes of complex attractors rather than simple fixed solutions. The equations themselves are of course also changing as the nature of the environment and the feedback paths also change. What this means is that the genepool will forever be changing and as always the prime driver of evolution will the environmental changes which effect genetic fitness of those genes that happen to be around at the time... Unless the environment (including things like weather, epidemics, tectonic plate movements, asteroid impacts) stops changing, the result will be not only that the genepool keeps changing, but that it's course also keeps changing.

  40. In Starcraft Terms... by Macblaster · · Score: 2, Funny

    Humans are more analogous to the Protoss than the Zerg. We do not naturally evolve biologically anymore because we develop advanced technology to do our bidding when we require it. If we need something biological, we'll eventually be able to genetically manipulate it into existence in a lab.

    P.S. Yes I realize we are most analogous to Terrans than to the Protoss, but Carriers are cooler than Battlecruisers.

  41. He has a point, but the article is incomplete IMHO by NecroBones · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, the age at which males are having offspring has increased. I think the geneticist is talking about the average age, rather than starting age.

    As the article mentions, in previous centuries, relatively few offspring would survive to adulthood. This required adults to have numerous offspring, having children starting at an early age and continuing into late adulthood. Today, most people have a few children and stop. So even though they're starting later, they're not continuing to have kids at the age of 50 anymore.

    I think he has a point, but the article is incomplete. This narrower time frame in which adults are procreating also contributes to the reduction in natural selection (one of the more obvious contributors to this is modern medicine). For instance, if a male starts having offspring at the age of 16, and continues until the age of 60, he could not have had any life-threatening maladaptive traits. Compare two such males, and the one with more adaptive traits will have a higher chance of continuing to breed over that sort of time scale, and will thus be more genetically successful.

    In modern society, people can die at the age of 32 from something that they were genetically predisposed to, and it probably won't affect their contribution to the genepool since they've already stopped reproducing.

    --
    I have not lost my mind... it's backed up on disk somewhere!
  42. Nonsense by torstenvl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What complete nonsense.

    First off, evolution doesn't depend on mutation, only certain kinds of macroevolution do.

    Secondly, there are plenty of ways for young men's sperm to mutate, particularly in light of "modern social customs" like ingesting carcinogens day-in/day-out and carrying cell phones in front jeans pockets.

  43. So wrong in so many ways. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Evolution will continue.

    Right now you can see the subsets who breed fast and those who breed slow.

    Those who breed fast will come to dominate the species.

    One fast rising group- the promiscuous and irresponsible. I have had three stripper friends in my life. All had lots of sex and lots of kids (4 each). In each case they gave up 2-3 for adoption and then kept the rest.

    Another fast rising group- the hispanics. Large families - strong support network- less materialism- more religious.

    The islamics (currently on the way to outbreeding the europeans) and palestinians (who will out breed the jews for isreal).

    And there are selection pressures on being good looking (pretty people get to breed more- up to 10% of children in some areas turn out to be parented by a handsome n'ere do well- not the husband). Easier DNA checking is probably going to reign that in.

    Movie stars (a lot of movie stars have multiple families with multiple kids-- pretty and successful).

    Being a successful athelete.

    ---

    Now-- who is not reproducing?

    I only had one kid.
    Several of my friends have never even married. So geeky- D&D types, computer types, engineer types. However, I think in asia those types are still popular (give it a generation tho).

    ---

    And then there is the bad food, tainted food, substance abusing types that have kids. They make the species slightly more resistant to bad food, tainted food, and substance abuse.

    And if that swimmer guy from the olympics gets married and has lots of kids- that would spread the weird mutant genes he has (non-tiring muscles).

    Wrestlers who do not freak out on steroids and kill their families.

    And so on.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  44. It's actually much simpler by Thaelon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Natural selection is still at work, it's just that modern medicine and population size have lowered the bar to the floor in developed places.

    Even if you barely make it through birth and infancy with the aid of doctors and incubators, you still might make it to breed. Even if, on top of that you're mildly retarded, and end up unattractive, unhealthy, and malformed, chances are pretty good that there's still someone out there you can reproduce with. And for an additional twist, if you're rich, or your daddy is, you can probably pay some woman to have your offspring, if you don't necessarily get to plant the seed yourself.

    Now this is mostly first world nations I'm speaking of. In third world countries I would contend that evolution is alive and well. Parts of Africa are the perfect example. If I were to place a bet on where the cure for AIDS will come from it's not some multi billion dollar pharma lab. It's some podunk village in Africa. Not because some researcher there was working with them, but because AIDS is so rampant down there that sooner or later, some lucky human being will be born with, or develop immunity, or just be unaffected entirely. For precisely the same reasons we're starting to see tricolsan resistant bacteria - antibacterial soap is all the rage.

    The bar in some places is still pretty high, and thus evolution continues, but I think it's slowed for a lot of us.

    --

    Question everything

  45. Longstanding Argument by Jack9 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Premise 1: When society starts, natural-selection stops.

    Premise 2: When society starts, natural-selection needs to meet different requirements, and it continues.

    Unfortunately, evolutionary changes that provide an advantage to an individual in a society are often orthogonal to changes promoting lone survival outside of society. There's the big question. Are Meta-evolutionary changes (to adapt to social conditions) truly natural-selection? I would suggest that accepting societal natural selection and survival natural selection are 2 different concepts that often blur in discussion (like the question: what is electricity?).

    Natural-Selection: A process causing heritable traits that are helpful for survival and reproduction to become more common in a population, and harmful traits to become more rare. This occurs because individuals with advantageous traits are more likely to reproduce, so that more individuals in the next generation inherit these traits.

    In a society, the traits that are helpful for survival AND reproduction don't become more common while harmful traits become more rare. Is natural-selection broken? It's a crap shoot, really. We may be able to correct or cure negative traits and helpful traits may be supressed in the interest of (pick your atrocity). A good analog is the mighty Zebra. How handy is it to be black and white striped on your own in the savannah, as opposed to being in a herd of black and white? I think that there should either be a refinement to the definition of NS or preferably multiple definitions to describe the how it applies in relation to a group of similar individuals.

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
  46. There's no such thing as species by Tony · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is the reason that taxonomists now use genetic information rather than morphology, as the latter can lead to erroneous classifications (something that's happened quite a lot in the past).

    No kidding.

    I find the whole concept of "species" to be flawed in this respect. The only practical way to describe relationships between populations (*not* species) is the genetic differential between those populations.

    The whole concept of "species" is part of what drives the creation science crowd. "Oh, but you've never witnessed speciation!" Yeah, that's because there's no such thing as speciation. It's an artificial term that represents the false concept of species!

    All we have is variance of alleles within different populations. We don't have "species." Evolution is nothing more than the changes in allele occurrence in a populations over time.

    And to get back to the stupid-head article, that is still happening in humanity. As for all of you folks saying that medicine has stopped evolution in humans, that's ridiculous. We still have selection pressures, though those selection pressures may be minimal. All we're doing is allowing a massive amount of genetic diversity within our populations. The next time selection pressure shifts (and it will -- it always does), we'll have a *lot* of genetic variation ready to meet the challenge.

    This is all simple evolution. Most of you probably studied the exact same thing in junior high, with the decrease in wolves leading to an increase in rabbits, and then the wolves ramping up again to kill off the rabbits, and so on. This cycle (which is highly simplified) is what we're experiencing now. At some point, our environment will change, and we'll be glad to have all the genetic diversity we're building up now.

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
  47. Natural Selection by DarthVain · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Although not quite the same thing, I have often wondered what our current culture is doing to us through natural selection. Now I know it takes many generations to make a difference. However one has to think that those with certain genetic problems may not have had a chance to propagate as they would likely die.

    For instance, do you think 500 years ago as many people has bad eyes, or asthma or, other conditions or mental problems? It kind of makes me think what we well all be like in a 1000 years from now, 5000 years.

    Also as an extension of that principle it isn't the number of years that matter, but rather the number of generations. So in the distance past when life expectancy was like 40 and people normally had kids when they were like 14 generations were short. Now with people living till 80 and having kids in their 30's, the generations are longer... would this mean that by default we would be less effected by the Darwin's principle? Again expand that out a couple hundred years from now, and things start to get interesting. We start to stagnate, change slower over time, but that change is generally negative. So unless selective breeding and/or we gain the technology and the will to genetically alter our offspring, we are headed down a downward spiral abet a slow one. (Tho I suppose we could become cyborgs of a sort replacing defective parts, however this would seem a negative sum system, however who knows what technology will bring)

    Not to even mention:

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/ :)

  48. Condoms On Plaes! by fugue · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is hardly news. It's been obvious for many years. But it's interesting to see someone famous talking about it.

    It's still not quite right--there are selective pressures. For example, in 1000 years the genes associated with the ability to use contraceptives will have been purged from the population. For example, all of humanity might have an innate terror of taking a pill every day. And then they'll release the new horror movie, "Condoms On Planes"!

    --
    "The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place."