Slashdot Mirror
Report Indicates Widespread H-1B Visa Fraud
Vrst1013 notes a Business Week account of a government report examining fraud in the H-1B program. The US Citizenship and Immigration Services just released a report to members of the Senate Judiciary Committee examining issues with fraud and technical violations within this program. Based on a sample size of 246 H-1B petitions, 13.4 percent showed fraud and 7.3 percent showed technical violations, for an overall violation rate of 20.7 percent. There was slso evidence of payment below the prevailing wage, offers of non-existent jobs, and fraudulent documentation. "'The report makes it clear that the H-1B program is rife with abuse and misuse,' says Ron Hira, [a professor] at the Rochester Institute of Technology ... However, both Presidential candidates, Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain, have said they support expanding the program."
I'm continually amazed at the H1B visa issue.
Took me 5 min's to come up with a reasonable solution to the issues.
Original Problem: Some companies need skilled employee's that are not available in the US.
Created problems: Many companies like hiring folks from elsewhere because even with associated costs of the visa and transportation it's still a huge cost savings over paying US wages for the same work.
Solution: Have a relatively unlimited pool of available H1B visa's. With the provision that anyone hired must be paid 110% of the prevailing US wage for the work.
That way if they really need skills not available they can get them but there is a real financial incentive to use local talent.
Ward
Ward
. Silence! Be thankful thy species is unpalatable! .
I'm shocked, just shocked. In fact, I'm so shocked that a team of immigrants will be needed to pick my lower jaw up from the floor(no americans are available, I checked, really.).
Seriously though. I'm not opposed to immigration in itself, after all, one of the things that America has consistently gained from is being able to attract skilled and/or motivated people from all over(and, I can't ethically get behind the "America is the land of opportunity for anybody who immigrated before date X, after date X, all immigrants are damn dirty foreigners" type arguments). What I am opposed to is horrid compromise structures that don't work all that well, and provide huge incentives for fraud. If we want immigration, let's reform the process by which people can apply for and obtain legal residency and, ideally, eventually citizenship. If we don't, then let's be straightforward about forbidding it. A bullshit half measure where corporations get to import quasi-indentured labor who are on a sorta-kinda-not-really track to naturalization is the worst of both worlds. All the stuff about immigration that makes nativist labor types nervous, without the benefits of attracting and naturalizing the best, brightest, and most motivated.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
People say there aren't enough skilled workers, but from what I can, there are too many people in the IT field. We posted for an opening and we had 40+ candidates in under a couple of hours. Many had little to no skills, but who's to say that I would get a better candidate from another country? Besides, if u keep hiring candidates from outside, then how will the non-experienced people that are in the US get the experience they need? We can't support the whole world by saying, come on down. I will get you a job because I don't want to pay the American worker so much money. Well, guess what, you can pay me 15K/yr, or 100K/yr. I still have to pay the same price for everday items that I NEED, forget what I WANT. So, how do I live on the poverty scale, when I went to school in hopes of making more money in the first place?
What reasonable justification does the US government have for denying foreigners the same opportunities that American citizens have?
Other countries also deny or restrict foreigners working within their borders. Why should the U.S. be any different? Even to work in Mexico, a U.S. worker has to obtain a work visa, even if only to work in the Mexican office of a U.S. owned company that happens to be a few hundred yards over the border for one day.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I was going to mod you up, but I'll comment instead so people understand.
A big part of the problem with the H1B program is that the visas are tied to one employer. A foreigner comes over to work, finds out the job is crappy, and is stuck in the job. She can't find a better job with better pay or better hours. She either works to the end of the visa, or goes back to her country early.
A big improvement to the program would be to cut this tie. Employers would have to compete for H1B workers, just like they have to compete for American workers. This will raise the wages of H1B workers, which will make H1B workers *less* desirable over American workers.
There would be less H1Bs, and the ones that remained would be skilled workers whose skills are genuinely needed.
In summary, better treatment for H1B workers will lead to better wages and more jobs for American workers.
If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
As an American IT worker, I've never worried about the H-1B worker. Why? Because I'm a well rounded IT worker who has done most if not all of it. I'm not a 10 out 10 on every technology but I have a lot of 7's and 8's and I know more then most about networking, the internet and enterprise computing. I read, I study and I work hard, plus I can communicate effectively and I can lead a team. I'm no better then any other geek or nerd, I just try harder and recognize that what I do for a living is looked at as a cost center in most organizations.
There's no magic here. If you do a good job, communicate well, and are well rounded you should never have to worry about a job. H-1B visa workers are not a threat, they just raise the bar a little bit on native American workers. Ultimately if you are the most valuable choice for a company they will pick you. It's not always about the cheapest laborer.
(Posted as AC because I don't want this to be a debate about me personally, rather the situation.)
I'm polite, friendly and articulate. I'm smart. I come pre-educated (at great expense to myself, my parents, and the taxpayers of my Commonwealth country). I have a university degree in computing and over 5 years of subsequent professional computing/IT work experience, not to mention all the tech work I did while studying. And I've decided for various reasons that I would like to take my earning opportunity and work in the United States.
I would be looking at jobs paying a minimum of $80,000, almost all of which I would put back into the US economy. Because I'm educated and highly employable, I would not be a burden on the social security system. I'll rent an apartment and thus will not be needing a sub-prime mortgage. I will be boosting your economy and creating jobs to help you employ more US citizens, so you can't even argue "I'm taking the job of an American".
All the stereotypes seem sadly true - if I was Mexican, I'd be welcome to come and clean your hotels; if I was from some war-torn country, I might be welcome as a refugee.
I want to pay taxes in your country. Why shouldn't the US be falling over itself to grant me a work permit? Why can't I have a H-1B visa, please?
The H1-B system works just fine as a transition for entry level employees that studies in the US. Practical training visas don't cover enough time to handle the long initial green card period, so they get extended into H1-Bs, which will let them continue to work for you.
Picking a random, experienced H1-B straight from India, China or Europe is no different than trying to hire an experienced programmer: It's very difficult to find a good programmer, no matter what. You really need to use references, have very good interviewing skills, or just luck out.
Good. It's nice to hear there is a fly in that ointment.
If this country is to build up the number of technical people, it needs to pay them. Companies like Microsoft complain there aren't enough skilled people but by abusing the H1B program, they depress the pay scale, they take jobs away from qualified (but more expensive) Americans, etc.
And with a 20% fraud rate, the H1B program needs an overhaul.
Companies are merely exploiting this. Take away the inequality, and they will have no situation to exploit. I am not afraid to compete for jobs on a level playing field. I've asked a few H1Bs whether they were being exploited, and they all said no. But I suppose that's about the same as asking a prostitute whether she willingly chose her line of work. On the other hand, that's a kind of can't win question of the "does this dress make me look fat?" sort.
The first inequality is the terms of H1B employment. If we let people into the US in such a way that companies have no leverage over them, that would stop the abuse. End this requirement that they have to leave almost immediately if they lose their job, and don't make them jump through a bunch of hoops to change jobs.
The second inequality is the miserable conditions in their home countries that gives teeth to the threat to fire them and send them home. No quick fix for that one. Will be years before wages and conditions have equalized sufficiently throughout the world.
Oh, and you all missed another way to cheat the system. Classify a job as something cheaper than what it really is. Hire the H1Bs for development work, but classify them as testers or some such.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Nice...
Can you prove to me where Microsoft is not paying fairly?
Because otherwise you are talking slander! And that is illegal.
Read the article and the real problem is that the H1B program is being abused because a few outsourcing companies that are taking the lions share of visas.
This is the problem and that needs to be fixed.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
There is a scam going on here. I kid you not on this one. A manager told me this.
They used to give quizzes to test the abilities of the individuals. Well what happened is that they took note of the questions asked. This was then added to some sort of database that could be retrieved at a moments notice.
The manager said that initially they did not find clients, but then they did. Then the manager realized what happened.
When I interview people I never do it with a cookie cutter approach. What I do is ask some random technical questions and then start drilling on those. It is always different.
My interviews are
1) Very difficult because what I want for you to say is, "I don't know this, but if I had to guess it would be x" Once you say that then we can start working through code and examples since I am getting you to think on the spot.
2) How sure you are about yourself. I very often ask, "are you sure about this?" Even if they are right. I want to see how arrogant you are and if you are willing to apply a judgment call.
As one interviewee said, "your interview is tricky because to pass you need to admit that you don't know certain things. Some companies that I interviewed look at that as weakness. But you didn't hold it against me." We hired this guy... His knowledge was ok, but his on the spot thinking was actually pretty good.
If you are level headed and solid in your materials you will pass with flying colors. And because I put people under stress very often they will say things that they in hindsight should not have.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
It's not slander. It's libel if anything. And it's opinion so it's not that either
A degree in engineering is good. Engineering as a practice doesn't change a great deal -- technologies and techniques change and improve, but the basics will always apply. The same cannot be said of IT, however. It is a very moving target and closely linked to the technology and even vendor of choice. The basics of computer systems and principles are arguably the same, but people aren't taught that and aren't learning that... even in degree programs.
There is more to being a doctor or a lawyer or even an engineer than merely getting a degree. There are also professional associations and boards regulating their practices and credentials. So far, IT has managed without such professional structure, but the abuses we see are just screaming for it. The workplace is still teeming with people who responded to TV commercials promising "hot careers in technology."
Ultimately, aptitude, skill and talent need to become more measurable. There are too many people out there trying to make IT workers into assembly-line workers... but then again, I just called the classification "IT workers" and not "IT professionals" didn't I? Perhaps it could all start with names/titles.
Pack it up and go home, fanboy.
Ultimately, aptitude, skill and talent need to become more measurable. There are too many people out there trying to make IT workers into assembly-line workers... but then again, I just called the classification "IT workers" and not "IT professionals" didn't I? Perhaps it could all start with names/titles.
IT workers / professionals covers such a large field.
Some of it will become as lowly as factory work. Factory work was once well paid too but there's less risk involved and nearly anyone can do it.
As some aspects of computing become easier and open it up to more people then wages have to drop. It's pure supply and demand and the unfortunate fact is that so many companies rely on computers that the only way to satisfy every business' needs is to train more people.
Why are you upset about the difficult H-1B to immigrant policy? H-1B is not an immigration visa nor is it a path to citizenship. There are other programs for that. You enrolled in a non-immigrant program that wasn't designed to be a foothold for citizenship and now are complaining that the path to citizenship is difficult?
If the skilled worker program needs to be changed, then so be it. But at the moment, it was designed as a time-limited work visa and isn't advertised by the government as a way to attain citizenship. If your employer indicated otherwise, then you were duped. If you hoped otherwise, then it's unfortunate for you. It doesn't mean you should be indignant about it.
That's actually the opposite of what many of us want. How about: just stop letting people immigrate into the U.S. as glorified indentured servants.
I've said it before: I'd love to have open borders for technical talent. I'm willing to compete with anyone in the world on technical ability. And, if they're better than me I guess I'll just have a chance to work for them when they start their own companies.
However, I don't want to take part in a race to the bottom of wages and benefits. And, that's what H1-B and similar programs are designed to do.
Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
Microsoft is a software company which has complained about the lack of skilled people. They also pay crap wages. However, the they is ambiguous as to whether or not it includes Microsoft or just Companies like them who are abusing the H1B program.
PS: If you a highly talented coder working 50hours a week and making under 140k your working for peanuts.
Mandatory unpaid overtime? What, don't you work in IT? It doesn't matter where you are in the world, everyone has mandatory unpaid overtime when you are salaried.
I've probably worked the equiv of 2 jobs since graduating college some 20 years ago. I'm a USA citizen, born here. For about a year, I did work 2 jobs at the same company to "get ahead." 8 hours during the day, I wrote GN&C software. 8 hours at night, I worked on government proposals, unpaid. I did get recognition ... 3x "$100 dinner out" checks over 5 years. I feel good about that, not.
Then I moved to a government contract that required 10 hours of free overtime per person. Hummm. Yes, that is correct, the government contract required that we worked the same more more free that the rest of the company workers did without a contract. On that contract, the government agency recognized my teams' excellent work with $2k each for "significant value to the advancement of aerospace technology." That's 3 years gone. I have the certificate up in my office.
Then I moved to an internet start up in the mid-1990s - nuff said? 80+ hours per week there. Crazy travel - like 12 hours notice before getting on a plane to Tokyo, Israel, Korea. Stock options. Er in pay off the car amounts ($15k) when we were bought out. No bonuses. 1 team building trip to Cancun for fun - 17 of us. THAT was fun, until we all got sick from ice in our drinks the last day and for about a month after.
I like the idea of requiring overpayment for H1B workers. 110% isn't enough - too close to call with the real wage. Rather, set the wage to the highest wage in the USA (NYC?) + 10% more. That would force more work to be performed off shore, which helps my current "howto offshore" consulting business.